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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 1938

Vol. 73 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Red Cross Bill, 1938—Second Stage.

I move:—"That the Red Cross Bill, 1938, be now read a Second Time." The main purpose of this Bill is to provide for the establishment of an Irish Red Cross Society. I think that at the moment we are the only State in Europe without such a society. I suppose that, in the main, Deputies understand the nature of the work done by such societies. The origin of these societies was that in 1863 there was a conference at Geneva representing 16 European States. These representatives met with the idea of working out a scheme for the coordination of the work of societies and groups that had for their object the relief of the wounded in war. That particular conference had no power to give effect to their recommendations, but a second conference was immediately called by the Swiss Federal Council, and accredited representatives of different Governments came to that conference. That conference resulted in the signing of the Geneva Convention of 1864.

The principal articles of that convention provided for the acceptance of the principle that the sick and wounded, the medical and auxiliary services of armies, ambulances, hospitals, and so on, were to be regarded as neutral at all times and in all circumstances. The red cross on a white ground was adopted as the international emblem of this neutrality, and it was agreed that this emblem should be used not only by the army medical services, but also by duly recognised relief societies constituted to act as auxiliaries for the army medical services. These societies came to be known generally as Red Cross Societies. The Red Cross Societies are linked up in an international organisation governed by the International Red Cross Committee.

National Red Cross Societies are affiliated, provided that certain conditions are fulfilled. Societies seeking recognition must themselves be recognised by the Governments of their own countries as an auxiliary to the army medical services, and only one such society is accepted from each country. The society must accept the principle of moral union with the International Committee and moral union with the other societies linked up by the International Committee. Each society must undertake to maintain a continuous relationship with the other societies and the International Committee. Each society is free to adopt the organisation most suitable for its own country. It must be formed so as not to exclude any appropriate branch of medical work in connection with the fighting forces, and it must be open to all the nationals of the country without any distinction, and in particular without distinction of sex, religion, or political opinions.

Since the adoption of the first convention, two other conventions have been signed, one in 1906 and another in 1929, and they were intended to supplement and bring up to date the agreements of the first convention in 1864. We are parties to the convention of 1929, which we signed with certain reservations to which Section 5 (3) of the Bill relates. These conventions aim at protecting the use of the Red Cross symbol. The States parties to the conventions undertook to legislate to make it unlawful and to penalise any unauthorised person or body using the symbol, and also to forbid the use of the Geneva symbols themselves, that is, the white cross on the red ground. The red cross on the white ground was adopted as a compliment to the Swiss Federation, whose national emblem was the white cross on the red ground, Either set of symbols is forbidden by these conventions; the use of them for any other purpose excepting for the purpose of the Red Cross is forbidden. The object was to prevent any imitation, and to protect the emblem of the Swiss Federation.

Besides, its work for the sick and wounded in war and for prisoners of war, the Red Cross has many peace-time activities. The States members of the League agree to "encourage and promote the establishment and cooperation of duly authorised voluntary national Red Cross organisations having as purposes the improvement of health, the prevention of disease and the mitigation of suffering throughout the world," and these latter objects may be said to be the normal peace-time activities of Red Cross Societies.

Reference to the reports of National Red Cross Societies indicates how magnificently these peace-time activities are being pursued. In America following on the Ohio-Mississippi Valley flood of 1937, the American Red Cross sheltered over 1,000,000 persons in refugee centres while their homes and personal belongings were inundated and whose belongings were destroyed, and at the same time a National Relief Fund amounting to 25,000,000 dollars was quickly raised by the Red Cross to carry out the necessary emergency measures of relief and rehabilitation. The Swedish Red Cross operate throughout the entire country a child welfare organisation. The British Red Cross Society have a special clinic for rheumatism and a blood transfusion service. The Canadian Red Cross Societies have organised first-aid posts on the highways, maintain hospitals in remote districts and conduct-nutrition classes. The foregoing are only a few examples of the works which the various Red Cross Societies of the countries quoted undertake and have been selected mainly to indicate the diversity of activities of National Red Cross Societies generally. In our own country we have had in recent years disasters which, relatively speaking, caused much loss and suffering to some of our own people. I have in mind the Arranmore disaster and the Scottish Bothy disaster for which it was necessary to establish ad hoc committees to raise relief funds. Disasters of this nature would fall to be dealt with by our Irish Red Cross Society if such had existed.

In conclusion I would like to stress an aspect of the Red Cross organisation and that is, that each national society is a voluntary organisation and must rely on public support for funds. Deputies will appreciate that there is in every country a vast field in the alleviation of human suffering which cannot possibly be covered by Governmental services. The establishment of a Red Cross Society will go a long way to supplementing the Government's efforts in this direction. We expect that when the society is established there will be a generous response from our people both in regard to subscriptions and voluntary service.

The details of the Bill can be better examined in the Committee Stage. The marginal headings give the substance of the several paragraphs. First you have the establishment of the Red Cross Society. Powers are given by Order to establish such a society. Secondly, you have the provision that grants and loans may be made to this society. You have power to authorise voluntary aid societies to render assistance to the ordinary medical service. That is a recognition which really constitutes and gives the fundamental character of the Red Cross Society. Then there is the paragraph providing for restriction on the use of the Red Cross and on the use of the arms of the Swiss Confederation. The next section provides for penalties for offences and disposition of forfeited goods. One of the penalties is forfeiture of the goods. Finally, there is the repeal of the Geneva Convention Act of 1911, and there is the establishment of the society here. I recommend this Bill to the House.

I would have liked to have heard the Taoiseach, when introducing this Bill, pay some little tribute to the work that has been done in this country for the last 18 years by the St. John Ambulance Brigade, the Irish Red Cross Organisation, though not officially recognised, receiving no loans and no grants and having no Government Committee. All that time it has been acting as a purely voluntary organisation, and, as far as it could, doing work of the type done by the organisation which we propose to establish under this Bill. In the various countries associated with and recognising the Convention of Geneva, there are many countries that call their organisation the Red Cross organisation of that particular country. The St. John Ambulance Association is an association recognised by the Geneva Convention and is the official organisation of very many countries. It has been doing work of this kind for 15 or 16 years mainly in and about the cities. It is not wide-flung; it is not known as far as I know in the rural counties. But at least we have it as a very healthy framework on which to build.

I would like to know, if this Bill is passed, what is the intention of the Government? Will it establish a completely new organisation or does the Government intend to build on the organisation that is here at the moment? It would strike me as being an act of national ingratitude, if we were to throw aside the organisation that has been functioning without grant and without official recognition, without loans, but as far as it can with the voluntary assistance of workers in factories, and in the bigger type of business, of workers, male and female, who give their time to take out lessons in first-aid and give their services helping the other members of the community. It would strike me as being base ingratitude if we were to throw them on one side now and establish a new organisation under completely new auspices. I would like an assurance on that particular point. I think that the work done in the purely voluntary field without looking for any aid or assistance, has been well and competently done. The St. John Ambulance Brigade has held the field and done the job when there were no Government loans or Government grants. Doubtless now, with Government patronage, Government grants and Government loans, there will be hundreds of volunteers anxious to do the work, none of whom were anxious to do it when there was no kudos attached to the work. I do not know the persons who constitute the managing committee of that organisation. But at athletic fixtures, in the streets of the capitals, at large race meetings and assemblies of such character, there were continuously available the voluntary services rendered by that organisation. Now that we are officially to recognise, nationally and internationally, an Irish organisation, and with Government assistance, extend it throughout the Twenty-Six Counties, I strongly urge that it be an extension of the organisation which has been doing the work when there were no grants or loans or patronage available.

I am very glad that Deputy O'Higgins has repaired an omission of mine by paying a tribute to the work being done by the St. John Ambulance organisation. Those of us who have been living in the cities know the work done by that organisation, but, on the other hand, I am not sufficiently acquainted with the work done by the Minister up to the moment in foreshadowing the way in which this new organisation is to be formed, to be able to say definitely on what basis he is going to found it. All we are concerned here with at the moment is the power to establish such an organisation. I take it that he will, like anybody else who is going to build up an organisation, have due regard to what exists, to the nucleus of the organisation which exists. It is possible that that may not be found sufficiently wide for the purpose we have in mind here, but I feel confident that, in examining the situation, due regard will be had to the existing organisation.

If the organisation is formed for certain work, I do not think they will mind very much what form it takes, provided the work is being done. I do not know that they are out for credit, so to speak. I believe that the organisation is designed for humanitarian work, and so long as their opportunities for carrying out that work are not restricted in any way, I do not think there will be any complaint if the particular scheme suggested by Deputy O'Higgins were not actually operated. I am not quite sure whether his suggestion is that the organisation should be called straight off "The Irish Red Cross Society" or not; but if the Minister were to work on a broader basis, having due regard to the work being done by this organisation, I do not think that either the members or the directors of the organisation would have any ground for complaint. Their purpose is to get certain work done, and so long as they are not denied the opportunity of getting it done, and if a wider field is opened to them and to others, it seems to me that it should meet their deepest wishes. However, I am unfortunately not in a position of knowing enough about the preliminary work, and it is only preliminary work at this stage, which the Minister has been doing to be able to say exactly what is the basis on which he proposes to establish the society.

The Taoiseach will agree that it leaves Deputies in rather a difficulty. We are asked to pass a Bill to give powers to the Minister to do certain things, either, as I suggest, to carry on and extend the organisation which is already there, or to abolish that organisation and to place something new in its place. It is a perfectly legitimate question in discussing such a Bill to ask which is to be done and what is the intention. The Taoiseach says, and I accept it, that he himself does not know what the intention is, but the Department over which he is presiding temporarily must have a record of the intention behind this Bill. It would not introduce a Bill without having made up its mind what it was going to do the day after. The intention must be there in black and white, and it is reasonable to ask that the full intention be disclosed to the Dáil before we are asked to commit ourselves to this.

I feel sure that there are Deputies like myself who would very heartily welcome official recognition for, and extension of, an organisation which has done highly valuable work and, on the other hand, would strongly oppose the throwing aside of that organisation in order to start a brand new organisation, no matter what it was called. A change of name is not in any way necessary under the Geneva Convention. The organisation recognised by the Geneva Convention as the organisation of Éire could be the Irish branch of the St. John's Ambulance Association. It is not necessary even to change the name. A change of name means more in most cases than just a change of name and, personally, I would never subscribe to putting through a Bill that was going to brush aside and repudiate an organisation which had done such work under such conditions and without any assistance, in order to replace it by some new organisation that starts under quite different circumstances with official support, financial and otherwise. I think we are entitled to know what is the intention.

Perhaps it is my fault that more information is not available to the House on the matter. I may say I am largely responsible for pressing that this organisation should be formed in my capacity as Minister for External Affairs. I was approached two or three times in my visits to Geneva and asked when was Ireland going to come into line and establish an Irish Red Cross Society. I was reminded of the convention to which we were a party back in 1929 and to which we did not seem to have, so far, given any effect. I urged the Department of Defence that they should follow up their signature to the convention of 1929 by establishing here a Red Cross society. The details of the basis on which the organisation should be built for the moment did not concern me. Even as Minister responsible for bringing this in, I did not deal with it because I felt that, assuming we were prepared to establish such a society, and I did not think we were going to have any objection to its establishment, the Dáil was safeguarded by the fact that the Order establishing the organisation, its powers, its personnel and constitution, would have to be laid on the Table of the House, and if any Deputy, or Deputies, objected to the character of the organisation which it was proposed to establish, they would have their opportunity of getting the matter discussed again by the Dáil. However, Deputy O'Higgins has approached it from a point of view I did not anticipate, that is, a fundamental objection to founding the society at all.

That is not so. It is a fundamental objection to a pig in a poke.

There is no pig in a poke, because the Order has to come before the Dáil. It is quite clear. It is provided for here.

All that the Deputy asked for was the normal courtesy associated with the introduction of a Bill, and that is to name the intention at the back of it. That is usual.

In so far as intentions are indicated I think they were indicated by me: that we intended founding an Irish Red Cross Society of which, and of the type of work which it does, there are examples all over the world, and the establishment of that organisation has to be based on an Order which has to come before the House.

Which cannot be altered or amended.

Yes, it can be sent back. The Dáil can compel an amendment or alteration. If the Deputy objects to the Order, as laid before the House, he can point out the reasons for his objection and what points he has to put forward in support of his objection, and if he has the support of a sufficient number of Deputies, then it would be a quite clear indication to the Government or to the Minister who made the Order that the Order has to be amended in that respect. Therefore, I think it is not a pig in a poke; but I certainly did understand him to say—and that is a point on which we should have to have division, I am afraid—that if there were any intention here of forming a Red Cross society independent of, or other than, the St. John's Ambulance Organisation, he would oppose it. I have said to him, and have given the only guarantee I can give, that the existing organisations and what they have been doing, and their equipment for the work, and what the Red Cross Society will do in the future, will all be examined; and must be examined by anybody who is going to establish an organisation of this kind, and that due regard will be had to that. I do not know enough at the moment about the organisation—its type and so on—to satisfy myself that it would in fact, as it stands, by some slight extension, be the proper basis on which to build a new society. I could not commit myself—at any rate, at this stage—nor could I commit the Minister for whom I am acting, to such a course, but the Deputy will have his opportunity of pressing that case when the Order is made. I will go further in that connection and will try to get further information on that particular point before the Committee Stage of the Bill in order to try to see what advance has been made in designing the new organisation. Very often, however, an enabling measure of this sort is passed without the intention to follow it up next day. By the establishment of the organisation you can take things in order, and this is necessary no matter what organisation is going to be founded.

I am satisfied, but is the Taoiseach not aware that the St. John's Ambulance Organisation, as constituted in this country on similar lines, is recognised as the organisation in other countries?

It is possible, but I am not certain.

It may be only in the abstract, but it is in the book.

I know that other organisations can be recognised.

Question: "That the Bill be read a Second Time"—agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 16th November.
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