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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Mar 1939

Vol. 74 No. 16

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 32—Office of the Minister for Justice.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £29,061 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íochta an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Dlighidh agus Cirt.

That a sum not exceeding £29,061 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice.

This Estimate shows an apparent net increase of almost £2,000 over the sum for the year 1938-39. I mention it as an "apparent increase" because I do not think that the full sum estimated will actually be spent. It will be observed that on page 113 of the printed volume of Estimates an item of £1,000 has been inserted under the heading of "Provision for extra staff" and that, on the next page, the total provision for the staff of the accounts branch of the office has been increased by over £1,000. Unless some unexpected development arises, I think that this additional sum of, approximately, £2,000 will not be required in full. Some of the problems with regard to staffing which were being discussed with the Department of Finance at the time this Estimate was being prepared have now been settled but minor matters are still pending. I do not think that the full amount will be required. The Estimate is, for the most part, merely a repetition, with minor variations, of the Estimates which have been presented year after year. There is nothing new in it and nothing new to say about it. Certain periodical reports have been issued by the Department. The usual report on prisons was issued and a report on judicial statistics has been presented. Deputies were, I think, anxious to obtain these particulars. We have also been able to present a report on road traffic. This was based mainly on the year 1937, but a number of interesting figures were obtained for the year 1938.

There is one matter to which, I think, I should specifically refer. It will be observed that, under sub-head A (4), it is proposed to provide a sum of £500 for legal and technical assistance. Last year the sum was £550. I explained last year that, of the £550 then provided, £500 was ear-marked for drafting fees in connection with the revision of the High Court rules and £50 for editing a book on Coroner's Law. Very little of the £500 then provided has been used and no part of the £50 then voted has been used. The position as regards revision of the High Court rules is that a member of the Bar has been nominated to do this work under the guidance of the Rule-Making Committee. It is estimated that the cost will work out at about £1,000. The pace at which those rules can be provided is necessarily slow and it will probably be two years before that amount of money will be actually expended. With regard to the provision last year of £50 for preparation of a book on Coroner's Law, we had in mind at that time the bringing in of a short Bill amalgamating the older Acts and eliminating from them the portions which were entirely out-of-date and unsuited to present conditions. Since then, we have considered the advisability, instead of going on the shorter course then contemplated, of introducing a comprehensive Bill to bring Coroner's Law up-to-date. I think that that would be the more satisfactory course. However, it will be necessary even in respect of that, to have a book setting out what the position is and explaining the various matters in connection with it. That sum of £50 will, I believe, be required for that purpose.

A matter to which I should like to refer comes, I think, within the purview of the Minister for Justice. That is the question of the enforcement of the School Attendance Act. I have had complaints from various parts of the country with reference to the enforcement of the Act. I took up with the Minister recently the position in the area surrounding Cork City. The School Attendance Act is enforced in Cork city through the school attendance officers of a local committee but, outside the borough boundary, the School Attendance Act is supposed to be enforced by the Gárda. I have heard various excuses put forward for its non-enforcement. One is, that there are not sufficient Gárdaí in the local station to permit of one man devoting his time to this work. Under the Act, I understand, one Guard is supposed to devote practically his whole time to its enforcement. It is a serious matter when you have that disparity between one area in which the Act is being enforced and another area adjoining in which it is not being imposed. I should like to get from the Minister an assurance that the enforcement of this Act will be attended to better in future. I hold—I am sure the Minister will agree with me—that the enforcement of the School Attendance Act is a necessary portion of the duty of the Minister for Justice. Unfortunately, there are parents who neglect their responsibility under the Act and the duty devolves on the state to force them to discharge that responsibility. I appeal to the Minister to see that, at least, one Guard in each area be allotted to this important work.

We have violations of the Act in a manner which should receive the attention of the Minister. There are places where the school in order to be eligible for the reception of primary pupils must be so certified by the Minister for Education. Any other school is not supposed to operate. The reason for that, of course, is apparent. I have had for the last few months complaints also in that respect. I had cases in the western part of the country and also cases from Cork where individuals set up what were called private schools without any certificate from the Minister. Pupils were received at those schools and education was supposed to be given to those children. From the point of view of a proper system of education, that is bad. Here, again, I think the Minister, by enforcing the School Attendance Act in its entirety, could prevent many of these schools from operating. The directors or teachers, so-called, in these schools are, in many cases, without any qualifications whatever and—this is a very important point—the parents who send their children to these schools do so in many instances in order to escape the obligation of having their children taught Irish. I know for a fact that in Cork City these private schools are simply an excuse——

The Deputy will appreciate that this matter really cuts across two Votes. Probably he intended to raise the second matter to which he has referred on the Vote for Education. If he deals with it now, he must understand that he may be precluded from doing so later. The matter of the enforcement of the School Attendance Act is in order on this Vote.

The matter of private schools also concerns the Minister for Justice. If I elaborate the matter now, I suggest that it is quite in order. I have already brought cases with regard to these private schools to the notice of the Minister for Justice and I am endeavouring to convey to the Minister another reason why these schools should not be allowed to operate without a certificate from the Minister for Education. The Minister knows that such schools exist. I have already, through a question in this House, drawn the Minister's attention to a very flagrant violation of the School Attendance Act in County Mayo. I have since made inquiries as to the operation of some of these schools in Cork City and I find that they are there also. I think that the Minister for Justice has power to insist that such schools should not operate unless they have a certificate from the Minister for Education. These are features of the School Attendance Act to which I should like to draw the attention of the Minister.

There is a further point that very often when cases are brought to court —and this may be another reason why the Act is not enforced as we would wish it to be—the district justices are rather too lenient in dealing with offenders. They forget that people are only brought to answer in these courts for non-compliance with the Act after resort has been had to every other means to make them do their duty. I would, therefore, appeal to the Minister to see to it that the Act should be enforced in its entirety and that those loopholes or weaknesses which are apparent in the working of the Act should be tightened up.

I am aware of the existence of cases of the type to which Deputy Hurley referred. We are in consultation with the Department of Education and we are anxious to see that the Act is properly carried out. With regard to the matter of private schools, we are also in consultation with the Department of Education and, so far as we possibly can, we shall see that the law in that matter is enforced. As regards the complaint which the Deputy makes that district justices are too lenient, I am afraid that I have no control over them. I do not accept for a moment that they are too lenient. I do not know if that is so, but if they are too lenient that is a matter over which I have no control, as the Deputy is aware.

As regards the question raised by Deputy Hurley about private schools, I do not think the Minister should press this matter. Somebody may start a private school for children but, with all respect, I think there should be some liberty in this country.

I have said that if the Minister for Education certifies that the school is one to which children may be sent it is all right.

Is it not more a question of whether the parent should have the right to determine where he should send his children?

Certainly. Nobody questions that right.

Vote put and agreed to.
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