There is no use in saying that the records show that certain things are true and telling us if we have any complaints to make them. When we have complaints the Minister tells us we are wrong. He cannot have it both ways. The proper place to make complaints is in Dáil Eireann, and it gets nowhere for the Minister to tell us we are wrong. I told the Minister that of the calls I have made between the City of Dublin and County Roscommon in the last 12 months, not more than 2 per cent. got through in 15 minutes. The Minister can find out my telephone numbers in the City of Dublin and in Ballaghadereen and he can proceed to check complaints. That is the plain fact. The difference between the Minister and myself is that I have personal knowledge of making trunk calls from rural Ireland, frequently four or five times in the week, and to get a trunk call over a distance of 100 miles in 15 minutes is practically unknown in my experience, except between 7.30 and 8 o'clock in the evening. If he has received information of any other character, then I say that the high officials of his Department are not getting full and frank disclosures from the sub-postmasters, and that further investigations should be made. If he is going to give the cheap rates a real chance in rural Ireland he ought to extend the use of the telephone at least until 11 o'clock at night. He is afraid of 10 o'clock. I would prefer midnight, but if he makes it 11 o'clock I will accept that. I ask him to seek sanction for an experimental period of one year until 11 o'clock, having forewarned the House that if a satisfactory increase is not evident at the end of the year, he will be obliged to go back to 10 o'clock. I have not the slightest doubt that if he extends it up to 11 o'clock at night, he will provide a really comprehensive service, sufficient for all ordinary needs and for everything else except emergency calls for which the Civic Guard barrack is available. The third point is that while I recognise he cannot aspire to giving us as satisfactory a rural service as is available in the U.S.A. or Great Britain, I think he could do something now that would cover the emergencies of every rural area—that is, stipulate that every Civic Guard barrack must have a telephone. If he makes that stipulation, he will in certain cases have to make uneconomic extensions. I think he ought to do that in the same way as an uneconomic water supply or sewerage scheme is undertaken. The telephone, under modern conditions, is an essential part of rural equipment, bearing in mind that 40 years ago doctors and emergency services were always kept within a horse-drive distance of any centre from which they might be called. To-day, many of these services are designed on a motor basis and it may be quite impossible to reach the service you want without a very long journey. For instance, doctors who used to live in the centre of their dispensary districts now live in the neighbouring town. They make the case—with a great deal of force, I think—that they are on the telephone there and that they could not be on the telephone if they were living in a rural area. They point out that a telephone call from a Civic Guard barrack will bring them out in a motor car more quickly than if they were living two or three miles out in the country and a messenger had to cycle to their houses. Unless there is a telephone in every Civic Guard barrack, that situation will not be met. Even if a telephone be installed in every Civic Guard barrack, we shall not have reached perfection. However, I hope the infection from which the President is suffering with regard to Seanads has not spread to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in regard to telephones. In this imperfect life, we cannot hope for perfection. We cannot get a perfect Seanad. Neither can we get a perfect telephone system. The best we can hope for is to bring it as near perfection as the means at our disposal permits. If we had a telephone in every Civic Guard barrack now, we should have gone a long way towards meeting all the legitimate claims that can be made on the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in this regard, at all events.
Telephone Capital Bill, 1936—Committee.
Mr. Boland
We cannot settle this dispute as regards time. I suppose I have to accept Deputy Dillon's word but that looks like turning down the word of the people from whom I have my information. But I suppose I cannot have it both ways. When we have new trunks, I do not think we shall have any more disputes as to the time occupied in getting through trunk calls. As regards the Civic Guard barracks, I think most of them are equipped with telephones but a number of barracks in the country have not had telephones installed yet. As regards Deputy Morrissey's complaint, I am thinking of getting two maps hung up in a convenient place to show the telephone position in 1922 and the telephone position to-day. That will show Deputy Morrissey the advance made in the last 15 years. There has been an extraordinary change in that period and the country is almost entirely covered by the telephone. There are isolated spots uncovered but it is hardly fair to expect the Post Office which, as I have frequently pointed out, has to be run on commercial lines, to supply telephones to all Civic Guard barracks.
As Acting-Minister for Justice, I should have an interest in that matter, too. It is more a question for the Department of Justice than for the Post Office. The Post Office is under very stringent regulations so far as these matters are concerned. They are not allowed to put telephones into places where they will not pay. Any Civic Guard station which is prepared to pay the cost of a telephone will get it but the Post Office has to work on that basis. It would be better to raise that question on some other Bill than this. I agree that, as soon as possible, the Government should try to make it possible for a telephone to be installed in every doctor's house and in every Civic Guard barracks. That, however, will cost money and we have to get authority for expenditure on these things. I cannot give any promise in connection with that matter now.
Would the Minister be prepared to withdraw his threat as regards the maps if I agreed to accept his word?
Mr. Boland
The maps will show, not alone what we have done, but what has been done since the Free State was established. It would be interesting for Deputies to see that. As regards the 11 o'clock suggestion, I think we shall proceed the other way and, if it is shown that there is a big demand up to 10 o'clock, I shall see what can be done as regards an extension to 11 o'clock. I think that is the fairest way to deal with the matter. We shall, I expect, get authority up to 10 o'clock but I shall not ask for authority beyond 10 o'clock at present. If the telephone is fully availed of up to 10 o'clock, I shall have some justification for approaching the Department of Finance for an extension up to 11 o'clock. If the extension to 11 o'clock works out satisfactorily, we can arrange then to go on to midnight.
The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs may have a certain delicacy in facing the Minister for Finance but he cannot have any delicacy in facing himself. I hope that, in a few months, we shall have the pleasure of seeing Deputy Ruttledge restored to his customary place. Meanwhile, the Minister, in his capacity as Minister for Justice, might address himself, demanding that the telephone be extended to Civic Guard barracks. He might then remonstrate vigorously with himself as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and explain that the thing could not be considered. Then he could come together in both capacities and, thus encouraged, go to the presence of the Minister for Finance to ask for the necessary money. If—if I may be familiar—two Jerry Bolands cannot overwhelm the Minister for Finance, then I do not know what the country is coming to.
Mr. Boland
He might not feel like doing it.
Is the Minister aware of the abnormal delay which occurs in installing telephones in the city? The Minister does not believe Deputy Dillon's stories about the delay in getting certain trunk calls through but I wonder if he would investigate the delay in the installation of telephones in the City of Dublin. It is not a normal delay. People who desire to instal a telephone are given a date on which it will probably be installed only to find that the date passes and that another date is fixed. I do not know whether the Department is following the characteristic of the Minister in fixing a date, passing it, fixing a new date and then passing that date. But that does happen in connection with the installation of telephones in the city. It is all due to the failure of the Minister to provide sufficient staff. The Minister complains of the difficulty of getting telephones introduced in other areas. Here, in the City of Dublin, people are anxious to instal telephones but the Minister will not employ sufficient staff to enable them to do so. The fitting staff in connection with telephone installation is altogether inadequate. While the Minister complains that he cannot get people to instal telephones in the rural areas, here, within the shadow of headquarters, people anxious to instal telephones cannot have them installed and all because the Minister will not employ sufficient fitting staff. A considerable number of the staff of the engineering department of the Post Office were paid off some time ago. Numbers of them are still unemployed and the Minister should make some effort to utilise their skilled craftsmanship for the satisfaction of the public demand for telephones. That is a matter over which the Minister's Department has absolute control. All that is needed is that the Department should set about the matter in an efficient way. Instead of that, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs tests the patience of the public who are waiting for telephones and refuses to adopt the obvious remedy of employing more staff. There might be some streak of genuineness in the Minister's complaint that it is difficult to get the public to instal telephones if we could be assured that the Minister, having a staff available to instal telephones, would do so. I think the Minister will find from his own Department that in the case of a number of applications made six weeks ago in the City of Dublin the telephones are not yet installed. I think his Department will possibly tell him that they are not likely to be installed for another six weeks or possibly for a longer period. The Minister might be able to get statistics in that connection and they would be extremely interesting. I had an experience recently in that connection in which it was suggested that the telephone might not be installed for a period of six or seven weeks and even then there was a likelihood of the installation being further postponed. I think a delay like that is inexcusable. The Minister should have no difficulty in augmenting his existing staff so as to meet the public demand for the installation of telephones as quickly as possible.
Mr. Boland
Could we have the Report Stage now?
I have no objection if the Minister wants it.
Mr. Boland
We should like to have all the stages now.
Are we sitting on Friday?
So I understand.
Will it suit the Minister's convenience if we give him the Final Stage on Friday?
Mr. Boland
It will.