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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 1938

Vol. 72 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 53—Fisheries.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £24,549 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1939, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Iascach Mara agus Intíre, maraon le hIldeontaisí-i-gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £24,549 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Sea and Inland Fisheries, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

This Estimate is set out under four main headings, viz.: Administration, Sea Fisheries, Inland Fisheries and Sea Fisheries Association. The total expenditure provided for shows a net decrease of £4,930 as compared with the figure for the previous year. The section dealing with Administration consists of four sub-heads — A, B, C and D. The increase of £1,356 shown in sub-head A over the corresponding figure for the preceding 12 months is due, in part, to the normal increments on salaries, and, in part, to addition to the staff of an assistant principal officer and one extra junior executive officer. The figures at sub-head B call for no comment. The provision under sub-head C and sub-head D is somewhat greater than that for last year mainly because of additional expenditure anticipated with regard to the items of advertising and telephone calls.

It may be well to repeat what I indicated when introducing last year's Estimate, namely, that in the event of the major Fisheries Bill being enacted within the current financial year, some increased outlay upon administrative and technical staff may prove to be inevitable during that year. The Bill in question is a rather comprehensive one and the preparation of it has entailed very full consideration of important points that arose as the measure was being got into shape.

It will be noted that there is an increase of £1,989 in the provision made for Sea Fisheries as a whole in comparison with the previous year's figure. I do not think that sub-heads E (1). E (2) and E (5) call for any comment. The items comprised in them are not large and there is no change in last year's figures. The increased outlay provided for at sub-head E (3) is to be explained by our having a second fishery cruiser in commission. When a Supplementary Estimate was submitted a few months ago for the fisheries service Deputies were made aware that this vessel has been taken over on a charter basis. That charter is due to expire towards the end of the calendar year 1938 and, consequently, provision is being made in respect of it for only part of the financial year. Should it be found advisable, after reasonable trial has been had of the vessel, to extend the charter period, it will be necessary to come here later with a Supplementary Estimate.

Next, there is an increase of £475 shown in the figures under sub-head E (4) which deals with whaling. Administration of the Whale Fisheries Act, 1937, is a new responsibility for my Department, and when introducing the Supplementary Estimate which, inter alia, covered expenditure thereon, I explained to the Dáil that we received licence fees from certain ships which had been registered in this country, and that, in return, we had to appoint officers to supervise the whaling operations conducted by such ships, in that way discharging our obligations as signatories to the Geneva Convention and the London Agreement with regard to whaling generally. The figures now set down are necessarily contingent upon factors beyond our control inasmuch as we cannot say what number, if any, of the whaling vessels now registered with us will continue that registration, or whether the existing number is likely to be increased. The main point, however, is that whatever be the number of such registrations, the receipts from licence fees are not merely to counter-balance but to exceed somewhat our expenditure upon supervision. The receipts by way of such licence fees would come in as an Appropriation-in-Aid of this Vote and Deputies will notice that we have made an estimate of the figure under sub-head H (8).

The aggregate expenditure set down for inland fisheries is £58 below that for the previous year. The previous year's figure, however, included a purely temporary item of £108, and, therefore, there is really an increase of just £56 when the normal items of this sub-head as a whole are compared with those for 1937/38. Subhead F (1) shows a reduction of £25 in the item concerning improvement of fish passes; but the reduction of £250 in the provision for grants to Boards of Conservators is offset by a like increase in the provision for payment to local authorities under the Fisheries Act, 1925. At sub-head F (2) there is an increase of £50 over last year's figure for fish hatcheries and at sub-head F (3) a rise of £25 in the total figure for wages and expenses in connection with the working of certain fisheries which are in the control of my Department. Sub-head F (4) calls for no particular comment.

With regard to the Sea Fisheries Association, the provision made in this part of the Estimate falls under four sub-heads. Sub-head G (1) covers the amount set down by way of Grants-in-Aid to this association towards the payment of its administrative expenses, and the figure is the same as that which was provided last year. Sub-head G (2) represents another Grant-in-Aid to the association, but in this case the money is to be devoted to schemes of general improvement for our sea fisheries, these schemes to be of such a nature as appear to my Department to be commendable, because it is on the recommendation of my Department that the Minister for Finance will agree to the issue of any such grant. The amount set down in this Estimate is £5,000, as against the sum of £10,000 which was voted last year. I will refer to this difference later.

Sub-head G (3) comprises the provision made for the issue to this association of repayable advances (not grants) for the purchase of boats and gear (and for the repair of such chattels) which are issued to approved members under a hire purchase contract. Here again the amount set down in this Estimate is £5,000, as against £10,000 voted last year, and I shall refer later to this difference also. Sub-head G (4) concerns a provision for repayable advances to be made to this association for the construction of works of a more or less permanent nature, that is to say, lobster ponds and such like structures, the need for which is very clear if our fishermen are to be in a position to dispose of their catches of shell-fish under the most favourable market conditions. The provision of £2,000 set down in this Estimate is considerably greater than the net amount voted last year for this particular sub-head.

In explaining the reduction in the aggregate amount provided under the four sub-heads just mentioned, that is to say, the drop from last year's £30,327 to £22,000 this year, a difference of £8,247, I would remind Deputies that it became necessary to set up an InterDepartmental Committee to examine the working of this association generally — to undertake, as it were, a sort of stocktaking of the whole position so that we might see what precisely had, so far, been achieved and what relation the results bore to the expenditure made in attaining them; also in what respects, if any, the procedure and general working of this association could be improved in the interests of its members and of our sea fisheries generally. That Committee of Inquiry, having been in consultation with the directors of the association, very soon found that there was a considerable cleavage of viewpoint as among these directors, and that, in short, there did not exist that spirit of agreement which is so important if the team-work of a board of directors is to be effective. Consequently, a few months ago it was arranged that the directors of this association would appoint a manager on my nomination and would transfer to that officer for a limited period all their powers and responsibilities under the association's rules. In that way we hoped that this manager would be free to survey the whole position, and to carry on the immediate work of the association free from any discordant notes, and thus place himself in a position to report fully to the Committee of Inquiry and to me at the end of his term of office as to the prospects of making this association an ultimate success.

The manager's first term of office having expired, it was arranged that the heavy weight of responsibility which he had been carrying should be restored in large measure to the board of directors. The election of two directors in the ordinary course by the members and the nomination by two others by me having taken place — all in accordance with the association's rules — and the full board of eight directors having been completed by the filling of these four vacancies, it was settled that the directors would avail themselves of the services of the manager for a further period, and would accord him a fairly wide discretion in the discharge of his duties. Such is the present position, and we all hope that with the whole-time assistance of their manager, the directors will find themselves able to reach a measure of success with this association which in the absence of such an officer they had failed to achieve.

While, however, the modification or expansion of their plans by this board is in progress I have not considered it necessary to ask for quite the same provision in respect of sub-heads G (2) and G (3) as was made last year. This is partly because the provision then made for G (2) had been availed of only in small degree by the association, and partly because I prefer to await having from this new board of directors a more or less definite statement of their aims of policy before undertaking to ask for larger sums of money to be made available for disbursement upon the work of this association. It will, I feel, be considered more satisfactory by the Dáil if I adopt this line and then come back by way of a Supplementary Estimate should I be convinced that a case has been made by the new board for the provision of further funds to them.

I do not think there is much need for me to say a great deal about Appropriations-in-Aid. The first item is stereotyped; the second item represents what we hope to retrieve during the coming year out of the considerable arrears that have been outstanding for a long time on foot of the fishery loans which were issued many years ago; and the third item is a token one to cover a case where a borrower has died without assets save perhaps the remains of some old boat which has to be disposed of for a trifle by my Department as creditor. Item (4) represents the income expected from the letting of sporting rights, and those fisheries the maintenance of which is provided for under sub-head F (3) before mentioned. Item (5) represents the estimate of what we may expect to get during the coming year from the Sea Fisheries Association in repayment of the principal and interest due by them on advances made under sub-heads G (3) and G (4), already referred to. Item (6) stands for the recoupment of the salaries of certain officers who are dealt with in sub-head A, but who have been seconded for service with the association. Item (7) represents the anticipated receipt by way of special local licences for netting in the estuaries of the Erne and Owenea, respectively, out of which receipt we have to meet the payment covered by item (5) of the sub-head F (1). Item (8) represents the expected receipts from licences which may be paid to us in respect of vessels operating under the Whale Fisheries Act, 1937, and to which I have already referred in discussing the provision set down contra at sub-head E (4). Item (9) is the same as last year and does not call for special comment. It will be observed that the total of the Appropriations-in-Aid is estimated at about the same as last year's figure.

Before concluding, I should like to advert to the statements made by me upon more than one occasion as to the opening which, in my opinion, existed in this country for a properly equipped and well-managed deep-sea trawling company. I am glad to say that quite recently arrangements were made whereby the Dublin Trawling, Ice and Cold Storage Company, which had been dormant for a considerable time, has been taken over and rehabilitated by a commercial group. The company has at least four steam trawlers now in commission, and is, I understand, busily engaged in arranging for a considerable expansion of its fleet. While we all wish the best of luck to this group of business men in their enterprise, I want to make it quite clear that this revival of the company is not a State undertaking. It is nothing more or less than a commercial undertaking or investment by the parties concerned. On the other hand, the Government are pleased to see that this local industry has been revived; and, so far as it may be within the province of my Department, or any other Department of State, to facilitate those who have undertaken this revival, that will be done.

I was glad to learn from the Minister's concluding remarks the intention of a company to begin operations for the trawling of fish, but I hope that before that will be done certain control will be exercised by the State to prevent any infringement of the rights of the smaller fishermen by a company such as that. Otherwise, the incursions of foreign trawlers would unquestionably injure the smaller men, and defeat the object of the Department of Fisheries. At the same time we cannot ignore the very substantial increase in wealth that would be brought to the country if such a company were operating, but, as I have said, our chief concern must be to prevent the living of a very large fishing population being in any way curtailed or interfered with. One section of the fishing population in which I am very deeply interested is the salmon net fishermen. The decrease in the quantities of salmon caught by those men is a matter of very vital concern, not alone to those who take an interest in this deserving class but also to the State, because we cannot ignore the fact that reports have been made from a very extended area of the country that considerable destruction of spawning fish occurs at the source of the rivers.

Tales are told of absolutely mischievous and deliberate attempts to take up a large number of spawning fish, which must militate enormously against any possibility of the rivers being properly stocked. The State is doing its part in helping to stock hatcheries with salmon ova, and that in itself will be a very considerable help. But I think the natural spawning of fish with proper seasonal protection will be the best means of preventing the depletion of our rivers of stocks of salmon or spawn. That is one of the factors which I was anxious to bring to the notice of the Department. You cannot ignore the fact that a great deal of blame seems to be placed on the net fishermen for depletion of the rivers, but most of us who know them will realise that they are really sportsmen at heart, and if, by any possible chance, a spawning fish were caught in the net, it would be thrown overboard again. They realise that such fish are absolutely unfit for food and that they would be only doing an injury to themselves.

There is another factor which I have been asked to bring before the House, and that is that extraordinary relic of feudalism which exists on one of our most important salmon rivers, a relic of a historic time when might was right, and that is the Lismore Estates Company, who exercise a right over the Blackwater which was inherited, I think, from Sir Walter Raleigh. At any rate, you have got rid of the landlords; you have succeeded in effecting an agreement in connection with the land annuities, and I am sure the genius of the Minister will devise some scheme in order to get rid of ever so great a person as a duke. I think that we must ask that some effort should be made to bring to an end something which has been regarded as tyrannical and unjust. These fishermen have to pay a sum of £10 for a harbour licence, together with a sum of £3 to the conservators, and in addition to that even a sum of £1 for a sprat net has been imposed. I think the time has come to ask that the State should intervene and endeavour, either by agreement or by legislation, to give these men the right, which undoubtedly from tradition or from immemorial time they had, of fishing on one of the greatest rivers. Serious disabilities in connection with the size of the nets, too, are imposed on these men, and that has been found to be absolutely inadequate. I ask that the Minister should give his attention to removing the difficulties with which these men have to contend.

The Minister mentioned the provision of hatcheries and also of lobster ponds, which are a very desirable help to a great industry of which we ought to be able to make more use. But there is one point to which the Minister might direct his attention, and that is the provision of oyster beds. We know that in the past very considerable sums of money were made from oyster breeding. I happen to know one of these beds myself in Cork and there was also another at Carrigaline. These were very valuable sources of revenue to those who provided and worked them. I suggest that these can be developed now for the benefit of the local fishermen by laying down these beds with proper oyster seed.

A very considerable sum of money is expended year after year, but it is a matter of concern that the results, so far as the small men are concerned, are not greater. The fisherman, if he wants to get a motor boat or gear of any kind, has to pay a very substantial sum as deposit, which very often he is not able to pay, and the result is that he must seek employment elsewhere rather than in the natural industry to which he was brought up and to which he was accustomed. I suggest to the Minister that that imposition of a deposit before he will get a loan for either a motor boat or gear should be abolished. Our chief concern must be to provide employment for men who are a hardy and courageous race and an undoubted asset to the country, and being more liberal in the giving of loans and not curtailing their activities by the repayment of money that they do not possess would tend to help us in wealth producing.

I think there is only one branch of the Minister's Department that shows an improvement and that is the whale-fishing. I was very glad to see that the whale-fishing has been so successful so far as the Department is concerned as to bring in a revenue of £2,100 in the issue of licences, but I am afraid the Minister has used that to close our eyes to the important fact that what is known as sea fishing proper has shown a very decadent outlook. The whole attitude of the Ministry towards this very important industry, or what should be an important industry, is that it has gone to the lowest depths and is scarcely worth reviving. In the last few years we have been taking up this Estimate year after year and we have seen the conditions getting worse and worse. In fact, a few years ago I was so impressed with the impossibility of doing anything with regard to sea fishing that I thought the Minister should in future cease to ask for any Estimate for this industry at all, or cease to keep alive a Department which had no function whatever to perform, or which was, at all events, performing no useful function with regard to this important industry.

In fact we have not got a Minister for Fisheries at all. I emphasise that this industry has fallen so low that it does not want the special undivided attention of a qualified person to look after it. We all know how the Minister has been handicapped in the last four or five years by the economic war, and perhaps that might be claimed by him as some excuse for the terrible decadence into which sea fisheries have fallen. I do not want to blame the Minister or his Party or the policy of the Party for what has befallen the industry; but it is a remarkable fact that for many years past while Fianna Fáil have been in power there has been a terrible and deplorable falling off not only in the landings of fish in this country, but in the number of boats and men employed.

Deputy Brasier made reference to the fact that there is the potential danger that this new deep-sea trawling industry might affect the living of a large number of our fishing population. I should like to know what Deputy Brasier means by the large number of our fishing population. Is he not aware, and is the House not aware, that the number of persons engaged in sea fishing in this country at present is only something over 7,000 persons? That is in a country which comparatively has the largest seaboard of any country in the world. Before the Fianna Fáil Party came into power there were 12,000 persons employed as fishermen in this country. That included men employed wholly and partially in fishing. The number of boats engaged in fishing, including boats partially and wholly occupied, was 3,434 before Fianna Fáil came into office. That number has now fallen to 2,646. Therefore, there has been a great decrease in the number of men employed and also in the number of boats.

While that has been going on the annual value of the catches has been getting less and less. For the last completed year for which we have any information the total value of the fish landed on our shores amounted only to £152,182. If you divide that amount by the number of men engaged in the industry I think you will see that the income of the men engaged does not average more than 7/- or 8/- each per week. If this industry is so important as we are led to believe it should be able to afford far more than 7/- or 8/- per week to those engaged in it. While the total value of our catches amounted only to £152,182, we imported fish to the value of £316,708. Considerably more than twice the value of the quantity of fish landed has been brought in here either as fresh fish or in a preserved form. Included in these imports was £30,000 worth of preserved fish from Japan. That is an extraordinary fact, that we are importing preserved fish from Japan to the extent of £30,000 worth. The whole Vote asked for by the Minister does not exceed that amount very much. That, I think, is an extraordinary state of affairs.

I am afraid I shall have to admit that the Sea Fisheries Association, from my association with it — no pun intended — has not been a success. I have been a member of the Sea Fisheries Association practically since it was founded. I have had experience of it under two Governments, and I am not in this case attaching any more blame to the Fianna Fáil Government than to their predecessors for what I would call, not the failure, but what I should rather regard as the non-success of the Sea Fisheries Association. That, I think, might be attributable to the fact that the association has not got enough scope. Certainly those associated with the administration of it say that they have not got enough money. I have always felt that an industry so important as the fishing industry should get more money from Government sources. We cannot run it with the amount of money provided here. The problem has not been tackled with the imagination and courage that one might expect. Even though the Sea Fisheries Association has undoubtedly done some good work, the work, I feel, has not been dealt with in the way it should be. The Minister has referred to differences of opinion amongst the members of the association, but I do not think these differences were responsible for the non-success of the association. That non-success was inherent and fundamental in the association from the beginning.

In that regard, I should like to repeat what I have already said in regard to the Gaeltacht Vote, namely, that we should bring into being some body like the old Congested Districts Board. That was a board that attended to the wants of the rural population and did not confine its activities to those who were purely Gaelic speakers. When a Department for the Gaeltacht was set up here our first idea was to preserve the language amongst the people of the Gaeltacht, but I do not think we have succeeded either in preserving the language or in preserving a livelihood for the people of the Gaeltacht. At present we have the Government migrating these people from the Gaeltacht to other parts of the country. I think that in conjunction with industries that are what I would term native to the seaboard, we should revive some interest in fishing, that we should get these people interested in something that would give them a livelihood and at the same time preserve the native culture and the native habits. In doing that we should have recourse to what I should call voluntary co-operation. That work could best be done by some body functioning under some such Department as the old Congested Districts Board rather than by a sub-office functioning under the Government.

The Minister has dealt with the industry more or less from the point of view of developing deep sea fisheries or the trawling end of the industry, but I do not think there is ever going to be in this country such a demand for fish as would justify our going in for the development of the home market on a large commercial scale. The population of this country is small, and the fish-eating propensities of the people are not very marked. I rather think that the industry should be developed from the exporting end. We are living close to a country which has a teeming industrial population, a population which has a decided taste for fish. England imported last year fish nearly to the value of £3,000,000. More than half of that came from Norway and Denmark. Here we are with our tremendous seaboard, quite close to England, and yet half the quantity of fish imported into England came from Norway and Denmark. Our aim should be to improve the facilities for catching fish and for exporting fish to the English market. Now that the economic war is over, and that there is no longer a tariff on our fish going into the British market, I think that the Minister ought to devote his attention to the development of the English market as well as looking after the home market. It is a market that is worth exploitation, a market which, while it may not be without some limits, at all events has got limits that we are never likely to reach.

While saying this, I should like to give the Minister credit for the efforts he has made to protect our fishermen. I think the chartering of the second protective vessel was a step in the right direction. Whether it is going to be a success we shall see in due course, but I think the Minister is right in chartering this vessel, if only as an experiment. Then again this protection is not as effective as it should be, even with the second vessel. We are not able to keep these poachers away from our shores as we should, and I think a great deal of the fault is due to the fact that we have not got our by-laws codified or made properly effective. Now that we have passed our Constitution and declared our authority over our seas and the islands adjacent thereto, to use the words of the Constitution, I think we ought to be in a better position internationally to protect our fisheries, to see that they are kept for our fishermen and that they are kept immune from interference by foreign trawlers.

An extraordinary thing happened a few weeks ago. There are many trawlers from Spain fishing on the south coast. They fish in pairs, similar to what was done by mine sweepers during the war, two boats being about three-quarters of a mile apart, with a big trawl in between. One of these vessels went ashore in calm weather recently three or four miles inside of the old head of Kinsale. That shows that they must have been poaching. I think the Minister was informed that these boats only fish within a certain distance from the shore, but that is not so. In another case an English trawler which was brought before the courts was, in my opinion, fishing well within the three-mile limit, but in law the defence was successful. That brings me to the point that our fishing laws are not codified or properly emphasised. We have two classes of by-laws dealing with trawlers, one containing 26 regulations, and the other 30 regulations, referring only to steam trawlers. Between these two codes there are contradictions, and some of the regulations have been in force for over 100 years. The Minister and the Department should endeavour to get these laws properly codified.

While on that point, I think the Minister might also turn his attention to the possibility of getting some sort of international arrangement with regard to trawlers. Certain English and Scotch vessels come to our shores and poach for fish that they are not allowed to take off their own shores. The owners of these vessels will not break the by-laws in force in their own countries, but they have no hesitation about breaking our by-laws and getting away with it. There should be some sort of international understanding dealing with steam trawlers. The time for such a proposal is opportune, in view of the new arrangement with Great Britain. I think it would be favourably received at present. There is a precedent for such an international arrangement, because some time ago agreement was reached with regard to the catching of immature fish. The Department was represented, I think, at that conference, and certain regulations have been published. The results should be very good and should protect the fish, so that even our own people will not be allowed to take small-sized fish. Having regard to what was done for the protection of immature fish, something might also be done by which understanding might be arrived at with regard to the limits within which English and Scottish trawlers off our coasts could fish. We might perhaps try to have some understanding similar to one reached on the Continent. The Baltic countries came to an arrangement regarding the prohibition of trawling, which is not altogether in consonance with the international three-mile limit but includes many safeguards.

With regard to the marketing of fish, it is up to the Minister's Department to see that when fish are caught they are marketed in a proper way. That refers particularly to the marketing of cured herrings and cured mackerel. Cured herrings go principally to Germany, Russia and other Continental parts. I understand that there are certain regulations dealing with these exports, and that they are fairly well observed by our exporters. Cured mackerel went principally to America, and while there has been a great falling off in the trade, due to influences which I need not recapitulate, it was at one time a very important part of our economy, particularly on the west coast of Kerry and the south-west of Cork. The exports of salted mackerel went to New York and Baltimore. There was a tariff against the exports, which practically killed the trade for a time, or made it scarcely worth while keeping. We tried to get over the difficulty in a way that the Minister will remember, by a sort of subsidy, but the American authorities increased the tariff when they found that the industry was being subsidised. That is an industry of a very important kind, because it comes along at the fall of the year. Coming in after the harvest, it is a very valuable industry and should be encouraged. As the Minister for Agriculture has set up standards for the quality of butter and eggs, I think the same might be done with regard to fishing. I am anticipating the time when the fishing industry will develop along the lines the Minister indicated. In that connection I will quote for the information of the House a letter written by a firm of American importers in Baltimore in June:—

"We wish to emphasise the necessity for more care in counting and grading Irish mackerel. We have had a lot of trouble in late years with barrels incorrectly marked and poorly sorted and graded, and unless this practice is corrected it is going to have a very injurious effect on the market for Irish fish in general, as this trouble is not confined to any one shipper. We trust that you will make greater efforts to see that your pack is more accurately counted and marked, and it would be most beneficial if you could take this matter up with your neighbours in the business, with a view to improving the quality of the Irish shipments, and so create a feeling of dependability amongst the comparatively few importers who are still fairly large buyers."

I refer that letter to the Minister for his attention, because the industry has great possibilities and might be very much extended. I want to try to help the Minister, rather than to have any regard to mistakes that were made in the past, because fishing has practically disappeared as an industry. As very few people and very few boats are engaged in it, any change may be for the better. I should like to emphasise the necessity of trying to develop the export trade to England. Another matter that I wish to raise concerns the protection of our own market, which is a very big one, having regard to the quantity of fish imported. The Minister will have to be very careful in that respect, so that whatever protection will be given will not necessarily raise the cost of fish to our people or interfere with the continuity of supply. I cannot help thinking that something must be done in a practical way for the fishing industry. In order to show how this country is affected by the importation of fish I will mention an incident that came under my notice. I saw some landings of herrings at Kinsale in the spring, for which a market could not be found within 24 hours. Some of the boats that caught the fish were subsidised or provided by the Irish Sea Fisheries Association, and the owners had paid deposits on them. On the same day I was in conference with the local buyers, and a message was received from Dublin stating that 1,000 boxes of fish had been landed from Dutch trawlers, and that there was a plentiful supply of herrings from English and Scotch boats. That is what happened while the fishermen in Kinsale could not sell their catches. The Minister must protect our fishermen in some way, while at the same time having regard to the danger of raising the cost of fish on our people or interfering with the continuity of supply.

I do not think there are many more points in the Minister's report that I would like to criticise, but I do think that the Sea Fisheries Association ought to be done away with altogether and some new form of administration substituted for it on the lines of the old Congested Districts Board.

I would ask the Minister to try and look for more money for his Department. The Minister for Finance would probably tell him he is not making proper use of what he is getting at present. I think an industry of this kind cannot be administered properly or effectively, with the small amount of money allowed for it. We are in a very bad state in the fishing industry, very bad indeed. We must begin from the bottom and build it up and we must have proper regard to the conditions that prevail in the industry and the conditions we have to compete with and the competition we have to contend with from other sources. We have to build it up as a means of providing food for our own people and also to build it up as an industry that will have an export value and provide not only food for our people but employment for persons engaged in the packing and the export of this fish. I would ask the Minister to take into serious account the matters I have raised. I think there is a future before the fishing industry in this country but it will need very serious attention, not only from the Minister but from somebody even better than the Minister. I have no fault to find with the Minister's personal interest in this industry, nor do I attribute to him any blame for the failures that have taken place. He does not really understand the question. He has been saddled with a responsibility he is not fit for. He has enough to do in the other industries he is engaged in but I do think somebody ought to be got who would understand about fishing and who would put some life into the whole Department — the Fisheries Department, or the Sea Fisheries Association, or whatever form of activity is going to take its place.

We have got to face this question in a big way, we have got to get some imagination and put some drive into it. Do not let it be as it has been in the past, always going down hill until it has practically ceased to be an industry at all. Let it provide a revenue for our people and an industrial activity for those who would be inclined to put money into it.

I would be glad to know if the Minister is satisfied with the progress that has been made during the past year in the negotiations that are being carried on with a view to getting more favourable consideration from the medical authorities in England in connection with the mussel fishing industry. For some years past it has been customary to raise this mussel fishing industry on this Vote and, personally, I feel that we should have reached the stage when it would be possible to have the mussel purification tanks erected and a market developed on the other side. I am satisfied that there are many inquiries for mussels from dealers on the markets in England, especially during the past year. They have been looking forward to placing orders here for our fish as soon as the purification tanks are in operation and the necessary certificates forthcoming from this side. I wish to make a special plea upon this occasion that the matter should be speeded up because of the fact that the fishermen at the mouth of the Boyne, in whom I am particularly interested, have had a very inferior salmon fishing season. In the early stages of the salmon fishing season this year when the price was remunerative the fishing was below the standard. Later on, of course, when the price went down, matters improved somewhat in that there were more fish coming in but, however, taking the salmon fishing industry on the mouth of the Boyne as a whole this year, it is much below the standard. Consequently, the fishermen there will be faced with a very serious situation in the winter months because of the fact that they had not their usual source of income in the spring and summer months. Some years ago it was customary for those men to fish for salmon in the early stages of the year and then to turn their attention to fishing for mussel and it was indeed a very great industry for those people. It gave them ample remuneration for their work and it was a splendid little industry in the winter time of the year when they could not be fishing for any other fish. There are some hundreds of people on both sides of the Boyne who are looking forward to the erection of a purification tank so as to enable them to ship their mussels and who shipped them some years ago before the medical authorities in England refused to take them without the proper purification.

I do not wish to enter into competition with Kerry Deputies who are fighting for purification tanks in the mussel beds of Kerry, but what I do suggest is that two smaller tanks should be erected so that we could have one at the mouth of the Boyne and another in Kerry, if that is possible. Of course, the original idea was to have one central tank erected here in Dublin Bay, and £5,000 was allocated a couple of years ago on the Vote for Fisheries. Of course, that was not realised, because the Department was not satisfied that the market would be found and thought that if the tank were erected it would prove to be a white elephant. I think, now that conditions have improved so much, that that danger does not exist any longer, and I would appeal to the Minister to take his courage in his hands now before the winter sets in. I know that grants have been forthcoming from the Board of Works and from the Fisheries Department for certain works during the winter for the past couple of years, but for those fishermen at the mouth of the Boyne those grants have been insufficient. Looking forward to the coming winter I feel that unless the tank is erected those people will feel the hardships very severely. The grants are inadequate because there are too many people depending upon the fishing industry there, and, when they lose their regular income, their income from other works which they are capable of performing usually proves insufficient. I do make a strong appeal to the Minister on this occasion to assure the House that he will be able to place the amount of money necessary for the erection of these tanks under this Vote

The point made by the Deputy in reference to the Boyne salmon fishermen can be borne out by every other fisherman in every stream in the State. Salmon fishing has been practically a failure this year, and a large number of men and the families dependent upon them are faced with a very bad prospect for the winter. The Ministry must take some energetic action in the protection of the spawning beds. There should be a thorough investigation into it to try and find out what is the cause of the scarcity of salmon at this particular time of the year. There is a scarcity of salmon in the rivers. I do not intend to refer very much to this; the whole question has been covered, as far as deep sea fishing is concerned, by Deputy O'Neill, but Deputy Brasier in referring particularly to the Blackwater fishermen made a reference to Sir Walter Raleigh and the Earl of Cork, and the amusement of the Minister and the consultation with the nearest member behind him gave me the impression that the thing was being treated rather lightly. The claim was put forward that now that many questions were settled that this one question of the feudal rights of the Blackwater might be seriously treated. The impression given by the speaker — I am quite sure unintentionally — was that this was a thing that had continued for generations, and that this claim was one that went back to the Sir Walter Raleigh or the Earl of Cork period. That is not at all according to the facts.

What are the facts? I myself am quite old enough to remember the law suit and the legal proceedings that were entailed in this thing. Renovations were being made in the famous castle at Lismore when some old script was discovered, and on the script was the claim by the then Duke of Devonshire to the bed and soil of the Blackwater. That was contested by the fishermen and all their supporters along the Blackwater. It passed from one court to the other, and it finished up in a compromise in the House of Lords. The compromise was that a certain number of fishermen were to be permitted to fish. The implication of that is quite clearly that control of the bed and soil of the Blackwater goes to the Duke of Devonshire. What I want to contradict is the impression accepted by the House that this thing was of centuries standing. It is only the result of a compromise by the House of Lords, and that in very recent times. The compromise was that a certain number of fishermen were to be allowed to fish. I think the number was 29. There was a further limitation, because the length of their nets was prescribed. All this made it extremely difficult for the fishermen to make a living.

The claim is now made that the Minister should take this thing up energetically. He has faced much bigger questions, and ones of longer standing that this compromise of the House of Lords and the supposed right of the Duke of Devonshire. It is the only river in the country in regard to which such feudal claims can be made and upheld. I support very strongly the suggestion that the Minister should take this up seriously. The people there are suffering considerably through what was an accidental happening, if you like — I refer to the finding of the script. One point that might be taken up is the prescribed length of the net that the fishermen are allowed to fish with. There is a third point, and that is the prescribed area, possibly a quarter of a mile, which the fishermen are not allowed to use. Life has been lost there in bad weather because the fishermen are not allowed to use this place. If the Minister is disposed to go into this question, any information I have at my disposal will be readily placed before him.

There are a good many more points that could be considered in making a case. I am not one who would like to break through a national understanding nor am I one to repudiate lawful authority, but I suggest that this giving of the bed and soil of the Blackwater to the Duke of Devonshire is due to an accidental happening, the discovery of a script which was found about 48 years ago. The whole thing eventually wound up by giving him certain liberties as a result of a compromise. The position to-day is that there is great hardship amongst the fishermen there who are open at all times to be chased and hunted away. They are, one might say, living the lives of outlaws, and such a position should not be allowed to continue indefinitely in a country with its own administration. I hope the Minister will investigate this matter seriously, and any assistance I can give I shall be always ready to give it. I shall be happy to place before the Minister all the information I possess.

In connection with fisheries, a number of things have been said from some of which false deductions might be drawn. Some of the statements on the subject of salmon fishing this year rather indicate a complete ignorance of the conditions which prevail. An attempt has been made to suggest that the scarcity of fish is due to poaching. It is also suggested that the bailiffs and the Guards do not do their duty. I think an elementary knowledge of salmon and the conditions prevailing this year would dispose of those suggestions. For several months there was very little water in the rivers and the bulk of the fish remained in the sea. They would very quickly travel up the rivers had there been a supply of fresh water.

I should like to join with Deputy O'Neill in asking for more money for this Department. I think there is every need for infusing fresh life and energy into the Department. The Minister has indicated the cause of the disaster in his Department. According to the Minister, there are three authorities in his Department, all of them semi-independent. There is, first, the Minister; secondly, the Sea Fisheries Association and, thirdly, a manager who has been appointed by the association. Apparently, the internal condition of the Sea Fisheries Association was such that the committee or whatever they are could not agree about anything, and disagreement reached the point when it was thought advisable to have a manager.

What are the functions of the manager? What authority has he? When he arrives at any decision, can he enforce it in the event of disagreement with the members of the association? Does he make proposals, refer them to the association, and can they disagree about them the same as hitherto? Deputy O'Neill wants more money for fisheries. He wants more protection. He suggests an international arrangement the same as in the case of the catching of immature fish. There is no analogy between them. Immature fish can be refused in the market. In the case of the protection of fisheries it is quite a different matter. I think we will have to resort again to the old method of force. What success has attended the sending out of the new boat? The Minister indicated on another occasion that the new boat was unarmed. Is she unarmed now? I understood from the Minister on another occasion that the speed of the boat was about ten knots an hour, or three knots slower than the Muirchu.

Has the Minister counteracted the difficulty with regard to her speed by the range of the guns? Will the ports that we are taking over in a few days be used in defending the fisheries? What is the range of the new armament that we are going to put into the forts? Will it be such as to make it dangerous for any trawlers to come within 20 miles of the coast of Éire? The real cause of the disaster of the fishing industry is the fact that the Minister has taken no steps to find a market for fish. Where is the use of setting up a Sea Fisheries Association when there is nothing done about procuring a market?

Why impute the fault to the management? The whole thing is due to neglect on the part of the Government. Take the operations of the association. Anybody who puts down one-tenth of the cost of a boat is given a loan to buy a boat; he goes out, catches fish but when he brings them in he finds there is no market for the fish. Would anybody outside a mental home make that sort of a suggestion and put it forward as a business proposition? Last year the Minister for Agriculture secured a quota from Germany, for, I think, some £10,000 worth of herrings. True we received that nominal quota for herrings but the Germans were not bound to take £10,000 worth of herrings. While provisionally giving that quota for herrings they were not bound really to take one barrel of herrings. What wonder is it, therefore, that when the fisherman went out and caught herrings he had no market. That is how the industry was killed and how this great source of wealth was rendered useless. That is the real cause of the decay of the fishing industry.

We got a quota the year before last for a certain quantity of herrings. The people who purchased that quantity of fish purchase £3,000,000 of fresh fish annually. Now we ship fat cattle to Germany. We had quite a good market for fat cattle. Why did not the Minister, when making a deal with these people, ask for a market for our fish? What is the use of getting a nominal quota for 10,000 barrels of herrings, when there was no obligation on the Germans to take even that quantity? In this matter of herrings that was really the last blow to the industry here. When there are big catches of herrings and when they are landed here it is found that no one will cure them because in the absence of a market it would not pay to do so. Now this year the same condition of things prevails. Then we will be told "you did not fill last year's quota." That is no answer. I told the Minister last year the cause of the failure and he knows it himself.

Will the Minister tell us what steps he is going to take to help the fishing industry? For our size we are the largest importers from Germany of any country in the world. Cannot we have a fair deal with these people? Are we always going to have these people saying to the Minister and is he going always to go on telling us "we can't do any better." By his actions the Minister seems to be afraid of the Germans who "can do this thing and that thing" to us. But there is the old maxim — that might is not right. Surely if we have business to do and if we have a quota to receive and a quota to give we should find people with whom to do business. It is altogether a question of business, of £.s.d. These people seem to be insistent on striking hard bargains with us. Is it not about time that we stiffened our backs? If this industry were only a side line with us it would be quite a different matter but it is our second largest source of wealth. Yet it only represents the miserable sum stated by Deputy O'Neill.

I earnestly appeal to the Minister to cease wasting the large sums of money that are being wasted on this Department unless he takes steps to make the thing efficient. As it is, the money spent is purely thrown away. Deputy Kelly comes along with the old cry about a disinfecting tank for mussels. I think if the whole Department were taken down and put into that disinfecting tank it would be a good thing. The Deputy brings it forward this year again as a hardy annual. We are told that mussels cannot be shipped owing to the lack of a few thousand pounds for this tank. If that tank were erected and the officials taken down there, well, it might not be so bad. Some hustle might be infused into them.

Is the Minister serious in speaking about the setting up of a departmental committee with regard to inquiring into whatever disagreement exists in the Sea Fisheries Association? What power has the manager of that association got? Has he the right to overrule the association? I understood some time ago that the association was dissolved or abolished or superceded. For practical purposes I do not see what use it is. The members come up here to Dublin at the taxpayers' expense. They hold meetings and receive applications for loans for boats. If the proposition appears to them sound they lend money for the purchase of boats. But is not all that on the assumption that the man when he catches his fish will have a market for it? If the man has not a market, how is he to repay the amount of the loan? Really is it not a case of the money being given under false pretences? The money is given, I presume, subject to the conditions that the fishery industry will be protected and that a market will be found for the fish that is being cured.

Along the entire coast of Donegal the curing industry is dead. Yet at the last meeting of the Donegal County Council I read that provisions were made for new steps, new beacons and new iron ladders for the fishermen while the industry is only a mere fraction of what it used to be. I would like to hear from the Minister his policy in putting this industry on its feet. The Minister read out a list of items and expenditure. That was like a schoolboy's rhyme. The Minister read out this list of things that was prepared and handed to him by some official. It was just like a schoolmaster handing something to a child to read out to the rest of the class. That is not going to get us anywhere and it is not going to get the industry anywhere. We should be frank about this matter and unless we can do better than we have been doing we should close down this branch of the Department.

It is now three or four years ago since the Minister promised an amended Fisheries Bill. That promise was renewed each year since but the Bill has not yet appeared. Serious matters and important interest for the people are involved in that Bill but no financial provision has yet been made in regard to it. The people who are most deeply interested do not know where they are. At all events, a number of men should not be asked to come up here from the country to these meetings at the expense of the taxpayers and go back by the next train. There is no reason why this Bill should not be introduced. It certainly was not pressure of work that prevented it.

Would the Minister tell us what advantages have been gained by having secured a second boat for the protection of the fisheries? Has it given effective protection to our fisheries? I should like the Minister to explain how it was that this boat, to which Deputy O'Neill refers, ran on the rocks at Kinsale in the last week or so. There is also this matter of grading, to which Deputy O'Neill has referred. I think that, if anything substantial is being done with regard to the export of fish, and particularly with regard to mackerel, this question of the grading of fish, and the standard and quality of fish, should be attended to. It is rather surprising that, in a country such as ours, with a very extended sea-board, fish should be exported without any proper method of grading. It is certainly a very serious oversight on the part of the Department, and the matter is one to which the Department should attend forthwith. It is certainly curious that mackerel should be cured and put into barrels without any check at all as to the number or quality or standard of the fish put into the barrels. People carrying on a high-class business exporting fish to America and other countries, and selling various classes of fish or such commodities to customers, should grade these commodities carefully according to quality, and the prices would be graduated according to the grade.

I should like to hear from the Minister about the one serious question— the only real question at issue — in connection with this Estimate — and that is as to what he is doing with regard to this year, and what he proposes for the future, in connection with getting quotas for our fish. That is the real issue in this Estimate. The other issues are quite simple, and follow from that big issue. Let us suppose that Germany should close out the market there for our fish, what is the Minister doing to secure quotas for us? Our Minister for Agriculture has been across in London during the last three or four months, and I expect that he made contact there with the British Minister for Agriculture. Assuming that our Minister is ousted from the German market, will he strike a bargain with the British Minister for Agriculture in order to get a decent quota for our fish? Even if he were to get a quota for 60,000 or 70,000 barrels of cured herrings, it would succeed in putting new life into the fishing industry in this State. That would not be a very large quota, and it would not solve the problem, but at least it would put new life into the industry, and I do not think it would be putting any undue burden on the Minister to ask him to secure a quota for 60,000 or 70,000 barrels. Naturally, I should be glad if he could secure a quota for 100,000 barrels, but, as I say, even a quota of 60,000 or 70,000 barrels would put new life into the industry and also into the Sea Fisheries Association. A lot of the troubles of the Sea Fisheries Association would disappear if that could be done, but the Sea Fisheries Association is a mere mockery unless the Minister, who is at the top, does something. Money is being given out to purchase boats, but what is the use of giving out the money for the purchase of these boats if there is nothing for the boats to do, because there is no market for whatever fish they catch?

With regard to this question of salmon fishing, I should certainly like to dissociate myself from the implications of the statement that the lack of salmon recently is due to poaching. I think that that is an undeserved reflection on the bailiffs and the Civic Guards. I can find no trace of any serious poaching having taken place in the rivers here, and I think it is obvious that the lack of salmon in the estuaries and rivers of this country this year is due to the lack of fresh water in the rivers and estuaries and not due to poaching or anything of that kind. I would strongly suggest to the Minister that the best message he could send to the fishermen off the shores of this country is that he has secured for them a decent quota of some 60,000 or 70,000 barrels of herrings for the current year.

It is rather remarkable, Sir, that this is the one Estimate upon which there seems to be general agreement in the House. Nobody has a good word to say for the Department of Fisheries, and it goes to show that there is probably a certain amount of justification for the saying "One man, one job"; because the Minister, in his other sphere of activities, succeeded in getting rid of the calves and the old cows, but in his sphere of activity connected with the matter of fisheries, he cannot succeed in getting rid of the fish. Now, I do not presume to know anything at all about the fisheries or the fishing industry generally, but I find it hard to understand why I should hear it being bewailed from all sides of the House that there is no market for our fish when, as I suggest to the Minister, you have in this country one of the largest home markets for fish that you could find in any country in the world. Owing to the religion of the great majority of the people of this country we have, approximately, a day of abstinence in every week of the year, as well as about 16 more fast days in Lent and the Ember days and the eves of holidays. There is no good, therefore, in saying that you have no market for fish, because there is the market here in your own country, but let the Minister go into any small town or village in the country on a fast day and try to get fish for his lunch, and he will find it almost an impossibility, and even if he were to succeed in getting some fish, I do not think the type of fish he would get would be a matter of congratulation for the Department.

As I say, I find it hard to understand that no attempt is being made to develop the home market for our fish, and I suggest to the Minister that what is necessary is the organisation of a campaign on some such lines as "Eat more fish". I do not see why a market that is right at our very door, so to speak, should be entirely overlooked, and I suggest that there should be a campaign along some such lines in this country and that some machinery should be set up for the marketing and early delivery of fish to the inland towns of the country. That would have a very beneficial effect on our fishing industry.

With regard to what Deputy McMenamin said in reference to the shortage of salmon here, I should like to support the Deputy. I do not think that the shortage of salmon can be attributable to poaching. As a matter of fact, I think that poaching in this country is a fast-dying-out art, and I do not think there was anything like the same number of prosecutions or convictions for poaching during the past five years as there was in any other five-year period during the last 30 or 40 years. There is another point to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. I am not at all sure if this is correct, but it has been mentioned several times in my constituency. Salmon have died in the Blackwater for no apparent reason and from some, at the moment, unknown disease. A number of people attribute the deaths of these salmon in the Blackwater to the sewage coming from the beet factory at Mallow and going into the river. As the Minister is aware, the beet factory there is built alongside the river, and there is a large pond there, of a couple of acres in extent, into which there is this discharge, and that goes into the river and creates a kind of slime on the river. I am not saying — because I do not know — that that is exactly the cause of the deaths of the salmon in the lower reaches of that river, but it has been suggested by some of the people there and by some of the conservators that it is one of the causes, and I should like to bring the matter to the Minister's attention in the hope that he would have it investigated with a view to clearing up whether or not it is the cause of the deaths of these salmon. If that should be found to be the case, something should be done to remedy the matter.

I believe myself that there is another complaint about these inland fisheries, and it is this: that in a number of places you have mill streams run off very small rivers. You have weirs constructed on the rivers to carry the water to the mill stream. I think it should be made absolutely compulsory to have a very fine mesh netting at the mouth of these weirs so that trout and young salmon could not get down into the mill streams, because if they do get down they will ultimately be put through the turbines. On a number of occasions I have seen fish get into these small mill streams on which you have creameries and mills. The fish get through the weir so that when the water is shut off they are left there high and dry to be put into bags by people with their hands. I do not say that happens very often, but there is just the possibility of great damage being done to trout and young salmon in that way. Some protection should be provided so as to prevent them from getting through the weirs.

I repeat that I believe there is a great market for fresh fish in this country. I seriously put it to the Minister and his Department that if they could do anything in that direction it would go a long way to help our fishermen along the coasts. I believe that a campaign should be started for putting fresh fish into various inland towns in the country. If that were done it would confer a great benefit on our fishermen along the coast.

I desire to draw the Minister's attention to the great disability which the Claddagh fishermen suffer under by reason of being prevented from pursuing drift-net fishing for salmon in Galway Bay. It is one of the few places along the west coast where such a prohibition exists, and is particularly hard on these men in view of the fact that the owner of a several fishery on the Corrib is allowed to net that river. I am told that he does that in a very unsportsmanlike way. I think there is no reason whatever why the Claddagh fishermen would not be allowed to supplement their earnings from fishing with a drift net in Galway Bay. The matter has been the subject of a good deal of discussion locally. Representations were made to the previous Government and to the present Government on the matter. I think myself that there is a good deal of justice in the claim of the Claddagh men.

On the general question of the inland fisheries, I am satisfied myself, at any rate, that on the west coast of Ireland generally the people are opposed to the present system of control by the boards of conservators. They are hoping that that system of control will be abolished under the new Bill which has been promised, and for myself I hope it will be introduced at the earliest possible date. As regards the sea fisheries, there is one great drawback so far as the present system is concerned, and that is, the provision with regard to the method of getting boats. In a great many cases the best qualified fishermen are not able to put down the deposit that is required. That prevents very good men from being able to take advantage of the facilities that are available. I know it is a very difficult problem, and for myself I am not able to offer any solution for it. Under the old system an applicant had to provide two solvent securities. We know from the provisions of the Fisheries Act that governed the granting of loans, that that system was not a success either. For myself, I think that the failure was largely due to the slump in fishing. In that connection, I would like to point out that the slump did not take place since the present Government came into office. It was there before that.

A new system was then tried, and under this system deductions were made from the catches marketed by the Sea Fisheries Association. I do not think it has been a roaring success either. It was an experiment, and, possibly, if there was a protected home market it might prove more successful for our fishermen. The point that I want to direct the Minister's special attention to is this: that there are large numbers of fishermen around the coast who are not in a position to avail of the present facilities because of their inability to put down the deposit. As I have said, I am not able to offer a suggestion to the Minister as to how that difficulty can be got over, but I think it is one to which the fisheries section of his Department should give some attention.

I think it is quite unfair to lambaste the Minister and the present Government for the decline in fishing. The position with regard to herring and mackerel is no new thing. There has been an almost complete break up of the herring industry across the Channel, evidently due to world conditions. I do not think it is true to say, just because there is an obligation on the vast majority of our people to eat fish on one day in the week and more frequently during the Lenten season, that we have a good market here at home for fish. I think that if a comparison be made, and if the figures available were examined, it would be found that the average Englishman eats two or three times more fish than the average Irishman. Hence, I do not think there is much in the argument in regard to the demand that is to be met in the home market. I believe it is true to say that we import about £300,000 worth of fish annually. It is not a huge sum, but at the same time it is not an insignificant sum. However, if we could capture that market it would provide remunerative employment for a great number of our fishermen.

That brings me back to the point I was dealing with earlier — the initial difficulty that so many of our fishermen are up against as regards getting boats. If any radical alterations are going to be made, I think there ought to be some recasting of the Sea Fisheries Association. There ought, for instance, to be more scope for the local point of view to find expression. It would be well, I think, if the association were built up on local lines. It has also been advocated on many occasions that, instead of having a national pool for marketing, you should have something in the way of decentralisation — something on the lines of the Turf Board. If you had that, I think it would do away with a good deal of unnecessary transit costs.

I admit that the whole thing is very difficult. I do not think that the Minister has got very much helpful advice from the Deputies on the opposite side who have spoken. I think they were all conscious of one thing, namely, that the difficulties are great, and that they have not been created by the present Minister: that they were there when the Party opposite was in control. It has to be remembered, of course, that the Sea Fisheries Association was established when that Party was in power. I do not know exactly what the motives were that were behind its establishment, but it seems to me that the then Government and the then Fisheries Department felt that they were not able to deal with the situation and delegated their obligations to a body which was partially controlled by the fishermen's representatives. To a certain extent I believe that was an admission on their part that they could not handle the situation. Therefore, whatever decline there has been in the fishing industry cannot be laid at the door of this Government. This is a matter that requires the co-operation of everyone who is interested in the sea fishing industry and feels that he can contribute some sound concrete help to the solution of the problem. I am quite conscious of the fact that I have not been able to give very much helpful advice in the remarks that I have made, but I do feel that if the facilities for providing our fishermen with boats were made more easily available to them, we would have a greater output of fish. I know that the matter is very difficult, and I know that the Minister will have serious objections from the Department of Finance. If we are not, however, to hand over the industry to large corporations, as has been done in England, and if the industry is to be regarded as one in which the Government has an immediate and direct interest, the obligation will remain on them to come to the aid of the man who has not got any money but who knows the business, and to try to provide him with the necessary facilities for carrying on the industry. If we do improve our catching power, I think we shall have to go further and introduce something in the nature of protection of the home market. That is a thing which we can do. We cannot control the world market for herring or mackerel and I do not know that large expenditure in that direction would be justified in the immediate future. The home market, however, is one which we can control. The difficulties of control will, I know, be very great. Fish, being a perishable commodity, will not be as easy to deal with as other commodities. I sympathise very genuinely with the Minister as regards this branch of his Department. His job is a very difficult one.

Deputies have referred to the marketing system. I believe that great development could take place by the establishment of depôts in the different towns and larger centres of population. At one time, the association did make an attempt at real development by having vans and organisers going through the country. Evidently, they did not get the necessary support and the experiment was not wholly successful. The distribution system should, I think, be developed on the lines I mentioned. Men who know the industry and who have practical experience should be appointed in each centre to establish depôts. These men should be under the supervision of the association and the Department, and an inspector should visit the areas from time to time with a view to seeing that proper conditions obtain. They should see that the fish are marketed in perfect condition and that they are available at a reasonable price. Occasionally, we hear complaints that fish sent from Dingle to Killarney are retailed at an exorbitant figure. My suggestion about the establishment of depôts in the different centres would, I think, be a step in the right direction.

A question was raised about assistance to the fishermen. In Caherciveen and south-western districts the fishermen are part-time and, under normal circumstances, would be entitled to unemployment assistance. The association, if it is intended for the betterment of the industry and of the people engaged in it, should assist the men concerned in this connection. The Department of Industry and Commerce make the case that fishermen engaged in part-time work are not entitled to unemployment assistance. Time and again, we have had to make representations on behalf of fishermen who may have a few hours' employment per week in grading and packing fish at the Point and on the coast. These men should not be deprived of unemployment assistance in proportion to their period of unemployment. The manager of the labour exchange visits the pier to see whether they are employed or not with a view to making reports to deprive them of a small sum which would enable them to exist and purchase the necessaries of life. The association, acting on behalf of the fishermen and the industry, should make representations to the Department of Industry and Commerce with a view to having the position clarified once and for all. These men should get the benefits intended for them, even if they are employed part-time.

I want to make a final appeal to the Minister in regard to the mussel industry. In Cromane, County Kerry, approximately 100 families are dependent on this industry and its claims are outstanding. The State are compelled to subsidise the people of that district by providing them with unemployment assistance. There is no other resort when the industry fails, as it has done in the past. At the moment, the only hope for the industry is the installation of a purification plant. From a business point of view, the money spent in that way would be well spent and, in course of time, would be recouped. It would guarantee the families in that area a livelihood without assistance from the State. Through the erection of this tank, the mussels would be accepted in the different centres in England and the amounts obtained would stabilise the industry and make it a paying proposition, thus enabling 100 families to be taken off unemployment assistance and provided with a livelihood. I know that the Minister has taken more than a passing interest in this matter and that both he and his Department have assisted us in the past, and I hope that this final effort will be made by them.

I have been asked to bring to the notice of the Minister the question of boat-building in Cahirciveen area. When fishermen there apply to the association for grants for new boats, the order is given to Baltimore. The point made by the fishermen in Cahirciveen is that they have men there capable of doing the necessary work and that those concerned could see the boats in process of construction and give the necessary directions if they were built locally. That is a suggested method as against the existing system under which boats ordered from the other centres have been on very many occasions unsatisfactory. In some cases, they have had to be remodelled in order to meet the requirements of the people, simply because the coastline and the breakwater at the Valentia-Cahirciveen harbour require a different type of model altogether. We have made a case already to the association with a view to their giving orders in future to the men in that district who are capable of building boats.

I agree entirely with what Deputy Bartley says with regard to the deposits. The deposit demanded is very high and I think some arrangement might be made to have it on the share system. It is very difficult to make a suggestion at the moment, but if the industry is to exist and if the Department is really anxious to get the best material and the best men into it, it is up to them to devise some system. I think the people in general would agree to grants-in-aid, because it would be money well spent. Why should not the Department of Fisheries, as does the Department of Agriculture, go out on a large scale, on the plea that the people as a whole will appreciate the spending of money by way of subsidising and developing the industry? It should be approached from that angle and I believe there should be some system, as there is in the case of the farmers when the British market is in their favour or against them, whereby the Department would come to the rescue of the fishermen in the slack periods. There should be bounties or subsidies available to tide them over difficult periods and to enable them to carry on development, so that the industry would live and expand itself. Finally, I want to thank the Minister's Department for their efforts on behalf of the fishermen in Cromane and the western districts, and I hope that the suggestions I have made will be found helpful.

I want to draw the attention of the Minister to the state of the fishing industry in County Dublin. For a number of years, the industry there has been on the decline, and there are towns, where, some 15 or 20 years ago, fishing was one of the principal industries, and a big number of people earned their livelihood from it, in which fishing is practically nonexistent at present. When I was a small boy in Rush, fishing was one of the principal industries there, and the same applies to Skerries. In such places as Balbriggan, Loughshinny, Howth and Dun Laoghaire, the industry is on the decline and, generally speaking, it is not in the position in which it ought to be in the county generally. For the first time for eight or ten years, the dispensation during the Lenten season in Dublin, which had been granted for years, was withdrawn this year, and the use of flesh meat at the principal meal on Wednesdays was prohibited. The result was a considerable increase in the consumption of fish. That increase, however, benefited to no extent whatever the suppliers of fish in the various fishing centres in County Dublin. During the Lenten season, this year, five of the six steam trawlers were tied up in the port of Dublin. There were supplied by the Sea Fisheries Association in one week alone in the City of Dublin 300 boxes of fish to the market, and another 300 boxes by privately owned inshore fisheries, but about 1,200 boxes were supplied by Dutch trawlers. The Dublin market is apparently a happy hunting ground for the Dutch trawlers. Whenever I go into Balbriggan, Loughshinny or any of the other places where fishing is carried on, I hear grievances with regard to the landing of fish by Dutch trawlers. What is more pitiful is that our salesmen in the fish market give them a preference, and their stuff is sold first. I think that is a matter the Minister should give his attention to.

I want to refer also to the deplorable condition of the harbours. Balbriggan harbour is unsafe for fishermen at present, and Loughshinny harbour, where there is a good deal of fishing carried on, and a big number of fishermen, is in a deplorable state. Some 14 or 15 months ago the Board of Works decided on a scheme for the improvement of that harbour. A scheme was prepared which would cost about £2,000. The Minister for Finance agreed to give a free gift of £1,000. The application for the loan was sent on by the people who control the harbour, and the Board of Works sent back a letter — I have the correspondence here — saying that it should go to Industry and Commerce. Industry and Commerce had a good look at it, and then sent it on to Agriculture, as the fishing industry was affected. That Department decided that it was a matter for Local Government, and it is with Local Government now. The harbour is still dangerous, and the fishing industry in the area is adversely affected. If the Department is anxious to be of assistance to the fishermen of these places, there are two harbours which are in a very dangerous state, and the Minister should take immediate action with a view firstly, to having improvements carried out or seeing if the Port and Docks Board can be forced to carry out improvements to the harbour in Balbriggan, and secondly, seeing that the scheme which has been prepared in regard to the harbour at Loughshinny is carried out. If there is any further delay the matter will have to be postponed for another year, and this is the proper time to carry out the improvements in Loughshinny. I should be glad if the Minister would give some attention to the condition of those harbours in County Dublin.

There is also another matter to which I should like to refer. Travelling through the country any day in the week one cannot fail to notice how difficult it is to get fresh fish in the shops or hotels. The newspapers arrive in even out-of-the-way places in Ireland at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. You can buy an Irish Press, an Irish Independent, an Irish Times or even the Sporting Chronicle if you want it, but when it comes to the question of making fresh fish available in the towns and villages of Ireland you are told about all classes of obstacles. There is a market here in this country for fresh fish. I am sure there are thousands of people in every county in Ireland who do not eat fresh fish once in 12 months. An amazing quantity of tinned fish is consumed. That would not happen if fresh fish were available. I think something should be done to deal with that problem. Even in County Dublin, when you go 15 or 20 miles away from the fishing centres, it is very difficult to get fresh fish. Of course the market here was glutted during the Lenten season, and is glutted at present, but that is due to the Dutch trawlers coming in here. As far as I can see, the only remedy is to prohibit the importation of foreign fish. There are consignments of fish coming into Dublin on the B. & I. and L.M.S. every day in the week. One public board, of which I myself am a member, advertised for Irish caught fish and could not get it. A Grimsby firm tendered for the supply at half the price quoted by an Irish firm. When asked if they could guarantee that it was Irish caught fish, they could not swear that the fish had been whistling “The Boys of Wexford” before they were caught. I think a good deal could be done with regard to the fishing industry, particularly in my own constituency, and something should also be done with regard to the harbours in County Dublin. I hope the Minister will give particular attention to the harbours at Loughshinny and Balbriggan. I am sure he could take immediate action in regard to Loughshinny harbour. I hope that immediate action will also be taken with reference to the dumping of fish by those Dutch trawlers in the Dublin market. During the Lenten season, when the consumption of fish had trebled, I think it was a disgrace that only one of the six Dublin trawlers was in commission, while the Dutch trawlers were landing immense quantities of fish here. While the men concerned were being deprived of employment, the market here was being glutted, to the detriment of the fishing industry in other parts of County Dublin. Meanwhile, those men were looking for unemployment assistance and outdoor assistance. I respectfully suggest to the Minister that he should give immediate attention to the fishing industry in County Dublin.

The Minister to conclude.

We have heard quite a number of speeches on the subject of the fisheries. Generally speaking, it has been stated over and over again that our fisheries are not in a prosperous condition. I am very sorry to say, however, that we have not got any very good suggestions for dealing with the problem. I may say also that the explanation of some of the matters referred to was more or less ignored. For instance, we all know that the old Dublin Trawling Company has been going rather badly for some time. As a result, some of the boats that had been working for that trawling company were laid off, and naturally fish had to come in during 12 months or so to make up the deficit in our requirements here. To state the fact that there were very big imports of fish during that time does not prove anything. It was due to the fact that the Dublin Trawling Company failed more or less, and the fish had to come in. Now that the Dublin Trawling Company is to be revived by a new company, in all probability that will be made right again. That also, perhaps, is the explanation of the big landings by foreign trawlers. They did not make the landings when the Dublin Trawling Company was operating, but when things became slack, as far as the Dublin Trawling Company was concerned, there was a rather good opportunity on the Dublin market, and those foreign trawlers came along and made landings. That question, as Deputy Fogarty said, is one that must be dealt with, and it will be dealt with. There was no use in dealing with them when we had nobody else to get the fish from. Now that the Dublin Trawling Company is being revived, and will supply our wants as far as they possibly can, of course we will immediately deal with the foreign trawlers.

Deputy Fogarty also referred to the harbours. He told the House of his tour around Dublin from one Department to another to try to get the Loughshinny harbour made right. Where Deputy Fogarty really should have gone was to a body of which he is a member, and that is the Dublin County Council, because everything else would be right if they would do what they were asked to do. They have not done it, and I am sure Deputy Fogarty knows that. Long ago, we in the Department of Agriculture recommended a grant towards the Loughshinny harbour. That grant was agreed to by the other Departments concerned, and the money was ready to be paid out if the county council would do their part. Deputy Fogarty should not raise that matter any more in this House. He should raise it at the Dublin County Council, and then perhaps things will be made right.

I do not think there is anything antagonistic between having an Irish trawling company and protecting the interests of the inshore fishermen. In fact, I think it is the other way around. I do not think we can develop our inshore fisheries properly unless we have a good trawling company operated by an Irish company, because, in my opinion — and I think most Deputies will agree with me — our inshore fishermen will never supply all the fish required in this country for our own needs. They cannot supply certain types and varieties of fish, and therefore we must have a trawling company to supply the deficiency. We cannot properly deal with our markets here until we have a fair supply. Therefore, when we get this trawling company going, we will be able to do better for our inshore fishermen with regard to the protection of the market here.

Instead of the interests being antagonistic, I think that one will benefit the other to a great extent. I should say, at any rate, that the trawling company will benefit the inshore fishermen. The inshore fishermen have nothing whatever to fear from a good strong trawling company operating from Dublin or any other part of the country. In the same way, doubt was raised by Deputy Brasier with regard to the damage that might be done by this trawling company inside our territorial waters. There again there is no danger, because the by-laws which apply will also apply to the Irish company, and the Irish company can be prevented under our present by-laws from doing any damage of that kind.

Deputy Brasier also raised the question of oyster beds. The Minister cannot provide oyster beds, but he can help perhaps in the restocking of these beds. The Sea Fisheries Association will, wherever they think that good work can be done in that way, help to restock the oyster beds in any part of the country where they think there is a reasonable chance of success. But the matter is not altogether in their hands. In fact, I do not know that it is humanly possible to promise success, because a lot depends, during the two or three seasons coming after the beds are restocked, on the weather conditions. If the weather conditions are against us, nothing can save them — all the measures taken will go for nothing. At any rate, the Sea Fisheries Association can be depended upon to do anything they can to help in the restocking of these beds.

Deputy Brasier also raised the question of certain rights in the river Blackwater and that matter was referred to at greater length by Deputy Broderick. I should like to assure Deputy Broderick, because I think he has some doubts on the point, that I am extremely interested in such questions. But I think that this question can be very well debated on the Bill when it comes along. A question was raised as to that Bill. I was told that I had promised it year after year. That is true, but I can say, at any rate, that we are coming nearer to it. I think I can say definitely that Deputies will see it——

In the lifetime of the present Dáil.

Perhaps in the present Session, but certainly in the lifetime of the present Dáil. I do not want to anticipate any debate on that Bill, but I should like to say that it is an extremely complicated Bill. In fact, if Deputies could imagine putting all the Land Acts into one Land Bill and bringing it before the Dáil, they will get some idea of the difficulty in drafting that Bill. I hope, however, that it will come along soon. The question raised by Deputy Brasier can be debated on that Bill. If it is not adequately dealt with when the Bill comes along, certainly I shall be very glad for any help that Deputy Broderick can give me, either in the House or outside.

Deputy O'Neill said that the only thing that was paying was whale fishing. Administratively he is right in that. The only thing that is paying administratively in the Vote is whale fishing, because we have no great interest in whale fishing and naturally want to collect as much in fees as we spend under the Whale Fishing Act. The other things, of course, may not be paying from that point of view, but the point is that the Dáil is voting money by way of subsidy to the other fishery branches. If they are not paying from the administrative point of view, it is because we are trying to help them, so far as we can, by subsidy or in some other way.

Deputy O'Neill spoke of the Sea Fisheries Association, and said it would be better if we had something like the old Congested Districts Board. He did not elaborate that very much. I do not know exactly what Deputy O'Neill had in mind. The only difference I can see really is that if the Sea Fisheries Association were controlled by three or four civil servants you would have much the same organisation as you had in the Congested Districts Board, because they do get money handed over to them to spend to a great extent in the way they think best. I know there is a certain amount of control over them by the Department of Fisheries and by the Department of Finance, but I think that if there was an organisation like the old Congested Districts Board set up there would be a certain amount of control over it by the Department of Finance anyway. I do not know that Deputy O'Neill was actually advocating that we should change the control of the Sea Fisheries Association and put civil servants in charge. I am not saying that that would be a bad idea at all — it might be better. But I think I might be wronging Deputy O'Neill in assuming that that is the change he wanted. I should like, however, if he would come back to that point on some future occasion.

The civil servants did not control the Congested Districts Board.

I do not know what else you would call it. I am talking about the difference between control by civil servants and elected control as you have in the Sea Fisheries Association. In the Sea Fisheries Association you have men elected by the fishermen. The only difference I can see in a body like the Congested Districts Board is that we would remove these elected men and put paid men, whether civil servants or not, in charge.

I am afraid the Minister has not got the conception of the Congested Districts Board that I have.

I may not have, and I should like the Deputy on a future occasion to elaborate the point further. I am not trying in any way to take any unfair advantage of the Deputy. I am anxious to get any useful suggestions I can on fishery matters, particularly with regard to the Sea Fisheries Association, because it does appear not to have worked as satisfactorily as we expected. If I could get any useful suggestions with regard to the working of the association, I should be very glad, because I do believe that the idea of a body like that is good — that we should have a body like that working it rather than have the Department working it.

With regard to developing an export trade in fresh fish, there seems to be some possibility in that. I think from time to time from this on we may export fresh fish. For instance, if the Dublin Trawling Company grows big and does well, it is quite possible that on occasions, at any rate, they will land more fish than would be required here, and they would therefore do an export trade. If, in course of time, this experiment of trying an export market proved successful, we can visualise them enlarging their fleet still further and going into the export market properly.

With regard to getting some international agreement as to territorial waters, of course these things are always under consideration. As Deputy O'Neill realises, it is a matter of getting agreement. We are not in a position to force the Spaniards or the French or the British or any other country to adopt our point of view. All we can do is to negotiate the matter and try to get them to see our point of view. If we can get them to see our point of view, we make the agreement accordingly.

As to the marketing of herrings, we did get a quota from Germany. Of course, what Deputy McMenamin says is just nonsense. We cannot compel the Germans to take the herrings at our price. We can, to a great extent, in dealing with them say that a trade agreement is not very acceptable to us unless we get a quota for herrings. We did say that, of course, and we got a quota. But we cannot go any further than that. If our exporters of salt herrings wish to send them to Germany we cannot say to the Germans: "You must give a better price than you are offering." If they take our herrings, they will take them at a certain price — the prevailing price in Germany. If our exporters are not satisfied with that price, I do not see what we can do. The British are up against the same thing. They have a large quota for herrings in Germany and when they offer herrings the price is not very attractive and therefore they are not filling the quota. The same thing applies to us. I do not see that we can do more than get the quota. We certainly cannot go to the Germans and say: "You must give a better price." All this talk from Deputy McMenamin is, to say the least of it, uninformed. I should like to know whether Deputy McMenamin knows of any large quantities of salt herrings in this country that are not sold. I think we got rid of our herrings all right last year.

As Deputy O'Neill stated, a good market, in fact the only market for mackerel, is the United States of America, but there again, on account of their regulations, they will add to their tariffs whatever we may pay by way of subsidy on our exports, so that we must accept the price they give us. We did try that. We thought our fishermen were not getting a fair price and we offered to pay a subsidy on the export of mackerel, but when we found that the United States would increase the tariff by the amount of our subsidy, we saw that we would be really only contributing the amount of the subsidy to the revenue of the United States. Seeing that the United States is the only market, the fishermen must take whatever price the United States are prepared to pay for mackerel, and we cannot do any better.

It was stated also that fish were landed from foreign trawlers while our own herrings were unsaleable. I have already dealt with that point. We hope to deal with these foreign trawlers in the near future. With regard to tinned fish, to which Deputy O'Neill referred, there will always be a certain quantity of tinned fish imported into this country. We went fairly deeply into that subject when we were dealing with the subject of tariffs on fish coming in here and we found, as far as we investigated the matter, that you cannot regard fresh and tinned fish as being interchangeable; that one person may want tinned fish while another person may want fresh fish. You cannot say that fresh fish is always a substitute for tinned fish. It is not a substitute. Some people like to have tinned fish in the house and it is a cheap article of diet. For various reasons, you cannot regard fresh fish as being a substitute for it. If we are to allow people, within reasonable limits, to get what they want, we must allow in tinned fish. In dealing, therefore, with the question of imports and exports of fish, tinned fish should really be kept out of Deputies' calculations in making their comparisons. I might say further that, so long as it comes in at all, whether it comes from a country 100 miles away or 4,000 miles away does not matter.

The matter of the codification of our by-laws for the protection of our fisheries is a question that we have considered on many occasions but it is very difficult to catch up on these matters. We are generally so busily engaged in framing new laws that we have not time to go back on the existing laws. I think it would be an exceedingly useful thing if codification of the old laws were carried out.

With regard to a State brand for mackerel, that is a matter which could be brought into operation without any delay, but I do not know if the present trade would warrant it. If it does, of course we can see to it. I think I have already dealt with the point raised by Deputy Broderick with regard to inland fisheries.

Coming to the question of the mussel tank, raised by Deputy Kelly and by Deputy Flynn, that is a matter that has come up here also on practically every occasion that the Vote for Fisheries has been debated. I think Deputies who are interested in fisheries are generally aware of the position in regard to it, that it is not altogether under our control. If we want to export mussels they must be passed by the medical officer of health of the district where they are sold, whether they are sent to Great Britain or elsewhere. A certificate issued by my Department that the mussels are clean and in good condition is not sufficient, because the medical officer of whatever district they are sent to, must be satisfied also that the mussels are all right. Unfortunately, where you have a number of individuals like that to deal with, it makes it harder to get over all the various difficulties. We have, however, been dealing with the matter, and I think we are now in a position to go ahead with the construction of a tank. Of course, I should say it is a matter for the Sea Fisheries Association, and Deputies who are interested might get into touch with the Sea Fisheries Association to see what is being done. I do not know if Deputy Kelly would be as pleased as Deputy Flynn, or the Leas-Cheann Comhairle with the location of the tank.

Some Deputies drew attention to the comparative failure of salmon fisheries this year. I think nobody did blame the Government for that, and I do not think that I could agree that it is due to poaching or to leaving rivers unprotected. It is probably entirely due to weather conditions and to the fact that water levels were so low for a considerable part of the year. Deputies will remember that there was an extremely good season last year, and there could not be such a great difference between one season and another entirely due to poaching. It must be almost entirely due to the low level of the water, and, of course, that is a thing over which we have no control.

Deputy McMenamin raised a number of points, but only just a few that are worthy of attention. He asked about the new boat. The new boat is armed, of course, but, seeing the precedent established in another House recently, I think I should not give any details as to the size of the guns. It is armed, and it is able to deal with any poacher that comes along. It has dealt with five or six recently, and it is doing its job very well. The Deputy in a very solemn way said that he had discovered the real cause of the failure of the fisheries. He says that the real cause is that the Minister has not taken any steps to procure a market. I have dealt fairly fully with the steps that have been taken. What can we do further? We have, as I have said, in every trade agreement, insisted as far as we could in getting a quota for fish of the particular class that we would like to get rid of. Under the recent Agreement with Great Britain, there is free entry for fresh fish. There has always been a good market there, at any rate for salmon and for shell fish. We send our herrings to Germany and to Russia. We have got a quota from Germany. We have not got any quota from Russia, but we have not got any herrings on hands. The only available market for mackerel at the moment is the U.S.A., and I have already dealt with that.

While I may not have succeeded in getting a market, I would like Deputy McMenamin to know, at least, I tried. If he has discovered the real cause of the failure of the fisheries here, he has not stated it as fairly as he could have done. He said that the Sea Fisheries Association had no authority to deal with marketing. That shows a great lack of knowledge of the objects of the Sea Fisheries Association, because the principal object was to market the fish of its members. One who spoke with such an air of knowledge should not have made that mistake. I want to ask Deputy McMenamin where are the cured herrings that cannot be marketed. I was informed some time ago that we had got rid of any cured herrings we had since last year. I do not believe there are any there now. The Deputy asked what powers the manager of the association had. He has general powers to deal with all routine matters. Without some sort of a note I could not tell the exact powers, but he has the general power that a manager would have. He deals with the staff, and generally with the marketing, and consults and takes orders from the directors as to the policy to be pursued. From that point of view, as far as the powers of the manager go, I think the association is working on satisfactory lines and may have a fair chance of succeeding. The main duty of the association is to market the fish of the members, and naturally the manager would carry out that duty.

The fact that a trawler was caught within a three-mile limit does not prove at all that the protection boats are not doing their duty. I stated last year that if that were admitted, then, because a man gets drunk, that is complete proof that the police are not doing their duty. That would be a ridiculous argument to put forward. After all, they have caught a certain number. Is it that they have not done their duty because these trawlers are there and are caught? The point is whether foreign trawlers are keeping out. I think everyone admits that they are not seen so often. They may be seen occasionally, but they are not seen so often in territorial water. These protection boats are doing their duty, to a large extent. Deputy Linehan, in his opening statement, said that he presumed to know nothing about fisheries. I admire the Deputy's modesty. It is a pity others were not nearly as modest. I do not think the Deputy's solution or reasoning correct. He stated that we have a day of abstinence once a week for practically the entire population. That is true, but I think that is against us from the fisheries point of view, because all who consume fish should not get it on one day. The result is that they do not like fish any other day. If we could get our fishermen to supply the population here with fish on Fridays, then there would be a fast for the other six days, because the people only buy fish on the one day of the week.

Surely the population do not get it even on one day.

I think it is because there is consumption of fish on one day weekly that our fishermen are at a great disadvantage. There is no great consumption on the other days.

If that is so we should sell fish on no day.

That presumes getting a big number to eat fish on one day, and it is very difficult to do that.

According to that argument we might as well drop the whole thing.

No, there is a certain consumption on other days, but it is not a big consumption like Fridays. With regard to the mortality in the river Blackwater, I have not heard about that recently. The question of pollution from the beet factories has been under observation from the very beginning. As a matter of fact, we have had inspectors on that work from the time the beet factories were built. If Deputies look at the Acts dealing with these factories they will find that certain powers were given as regards fisheries, and they were compelled to have filter beds, and to take certain precautions against letting these effluences into the rivers. We have been taking samples since the factories were built, and, as far as possible, we are watching the position. There may have been at one time a certain amount of mortality, and perhaps it may have been due to that cause, but we are taking every precaution. I do not think great damage was done. The position has been very closely watched. With regard to a point about mill races raised by Deputy Linehan, if there is not a guard on a particular mill race, or whatever it may be, the boards of conservators are not doing their duty. If the Deputy will report any particular case to my Department I will see that it is attended to.

A question was raised about unemployment assistance for fishermen. That was raised previously, and is more properly one for the Minister for Industry and Commerce. However, I should like to state the position. If a fisherman is the owner of a boat, and is fishing for his own benefit, he is classed in just the same way as a small farmer, a business man, or a shopkeeper. He is treated exactly the same way as they are treated as regards unemployment assistance. On the other hand, if he is employed, or is paid a weekly wage or commission, he is treated as an employee. Fishermen are not treated differently from any other class. They are treated exactly the same as others for unemployment assistance. If Deputies are advocating that they are not treated fairly, then we would have to put clauses into unemployment assistance legislation giving them special privileges. They are not victimised. The question is whether they should get special privileges. I want to deal now with a point raised by Deputy Bartley, and that concerns Galway Bay, and drifting for salmon by the Claddagh fishermen. I came up against that position before and, as far as I recollect, it is an extremely difficult one from two points of view. I promise the Deputy to call for a report and to examine the matter in the near future.

Vote put and agreed to.
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