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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 1939

Vol. 74 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 67—External Affairs.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £1,745 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1939, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha, agus Seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin (Uimh. 16 de 1924).

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £1,745 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1939, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for External Affairs, and of certain Services administered by that Office (No. 16 of 1924).

This Supplementary Estimate calls for provision being made under four new sub-heads. I propose to deal with these in order.

Sub-head A (7)—Expenses of withdrawal of volunteers of Irish nationality from Spain. The sum of £400 provided for under sub-head A (7) is required to meet the cost of withdrawing a number of volunteers of Irish nationality from Spain, in accordance with arrangements made, towards the end of last year, by the Non-Intervention Committee. As a member of the Non - Intervention Committee, we agreed to the withdrawal plan drawn up by the committee last July. The plan embodied a scheme whereby combatants of other than Spanish nationality engaged on one side or the other in the Spanish civil conflict would be gradually withdrawn from Spain. It was found impossible to put the withdrawal plan into operation in the exact form in which it had been approved by the committee; but, when a limited arrangement on similar lines was put into operation at the end of last year, we agreed to fall in with it so far as volunteers of Irish nationality who had left this country for Spain after the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War, were concerned. Under this arrangement, we became responsible for the cost of transferring the men concerned from the Spanish frontier to this country. The cost is estimated at about £10 per man. So far, 18 volunteers have been returned to this country under the scheme, and the total number to be transferred is not expected to exceed 30.

Sub - head A (8) — Contribution towards the Expenses of the Inter-Governmental Committee on the Austro-German Refugee Question. The sum of £195 provided for in sub-head A (8) is required to meet our contribution towards the expenses of the Inter-Governmental Committee on Austro-German Refugees. The committee owes its existence to the conference which met at Evian last summer, on the invitation of the United States Secretary of State, to discuss ways and means of dealing with the refugee problem. Ireland was one of the 30 Governments represented at the conference, which, after a week's deliberation, decided to set up this standing committee, which has its headquarters in London and the Chairman of which is an American, Mr. Rublee. The functions of the committee are to undertake negotiations with the Governments concerned with a view to improving the conditions under which the exodus of refugees from certain countries is taking place, and with a view to developing opportunities for permanent settlement. The work of the Inter-Governmental Committee necessitates a secretarial staff, the cost of which is divided among the Governments represented on the committee on a basis of so many units each, very much as is done in the League of Nations. Our contribution is ten units out of a total of 571 units. In addition to our contribution to the expenses of this committee, provision is made in the present Estimate for our share of the expenses of the Evian Conference itself. Our share of these expenses amounts to 280 Swiss francs, say, £14.

Sub - head A (9)—Contribution towards the Expenses of the International Commission for the Assistance of Child Refugees in Spain. The sum of £2,000 provided for under this sub-head is required to enable the Government to make a contribution to the funds of an international organisation set up for the purpose of relieving the terrible privations which thousands of children in Spain are suffering in consequence of the civil war. The commission is an entirely international body with its headquarters at Geneva. It co-ordinates the work of a number of bodies such as the "Save the Children International Union", the "Friends' Service Council", and other official and voluntary relief organisations concerned with the provision of shelter, food and clothing for children in Spain rendered homeless as a result of the civil conflict in that country. The objects of the commission are exclusively humanitarian. Its work covers the whole of Spain. Reports received in the Department testify to the enormity of its task and the value of the work it is doing. The International Commission carried out its work with the help of a fund to which a large number of Governments (including the Australian, Belgian, Danish, French, British, Italian, New Zealand, Norwegian, South African, and Swedish) have already contributed. The British Government has contributed £60,000; the Australian £2,500, the Swedish £88,000, the United States Government gave a contribution in kind of £50,000 and Canada has, so far, given £2,000. As Deputies will see by the note attached to the Estimate, a first contribution of £1,000 has already been made on behalf of this country out of the Contingency Fund. This amount will be repaid to the Contingency Fund out of the present provision of £2,000. Since this Estimate was framed, the situation in Spain, has, of course, assumed an entirely new aspect. Areas which were previously the centre of war-like operations are now under the control of the Nationalist Government, and food supplies, the lack of which caused the distress which it is the business of the International Commission to relieve, may, therefore, soon be restored to normal. The Estimate provides, however, for a further contribution of £1,000 being made if it should appear that conditions involving further calls on the commission's resources continue to exist.

Sub-head A (10) — Promotion of Cultural Relations with Other Countries. The provision of £150 under sub-head A (10) marks the beginning of an effort to make our national culture more widely known and appreciated abroad, particularly in America. The plans for our participation in this year's New York Fair provide for exhibits explaining our cultural traditions and the results which contemporary efforts to restore a national culture in this country have already achieved. It is proposed to supplement this section of our exhibit at the World's Fair by an arrangement enabling three or four lecturers to visit the United States this year to lecture on different aspects of our national culture, past and present. Consideration is also being given to a further arrangement whereby the works of eminent Irish scholars and writers, such, for example, as the publications of the Irish Manuscripts Commission, would be brought directly under the notice of the American librarians, with a view to the strengthening of the Irish sections in university and other libraries in the United States. The arrangement would provide in each case for the payment of travelling and subsistence expenses on the usual official scale, subject to a certain maximum expenditure. The present Estimate is required to cover the cost, in the current financial year, of an arrangement on these lines in the case of Dr. Seamus Delargy, Hon. Director of the Irish Folklore Commission. One or two other similar arrangements are in contemplation. The effort to be made in the present year is intended to be only a beginning. It is hoped, however, that it will lay the foundations for an organisation for the development of cultural relations between this country and the United States on a permanent footing. The development of such relations should be regarded as one of the most important of a State's external activities. Most Governments devote a considerable amount of money and attention to this kind of work. Apart from other considerations, it tends to promote trade and foster tourist traffic. There are the further advantages in our case that it would tend in time to stimulate higher scholarship here and promote the wider circulation of official publications such as those of the Irish Manuscripts Commission. While it is thus a matter in which the Government is justified in giving a lead, success will depend, in a final analysis, on the degree of effort and support forthcoming from other than official sources.

The total provision required under the four sub-heads is £2,745. Against this total, there is to be set off savings amounting to sub-head B (1) (Salaries, Wages and Allowances) of the Vote for External Affairs for the current financial year. The net supplementary provision required, therefore, is £1,745.

As it is a matter in which Deputies have from time to time evinced a keen interest, I think I should avail of this occasion to refer to our recognition of the Nationalist Government in Spain. As the Deputies will have learned, the Irish Government on Saturday last, the 11th February, recognised General Franco's Government as the Government of Spain. When speaking in this House on the 27th November, 1936, on the question of recognition, I said:

"If you recognise a new Government you should recognise it when there is some clear indication of stability, some clear indication that the Government will be able to speak on behalf of the nation of which it is the Government.... As a prudent rule recognition is not given before there is a fair hope of stability."

After the recent events in Spain, it became apparent that the establishment of General Franco's authority over the whole of Spain was only a question of a short time. Further resistance could not, it appeared to us, affect the result, and further delay in recognition might only tend to encourage the continuance of a vain struggle involving further loss of life. The question we had to ask ourselves was this: Was General Franco's authority now definitely paramount in Spain or was it likely to be so in the immediate future? If we came to the affirmative conclusion, as we did, then our duty was to give immediate recognition. Once he had reached a position of supreme authority or a position which was potentially that, the question of non-intervention was no longer at issue and the de facto Government of Spain acquired a natural right to be recognised in law as the Government of that country.

I take it, we are in order in discussing this statement?

I think so. Normally, that would not have been in order, but, once the Taoiseach has opened the matter, it can now be discussed.

I might explain that as it is a matter of current interest, and as it was a matter upon which Deputies on the opposite benches particularly had evinced an interest, I thought it right, as a matter of courtesy to the House, to mention it in connection with External Affairs.

I quite understand the attitude of the Taoiseach, and I thank him for conveying this to the House. I would have appreciated it more if it had come directly to the House like this rather than come through the channels of the newspapers, as it did in a general kind of way last Saturday. I do appreciate the fact that the Taoiseach makes this formal announcement to the House. I must admit that the Whip of our Party had a question on this matter which was to be answered yesterday. I do not say—far be it from me to say so— that that had the slightest influence on the Government's decision about the recognition. I would be very slow to believe that. Nothing that we could urge would help the recognition. But possibly the announcement on Saturday, when it was stated in the Press that Deputy Peadar Doyle had a question on recognition—had not the time come for the recognition of Franco's Government—had some effect. Before this question could be put to the House we had a hasty announcement—I hope I am not contradicting myself—all too long delayed, from the Department of External Affairs—or was it from the Government Publicity Department, which I would like to see occasionally doing something?

As the House knows, we have pressed for this recognition for a long time and, very belated though it is, we certainly are glad that the Government at last have made up their minds to recognise, as I gather from the Taoiseach, the Government of General Franco, at least as the de facto Government. I did not gather, and I think he will agree that I may be excused if I did not gather, whether there was an indication that he was recognising it as a de jure Government. I think the Taoiseach said it might be natural to recognise the persons who had become the de facto Government, but whether he is recognising them as a de jure Government——

I did. I mentioned the words "to be recognised in law."

I did not catch the words that he was recognising it as the de jure Government. Do I understand that that involves the formal withdrawal of our representative to the previous Government?

I do not think there is any necessity for a formal withdrawal.

Are we in this position then, that our representative is still accredited to the head of the State with which Dr. Negrin is connected? It is so very hard to phrase a question of this kind, because our ambassador is accredited to the head of one State. Is he still accredited to him and at the same time accredited to Franco? I gather from the Taoiseach that if there has been no formal withdrawal, our representative is no longer accredited to the Government that have control in Madrid and Valencia. Though the position is a little obscure, that is at least an advance and, so far as we on this side of the House are concerned, we greet it.

The Taoiseach said that by the end of last week it had become clear that in reality Franco was in effective command in the greater portion of Spain and anything that would be done by the other side would not change the situation. I might say that to a number of people who have followed European affairs it was equally clear by last Saturday, or by the end of last week, that a certain number of other Governments, who shall be nameless— I do not want to introduce any element of controversy into this debate—were also making up their minds to recognise the Government of Franco, and it might strike a suspicious person—I am not one, luckily—that, just as the Department of External Affairs hurried into the Press to forestall Deputy Doyle's question, our Government was hurriedly acting, so that nobody could possibly accuse them that they were following the example of bigger Governments. They were following them, so to speak, beforehand, judging by the information coming through the Press for the last week. At last we have recognition. We cannot claim the credit for it, but we can say that we advocated this quite a considerable time ago and we think it would have been well for the fame of this country had the step been taken then. It is now taken, when it can no longer be denied. There, again, I think we are following the example of other countries that possibly might like to retrace some of the steps they have taken in the last couple of years.

There are other matters dealt with in this Vote. I will take the last first, namely, the one for the promotion of culture. I think everybody will be in full agreement with the Taoiseach in connection with that particular matter. If I were making any criticism at all, it would be that this provision is too small, and I do not think that would be a fair criticism, because I understood from the President that this is only a first step; that it is, so to speak, an earnest of what may develop into something larger. I think the £150 is meant only to cover certain expenses up to the 31st March this year, and therefore any criticism on account of the smallness of the amount would be out of place. I gathered that there would be further development in this direction. Even if you limit it to one of the things mentioned by the Taoiseach, the sending of four lecturers to America, it is quite obvious that £150 would not cover the expenses of four men delivering lectures in America unless that amount were supplemented by the proceeds from the lectures, and, I presume, that is not the intention. I want to say, simply, that we welcome it very sincerely.

Just before that there is an item of £2,000, and in connection with that I confess that I am in a certain amount of doubt owing to the use of the word "refugee." From the information that is conveyed in the White Paper, giving the details of the Estimate, I understood that the word "refugee" meant a refugee from Spain, but I gather that is not so. Perhaps the Taoiseach would enlighten us. It is exceedingly difficult to discuss an Estimate of this kind without knowing what is the precise purpose of the Vote. Does it apply to children all of whom are now in Spain and who are merely refugees from their normal homes? It does not apply, then, to any children who have come out of Spain, and it does not make any provision for children who are refugees from Spain.

The main portion, as indicated in the statement I made, is provided for children who are in Spain, who are homeless. I have just been informed that there may be some few cases of those who are not in Spain.

Who looks after these children? I take it for granted that a certain amount of the £2,000 will be spent on the support of children who have left Spain. In whose care are they? What care is taken of their religious welfare, for instance? The Taoiseach will remember the amount of controversy there was in England a couple of years ago when a number of Basque children were brought into England. There was complaint, what often seemed well-founded complaint, about the failure to look after the religious interests of these children. I have nothing at all against the proposal, nor do I object to the amount. On the contrary, the Taoiseach knows well that there will be no objection from that point of view as far as we are concerned, but I should like an assurance that, if we are in an international organisation of this kind, we shall not have complaints such as were raised in the case I have instanced.

I know that when children were brought as refugees to England from the Basque portion of the country, which at that time was gradually being cleared by Franco, they were put into camps in England, and there was considerable complaint, very bitter complaint very often, from the Catholic authorities in England, that proper facilities were not given for these children to get proper religious instruction and even proper religious consolation. I do not know whether that aspect of the matter has occurred to the Taoiseach or to the Department of External Affairs. It applies possibly more to children who have left Spain. Seeing that they have left their homes in Spain, that they are refugees, that they are no longer under the control of their parents, I put it forward, as a thing requiring examination, that the Government which is contributing to this particular fund should see that there are no legitimate grounds for complaint on the score I have mentioned.

When the Taoiseach was dealing with sub-head A (8), I should have liked if he had been in the position to give us some information—not about the fact that such a conference was set up, or that we were a party to it. I quite admit that it is only proper that we should bear our proportion of the expenses of that conference, the secretariat connected with it and all its work, but I should have thought that the Taoiseach might have availed of the opportunity, fully in order and fully within the Vote, to tell us what progress has been made with these unfortunate people, the numbers of whom it is impossible to calculate, and the numbers of whom are going to increase every day, presenting an almost insoluble problem. What is the present position? How far has there been any real approach even to the fringe of the problem? I remember, quite as long as six months ago, reading statements by some of these refugees on the Continent and in Continental papers, about the way in which they were practically kicked about from one nation to another. I know the extreme difficulty of the problem, but the Taoiseach should tell us whether that conference that was set up at Evian has been really productive of anything. I understand that suggestions have been put forward so far as the Jews in Germany are concerned, but these, I take it, are only portion of the refugees to be dealt with. I do not know exactly even what their position is. The problem is an extremely grave one. I realise perfectly well that we cannot, or ought not, take up the very easy position that a number of people are inclined to take, and say "What is it to us?" If we are a nation, claiming to be a nation among other nations, then we should have a certain amount of responsibility, just as every other country has. We cannot take up the position, taken up on a celebrated occasion before, and say that we are not our brothers' keepers. We have obligations to humanity, and if we are taking part in affairs of that kind, perhaps we might be told what progress is being made.

Coming upwards to the last item in the Estimate, can the Taoiseach tell me, perhaps off-hand now, from which side of the fighting in Spain are these volunteers being repatriated at the moment? Technically from both, I understand, but in fact, from which side are they being repatriated?

We have a contingent from both sides. Earlier on we had some from Franco's side, and now we have them in the main from the other side. The recent ones are from the Barcelona area.

When did those people go out? After we had passed a law making it penal for them to go out?

That is true.

And we are now spending money to repatriate them.

Before the Taoiseach concludes, I should like to underline what Deputy Professor O'Sullivan has said in regard to sub-head A. (9). The note refers to the contribution towards the expenses of the commission in connection with the provision of meals, etc., for refugee children in Spain. Everyone will be very glad to endorse any activities by which our Government contributes to the relief of the sufferings of any children whose homes may be on the fighting lines of the civil war in Spain, and I have no doubt that any assistance we may be in a position to offer will be welcomed by the Nationalist Government in Spain, but it is necessary to bear in mind that the conditions of children in Spain have been made for some considerable time an active vehicle of Communist propaganda throughout the world, and, in this matter, Communist propaganda has been very much more effective than the propaganda emanating from Burgos. Everybody here, including myself—or anybody here who has travelled in England or the United States of America recently—has heard interested parties using the conditions of children in Spain for the purpose of blackening and defaming the good name of the forces of the Nationalist Government. It has been suggested that they have been cruelly bombed and savagely pursued, and that they have been made the object of attack deliberately for the purpose of demoralising the forces of the Barcelona Government. I have myself heard harrowing descriptions of the ferocity with which Nationalist air planes bombarded children on the streets of Barcelona. I began to believe them myself. But when the Nationalist forces took Barcelona it was discovered that Barcelona had scarcely been bombarded at all; the only part which had been bombarded was the harbour and docks, where children would not ordinarily be. I think, therefore, that, while we would very properly co-operate in any way we could in relieving the sufferings of children, no matter what side their parents took in the struggle, we ought to be continually on our guard to ensure that the name of Ireland is not used to lend credence to propaganda put out by a variety of international bodies concerned in fact to praise the Barcelona Government, or what was the Barcelona Government, and to decry the recognised Government of General Franco in Spain at the present time.

I do not know why the Taoiseach is so reluctant to state quite categorically what he proposes to do about our representative at present accredited to President Azana. The Government of President Azana is no longer in our eyes a Government at all. I take it that that representative is under certain instructions; that certain documents have issued under the Great Seal of this country, and that some steps must be taken at some stage to cancel those documents. I do not know if that is according to precedent. Perhaps the Taoiseach or the Minister for External Affairs would outline what the precedents are. I think it is necessary, seeing that at this eleventh hour recognition has been extended by this country to the true Government in Spain, that no ambiguity should be allowed to continue, and that no recognised document of this State should be allowed to continue in existence accrediting a representative of ours to the Communist Government in Spain, the existence of which we no longer recognise de jure or de facto.

My friend and colleague Deputy Professor O'Sullivan has gloried in the fact that he is not a suspicious man. I am. When I see £150 provided for the promotion of cultural relations with other countries, and read in the note that this is to provide travelling and subsistence allowances for lectures in the U.S.A. I get suspicious immediately. When I read that in the knowledge that the Taoiseach is himself going on a rampage next spring, I wonder will those lecturers devote most of their time to the culture of Ireland in the Middle Ages, or will they begin to explain that as soon as we got a Christian Constitution in this country learning and wisdom and erudition had blossomed in the land; that there may be a few in the audience who are unaware of the inspired genius responsible for this Constitution, but that, if there be such, they propose to enlighten their ignorance by telling them that the source of all those blessings on the Irish race is none other than that great man, Eamon de Valera. Dramatic pause, followed by loud and prolonged applause, whereupon the Stars and Stripes and the Green White and Yellow Tricolour fall from the back of the stage, revealing a six-foot portrait of the self-same Eamon de Valera, smiling down on the cultural relations that exist between this country and the United States of America. Does the Taoiseach consider my suspicions ill-founded? I do not think they are. Who is going to choose the lecturers? What are they going to talk about? Is the same regrettable confusion between Queen Elizabeth and the Taoiseach that we saw before going to arise in the minds of those men concerned to enlighten the American public? I had occasion to refer earlier to-day to the historic occasion when the Taoiseach summoned the "March of Time" to this State for the purpose of demonstrating what had happened in this country since we were blessed by the arrival of the Fianna Fáil Government. I see the Taoiseach is quite amazed. He has never heard of the "March of Time". He cannot think what I am referring to.

No; I cannot.

I often pity him in this wicked world, so innocent a child battling with the evil wiles of nasty detractors all around him, and I would remind him that our mutual friend and acquaintance Niccolo Machiavelli has advised the assumption of that exterior in every crisis. I will refresh the Taoiseach's memory. He presented a very creditable appearance I must say sitting at the top of the Executive Council table. I cannot say quite the same for some of his Ministers, but, if we concentrate on the head of the table, he presented a very creditable appearance, and made a very modest claim for fame. He then handed the running over to the commentator, and there was a selection of pictures of Trinity College, Guinness's Brewery, and the Shannon Electricity Works, and we were led to believe as we sat lost in admiration that the modest gentleman who had introduced the proceedings from the head of the Cabinet table had just tossed those off as a few of his achievements during his term of office, and that they were only a promise of what was to come. Then we were led back to the Cabinet room; there was a further modest observation and I think, a blessing in Irish was imparted to us, and the lights went up. I wonder if the cultural relations of Ireland with the United States are going to be promoted along those lines, because if they are I do not think this £150 is going to be well spent. Perhaps the Taoiseach will take us into his confidence, and tell us who is going to choose the lecturers, or what are they going to talk about? Are they going to start their campaign before the Taoiseach's tour? Are they going to be held as a rod in pickle to revive the enthusiasm for Ireland that the Taoiseach's visit is calculated to stir up, or will they be precursors of the prophet about to arrive? Those are facts on which I should like to be enlightened before I give unqualified approval to the expenditure of even this modest sum on the four lecturers. How four lecturers are going to tour the United States of America on £150 I do not know. I think it will be very hard for one lecturer to get very far with that in America. These are facts upon which the Taoiseach may enlighten us, before we are asked to grant this money, and I do not think he should fail to do so.

The bulk of this Estimate deals with the situation which has arisen owing to the civil war in Spain. I am glad that in this fashion, a long time after it should have been done, the Taoiseach and the Executive Council have finally recognised the Government of General Franco in Spain. Of course, that should have been done months and months ago. It should have been done at the time it was urged from this side of the House, when we took up that attitude. But, just as in the Abyssinian affair, I made a remark that the Minister for External Affairs had tamely followed a British lead, he is almost tamely following the British lead at present, except that he is rather emulating, I think, the wren in one of the oldest stories in the world. The birds had a competition as to which should be king, and the eagle got up higher than the others and proudly proclaimed: "I am the king.""Oh, no, not at all," said the little wren, taking a flutter, "I am higher than you." Now we find that the Executive Council here are just precisely playing the part of the wren to Mr. Chamberlain's eagle. We got no recognition of General Franco's Government here, until we saw in all the newspapers that Britain and France are going to recognise the Franco Government. Then, immediately, comes the little wren saying: "Oh, I am just there a day or two in front of them."

There was no thought of their own, and no deliberate taking a line, as this country should have taken a line, at a time when it would be of real importance. There was no taking a line, and no taking a definite stand on the side of right, on the side of justice, and on the side of humanity, until right, justice and humanity had won, without our assistance, and without our moral help or moral support. I am glad to see, no matter whether it is late in the day or not, that at the eleventh hour this Government has come in and recognised the Christian forces in Spain as being the true, legitimate and lawful Government of that country. For the future, I wish that when questions of great international importance are at stake, when the welfare of the whole world is at stake, and when great principles are being battled for, that our State would have the courage to express its own opinion, to think for itself, and not to wait until we have got a lead from other nations. I have nothing more to add to this debate, except to re-echo what Deputy Dillon said, and sincerely to hope that, when propagandists from this country go to the United States, they will be propagandists for the country, and not propagandists for one particular Party.

I explained several times in the last couple of years what our attitude was with regard to recognition of a Government in Spain. I said that the best thing that could be done for Spain was to keep out of interfering in Spain. I believe that the interference of foreign Powers in Spain was bad for Spain, and was dangerous for the world, as a whole. That has been our policy and was known to be our policy, and very largely because that was the policy of a number of States which we supported, we have got, at present, to a situation in which the Spanish conflict did not develop into a general European conflict. Of course, there are people who talk about our being the wren. We are the eagle at one period in international affairs and only the wren in another. If our attitude is that until now it was that of the wren then it could be only that during the conflict.

The Deputy wants to have it his way all the time, whatever way it went. We have either influenced international affairs or we have not. Whatever has been our influence it has been towards directing and supporting those who stood for a policy of non-intervention in Spain. No matter what our sympathies may be, we believed that was in the best interests of Spain, and in the best interests of Europe. We believed we would be greater friends, and that the Spanish people will recognise that that has been our national attitude. Of course, we know that Deputies on the opposite side urged another course. If they had been on these benches perhaps they would not have urged that, if they had responsibility for it. We are not in any way dissatisfied with the policy we have pursued. We believe that policy was right.

I indicated several times that, according as the Nationalist Government got more and more authority over territory in Spain, of necessity, the de facto position would have to be recognised. We recognised it, as our Minister in Spain was in closer touch with the Burgos Government during the whole of that conflict, than he was able to be with the other side. That is true. We made various representations of one kind or another to both Governments but, in the main, we have been in closer touch with General Franco's Government, and with General Franco, than with the other side. The attitude which we took up is this, that, in the main, our recognition is that of the people and the State, and that recognition was given to the people and the Government which represented the people at that time. When our recognition was given in the first instance, the Government at that time was the Government that had been elected, and that appeared to represent the Spanish people. There was a revolt by a large portion of Spanish nationals, and civil war ensued.

I believed that the Spanish people, if left to themselves, were quite capable of settling the matter, that they would settle it in a way which was satisfactory to themselves and which would be a lasting settlement. If a settlemore glad than I, but let us by outside force either the outside force would have to continue keeping the side it was helping uppermost, or, if that was not in accordance with the will of the Spanish people, when that force would be withdrawn, the will of the Spanish people would assert itself. I was for letting Spain settle its internal difficulties and I believe that if that was done the conflict would have been over much earlier. Our influence has been on the side of trying to keep out foreign interference in Spain and trying to bring about a situation in which the Spanish conflict was not going to develop into a general European conflict.

As I say, I am satisfied that that policy has been a right one and our recent recognition is in accordance with the principles which we laid down long ago. Everybody knows that, with the taking of Barcelona, the situation changed completely in its aspect as far as the ultimate prospect of one side getting to a position of undisputed authority was concerned. That position, in our opinion, has been reached. It is suggested, of course, that the fact that Deputies on the opposite benches put down a question affected our attitude. If we had not been affected by the attitude of Deputies over a period of two years, the fact that they were going to ask us another question was not going to affect us. If we want to be talking about suspicion, I have just as much right to be suspicious that Deputy Doyle, seeing the situation was a suitable one to ask another question, tried to rush in with his question. That would be just as likely to be true as the suggestion that we were trying to anticipate him, or some question put down by him, asking if it affected our attitude. It did not.

We are told, of course, that we were affected by what is going to be the British attitude or the attitude of Britain and France together. I do not know what is going to influence their attitude or what they may actually decide to do or when they may decide to do it. What I do know is this, that, if there is for any length of time a de facto Government, if a national Government is going to establish itself de facto, inevitably, other States will have to recognise that fact and accept them as the de jure or lawful Government of the country, because they cannot possibly otherwise protect the interests which diplomatic relations are established to protect. Therefore, our recognition was given, and I indicated more than a year ago, I think it was, that the moment this situation would arise, this recognition would be given. As I say, I do not know what is going to be the British attitude, or what is going to be the French attitude, but I do know that, of necessity, recognition would have to be given the moment the Nationalist Government is in undisputed authority. The principles that other Governments will act upon are the very principles we are acting upon. One might as well say we gave this recognition because Holland or Switzerland was going to do it. In this matter, and in the other matters, we have acted solely on our view of what Irish interests involved, and the merits of the particular events in regard to recognition or not, whether it was in the case of Abyssinia or in this case. Now, with regard to the question of the children——

Before the Taoiseach passes from that, would he explain the question about the precise position of our representative to the other Government that claims to exist in Spain, and that is internationally recognised by a number of powers?

An act of formal withdrawal is not necessary. I do not know, in fact, if the President of the other Government is actually in Spain at all. Any formal act of withdrawal is not necessary so long as the mere fact of acknowledging the other Government is in itself withdrawal of recognition of the Negrin Government. Negotiations have to take place with regard to the presentation of credentials and so on. The usual formalities will have to be observed in that case as in any other, with regard to the accrediting of the new Minister, but there is no need, in the circumstances, for any other formal act of withdrawal.

With regard to the children, I am not aware that there is any number of children who are outside Spain beyond those who are immediately across the French border. Neither am I aware that there are large numbers of them who have been taken away from their parents. The point is that the children were particularly suffering. Those who had to move away with their parents were particularly suffering in both parts. There have been stations established, not merely in the part that was recently under the control of the Barcelona Government, but in the part controlled by the Nationalist Government, and in both cases children were relieved because, in the course of a conflict of this kind, various foodstuffs which are particularly necessary for children were lacking, and this help that has been given was mainly of a material kind, to give children the type of food which was not obtainable owing to war conditions.

It is a very proper question to ask if the children were taken away from their parents. The information, as far as I am concerned, is that the case is not a case like the Basque children who were taken away into another country. I have got no information that there is anything parallel to that taking place in this case. Money or food and help were given by visiting committees who visited the various areas and who provided mainly food for the children.

With respect to the work that has been done by the Evian Committee, there have been various projects put forward and offers in Australia and elsewhere which may cover, it is suggested, about 100,000 persons, but there has not been anything like what we would regard as satisfactory progress made with that problem. As the Deputy who raised the question said himself, it is an extremely difficult problem to handle. There are not many places where such large numbers of refugees can be established, and all that has been done is that there is a committee in touch with the various Governments trying to regulate both the exodus and the re-establishment where they can get an opportunity, or where offers are made. In our own case we could offer nothing of importance in regard to a place for refugees. Deputies know that in our own country there is not land enough to go round to those who are looking for it. Consequently, we are unable to offer any place of refuge to the committee or to put it at their disposal. There is some voluntary work being done by committees here of a slightly different kind, but we could not, and our representative made it quite clear that, whilst we were prepared to help in this way by participating in the conference, we were not able to make any really valuable contribution to the solution of the problem by giving territory or land in which the refugees could settle. The work is continuing and, as I say, from the reports I have received, I cannot say I believe that really satisfactory progress, or what we could call satisfactory progress, has been made.

The question of the lecturers has been raised by Deputy Dillon. I gave the reason. Of course, I am not responsible for the vagaries of Deputy Dillon's imagination, and he can be as suspicious as he likes. This £150, as I said in my statement, is covering some of the expenses of Professor Delargy, Honorary Director of the Folklore Commission. We were very glad when we heard that he was going out to give a series of lectures with regard to Irish folklore and so on, and we asked him to extend the visits which he proposed to make and the lectures he proposed to give. Had we not said that we were prepared to make this contribution, these extra lectures would not have been given. We regard is as a valuable beginning. We will have the selection, and the selection will be made in accordance with the idea that those who are sent will be representative and will do the work which we intend to be done in this way. Just the same as if we had gone in before the British, we would be told that we had done one thing, if we had waited until the British had gone in, we would be told that we had done the other, but I cannot prevent anybody who wants to impute any sort of purposes to me from doing it. This £150 in this Estimate is intended to cover the expenses of the extra lectures and the extra tour which Professor Delargy, at our request, proposes to undertake. This is a beginning, and when the time comes along, no doubt Deputy Dillon can again exercise his imagination. I think that covers all the points raised—the question of recognition, the question of the Evian Conference and the children, and the American lectures. I have no hesitation in recommending this Vote to the Dáil.

The Taoiseach recognises that, especially as regards item No. A. 9, my purpose was to direct attention to a certain danger. I was particularly anxious, not to get information as to what the Government had done in that respect, but to direct their attention to a certain danger that may exist. I hope every effort will be made to see what the exact situation is. With the civil war, as it has been waged in Spain, the Taoiseach will admit that there must be a breaking up of families by the very course of events, and there will be many stray children about the place, whose parents are possibly dead, or, at least, lost for the time being. There are certain societies—one was mentioned by the Taoiseach—in whom I would have every confidence. That society has done a great deal of work for refugees elsewhere—the Society of Friends. They have done an immense amount of work and they have been most careful to see that there was not even a hint of interference from the religious point of view. There are, however, a number of other international bodies in which I have by no means the same confidence. There are a number of people engaged in international work who are—I will put it as mildly as possible—extremely secular in their outlook and apt to forget the spiritual side of things. I will put it no stronger than that. Where the children are in Spain, or where they have gone into France, I think it is inevitable that a number of them must be separated from their parents, and it is in that connection that I merely ask the Minister to direct the attention of his Department to see that, so far as possible, no damage is done in that respect.

That will be done.

Will the Taoiseach state whether any consultations have taken place, or any communication exchanged, between the British Government and this Government on the question of recognition of the Franco Government?

I do not know exactly what the Deputy is hinting at, or suggesting, but I can only tell him, categorically and definitely, that our action is taken by ourselves on our view of what are Irish interests.

Question put and agreed to.
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