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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Nov 1937

Vol. 69 No. 7

Presidential Seal Bill, 1937—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be read a Second Time. It is a Bill of a more or less formal character. Its purpose is to provide a seal for the President, and to arrange for the use of that seal, its authentication and its acceptance in evidence. It is really a Committee Stage Bill, and, perhaps, the best thing I can do is to take the sections in their order.

The first section says that this Act shall come into operation immediately on the coming into operation of the new Constitution. Sub-section (1) of Section 2 sets forth that the Minister for Finance shall provide a seal. Sub-section (2) states:—

The presidential seal shall be officially and judicially noticed, and every order, commission, warrant, or other instrument sealed with the presidential seal shall, if such seal purports to be authenticated in accordance with this Act, be received in evidence without further proof, and, in particular, it shall not be necessary to prove any signature affixed to such instrument for the purpose of such authentication or to prove the office or authority of the person whose signature such signature purports to be.

The purpose there is that the presence of the seal on the document shall be prima facie evidence that it is what it purports to be. The presumption is to be that if a document, purporting to be a document sealed by the President or by the commissions which will act instead of the President on certain occasions, is presented, the presentation of the document will obviate the necessity of proof that it is what it purports to be. If somebody should come forward and say that the document is, as a matter of fact, a fraud, I take it that this provision would not prevent the court from investigating that contention and that the court could, in fact, examine that question and see whether the document was what it purported to be. This sub-section simply dispenses with the need of proof but it does not say that, if objection were raised, that objection could not be considered by the court. The next sub-section is of similar character. A signed and sealed document is itself to be regarded as proof that all the things that had to be done have been done and that all the advice in accordance with the Constitution that had to be taken has been taken before the sealing of the instrument. It places the burden of proof on anybody who holds the contrary.

In Section 3, you have three, more or less, similar sub-sections—one dealing with the case where the President is himself in office, one dealing with the preliminary period when the commission in accordance with Article 57 functions and the other dealing with the case where another commission of a slightly different character would operate. The theory all the time is that the seal is the seal of the office of President and not the seal of the individual who holds the office. Therefore, when the individual is not in the office the commissions which will exercise the functions of the office will use the seal. Deputies are aware that the intention is to have a secretary to the President who shall be a permanent official, similar to the head of a Department, and who will not change with a change in the person of the President. In the case of the commissions, two signatures and that of the secretary are necessary to authenticate the seal. In the case of the President, the President's signature alone is sufficient. The seal can only be applied on the direction of the commission when the commission is functioning or on the direction of the President himself when he is acting. Section 4 is, more or less, similar to Section 2 and provides

(1) Prima facie evidence of any order, commission, warrant or other instrument issued or made by the President or by a commission exercising the powers or performing the functions of the President may be given in all courts of justice and in all legal proceedings by the production of a copy of the Iris Oifigiúil purporting to contain such instrument or by the production of a copy of such instrument purporting to be printed under the superintendence or authority of and to be published by the Stationery Office.

That is a provision similar to that which we have in the case of other documents of a like character. Under sub-section 2 of Section 4, it is provided that the Documentary Evidence Act, 1925, which provides penalties for the misuse or misrepresentation of documents of this sort, will apply in like manner as it applies to the misuse of Ministerial and other documents at present. That is all the Bill contains and I ask the House to pass the Second Reading.

As explained by the President, the object of the Bill is to inform the House and the public of the implications which will follow upon the affixing of the seal rather than to provide the seal itself or regulate when it may be used. We are at a loss for knowledge on a few matters in regard to this seal. A seal was being operated for certain purposes in this country. Perhaps the President does not think that that seal suits the present time. We are rather peculiarly placed with regard to our internal and external affairs and we have chosen to make a line of demarcation between the two. We should like to know if the seal which the President proposes to place at the disposal of the Uachtarán will be affixed to, say, treaties made between this country and other countries. Will it be used in any way at all with regard to our external affairs, or will our external affairs be dealt with in that rather peculiar fashion laid down in the Dáil some time ago that, for the purposes of our external affairs, we would have the same king as other countries? We should all like to know whether, if we are going to have a national seal in the hands of Uachtarán na hEireann, it is going to be put on these documents I refer to, or is it to be used simply in relation to our internal affairs. So far as we have heard to-day, nothing has been mentioned except documents which relate to our internal affairs and the fixing of a seal to those is, of course, an absolute necessity. It is quite probable, too, that the new seal is required because of the change of name, but I should like the President to inform us on these other points because we are very peculiarly placed in this matter and we should like to know exactly where we are with regard to our seal.

There are some rather peculiar things in this connection on which, like Deputy Brennan, I should like some information as to how our external affairs are going to be dealt with. There does not seem to be here anything referred to except an order, commission, warrant, or other instrument. It is really a question of dealing with these matters so that they should be recognised in court. That seems to be the only thing this Bill contemplates. It does not give us any help as to the occasions on which the official seal will be used. I take it that when the President gives his consent to a statute to give it binding force, no seal will be required. His mere signature, I take it, will be sufficient, but I should like to know what are the principal cases in which this seal is going to be used, and must be used. The Bill leaves us very much in the dark.

Again, it is rather curiously worded.

The section says:—

"Immediately after the commencement of this Act, the Minister for Finance shall provide an official seal."

Suppose that official seal is lost. There does not seem to be any power in the Minister for Finance to give another official seal. I am sure the President remembers that rather interesting event in English history when King James II was leaving England. He brought the great seal with him and dropped it in the Thames. Chaos resulted because there was no great seal and nothing could be done. No executive Act at all could be done owing to the absence of the physical thing, the great seal. Here the President is given custody and control of the presidential seal. Suppose he loses it, or it becomes worn out. Is there power for him to get another one? The Minister for Finance has to provide a seal and it is to remain for all time. Further, I should like to know who is going to design the seal. Is that going to be left entirely to the Minister for Finance, or has it been designed already? Will we have an opportunity of seeing what the seal is going to be?

It is strange that I should be asked to deal with the Constitution on a measure of this sort. The complaint seems to be that I did not go into the Constitution and speak about the functions of the President and what they are.

What functions must be under seal?

That will be determined, I take it, by statute later. If, for instance, there is a statute in which provision is made that a seal should be affixed, this statute will then apply. For instance, there might be a provision in the Defence Forces Act that the commissions of officers would be sealed with the presidential seal. What we are doing here is making general provision that if in any case there is to be a seal affixed, when it is affixed, these provisions will apply to the instrument. We are providing a seal so that if there is any legislation which requires the affixing of a seal, the seal will be there. In the Constitution I do not think a seal is mentioned in more than a few cases where the President's signature is required. Therefore, if a seal is to become obligatory, in most cases it would become obligatory by legislation. We are providing, as in the case of the Ministers and Secretaries Act where it was found useful to have a seal, that a seal should be provided and used in accordance with certain conditions. We are making provision that the special seal to be provided can be affixed to any Order, commission, warrant or other instrument. I think the phrase "other instrument" is sufficiently wide to cover anything we may require in legislation. We provide that this seal will be got and how it is to be used. The danger that it may be lost is remote, but if we can provide it, in the first instance, by legislation such as this, I think we would be able to provide it by similar legislation, in any case of need.

Why not put in some such phrase as "from time to time as may be required"?

I do not think we should start with the assumption that we are going to lose these seals. They will be in the custody of the President, and we ought to assume at the start that they will not be lost. With regard to the other matters, they are really constitutional questions, and I do not think I should be asked at this stage to enter into the Constitution and explain what are the functions of the President and what are the provisions made in the Constitution with regard to our external affairs. If the Deputy gets a copy of the Constitution and reads it, he will get all the information he has asked me for. With regard to the design, that is being considered at present. No definite decision has been taken in the matter, but, in all probability, the new seal will closely resemble the seal in use for the Executive Council at the present time. In all probability, it will have a harp with perhaps the word "Eire" instead of "Saorstát Eireann" or something of that sort.

It should not be a very serious departure from the old one.

I do not think it will be. I have not got a definite decision from the Executive Council on the matter, I think, but so far as the preliminary examination is concerned, the seal will probably be a harp with the word "Eire," much like the seal of the President of the Executive Council at present.

There will have to be some distinction.

There will be a distinction. There will be the word "Eire," and there will have to be seals for the Ministers, too.

The Executive Council seal and the presidential seal must be different in form, obviously, if the courts are to recognise them.

There must be some difference but in the main characteristics they can be pretty well the same. If Deputies desire it we could, before we get the die cast, circulate a specimen of the proposed seal.

Question put and agreed to.
Second Stage ordered for Wednesday, November 24th.
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