Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 1936

Vol. 60 No. 4

Conditions of Employment Bill, 1935. - Weights and Measures Bill, 1936.—Second Stage.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill is introduced for the purpose of authorising the use of certain standards in the custody of the Department of Industry and Commerce for the purpose of comparing and verifying other standards in the possession of inspectors of weights and measures by which, in turn, the accuracy of weights and measures used by traders, can be tested. Weights and measures inspectors have in their possession two sets of standards of weights and measures which are termed respectively, the local standards and the working standards. The working standards are used locally for the purpose of periodically testing the weights and measures and weighing and measuring instruments used in connection with the sale of commodities, and the accuracy of these working standards is insured by a comparison periodically with the local standards which are kept by the inspectors and which are used only for the purpose of reference and comparison. Before the establishment of Saorstát Eireann, the accuracy of these standards was tested by comparison with standards in the possession of the Board of Trade, and this Bill is to provide that the accuracy of standards will be verified by periodical comparision with the standards in the Department of Industry and Commerce.

The comparison of standards, being a matter which requires great accuracy and involving examination of a considerable number of articles which are submitted to the headquarters of the Department from stations throughout the country, must necessarily be a very slow process and, accordingly, it is proposed to allow for this comparison a period of two years from the passing of the Act so as to ensure that all such standards must be duly verified and the necessary adjustments and repairs, if required, carried out. The Bill further provides that any comparisons, which have hitherto been made for the purposes of the Weights and Measures Acts of 1878 to 1928, shall be deemed to be valid and effective. I may say that it is the intention to introduce proposals for legislation to codify and amend the existing Weights and Measures Acts, but the preparation of these proposals will take some time. It will be an involved and very technical type of Bill and it is desired to have this Bill enacted forthwith on that account as a temporary measure so as to ensure that the validity of the standards in use will be secured.

Mr. Dillon

I find it difficult to gather from the Minister's statement why exactly this Bill is brought in at the present time. The existing standards, I take it, are the standards surviving from the time when all standards were compared with those in London. It is now suggested that there should be a primary standard in Dublin. That seems to me to be a very natural arrangement. Two thoughts have occured to me in that connection. One is that I should imagine that the whole question of our system of measurements would have been considered very carefully by the Government before they resolved to set up a Dublin standard. The Minister has given no indication as to whether the Government has considered the general question of whether we should adhere to the traditional British mode of measurement or whether we should adopt the metric system of measurement. One would imagine that that question would come up for consideration when the question of transferring the standard of measurements from London to Dublin was being decided upon. However, perhaps it is the intention of the Government, when this more complicated Bill, to which the Minister has referred, is being introduced, to review the whole question of our measurements and to give reasons for their decision.

Might I suggest to the Minister that, if a permanent Bill for the purpose of codifying this whole question of standards is contemplated, it might be no harm if a body of Irish scientists were now to meet a body of business men and such other bodies of men as might be interested in the matter, in order to exchange views as to whether we should adopt the old Irish standard of measurement, the current British standard of measurement, or the current metric standard. The second question that presents itself to my mind is that the Schedule of the Bill describes the various standards, and it would appear that the Schedule of the Bill consists entirely of standards made by Messrs. Avery and one or two other British scale makers, which have been compared with the British standards and certified by the British Board of Trade as corresponding with the original standards in London. If that is so, I do not quite understand what the purpose of this Bill is at all, because, in fact, all our standards are going to draw their authenticity from the hallmark of the London standard office, or whatever is the name of the office which confers the mark of genuineness on a measure of any kind. Not being a scientist or a mathematician, I do not really know what was the method which ruled standards in England, but I suppose it was done by some council of mathematicians who arrived by calculation at what these standards were. If we propose now to set up similar standards in this country, I presume that a more appropriate course for us to pursue would be to ask a group of Irish scientists to prepare a body of standards which would be for Saorstát Eireann what the British standards are for Great Britain. That would seem to me to be a more rational thing to do than to ask a few British scale makers to get the British Board of Trade approval for certain standard measures, bring them over here, and schedule them in a Bill as the standard measurements for Saorstát Eireann. I should like to know if the Minister has looked into this question with regard to finding out what was the procedure in Great Britain when the standards were arrived at and also to finding out whether it was not possible to adopt a similar procedure here and to see that the standards here would be Saorstát scientific standards.

Mr. Lemass

There are three kinds of standards, the working standards, the local standards and the primary standards. The working standards are compared with the local standards and the local standards had to be compared, in order to ensure accuracy, with the Board of Trade standards in London. We propose to substitute here certain standards that we have here in Dublin and which are described in the Bill.

Mr. Dillon

And which carry the British Board of Trade mark.

Mr. Lemass

They are standards which we are satisfied are suitable in all respects and, in fact, they have been compared with Board of Trade standards. However, the situation by which local standards either had to continue to be compared with Board of Trade standards in London or not compared at all was unsatisfactory, and therefore it is desirable that, in order to ensure that there will be no ambiguity about the situation, these new primary standards should be set up here. As I said already, the question of a general Weights and Measures Act is under consideration and it is in connection with that Act that any change in the system of weights and measures can be considered. It will be some time, however, before that Bill can be produced. The existing weights and measures code is not very suitable to conditions in this country and a considerable recasting of the code will be necessary, I think. Until that legislation can be prepared, however, quite apart from the nature of the legislation, it is not easy under present circumstances to get time to concentrate upon the problems that are involved, but even if decisions upon the various questions had been made, the actual framing of the legislation would take a long time, and it is desirable to have this Bill so as to be able to regulate the position until the general measure can be produced. I cannot say at what time that will be, but I can say that work is being done on it already.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister will bear in mind the suggestion that some kind of commission consisting of representatives of business interests and scientists should be invited to consider the general question of the various systems before a permanent measure is introduced.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 19th February.