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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Jun 1936

Vol. 62 No. 18

Committee on Finance. - Vote 32—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy McGilligan.)

Last night I said that there were a few other items to which I wished to refer before concluding. I want to deal with the suggestion that there has been an abnormal increase of crime in this country. That suggestion has been made in the House and, quite recently, it was made outside and got very wide publicity. It is only right that attention should be drawn to what the position really is. The fact is that the crime figures for last year show a decided improvement on the figures for the preceding year and compare very favourably with the figures for the preceding five years. Thus, for the year 1935, the total number of cases of indictable crime known to the police was 6,691, as compared with 7,229 for the previous year, and an average of 6,728 for the four years 1931-1934. There was, in the year 1935, a marked reduction in the number of serious crimes of violence against the person—i.e., murder, attempts to murder, wounding and like offences—the total for the year 1935 being 52, as against 109 for the preceding year and 124 in the year 1931. The cases of manslaughter show an increase, due to an increased number of fatal traffic accidents, the figure for 1935 being 53, as against 49 for the previous year and an average of 39 for the four preceding years. The figures for sexual crime do not provide any justification for the suggestion sometimes made that this type of crime is on the increase. During the year 1935 the number of cases of indecent assaults on females was 58, as compared with 95 in the previous year and 93 in the year 1931. The number of cases of infanticide, abandoning infants and concealment of birth was 56, as compared with 52 the previous year and 63 in the year 1931. The figures for burglary and housebreaking show an increase, the total for 1935 being 965, as against an average of 882 for the preceding four years. On the other hand, the number of cases of robbery, and assaults with intent to rob, shows a decided decrease, the figure for last year being 35, as compared with an average of 57 for the four preceding years. The number of cases of arson last year was 92, as compared with an average of 105 for the four preceding years. Cases of embezzlement and fraud showed a substantial decline last year, the total being 414, as against an average of 567 for the four preceding years. I do not propose to go further into details in this matter but, from the information available to me, I can assure the House that there is no justification for reckless and extravagant allegations of an increase of crime in this country.

Due to the reorganisation of the detective department, the police claim that the percentage of detections in proportion to the total of offences actually committed is higher than it has ever been before. The figure given by the police is 79 per cent. That figure may not be altogether accurate but it comes close to the point of accuracy. That should dispose of some of the wild talk we had in that connection.

Deputy Costello referred to the abnormal increase in the amount of criminal work being done in the courts. There has not been any abnormal increase. There has been an increase, but nothing like the increase suggested. Deputy Costello referred to an increase of 1,000 per cent. Of course, he did not mean that but, making due allowance for exaggeration, he went too far. I have the records here for 11 years and I shall ask the House to bear with me while I read them, because I should like to have the matter made clear. In the year 1925, the total number of days on which the Central Criminal Court and the Circuit Criminal Court sat in Dublin was 130; in 1926, 152; 1927, 139; 1928, 144; 1929, 132; 1930, 131; 1931, 114; 1932, 125; 1933, 163; 1934, 157; 1935, 162. Although there has been an increase, the increase has not been at all as great as was suggested.

The last point with which I wish to deal—I am trying to answer the important question raised in the debate—is that dealing with citizenship. Deputy Costello raised that question and said he saw interesting names appearing in Iris Oifigiúil. He spoke about new patents and he wanted to know how we were administering the Citizenship Act. The procedure is that applicants for certificates are required to furnish detailed information regarding their previous history. Their statements are verified through the police, who also report on the general character and reputation of the applicants. References from three Saorstát citizens are required in each case. Notice is then given in Iris Oifigiúil of the fact that the application has been made and an opportunity is afforded to any person who knows of reasons why the application should not be granted to make representations. It is only when it has been definitely established that the applicant is a fit and proper person that the certificate issues. Seventeen of these certificates have so far been granted. Deputy Costello mentioned a very interesting list of these cases. It is presumed that he is calling attention to the foreign name of the applicants. It is only to be expected that the applicants will have foreign names. Citizens of the Saorstát do not need certificates of naturalisation. As regards the future it is not possible to say how many certificates will be granted. At present there are 39 cases under consideration. The general policy is, so far as practicable, to secure that no person will be naturalised as a citizen of Saorstát Eireann unless it is established that he will be an asset to this country. In all there were 78 applicants received; of these 17 were granted, 22 were refused and there are 39 still under consideration.

There is one question I would like to put to the acting Minister for Justice. I know he referred yesterday to complaints with regard to the expert on ballistics who is produced by his Department in cases of prosecutions in the courts. Some confusion arose on that matter. Comdt. Stapleton is, I understand, the ballistics expert who is generally employed by the Attorney-General in cases of prosecutions. So far as we are concerned, we are of opinion that he is as capable an expert as could be employed, but an adverse comment was made from this side, and I wish to repeat it, with regard to the employment of a member of the Civic Guard force who, on his first appearance, admitted that he had no more than six months' specialised training——

Mr. Boland

I would like to remind the Chair that I read out a letter in relation to that particular officer in connection with a prosecution in which objection was taken to him by Deputy McGilligan who was acting as counsel in the case. But the evidence to which Deputy McGilligan objected was verified afterwards by Comdt. Stapleton. I wish to remind the House that the court highly commended this expert on his evidence. I may as well repeat now what I said last night that, though the Opposition have denied that they had tried to cast an aspersion on any individual expert, still, the impression was created by Deputy McGilligan that the experts as a whole were a sorry lot. Now the whole is made up of its parts and if the parts are all right the whole should be right. It should be one of the axioms of Euclid, if it is not, that if the parts are all right the whole must be right.

The Minister asked me to give way to him and I did.

It was the Minister who gave way to the Deputy.

No; the Minister had concluded and I asked leave of the Chair to ask a question arising out of the Minister's statement. On the first occasion when this officer appeared before the courts of this country, expert evidence was tendered that a competent ballistic expert would require a period of training of from five to ten years; therefore, a person who claimed only six months' training as an expert could not properly be described as a ballistic expert or a person upon whose evidence the court could place much dependence.

Mr. Boland

I fully explained that matter yesterday and I have repeated that on the occasion to which exception was taken to the evidence of this particular officer by Deputy McGilligan acting as counsel, Commandant Stapleton confirmed his evidence. I have here a letter from the judge in the Ball case in which he highly complimented this expert on the evidence he gave in that case. I do not need to read the letter which I have here in my hand. The judge complimented him and the other officers on the way they conducted the Ball case. The action of the detective on that occasion was held up to complete ridicule by Deputy McGilligan. But here we have a person who ought to have more experience of these things and on whose word more reliance can be placed, that is the judge who tried the case and that judge thought fit to compliment this officer and the others on the excellent manner in which they worked up the details of the case.

There is no occasion at all to get heated over the matter.

Mr. Boland

I am not getting heated. That is my way of emphasising what I am saying.

The Minister will have an opportunity of looking into this matter before the Gárda Síochána Estimate is taken. The matter to which I wish to draw his attention in the meantime is to ascertain whether in the case of an officer of this kind six months is an adequate period of training for a ballistic expert before the Attorney-Genaral produces that person to give expert evidence bearing on the guilt or innocence of the person in the dock. It may be that the acting Minister does not want to express an opinion on that matter at the moment, but I ask him to consult his expert advisers on the question.

Mr. Boland

The position is simply this, that you may have some people being trained for this work for ten years and they would not be worth tuppence, while another man would be a qualified expert in six months.

Question—"That the Estimate be referred back for consideration"—put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 25; Níil, 54.

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Good, John.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Wall, Nicholas.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Doyle and Bennett; Níl: Deputies Little and Smith.
Question declared lost.
Vote put and declared carried.
Barr
Roinn