Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Jul 1936

Vol. 63 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Registration of Births and Deaths Bill, 1936—Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The proposed Bill is in fulfilment of the hope which I expressed when replying to Deputy Rowlette in April, 1935, during the discussion on the Vote for the General Register Office, and has for its object the increasing of the fees of registrars to a point more commensurate with the amount of work entailed in the registration of births and deaths.

Whilst in all except some 12 cases the registrar of births and deaths is also the registrar of Catholic marriages, the two posts are governed by separate Acts—the Births and Deaths Registration Act of April, 1863, and the Registration of Marriages Act passed in July of the same year, and for this reason it has been deemed advisable that the present proposals should take the form of two short Bills —one, the Bill now before the House, and the other the Registration of Marriages Bill, 1936, which has also been introduced.

The Births and Deaths Registration Act of April, 1863, was framed on the understanding that the best method of securing complete registration of births and deaths would be to ally it with the dispensary medical service, and I may say that experience since has not pointed to any better method. The dispensary medical officers were to be the registrars, provided they were willing to discharge the duties. In practically every case the medical officer accepted the new post. There has not been the same general acceptance by medical officers appointed in recent years, owing possibly to a growing feeling as to the inadequacy of the remuneration allowed for the work of registration.

Section 54 of the Act referred to lays down that the remuneration shall be at the rate of 1/- for each birth or death registered, and shall be paid out of the local rates. Births and deaths registered during the year 1935 totalled approximately 99,000, the resulting charge to local funds being about £4,950.

In framing any provision for increase of remuneration it was necessary to have regard to the importance of keeping the additional burden to the imposed on local funds within reasonable bounds. There are approximately 640 registrars of births and deaths, and their fees range from little over £1 in the smallest rural dispensary district to £150 in the largest Dublin district. These are, of course, exclusive of the fees payable by the public for certificates of births and deaths. The demand for such certificates in many rural districts is not such as to increase materially the registrar's total remuneration.

The proposal now before the House is to give each registrar of births and deaths an allowance calculated at the rate of £8 per annum in addition to the fees set out in the Act of 1863. The cost of this proposal to local funds would be about £5,120 per annum, or an average of about £170 for each board of health.

To meet a further complaint made by registrars, it has been thought advisable to transfer to the local boards of health the responsibility hitherto resting on them for the provision and maintenance of the notice board which is required to be exhibited outside each registration office. In many cases this will mean merely the addition to the dispensary notice board already provided of the name, etc. of the registrar and his assistant.

Dr. Rowlette

It would be ungracious not to recognise that the Minister has taken steps to fulfil the words of his promise made a year or so ago. In his history of this work in the past I think that he did not mention the date on which the fees which have been current up to the present were originally fixed. If I am correctly informed it is something like 80 years ago.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

1863.

Dr. Rowlette

Over 70 years ago. During the greater part of that time, there has been discontent continuously amongst those who filled this office at the inadequacy of the fees. Other forms of remuneration have increased, to some extent in proportion to the increased cost of living, but these fees have remained stationary, so that for many years past they have been negligible in the income of those who carried out the work. They almost suggest that the Government, not only the present Government but their predecessors for 50 years past, were contemptuous of the nature and importance of the work performed by the registrars. I am glad that the Minister recognises by the measure he has introduced that the work of the registrar is one of considerable importance and responsibility. Not everybody is competent to carry out the work; not everybody is sufficiently educated and competent to keep careful and well-written records. There is certainly nobody in the country districts in a position to keep as full records as the dispensary medical officer. There is nobody, probably not even the clergy, who is so likely to know of these events which have to be registered— births, deaths and, to a less extent, marriages.

But while congratulating the Minister on bringing in the measure, I am disappointed with the terms that he has embodied in it. I fear that those immediately concerned will also be discontented. He has shown that the average remuneration in the past was about £8 a year, or a little less, for each registrar, even when one remembers that in a few districts the remuneration was quite a considerable sum, I think he said £150, in districts, particularly in the City of Dublin, in which there is a large maternity hospital situated. These are quite exceptional cases. The ordinary remuneration was, I think, something in the nature of £8 per year. What the Minister proposes to do is to add a level sum of £8 a year to each of these, so that the cost to the local authorities will be a little more than doubled. I do not think that those concerned in the work will consider that doubling the remuneration by any means satisfies the justice of their claim. I regret that the Minister has not gone further to show recognition, on the part of the Government, of the importance and responsibility of this work.

I do not know whether it is too late for the Minister to reconsider the question of this remuneration and to make it more adequate to the importance of the work. I would point out to him that the number of acts for registration does not necessarily measure the amount of work which each registrar has to perform. There is a certain amount of clerical work to be added to that in the way of making periodical returns, work which has to be done even if only one or two births or deaths are registered during the period. Nearly as much clerical work has to be done in such a case as if the registrar had registered a great many births for which the fees would have been large. For quite a small amount of fees, often amounting to only a few shillings, the registrar may have to do a large amount of clerical work in addition to the act of registration in the register itself. I hope that the Minister will consider the matter further.

The Minister would give much greater satisfaction to those concerned if, before bringing in a measure under which he proposed to allow certain fees or remuneration, he had some consultations with the representatives of those concerned, so as to get their views as to what would be reasonable remuneration. I do not suggest that he should be bound by their views, but I think that if what I suggest were done it would lead to more harmonious working. It would be likely to give greater satisfaction, and to lead to a happy and contented service if the Minister had closer contact with those concerned whose interests are bound up with a measure such as this. I am sorry that the Minister did not see fit to discuss this measure in some detail with the representatives of those concerned before bringing it in. I know that claims have been made for increased remuneration for this work, and, therefore, I am sorry that the Minister did not see fit before introducing the measure to discuss its provisions with those who, from personal experience, could make him acquainted with the amount of work that has to be done, as well as to enable them to represent their views as to what would be reasonable remuneration. In that way a bargain might have been made which probably would be a satisfactory one both to the local authorities and to the registrars concerned.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I agree with Deputy Rowlette's remarks about the apparent smallness of the increase, but, proportionately, it is not so small. It is a very considerable increase on what the registrars were receiving according to statute up to the present, and from that point of view, looking at the proportionate amount of the increase, I think it is a move in the right direction. I also agree with Deputy Rowlette that the work performed by these registrars is certainly of very great importance to the State. The position that they hold is a responsible one, and up to the present the work has been well done by the dispensary medical officers who, in about 90 per cent. of the cases, are the registrars all over the country. The amount that is paid to the registrar is small, and the increased amount that will be paid when this Bill goes through will be small in itself but, in many cases, I think I might say in a great many cases, the fact of being the registrar of births, deaths and marriages means a considerable increase of income to the holders of these positions, because there are certificates of one kind or another called for in the ordinary course of life arising out of insurance, etc. The registrars have to be paid for these certificates, so that the remuneration they receive is not confined to the amount that is paid to them in this way by way of salary by the board of health.

Undoubtedly, in rural districts where you have a scattered population the remuneration is not very great, but neither is the extra work that is put upon the registrar very great either. In the larger urban areas there are some registrars who derive a very considerable amount of income from the fact of being registrars. Another fact, I think, that he might bear in mind is that the salaries of dispensary medical officers who are registrars in so many cases have been increased, generally speaking, in the last few years all over the country, so that at any rate from Deputy Rowlette's point of view the tendency in the last few years has been in the direction of meeting, to some extent, the views of medical men that the remuneration for the work they did was not adequate. I am sure that, as time goes on and if their work increases, the Dáil will, at all events, be prepared to take into consideration any claims that they put forward.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 21st July.