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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Mar 1939

Vol. 74 No. 18

Committee on Finance. - Vote 65—Army (Resumed).

The following motion was on the Order Paper:—
That the Estimate be reduced by £10 in respect of sub-head E.— (Deputy O'Higgins).

Last night when we were discussing this motion No. 17 the Minister, with a copy of the Dáil Debates in his hand, gave the impression that he was quoting a statement of mine from a previous debate and he used these words:—

"On the last occasion the Deputy referred to what he claimed to be a fact, that a medical doctor can look forward to only £500 a year as a maximum."

He made that statement with a copy of the Dáil Debates in his hand and he left the impression on my mind, and I am sure on the mind of everybody listening to him, that he was quoting from the volume which he had in his hand. He then added the statement:—

"That statement is not true."

I take the earliest opportunity of inviting the Minister to refer me to that particular statement.

Does the Deputy want the reference?

The reference is the report of the 9th March, 1939, column 1920—a third of the way down the column.

Would the Minister read it?

"Did the Minister tell the House that if an officer joins the Army Medical Service, the highest rank he can ever obtain is that of major, and that the highest rate of pay he can ever obtain is as laid down here, something in the neighbourhood of £500 a year".

Thank you. That was my recollection when the Minister was speaking last night. When I referred to the rate in the document circulated by the Minister in my remarks, in a rough way, not being able to work out on my feet the annual rate from the daily rate, I said "something in the neighbourhood of" and the Minister, presuming to quote me on a matter of immense importance, at least to members of my profession, and on a matter vitally affecting my character as a person who has some respect for principle, leaves out the important words "somewhere in the neighbourhood of" and substitutes the words "to look forward to only £500 per annum as a maximum." I want to protest in the presence of all, and in the most emphatic manner, against anyone, Minister or Deputy, pretending to quote a person, and quoting in an absolutely untruthful way. There is a vast difference between referring to a specific sum in specific terms and referring to a specific document and saying "in the neighbourhood of." That is not the only point I was contradicted on last night. I also happened to refer, from recollection, to an advertisement which appeared in the Irish daily papers, both in regard to vacancies in the British Air Force and vacancies in the Irish Air Force, and I pointed out that the British Air Force was advertising for boys of 17½ years of age, the only qualifications required being a standard school certificate, age 17½, and rate of pay 12/6 per day. I said that along side that, in the Irish daily papers, appeared an advertisement looking for officers in the Irish Air Force, and that the terms laid down for applicants were that they had to hold a certificate as being qualified as engineers through a diploma from a university.

And that the rate of pay was 10/- a day.

And that the rate of pay offered was 10/- a day.

That is right.

I have the two advertisements before me. The British advertisement offers 12/6 per day to untrained boys of 17½ years of age, and the Irish one offers vacancies to qualified engineers, and merely says that they will be granted commissions. I take it that they enter like every other officer as second lieutenants. We applied to the Department of Defence arising out of D.F.R. 69 for the pay warrant which lays down the rate of pay for every rank and every unit in the Army. We got back a reply stating that that particular publication was out of print, but in order to facilitate us in our inquiries a typewritten statement of the rates of pay was issued. The rate of pay laid down for second lieutenant in that particular document is 8/- a day, after two years 9/- a day, and after five years 10/- a day. In the face of the advertisement anyone reading it is entitled to assume that they were advertising for men to be admitted as second lieutenants, and the rate of pay for second lieutenants applied by the Department of Defence is 8/- a day. I make the Minister a present of the other 2/-. I said 10/- a day. That was contradicted too. If the Minister is offering more, certainly the advertisement does not indicate it, and nobody could read from the advertisement or read into it that any higher rate was being offered than the normal regimental rate. In addition, I must offer my feeble protest against the manner in which this whole subject has been handled by the Minister, not only last night but on the previous occasion when we discussed the rate of pay. I could quite understand any man, Minister or anyone else, having a view of his own and standing over it, and I can quite understand anyone having views as to whether pay be increased or diminished, and standing over them, and if the support of others is required subsequently for the action taken, then the figures would be given in a straightforward way and action taken in the light of these figures. When we discussed this particular matter before, we had a very slick and tricky style from the Minister, in which he introduced allowances every time in referring to the pay of doctors, but when he referred to the pay of any other type of officer the allowances were not mentioned; they were subtracted. In other words, presuming or pretending to give a comparison, which was comparing the pay of one lot of officers with the pay and allowances of medical officers, although the allowances are common to all.

Will the Deputy quote?

I certainly will if the Minister gives me time. Does the Minister contradict that?

I have asked the Deputy to quote.

Does the Minister contradict my statement?

Quote what I said.

I will quote the Minister, but I ask first does he contradict what I said?

The Minister will have to give me some time.

I will give the Deputy all the time he wants.

Here is one statement:—

"It is within the recollection of everyone that it was done repeatedly during his time."

Go ahead.

"The revised rates, as far as medical officers are concerned, apply only to new entrants and new promotions."

That in itself is encouraging. The revised rates apply to existing officers if they are promoted to higher rank, and if they take the new rate of that rank.

"The figures given do not represent the total emoluments paid to officers. Take, for instance, a new entrant to the medical service. On entry, he will be commissioned as a second lieutenant and will be entitled to £296 a year in addition to the following allowances in cash or in kind: lodging, fuel and light allowance, £64; uniform allowance, £20; and ration allowance, £32, making a total of £116. His total emoluments, therefore, during the first year of service will be £412. It is intended that all new entrants will be promoted first lieutenant on the completion of one year's satisfactory service so that in his second year he will receive £429. If he marries after three years' satisfactory service, he will be entitled to £340 a year plus the following allowances: lodging, fuel and light allowance, £127; uniform allowance, £20 and ration allowance, £32. Hence, after three years' satisfactory service, a medical officer, even under the revised rates, will be entitled to emoluments, in cash or in kind, to the extent of approximately £519 a year."

We get the rates of pay for engineers; we get the rates of pay for regimental officers, and we get the rates of pay for British medical officers, but we are only given the rate of pay and allowances for Irish medical officers. If the case was a good case, being fairly presented, would we not have got the rates of pay and allowances for all? It is merely evidence that a bad case has to be bolstered up by doubtful debating tactics. The tactics adopted by the Minister from the first day on which this matter was debated here up to 10 o'clock last night are being very mildly described when I describe them as doubtful.

There was another matter, and again it shows the manner in which we are being treated. When this matter was under discussion last night and when my case was mainly based on the figures before me and on the knowledge inside my head, that the highest rank in the Army Medical Service is, and was for ten years back, that of major, and when, in making my case, I pointed out that the highest pay a medical officer could aspire to was that of major, the Minister, in order to answer that, last night tells us that the medical officer can be colonel and implies that it is his intention that the highest rank of medical officer will be colonel. Any Deputy, and certainly any Deputy sitting on this side, has no way of touting intelligent information from the Minister or his Department and it is a very undesirable way of getting information at any time. The only information a Deputy can get is information officially published, and we have in the Book of Estimates, for the year 1939-40, on page 325, the establishment of the Army Medical Service for the year ending 31st March, 1940. Will the Minister refer me to the colonel's rank and pay on that page? Is it there?

It is not there, but, when the Minister is in a tight corner in an argument, it is there. There is no provision made for a colonel in the official publications. In the course of a lengthy debate a month ago there was no indication of the colonel's rank, but in order to make it appear that the highest rate as given by me was untruly given, a new rate is introduced. I ask if I am describing it any way harshly when I say that such tactics are doubtful? The Minister, dealing with the pay of medical officers and attempting to justify his rates and make a fair case for the altered rates of pay, made this statement, at column 1913 of the Official Debates of 9th March:

"I arrived at this basis of differentiation, that for the first year we will give to every professional officer who comes into the Army, and has the qualifications that we require, £25 per year for each year he attended the university."

Does the Minister consider that a fair basis?

Is the Minister aware that since 1st October of last year, the university medical curriculum has been extended by two years in the whole of Eire? Was the Minister informed of that, or is he now aware of it?

The number of years we got from the university authorities.

When did the Minister get the years?

It was some time about last October, I think.

I do not want to argue or to catch the Minister out, and I do not expect him to know things that are entirely outside his sphere; but if the Minister considers that £25 a year added pay for each year in the university, doing strictly medical work was a fair addition to the pay and if— I will put it this way—the university medical curriculum has been since extended by two years, there is a fair case for an extension to £50 on the rates.

That can be considered. If the curriculum has been extended, that is all right, but we got from the universities four years as being the average for the engineer and six years for the medical man.

The Minister has the correct figure for engineers and he has the correct figure for medical officers up to those who commenced medicine last October. By the Irish Medical Council, the course was extended by two years for everybody commencing from last October.

So that it will be eight years in future?

No, seven years. The minimum will be seven years and the average eight years. I take it then that these rates will be revised. I continued my remarks to-day for the primary purpose of standing over statements which I had previously made, protesting against being loosely or inaccurately quoted. I know from a previous debate that there is certainly no use in my putting in any plea for fair terms for officers of the Army Medical Service. It certainly does not improve the condition of any officer in the Army to reduce the rates of other officers, when the situation is such that, instead of reducing the rates of medical officers, others who should properly be regarded now as professional officers are entitled to have their rates of pay raised.

There is only one other point I have to make on this subhead. I would like to be informed exactly how officers are recruited when vacancies arise in the Army Medical Service. I addressed a question to the Minister on that point some time ago, I asked how they were recruited, and what steps were taken to advertise the vacancies so as to give all young doctors an equal chance of applying. The answer I got was to the effect that the previous procedure was still being followed. Of course, that was not an answer to the question I asked. I now repeat that question, and I give the Minister an opportunity of answering. When a vacancy arises in the Army Medical Service, what steps are taken to fill that vacancy; what steps are taken to ensure that all doctors desirous of an Army medical career get an equal opportunity of applying? Are the vacancies advertised? Is there any form of selection board? Is the advisory board drawn from the colleges and hospitals which used to recommend doctors for vacancies, still being utilised? Exactly how is the thing done?

It is almost impossible to argue with Deputy O'Higgins because, so far as I can see, he will make statements that are very far from the facts and repeat them, notwithstanding that the facts have been clearly presented to him and to the House. I want to deal with a couple of his statements here last night and to-day. Last night the Deputy said that we were inviting young engineers to join the Air Force and that the rate was 10/- per day. To-day he went a bit further and he said the rate was 8/- per day by reference to the regimental rates of pay and he compared the 10/- per day with 12/6 which, he alleges, the British offered to untrained boys of 17½ years of age.

See the Irish Independent, 10/2/1939.

The Deputy said untrained boys were offered 12/6 a day?

After six months.

The Deputy said it was offered to untrained boys of 17½ years of age. I leave it to anybody who was here last night or to-day that the Deputy said we were going to pay 10/- a day to a man who had gone through a university training and that the British were offering 12/6 a day to untrained boys of 17½.

So they are.

I propose to examine the two statements. I will take the rates of pay which we offer. The advertisement which we issued for aeronautical engineers appeared in the papers of January 25th this year. In it we asked for engineers to apply for vacancies in the air corps. There is no mention of any rate of pay in it, good, bad or indifferent.

That is correct.

There was no reference to 10/- per day and there was no reference to 8/- per day.

I stated that.

The Deputy stated last night that they were offered 10/- a day.

I said last night I was speaking from recollection.

I have to deal with the impression that the Deputy left in the House, not something that is in the back of his mind. I am dealing with what he said.

All right, read out what I said.

The Deputy said we offered 10/- per day.

I pointed out that I was speaking from recollection.

I accept that. However, there was no mention of any rate of pay for aeronautical engineers in that advertisement. Anybody who might be interested was invited to apply for full particulars from the Secretary of the Department of Defence.

This is what we were given in the pay warrant.

The Deputy was given a pay warrant for infantry officers. He was in the Army and he knows there is a difference in the rates of pay for infantry and engineers. I gave him a document here a month ago, or a short time ago at any rate, which set out the rates of pay for engineers.

What rate of pay will these men get?

That is a sensible question to ask, and I wish the Deputy would ask such questions before he makes allegations that have the result of frightening young men away both from the Army Medical Service and the Engineers. That is a sensible question to ask and it is going to be answered.

If it is, it is the first question of mine that was answered.

These aeronautical engineers for whom we were advertising will be entitled—this is the information that they got, any of them who applied—to £246 plus £116. That makes a total of £362.

What is the £116 for?

The £116 is an allowance.

I have not quoted the allowance in either case.

The Deputy cannot very well leave out allowances when taking salaries into account.

Very well, we must then add the allowance to the 12/6 the boy of 17 gets, too.

By all means do that, if you want to do it. The Deputy said we were giving 10/- per day. We are giving actually £246 per year.

That comes to 13/- per day.

Ten shillings per day would be £180 and this is £246.

That would be about 13/5 a day.

It is £60 a year more, anyway. He will be entitled, in pay and allowances, to £262 a year for the first year. In the second year he will be entitled to £399, and in the third year a single man will go up to the rank of lieutenant and he will be entitled to £416. In the fourth year he will have £416, and in the fifth, sixth and seventh years he will go to £452, and in the eighth year to £489. If he is married he will be entitled to £552. That is what we have offered to these aeronautical engineers.

The Deputy said that 12/6 a day was offered to untrained boys of 17½ years in the British Air Force. I have the advertisement here. I have not the date of its insertion, but anyway it is the same advertisement. On the completion of training, air observers will be given the rank of sergeant and, after a probationary period, normally six months, pay at 12/6 a day, food and accommodation provided free. First of all, I take it from that advertisement that they will go into a period of training and, after the period of training a man would be promoted to the rank of sergeant and after six months he will be entitled to 12/6 a day.

I do not think the Minister's information is correct.

I am informed that that is the system.

They go to a civilian college first, where they get their keep and 5/- a day. At the end of the six months they get 12/6 a day and allowances.

I am only examining this from the point of view of the correctness of the Deputy's statement. I do not make any claim that we can pay here the same rates of pay and allowances, the same salaries and remuneration as they can pay in England. I do not believe this country could stand it. Having regard to the resources of this country, I believe we are offering fair rates of pay to all ranks and all services. In regard to these young men who want to go forward as aeronautical engineers, instead of getting 8/- or 10/- a day, as the Deputy alleges, and never having much of a chance of going further, they will be entitled to £362 a year the first year, which is exactly twice 10/- per day. The first year it is £1 a day instead of 10/-, which is a little bit of a difference.

When do they get the £1 a day?

They are entitled to £1 a day the moment they join.

Are you counting allowances?

I am counting allowances.

I am adhering to pay in all my comparisons.

Well, a young man cannot live on air, and I think he is entitled to know that, if he comes into the Air Force and joins as an aeronautical engineer, he is entitled to an allowance of £116, plus his pay of £246 per year.

I compared the 12/6 for a boy in the British Air Force with what I took to be 10/- pay for a qualified engineer in our force. Apparently the 10/- should be 13/-.

The Deputy was wrong both ways.

The British give 12/6 to a boy and you give 6d. more a day to an engineer. That is the position.

I could discuss this thing for a long time if the Deputy led me into a technical discussion, but the thing is this, that an air observer gets a very high rate of risk pay. You have risk pay coming into the air observer's pay as well as everything else, and the Deputy knows that in the British Air Force they get up to 8/- or 10/- per day extra as risk pay.

For flying men. These air observers do not fly.

Air observers do not fly?

No, they do not.

That is a new one on me.

They do not fly until after their fifth year.

How are they trained then?

If the Minister likes, I will go into it.

It certainly would be interesting. If the Ceann Comhairle would allow it, it certainly would be interesting to me to know how they are trained.

The Ceann Comhairle is not officially interested.

The fact of the matter is, anyway, that, instead of these boys getting 12/6 walking in to the British Air Force, as the Deputy says, they get it after preliminary training of some length, plus another six months in the rank of sergeant and, instead of our trained engineers coming into the Army getting 8/- or 10/- per day they get, as a matter of fact, 13/- for the first year, plus a couple of pounds a week as allowances. Again, if we compare the allowances that an officer gets and, say, the ration allowance that an N.C.O. air observer would get, it would be, I suppose, in England about 12/6.

5/- per day, if not supplied with food and quarters.

I would certainly say that the Exchequer in England takes good care that they are provided with quarters, if they get 5/- per day, because, I suppose, in the ordinary course, the rations, etc., would cost the State about 12/6 per week.

The same as it costs an officer here.

An N.C.O. does not live on the same scale as an officer.

No, but the ration allowance is the same for both.

The ration allowance is, but the living-out allowance is not.

I am talking about rations.

We will get all fogged up or get everybody else fogged up in this. There is a very big difference in the living-out allowance a soldier would get and that which an officer would be entitled to. I think myself that, in regard to those aeronautical engineers, the pay we offer them is fair compared with what other engineers in the country get and compared generally with the standard of life and resources of our people. We come to the medical officers again. I quoted the Deputy as having said that the maximum a medical officer could hope to obtain was £500 per year.

The highest rate he can ever obtain—that is a definition of maximum, I take it, or equivalent to maximum—the maximum he can obtain is, as laid down here, something in the neighbourhood of £500 a year.

That quotation is correct "in the neighbourhood of."

In the neighbourhood of £500 a year. The Deputy copperfastened it. He did not make any mistake in saying that £500 a year and that if he is in any other service of the Army, if he is a regimental officer, he can aim at being a lieutenant-general with a salary of £1,200 a year. He went on down in the same paragraph for a long sentence, concluding by saying:—

"While the highest rate which the man who comes in trained and qualified at his own expense, or at the expense of his parents, the man who obviously comes in more advanced in years, because he has gone through a lengthy university course, and the man who obviously must look forward to a much shorter service life, can reach is half the rate that can be reached by the untrained man."

Would the Minister give the reference?

That appears in column 1920 of the Official Debates of March March 9th, 1939.

That would be £600 pay.

First of all, we have no rank of lieutenant-general.

It could come out of the hat in the same way as the medical-colonel did last night.

If the Deputy is going to make the point about the medical-colonel, I would tell him that there is no lieutenant-general at £1,200. The highest rank we have is major-general at £800 a year plus an allowance for the office he holds, which brings it to £1,000.

I went, again, on the rates I got from the Department of Defence. Lieutenant-general is given there for £1,000.

The next thing is this: the Deputy accused me of doing something wrong when I said that it could not be taken that the man in charge of the Medical Service would always be of the rank of major. I indicated that it is my belief that he should go to the rank of colonel, but I take the Deputy up on the present rank of major which the Director of Medical Service has at the moment. The Deputy says that, going on that basis, the Director of Medical Service will always be a major and never any higher. He said that the highest he could obtain was in the neighbourhood of £500 a year.

The Minister might quote a little bit further. In my speech I said, "in the neighbourhood of £500 a year" and in my remarks I referred to the document circulated by the Minister. In other words, my remarks were related to the circulated document which every Deputy had before him. Later on, when I was giving my own figures I twice stated the rate of 34/6 per day.

But what are the facts in regard to the matter? On the basis of the present rank which the Director of Medical Services has, namely, that of major, under the new rates a major can go to a maximum of £631 a year.

34/6 a day.

Plus £100 as Director of Medical Services and plus about £180 for allowances.

May I interrupt the Minister? We were discussing at that time D.F.R. 69. As regards the present rate for major, there is an asterisk, but when you refer down to it in the Estimate you find that the rate is personal to the present holder of the office. D.F.R. 69 gives a new rate of pay for medical officers, but there is nothing to indicate an added £100 for the Director of Medical Services. If there is, I would like to have it verified, because that is what we were discussing.

The thing is that you have a Director of Engineering and a Director of Medical Services and they always have had allowances for their Departments. That has always obtained. What I am concerned with is not so much in proving that the Deputy is wrong as in bringing before the young medical men of the country what they can look forward to if they join the Army Medical Service. I want to bring out to them that they are entitled to go to, not the £500 a year which the Deputy speaks of, but on the present basis and on present ranks, to a salary of over £920 a year. I want to point out to young medical men that they can aim at being in the enjoyment of such a salary in the Army Medical Service.

Salary and allowances. If the Director of Medical Services is promoted, as I hope he will be, to the rank of colonel, then the salary and allowances of the future Director of Medical Services will be a few pounds short of £1,000 a year. On the basis of the present rank and present scale it is over £900, and that is very different from the £500 that the Deputy has been talking about.

Will the Minister give me some particulars as to how he makes up the £900 on present rates?

£631 is the maximum for major.

That is after he has been five years Director of Medical Servies.

No. After five years as major. We have other majors than the Director of Medical Services.

Well, we will take the other majors. You say the maximum is £631.

£631 plus £100 a year as Director of Medical Services.

The Minister told me that he was dealing with other majors, not Director of Medical Services. We are only dealing with the major who happens to be Director of Medical Services.

A specific motion was decided recently dealing with this matter of medical pay. The practice has been that the subject matter of a specific motion so decided may not be reopened on the Estimate. Deputy O'Higgins, indeed, in speaking on the Estimate, made only a brief reference to the pay of medical officers in the Army. The Minister, however, in concluding, dealt at length with the speech made by Deputy O'Higgins on the specific motion. Hence this debate. But there should be some reasonable bounds to it.

I crave the indulgence of the Chair in this matter because I want to tell young medical people in this country, looking forward to a job in Ireland, that there is a job for them in the Army to which they can look forward. Some of them, at any rate, can look forward to reaching a maximum salary, not in the neighbourhood of £500 a year, but somewhere in the neighbourhood of £1,000 a year.

Salary and allowances. I leave the matter at that. The Deputy asked me how it is proposed to recruit medical officers for the Army Medical Services in the future. During the last six years, and for a number of years before, medical officers were appointed to the medical corps on the nomination of the Minister. There were no examinations and no boards of any description. On the nomination of the Minister they were commissioned by the Government and appointed to the Medical Service. It has been agreed to between my Department and the Department for Finance that for the future the ordinary Civil Service Appointments Commission will operate, or a board of that nature. Vacancies will be advertised and applicants will be invited to apply. The board will go into the merits of the applicants and recommend names for the filling of the vacancies. That is how it will be for the future.

They will be good boys for the future.

I take it No. 17 is not being moved.

I move No. 42:—

That the Estimate be reduced by £15 in respect of sub-head P (1).

I ask for leave to be allowed to discuss sub-head O with P.

The Taoiseach, speaking in the Dáil on the 16th February last—column 716, vol. 74, No. 6, said:

"Nearly £1,000,000 is to be spent in regard to aircraft defence by means of aeroplanes, and so on, and there is about another £1,000,000 on anti-aircraft guns and ammunition, etc.".

Would the Minister say if the only money provided in this Estimate from which aeroplanes can be bought is the £219,585 which we find under sub-head O—General Stores—and appearing as No. 5—Aviation Section? I am speaking now of the year ending March, 1940.

Yes, unless we have a Supplementary Estimate.

So that out of an Estimate which totals £3,252,199, the total amount of money that is being provided for aeroplanes is £219,585.

That is correct. The way that I would put it is this, that out of the £1,300,000 extra on warlike material, there will be an expenditure of £219,585 for aeroplanes.

So that the only amount of money that the House is being asked to provide for the purchase of aeroplanes is £219,585.

That is right.

And on warlike material stores, sub-head P (1)—Guns and Carriages—there is an amount of £831,340. Would it be correct to say that the whole of that money is going to be spent on anti-aircraft guns?

Not the whole of it.

Could the Minister say what portion of it?

It really depends on deliveries. I cannot say.

At any rate, it is proposed to expend on anti-aircraft guns £831,000.

It is proposed to spend more, as a matter of fact, out of the £5,500,000, if we can get them this year.

I want to deal with the figures before us, and to get some understanding of the implication of these figures. In the first place, referring to the Taoiseach's statement, that nearly £1,000,000 was to be spent on aircraft, I should like to ask when we are going to be equipped with £1,000,000 worth of aircraft. In connection with that also, I think that the House ought to have some information as to our aircraft strength at present, and what we anticipate it will be at the end of the current financial year. In spite of the conflict of pictures set out by the Minister, on the one hand, and the Taoiseach on the other, with regard to what is likely to hit us first, if we are going to be hit by anything in the line of a military attack, and in spite of what he says elsewhere, even the Minister has indicated, so far as the preparations that he wants for the benefit of the civil population are concerned, that he is rather concerned about attack by air.

What I want to get is some picture of our present air strength as far as aircraft is concerned, and how the picture here reconciles with the statement made by the Taoiseach in column 716. Later on, in column 716, the Taoiseach said:—

"We are spending roughly one-half of it on aeroplanes and one-half of it on anti-aircraft guns and ammunition. I will admit that personally I would be inclined to go more for aeroplanes except for the cost."

When the House is threatened with the expenditure of £2,000,000, I think the House is entitled to some kind of idea as to the reasons for deciding to spend half the money only on aeroplanes and half on anti-aircraft guns, because nobody in the House wants to pose as the expert that the Minister rather suggested in the previous debate. But I think that if we transfer our minds from discussions in this House to the other discussions spoken of so approvingly from the Fianna Fáil Benches yesterday in comparison with the type of discussions that go on here, discussions which have taken place at crossroads and houses of refreshment throughout the country on this subject of defence, we will not find a single one of the disputants on these matters at the crossroads or any place else but will have some kind of grip of the simple primary idea that the only thing that can really destroy hostile aeroplanes are fighting aeroplanes on the defensive side.

If there is a case for all this expenditure on defence, and for approaching the Dublin Corporation to spend nearly 50 per cent. of the amount of money on aerial defence of one kind or another that the Minister is asking us to spend on aeroplanes, the whole reason for that application for expenditure on defence is that we are threatened with air attacks. If Dublin is attacked by air, the only defence that Dublin can really have is a fighting force of aeroplanes attacking the aeroplanes that come here. That can be said of any city in the world.

Why are they providing anti-aircraft guns then?

Other countries.

They are not providing anti-aircraft guns to the exclusion of aeroplanes.

Neither are we.

The Minister is providing guns, so far as we can see here, on which he is proposing to spend £831,000 during the coming year, and he is only going to spend less than one-third of that on aeroplanes.

The Deputy knows that I gave as complete a picture as possible on the Supplementary Estimate by projecting the expenditure over a number of years—the total capital expenditure.

The only shiver I have is this year's shiver.

If the Deputy lives long enough he will have worse shivers.

I think we will have some kind of a different system for sizing up the things that are going to make us shiver and planning the things that are going to put the shivers away from us. If the Minister cannot in a reasonable way give an explanation to the House as to why this expenditure on aeroplanes is so small in the current Estimates and cannot tell us something as to how he is going to balance the aircraft forces with the anti-aircraft guns; if he is not going to tell us what the fighting strength in aircraft for the defence of the City of Dublin is, then he is certainly adopting a curious attitude to the House. I would ask the Minister not to take exception to any question that we put here. Some of us, as ratepayers of Dublin, are asked to co-operate, both with our money and our personal services, in elaborate A.R.P. schemes for the City of Dublin; we are asked, as taxpayers, to provide this money; and we are asked, as representatives of the people, to come in here to discuss both the amount of money that is required, what is going to be done with it, and what the results are likely to be. What I am personally anxious to discuss is, what exactly the Minister has in mind when he distributes approximately £1,000,000 in the present Estimate here in the proportion of less than £250,000 for planes and more than £750,000 for guns.

In that connection I tell him that the ordinary people outside, who take an interest in these things and who try to visualise a hostile air force coming here and the likely plans for the defence of this city, expect the Minister's plan will be to put planes into the sky as the principal means of protecting the city. If he is not able to put planes into the sky over Dublin, then, certainly, for a very large percentage of the number of days they are here, he might as well be without anti-aircraft guns down below. If there is any massed attack by bombers on Dublin, that massed attack is going to be launched two or three miles before the hostile aeroplane fleet comes near the city. When it does come near the city, on the greater number of days of the year it is going to be completely protected from any gunner's eyes by the cloud formation over the city. That is the ordinary, much-appraised, street corner opinion on the matter. We are entitled to ask the Minister what his plans are and how he thinks anti-aircraft guns are going to serve as defensive measures against aeroplanes.

I have no objection to Deputy Mulcahy or any other Deputy putting questions with a view to eliciting information, but questions which have a tendency to befog the whole issue should not be asked.

What is befogging in the questions I asked?

The Deputy asked certain questions on this Estimate and he allows it to be assumed that no more information on the subject has been given than was given on this Estimate. I have been trying, on the Supplementary Estimate and to-day, to give the country a fair picture of what the Government propose to spend on armed equipment. Instead of giving the thing piecemeal to the House on Supplementary Estimates or Annual Estimates, such as this, I projected into the future and said that the Army would cost for the future in maintenance, servicing, repairs, etc., about £2,250,000 and that, in addition to that £2,250,000, we were going to spend £5,500,000 on capital equipment. I have tried to give some idea of how we intend to spend that money on the various corps and services. I indicated that we would spend half of that £5,500,000 on defence against air attack —both ground defence and air defence. I want to say what I said before, that we cannot guarantee the citizens of Dublin or of any other town subject to attack that no bombs will be dropped on them as a result of the expenditure of this £5,500,000. Nor could we do that if we were to spend £15,500,000.

That is not what I am asking. I am asking the Minister what he is going to do about the City of Dublin.

I want to make clear that we cannot—no matter how much we spend on anti-aircraft guns or on aeroplanes, and no matter what proportion of the sum we have set aside for this purpose is spent on either of these things—guarantee citizens against attack.

Do not tell us things we know. Tell us something we do not know.

I am telling the Deputy some things he does not seem to know anything about.

Mr. Morrissey

Everybody knows what the Minister is telling us.

I wish Deputies would admit what they know.

Would it not be much better to admit what we do not know?

It would take the Deputy a long time to admit what he does not know. We are spending £5,500,000 extra on capital equipment. Sub-heads O and P cover only portion of that £5,500,000. Of that sum of £5,500,000, we are spending about £2,500,000 or £2,750,000 on anti-aircraft defence on the ground and in the air. Of that £2,500,000 or £2,750,000, about half will be spent on ground equipment and the balance will be spent on air equipment.

Because, so far as I know, you cannot depend either on ground defence or on machines to stop raids.

Are you going to have more machines than guns or more guns than machines?

What is the use of the Deputy asking for comparisons between things that cannot be compared.

You must work in numbers.

I am showing what we propose to have and, if the Deputy wants to get himself fogged up in these things, he can go and do so. We are going to spend half of that £5,500,000 on protection against air attack. And half of that half will be spent on ground guns and the balance on machines. It is well known that, even if we had 1,000 or 10,000 fighting planes we could not guarantee to stop attacking raiders. The Deputy has, I am sure, seen for himself the reports on exercises on the continent where the protecting fighting screen of planes knew the direction from which the bombers were to come and knew the hour at which they were to come. Still, the bombers got through and got away without any casualties so far as the fighting machines were concerned. The only casualties marked down against them were those from the anti-aircraft guns. If the Deputy knows all about these things, he should go over to England and tell them that they are fools to be spending so much money on anti-aircraft guns, and he should go to Germany and tell them the same thing.

I am not trying to deceive the citizens of Dublin by saying we can prevent bombs being dropped on the city. If we spent the whole £5,500,000 on aeroplanes or on anti-aircraft guns we could not guarantee that. The City of Dublin and towns subject to attack will have to do a little to help themselves, just as people in other cities and towns throughout the world have to do at the present time. I wish the Deputy would devote some of his energy to impressing that on the Dublin Corporation, who are holding up matters. The Deputy said that I was trying to scare people about the possibility of air attack. The most violent person in regard to air attack was the Deputy's colleague on his left. He came into the Dáil with a long rigmarole about the wailing women who gathered around Parkgate Street last September. The nearest the wailing women got was Cavan. Instead of thousands gathering around Parkgate Street during the September crisis, we got one letter asking what was the best thing to do in connection with a shelter.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister need not worry; he will not be asked for any more information after to-day's display. There is no use in writing any letters if that is all the information the Minister can give the people.

Deputy Morrissey and Deputy Mulcahy will make their fortunes if they go over to Europe and tell the Governments there how to run things.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister is paid for telling us these things.

I am giving Deputy Morrissey a tip as to how to earn a fortune. Thousands of millions of pounds are being spent over there, and a tip from Deputy Morrissey would be worth millions to those Governments.

Somebody ought to give the Minister a tip as to how to do his own job.

It is not to the Deputy I will look for that. I have given, as far as I can, an indication as to how we are going to spend that money.

Does the Minister understand that what he has been asked is—why in the Estimate before us now he has less than £250,000 down for aeroplanes, and more than £750,000 down for guns; and in approaching the Dublin Corporation, asking them to give their co-operation with the machinery of the State in protecting the citizens of Dublin against attack, is the Minister not going to give the Dublin Corporation information as to what the military plan of action is?

I have given all that information.

Is the Deputy pressing this motion?

Question—"That the Estimate be reduced by £15 in respect of sub-head P (1)"—put.
The Committee divided:—Tá, 24; Níl, 50.

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Benson, Ernest E.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, John M.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Tubridy, Seán.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.
Tellers:—Tá, Deputies Doyle and Ben nett; Níl, Deputies Little and Smith.
Motion declared lost.

I move motion No. 72:—

That the Estimate be reduced by £15 in respect of sub-head Y (2),

As far as the statement of numbers issued to us goes, the Army Reserve forms a substantial part of our Army strength. The whole history of the Army Reserve, formed in this particular way, has been such that it certainly does not commend it to some of us here as a satisfactory way of strengthening the Army. The figures given us by the Minister the other day show that, I think, 53 per cent. of the total strength of the Reserve on which he depended so much—he praised very highly its effects on the men in regard to discipline and everything else like that—did not attend for their annual training. When we look at the numbers in regard to officers, non-commissioned officers and privates in the tentative figures available to the Minister at the present time, and which he intends to circulate later, we find that 56.5 of the privates did not attend for their annual training last year. In the Seventh field battery of the artillery in the Monaghan area only 13 privates out of a total of 39 attended their annual training. In the Eighth field battery, Drogheda, only ten privates attended out of a total of 59. In the Tenth field battery, Tralee, only nine privates attended out of 65. In the Fourth field battery, Castlebar, only nine privates out of a total of 45 attended their annual training last year. Those figures are in regard to some of the worst artillery sections. In the cyclists' sections we have cases like that of the Fifth cyclist squadron, Tramore, where only six privates attended out of a total of 29. In the Seventh cyclist squadron, Bandon, only four privates attended out of a total of 29. In the Eighth cyclist squadron, Bantry, seven attended out of a total of 25. In the Twelfth cyclist squadron, Westport, five privates out of a total of 60 attended for their training. In the Seventeenth cyclist squadron, Dungloe, County Donegal, nobody at all attended for training out of a total of 40. In the Corps of Engineers in the Western Command a total of 19 of all ranks attended out of 83. In the whole Corps of Engineers formed in the Reserve only 72 attended out of a total of 240.

The Minister maintains that for a Volunteer reserve of this particular kind the figures which he quoted for the general attendance for training last year were satisfactory when compared with formations in other countries, about which, as far as I am concerned, I have no information. In regard to a Reserve formed in the way in which this Reserve was formed—with halls studded here and there, and supposed to be used for weekly training of one kind or another, and in some places not used— when we see the results in the way they attended for annual training we are driven to the conclusion that the conviction we had at the start is correct, that this Reserve was formed on a very wrong basis and in a very wrong spirit, and that, unless something drastic is done to change the whole attitude towards the Army reserve, that reserve will be a source of weakness rather than of strength to the Army.

The Minister to conclude.

In dealing with the Supplementary Estimate, I indicated that we were changing the basis of recruitment for the Volunteers, in that, instead of a Volunteer being allowed to resign on seven days' notice, for the future a Volunteer would join for a specific period of five years, and that during that five years he would only be allowed to resign in the same way as a regular soldier is allowed to resign. I said also that we were reducing the annual training period from 21 days to nine days. This is being done because, from our experience over a number of years, men in regular employment find it difficult to get away for 21 days. I believe that, for the future, it will be possible for every Volunteer to get away for nine days' annual training. We will get the Volunteers up to a comparatively high initial standard of training by making them serve three months or its equivalent in initial training.

Deputy Mulcahy has quoted certain percentages from the worst of the figures I gave him to-day. Taking them all round, Volunteers last year turned up for annual training to the extent of 47 per cent. I am not satisfied with that percentage. Naturally, I should like to see this figure at 100 per cent., and so would the officers dealing with the annual training. We want to get it as near 100 per cent. as is possible. Now, it has been found in other countries, just as we have found it here, that you cannot expect territorial forces to turn up to the extent of 100 per cent. In my recollection, if you take the American territorial force and the territorial forces of other countries, it would be about 55 per cent. The ordinary regular Army reservists turn up to about 60 per cent. or 70 per cent., as I said yesterday. We hope that, with the change in the Volunteer system of initial and annual training, we will get a larger turn-up than 47 per cent. I hope that it will be almost as good as that of the Reserve, which is somewhere about 70 per cent.

I do not at all agree with the Deputy that this is the wrong way to build an Army reserve. I think it is an excellent way, and from our experience of the young men who came forward during the last five years to join the Volunteer force, I am convinced that by means of the Volunteer force we will get the finest type of reserve that this country can expect to get and at the cheapest possible rate. If we are to rely altogether on monetary inducements to build up an Army reserve we will have to spend a very large amount of money on pay allowances. We are attempting, by means of the Volunteer force, to stimulate the patriotism of the young men of this country and point out to them that it is their duty as citizens and as young men to train themselves for the defence of Ireland. We are endeavouring to carry into the present situation something of the same spirit as imbued the young men who joined the Volunteers in the period from 1919 to 1921, who volunteered and went out and fought without any remuneration whatsoever. We are pointing out to these young men that they should do their utmost to be worthy of the men who fought for the establishment of the independence of this country, that they should volunteer their services, and that we will give them certain allowances to cover their out-of-pocket expenses.

I believe that the young men of the country will respond. They have responded. We have not gone out with any great intensive recruiting campaign for the Volunteers, but within the last five years about 12,000 of them came forward. Deputy Dillon asked for the figures yesterday, and I have them here to-day. In 1934, 7,484 Volunteers reported for annual training. That was the initial year, and the only year, I may say, that any advertisement or campaign was made for the Volunteer forces. In 1935, 2,749 came forward; in 1936, 688 came forward; in 1937, 824 came forward; in 1938, 737 came forward, and in 1939, up to the date at which this was prepared—I think it was towards the end of January or the middle of February— 66 had come forward. That is a total, over those years, of 12,588.

I take it that the figures the Minister is giving relate to men coming forward to join and do their preliminary training?

The number who reported for initial training. Over a period of four years and a month, therefore—or let us say five years in order to make certain—12,588 young men came forward. During that period we did not go out on an active campaign to the same extent, let us say, as they do in other countries for their territorial forces, and some of these years, as the Deputy will know, were particularly difficult years from the point of view of recruitment to the Volunteers. I think that if we had the same sympathy for the Volunteer movement from all sections of our people as they have in other countries, such as England or America or elsewhere, and if the Government went out on a recruitment campaign for the Volunteers, we would have every decent young fellow in the country coming forward to join. We do not want all the young men of the country to come forward. If we had all the men of military age in this country in the Army, it would mean that we would have 1,000,000 men or thereabouts, but we only want about 30,000 of them. With a little bit of goodwill from all sections of the people I believe that we would have 30,000 of the pick of the youth of the country coming forward to serve.

We have had experience of this Volunteer force in its organisation and training. We were careful not to go out to get in very large numbers until we were in a fit state to organise, train and equip them. Steadily, over that number of years, the military have been gaining experience of the handling of such a force, and the result of our experience is being incorporated in the new regulations, which will be issued and which I outlined on the Supplementary Estimate. From our experience, over these five years, of the type of young fellow who came forward, I have every confidence in the future. As I said last night, the young men who came forward in these last five years are as fine a body of young Irishmen as ever offered their services to the country. I speak with experience of the Black and Tan war, and I say that these young fellows are as fine and decent, honest and sober a lot of young men as the country ever had. They had their difficulties in coming forward, of course. They had their difficulties, and objections of various kinds were offered from various sections of the people, but they came forward in spite of these objections and difficulties. They have their own personal difficulties in leaving their farms or leaving their businesses to come forward for training, but they overcame those difficulties and came forward. From our experience, treating them as a military force, we find that they are very efficient. Our people in this country have a natural aptitude for military training. Of course, you cannot expect a volunteer or territorial force to march as smartly as a regular unit that is in training every day in the year over a number of years, but in the handling of their weapons, in shooting, in artillery shooting, these young men have held their own even with some of our regular troops. My information is that in regard to artillery some of the Volunteer units were the best on annual training.

I am certain that, given a fair amount of goodwill, we can get all the Volunteers we want. I am certain also that, on the basis of the new regulations, we can turn them into efficient soldiers—not up to our regular Army standard, but to as high a standard as obtains in territorial forces in Europe, America or elsewhere. I am satisfied also that it is the cheapest way this country can build up a reserve force in addition to the regular Army. I pointed out last night that a volunteer costs somewhere round about £12 a year. A regular soldier costs £112 a year. We can have ten volunteers for the cost of one regular soldier. Naturally, anybody in charge of an army would like to have the whole personnel up to the regular soldier standard, but to do that would cost us millions year after year, a sum which I do not think the country could afford and which I do not think the young men of this country should ask the people to spend. I believe that the young men of this country have a duty to offer their services to the country. We are asking them to join the first line of volunteers for five years —under the new regulations it is for a period of five years—and to subject themselves to call if the country should require them. I have every confidence, as I say, that we shall get the number we require.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

I move:—

That the Estimate be reduced by £15 in respect of sub-head Y (4).

The Minister can be quite assured that in pursuing plans to develop an Army reserve for the country he is not going to get anything but help from every section in the country. In criticising certain aspects of Reserve forces, we here are criticising things that exist, that exist perhaps for definite reasons, and we hope that his new plans will enable him to eliminate these things. Sub-head Y (4) provides for payments to secretaries of sluaighte and capitation grants also for secretaries. This implies that civilian committees are going to continue throughout the country in connection with new Volunteer schemes. I do not think that is going to be any help to the Minister. I do not see why such Reserve as there is throughout the country should not be administered by Volunteer machinery and handled entirely by men who have military responsibility. I move this motion because I think that whatever civilian super-structure there is in connection with Volunteer forces in different parts of the country should be eliminated, that the Reserve should be a clearly defined military force and should be linked with the Army only through its military officers.

I sympathise with the Deputy's criticism of this subhead. When we started the Volunteers we adopted the same system as they have in other countries where they associate civilian committees with the local territorial units. Initially, I invited a number of people in the various districts to come together and help to organise the young men in their districts as Volunteers. I did my utmost to get all sections of the people represented. That was five years ago. At that time, too, we decided that the secretary of each sluagh should be paid an allowance of £5 for doing the secretarial work and, to remunerate him for the extra expense in regard to new recruits coming along, we gave an extra 2- per head for each recuit. At that time we were starting on a clear field. There were no Volunteers, there were no Volunteer officers and no Volunteer N.C.O.'s. Under the new scheme, we shall have Volunteer officers and Volunteer N.C.O.'s attached to the various sluaighte. Their allowances will be increased and I think we can, without any hardship or without any injustice to them, ask the Volunteer officers and N.C.O.'s to carry out whatever secretarial or other work arises in connection with the sluaighte. While we started five years ago with civilians on the sluagh committees, there are very few of the civilians left and the sluagh committees in 99 per cent. of the cases, are composed of Volunteer officers and men. For the future, it may be taken that the sluagh committees will be all Volunteers, that the secretarial work will be divided amongst the officers, the N.C.O.'s and the men of each sluagh, and that if we are paying a grant in regard to recruits we shall pay it into the sluagh funds rather than to any individual. That is what we have in mind. The regulations will be published in the next couple of weeks, I hope.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Vote put and declared carried.
Barr
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