Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Apr 1939

Vol. 75 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Gaeltacht Services (resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

Mr. Dockrell

I was mentioning one of the items that figured in the Gaeltacht accounts, and that was buttons. I referred to a loss of nearly £1,700 on buttons and, no doubt, when the Parliamentary Secretary is replying, be will give us his explanation of how that occurred. I hope that the mention of buttons has not caused him to close his mind to any idea that a reform is needed on this Estimate in connection with the Gaeltacht Services. Lest anyone might think that the case of the buttons was an isolated case, I would like to bring to the Parliamentary Secretary's notice a case that occurred some time ago where, I think, Rayon silk was bought at 4/6 a lb. and disposed of at 3d. a lb. I understand that was because the silk could not be used on the machines that were installed in the Gaeltacht industry. I can also remember a case where silk ties were sold for 2d. apiece. Then there was the case of an enormous number of socks that were made in sizes, as well as my recollection serves me, that differed from the ordinary sizes that we are accustomed to in this country.

When you get the resources of the Government or of the country harnessed behind an imperfect knowledge of the requirements of the people, you can get very unfortunate results if these matters are not looked into very closely. I think you would have to go to another State where they were supposed to have made boots and, when they were delivered, the people found they had one size boot for one foot and another size boot for another foot. Apparently from that to socks is not a very far cry, but what does all this amount to? It amounts to this, that the Government, with more energy than discrimination, have started to give employment and to manufacture goods that are found to be unsuitable when they come to be marketed.

I would like again to put forward the plea to the Parliamentary Secretary to divide this problem of manufacture into high grade and low grade, and the Government should take one section of the industry and leave another section to those who are engaged in the industry for a living. This trouble all arises from a very imperfect knowledge of conditions and from a struggle between the Government and the people engaged in the industry, along the lines of the Kilkenny cats. Deputy McMenamin mentioned the section dealing with tweeds, and it only reinforces the argument that the Government have started to manufacture what people believe to be one class of goods, when they are really manufacturing another.

In the last resort, I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to get the experience of people who spent their lives in this industry and not to be engaging in competition with them; to mark out a field for the Government energies, probably along the lines of pure home-spun yarn and high-grade stuff, or original designs, or trying to get double width cloth instead of single width cloth and other improvements such as that, that are earnestly desired by the people who are looking for this class of goods. If a proper solution could be arrived at along those lines, I feel certain that the item of £16,000 distributed to the Gaeltacht workers in wages would be nothing in comparison with the amount of money which could be spent in providing employment for such workers when the industry would be established on proper lines so as to satisfy the public demand and the legitimate market which is there to be supplied.

Cormac O Breisleain

D'éist mé go cúramach leis an méid adubhairt teachtaí ar an taoibh eile, agus mar gur cheart dom oiread eolais a bheith agam ar an Ghaedhealtacht agus ar ghnoithí na Gaedhealtacha le teachta ar bith annso, caithfidh mé arádh nach gcreidim mórán dá bhfuil ráidhte. Tá cúpla lá ó shoin dubhairt an Teachta MacMeanamin annso nach raibh ins an Báinín tíre a bhí an Roinn a dhíol ach scrábán bocht. Is cosamhail nach bhfuil mórán eolais aige fán Bháinin seo mar tá clú onórach anois ar an mBáinín seo, ní amháin sa tir seo ach i Nua Eabhrac agus i Lonndún.

Tá dóigh i bhfad nios fearr le tabhairt fá deara ar dhaoinibh ins an Ghaedhealtacht indiu agus tá moladh agus buidheachas mór tuillte ag an Aire agus ag an Riaghaltas mar gheall ar an bhiseach agus le na chois sin tá muinntir na Gaedhealtachta iad féin íontach buidheach daobhtha ar son a luach saothair. Má chuireann tú ceist ar fhear ar bith ins an Ghaedhealtacht indiu—an fíor go dtáinic biseach mór ar shaoghal na ndaoine ins an Ghaedhealtacht le linn an Riaghaltais seo—naoi n-uaire amach as deichneabhar innseochaidh sé dhuit gar fíor agus le na chois sin déarfaidh sé leat nach bhfuil le déanamh agat acht amharc thart fá dtaoibh duit agus go dtabharfaidh tu féin fá deara an t-athrach sin. Agus ma chuireann muid i gcomporáid an méid airgid atá ghá chaitheadh ag an Riaghaltas seo agus an méid a chaith Riaghaltas Chumann na nGaedheal, caithfidh muid uilig a adhmháil go bhfuil an Ghaedhealtacht indiu ag fághail na haira is ceart dithe a fhághail ó Riaghaltas dhúthchais ar bith.

Tá muid uilig ar aon intinn gur ceist speisialta agus ceist chasta an Ghaedhealtacht agus más rud é go bhfuil sábháil le déanamh ar a cuid daoine, ar a teanga agus ar a nósanna sean-Ghaedhealacha — na rudaí is tábhachtaighe i saoghal an náisiúin seo —caithfidh muid iarracht a thabhairt ar an cheist a réidhteach i ndáiríribh agus gan mhoill fosta. Má shíleann an Riaghaltas é a bheith riachtanach na mílte púnt a chaitheadh le tionnscail tabhachtacha a shábháil do na feirmeoiribh, agus admhuighim féin seo a bheith ceart, cinnte níl Eireannach ar bith a dhúiltóchas airgead a chaitheadh le áiteachaibh bochta gan tionnscal sa Ghaedhealtacht gidh nach bhfuil luach saothair ar bith le feiceáil ar a shon.

Gním comhgháirdeachas leis an Aire ar son an deagh-obair atá déanta aige le toighthe deasa slachtmhaire a chur suas ins an Ghaedhealtacht. Le cuidiughadh an Riaghaltais tá toighthe úra folláine ag fás aníos in-áit na seantoighthe gránda mí-fholláine. Ach, an bhfuil rún ar bith ag an Riaghaltas cuidiughadh le lánamhnacha óga atá indhiadh a bpósta toighthe úra a chur suas nó unchtach ar bith a thabhairt do lánamhnacha óga ar mhaith leo pósadh. San am atá i lathair caithfidh Iánamhnacha óga imtheacht leo imbéal a gcinn go hAlbain agus go Sasain agus socrughadh síos annsin le teaghlaigh a thógáil agus cinnte caithfear stad a chur leis an droch-chleachtadh seo.

Domhnall MacMeanamin

Cad é tá tu ag dul a dhéanamh leo?

Cormac O Breisleain

Táim ag cur na ceiste sin ar an Runaí Páirliminte.

Domhnall MacMeanamin

Obair sa bhaile.

Cormac O Breisleain

Sé mo bharúil go mba cheart cead a thabhairt do lánamhnacha óga úsáid a bhaint as deontais na dtoightheach agus le n-a chois sin ba cheart cuimhniughadh ortha nuair a bhéas aon scéim imirce ar siubhal ag an Riaghaltas. Mholfainn fosta don Aire deontais níos mó a thabhairt do na teaghlaigh is boichte ins an Ghaedhealtacht chun toighthe níos folláine agus níos fearr a chur suas. San am atá i lathair ní féidir leis na teaghlaigh is boichte aon úsáid a bhaint as na deontais siocair go bhfuil siad ró-bheag agus siocair nach dtig leis na daoinibh seo aon chuidiughadh a thabhairt iad féin.

Níl morán don chinéal seo teaghlaigh le fághail ins an Ghaedhealtacht agus le tuilleadh cuididh ón Aire d'fhéadfaidhe déanamh ar shiubhal ar fad le na gcuid toighthe gránda mí-fholláine. Tá eolas agam fhéin ar chorr theach de'n chinéal seo in mo Ghaedhealtacht féin agus tá siad náireach i dtír ar bith agus tá súil agam go ndéanfar rud éigin gan mhoill le déanamh ar shiubhal leis an chúis náire seo. Ba mhaith liom a rádh arís ag deireadh gur ceist chasta ceist na Gaedhealtachta, ach tá an oiread seo le rádh ar shon Riaghaltas an lae indiu—tá siad ag déanamh a ndícheall le obair agus cuid de ollmhaitheas an tsaoghail a thabhairt do na daoinibh ins an Ghaedhealtacht. Tuigeann muinntir na Gaedhealtachta sin agus tá siad sásta go bhfuil a ngnoithí i lámhaibh cearta agus nach ndéantar dearmad daobhtha.

Mr. Childers

Deputies who have regard for Irish industry were astonished during the course of this debate to hear the remarks of Deputy McMenamin on the Donegal homespun and tweed industry. The Deputy's statements reminded me of Arthur Griffith's scathing remarks made at the time when he was propagating his agricultural and economic policy, in which he endeavoured to point out the enormous difficulties with which Irish manufacturers had to contend in this country because of the prejudice of the people of the country towards Irish goods. Perhaps Deputy McMenamin is not aware that it was not necessary for him to bring into public debate in this House a specific complaint against one bunch of samples from the Government Gaeltacht Services, that there is in this country not only a very effective Civil Service to deal with these matters and to reply to complaints of that kind, but that there are, at least, two voluntary associations whose specific purpose it is to correct defects in Irish goods, if such exist. I am going on the assumption that the Deputy's remarks were correct in reference to the goods in question. On the assumption that they were correct, there are three different ways in which the Deputy could have brought the matter to the attention of the authorities in order to examine the question whether that particular bunch of tweeds was desirable from the standpoint of the New York World's Fair and from the standpoint of ordinary business. He could have inquired from the officials of the Department and brought his reply to the House. He could have inquired from the National Agricultural and Industrial Development Association, which has a special Department devoted to the special purpose of correcting defects in Irish goods and examining complaints regarding them. He could equally have inquired from the Federation of Irish Manufacturers. Any one of these steps could have been taken by the Deputy and he could have got a satisfactory reply.

General Mulcahy

And Parliament would be asked to keep out of this matter, just as they are asked to keep out of external affairs.

Mr. McMenamin

Will the Deputy let me answer him? My case is simply that we are dealing here with policy. We have the political head of the Department here. I say that any cheap article is going to destroy a thing which should be first-class. That is my whole case. Here we are dealing with policy and the Deputy knows that.

Mr. Childers

Unfortunately, in the first instance the Deputy made the cardinal error of judging by the material in question. The material in question was not sold for the purpose of country or rough wear. The people who wear that material have no intention whatever of crawling under barbed wire fences. That material was ladies' light dress material and sold for that purpose, to last for one season, perhaps sometimes not even for one entire season, and at most not more than two seasons. There is absolutely no objection to the material being light, and there is no objection to its tearing if subjected to unusual pressure. These are the actual facts of the matter. In view of the enormous publicity given in the foreign Press to the subject, I thought fit to bring into the House some samples of the products of Gaeltacht Services which compare favourably with products of similar industries in any country in the world. This material here will stand a pressure of 350 lbs. to the square inch and cannot possibly be torn. I hope the representatives of the foreign Press who are here to-day, and who did particular damage to the Donegal industry, will announce the fact that this material cannot be torn under any circumstances.

Mr. McMenamin

You are spoiling the virtue of that by putting out cheap stuff.

Mr. Childers

There are very substantial orders placed at present for a considerable number of samples issued by Gaeltacht Services. My own experience, as secretary of an industrial development association for a number of years, is that when Americans visit the Permanent Exhibition of Irish Goods they are delighted with the samples of Round Tower products shown to them and purchase them largely. If I have any complaint against the goods sold at present by Gaeltacht Services it is that when unfortunate tourists travelling around the country in motor cars reach certain places in Donegal and elsewhere they pay unduly high prices for goods sold to them by typical tourist shops in tourist districts.

Mr. McMenamin

I do not agree with that.

Mr. Childers

Far from paying a low price, they pay a high price.

Mr. McMenamin

That is a reflection on the business integrity of the people of Donegal.

Mr. Smith

It will take the Deputy ten years to explain that speech of his.

Mr. McMenamin

It will not take me ten months.

Mr. Childers

As a further example of the quality of these ladies' light tweeds against which the criticism was raised, I may say that I happen to have a friend who bought one of these light tweeds, not for the purpose of wearing it, but to cover a seat which is used every single day for many hours. People sit on that seat very often, and at the end of 12 months it showed no signs of wear whatever, although undergoing a wear and strain which it would not have undergone if used for the purpose for which these materials are generally used. I think it is most undesirable that complaints against particular articles manufactured by Donegal people should be brought to light in this House. The Deputy is well aware that the vast majority of the products of Gaeltacht Services are adequate and satisfactory, and if he were to bring in all the bunches of samples issued by Gaeltacht Services and lay them in rows on the bunches here there would be no complaint to make, but he chose to bring in just one bunch.

One of the satisfactory features about the Vote is the fact that I notice that the amount paid in wages has gone up from £6,000 in 1934 to £19,000 in the Estimate for 1939-40. I notice also that, although the industry is subsidised to some degree by the State, if I take the expenses for last year as being £65,000 approximately, of which wages were £16,500, the gross receipts for the material were no less than £56,000, showing that, although there may be a loss on the industry reflected in these figures, nevertheless it is far from being an industry which is subsidised to an unnatural degree by the State. Giving an example of the kind of prejudice reflected in the Deputy's attitude, I might mention a case which recently came before me of Irish material sold here in a bunch of cloth which came to this country from England. The material was not classified as Irish. It was Irish material, but there were a lot of other material with it, some of which were English. The good wholesalers of this country paid 13/9 for that cloth. When the same cloth a few months later was circulated by the actual firm who weave the cloth, it received only 10/9. Why? Because of what I might call the attitude of snobbery on the part of an unduly large section of the population towards goods of foreign manufacture.

I suggest to the Deputy that with that kind of spirit in the country it behoves us to behave discreetly when discussing matters concerning the quality of Irish goods and, if possible, to obtain the greatest amount of information before such remarks are circulated in the House. However, my opinion is that Gaeltacht Services can continue and will continue to prosper in spite of the Deputy's remarks. You only have to visit some of the big shops in England, or to talk to English or American tourists who come to this country and who appear at racecourses, to know that these products are appreciated and bought for their worth. Gaeltacht Services, along with private individuals, are preserving what is a very important industry in this country and, as I said before, I trust that in future in this House there will be a more reasonable attitude adopted towards products of Irish manufacture.

Mr. Dillon

It is nearly time that Deputy Childers gave up trying to teach his grandmother how to suck eggs. Deputy McMenamin was working for the people of Donegal long before Deputy Childers was ever heard of, and Deputy McMenamin will be working for the people of Donegal long after Deputy Victory has chased Deputy Childers out of Longford, and that is not so far ahead if I am any judge of politics in Longford. Deputy Childers to-day in his patriarchal manner, admonished Deputy McMenamin to speak discreetly about Gaeltacht industries. It is a very left-handed compliment to anyone to describe their work as work of a kind about which it is necessary to speak with discretion. A good many of Deputy Childers' colleagues when they refer to his political activities speak of them with discretion, but that is not the highest tribute they could pay to Deputy Childers as a politician. I can assure Deputy Childers that if he imagins he is helping Gaeltacht industries by announcing that it is necessary to speak of them with discretion, the discerning buyer will say: If the products of that industry require to be spoken of with discretion, I prefer to await the time when the truth can be told about them before I venture my money in buying from their sample books.

There is no necessity whatever, and there should not be any necessity for deceit, concealment, or what Deputy Childers calls discretion, in regard to the Gaeltacht industries. The duty of everybody here is to tell the truth about the Gaeltacht industries, and if there is anything wrong with the Gaeltacht industries to tell the House what is wrong, and ensure that what is wrong will be put right. Deputy Childers tells us that he is prepared to furnish facilities in his office for setting right what we think is wrong. The organisation to which he belongs may have a very inflated sense of its own importance, but to-day members of this House do not surrender to the organisation which Deputy Childers adorns their functions as public representatives. Our duty, if we find that the interests of the people of the Gaeltacht are being neglected by those who are supposed to look after them, is to call those who are failing in their duty to account in this House, and to ensure that in future the good work that is being done in the Gaeltacht will not be discredited in the public mind by the folly of the Department responsible for the administration of the Gaeltacht industries as a whole. There is good stuff being turned out in the Gaeltacht, and there is bad stuff being turned out in the Gaeltacht, and the friend of the Gaeltacht is the man who is not afraid to face up to that, but is prepared to get up in this House and say: "You should not put the Gaeltacht trade mark on bad stuff, because if you let bad stuff go out with the Gaeltacht trade mark, that is the stuff that will get talked about." People take the good stuff, and do not comment on the fact that it carries the trade mark, but when they make one bad purchase out of 40 good purchases, you will hear a great deal of talk about the bad thing that had the trade mark upon it, while you will not hear about the 40 purchases that were up to standard. There is no Deputy that does not know that.

If Deputy Childers buys a bad packet of Sweet Afton cigarettes that is the one he complains about, because he does not think it is anything wonderful to get good cigarettes in Sweet Afton packets. They are marked with a reliable trade mark, and one expects to get what is good in the packet bearing that mark. What is remarkable, what is new and what is equivalent to the man biting the dog is when you get bad cigarettes in a Sweet Afton packet. That is what is published, and what is bruited abroad. Any merchant knows that, and the equivalent in the Gaeltacht industries to the man biting the dog is to put the trade mark on bad stuff. That is what will be talked about. It is the bad packet will be hawked about at the World's Fair or at the Glasgow Fair. It is the bad packet that will be commented upon by merchants in London, Paris or New York. What is excellent will be agreed about but of the thing that the customer comes back to complain about, they will be only too ready to say: "Oh, that came from the Donegal Gaeltacht, what would you expect?"

Mr. Breslin

Did any customers complain?

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy was not interrupted when talking. Have manners. If you have not got manners you should learn them when you come here. It is about the thing that fails to give satisfaction that the customer comes back to the merchant's shop. It is on that the merchant is going to make his explanation, and it is in regard to that that the merchant is primarily concerned and not about the Donegal Gaeltacht or anything else but his trade in New York, Paris, or London. He wants to protect his own reputation and he says: "It is not my fault if it is not well done. There it is, bearing the trade mark. If it is a failure blame the Gaeltacht Industries. Do not blame me." He does not hide or conceal the fact. Of the other 40 who got good stuff and of whom none came back he says nothing. He shifts the blame for any customer's complaint from himself on to the Gaeltacht article and points to the Gaeltacht trade mark. It is because we have some experience of the immense difficulty that has attended the building up of the Gaeltacht industries that we warn the Parliamentary Secretary against allowing the Department to put the trade mark on anything except that which has passed the highest test. We are told by Deputy Childers that we are people anxious to injure the Gaeltacht industries—we, who were working for them before the Deputy was born. The eloquent Deputy for Cavan would be much better employed looking after calves.

Mr. Smith

That is only cheap tripe.

Mr. Dillon

I did not interrupt, and I am not going to be stopped now.

Mr. Smith

I am not going to stop the Deputy.

Mr. McMenamin

What are you talking about so?

Mr. Dillon

There is no necessity to conceal anything about the Gaeltacht industries, but there is a necessity to face the fact that the Department at present is being run on lines that can do nothing but injure the good men working at the looms, and the good women working on the knitting in the Gaeltacht industries and elsewhere, and it is injuring them because there is not the capacity in the Department to do the job as it ought to be done. What is wrong with the Gaeltacht industries? What is wrong with the Gaeltacht industries is that we are producing what we want to produce, and not what our customers want to buy. Is that for want of the will or for want of the way? It is not for want of the will. If the people who are working on the Gaeltacht industries got information of what potential customers of the industry wanted to buy they could produce that stuff, just as well as Harris tweed is produced for every market in the world. Instead of prancing in here, and denouncing those who are trying to put what is wrong right, it would suit Deputy Childers much better to go to those who know something about Gaeltacht industries, and find out what the real difficulties are, and not come hedging for civil servants who, through no fault of their own, are falling down on the job. How can men or women who have chosen as their career in life that of the Civil Service be qualified to gauge the fashion market in London, Paris and New York; determine the fashion trade and forecast designs and type of texture best calculated to capture the most elusive market in the world? They know nothing about it. If they did they would not be in the Civil Service. The man who understands the fashion market, the man who deals with that type of trade is, from temperament, entirely unsuited to occupy a position in the Civil Service of this or any other country. He could not do it.

Take the point made to-day by Deputy Dockrell and most reasonably made. There was mention of a loss on buttons. I know well that the man, wherever he is, responsible for that loss on buttons is sweating, because he thinks the loss he made is going to embarrass the Parliamentary Secretary in Dáil Eireann, and he is perfectly right. It is. When that man is asked. on the next occasion, to take a chance on something attractive, something that might capture the market, with the knowledge that it might not capture the market, he will say: "No, if I get the market I will get no thanks for it —it is all part of the day's work—but if I miss the market there will be three hours' debate in Dáil Eireann because of the fact that I paid so much for these goods originally and sold them for one-third of their value." And there must be, and there will be, that debate so long as you run this thing by a Government Department under the direction of the Department of Finance. Just imagine the Department of Finance, with their rules and with their requirements, surveying every transaction entered into by the sales branch of the Gaeltacht industries! Is there a business man in Europe or in the United States of America who would attempt to carry on his business for one week under the conditions imposed by the regulations of the Department of Finance? Is there a single firm in Europe or America that would not go bankrupt in one month if they had to carry on within the strait jacket of Department of Finance regulations? Of course there is not. The thing is quite impossible, and unless and until you get free from that, no progress at all can be made. If you do get free from it, let us not close our eyes to the facts.

Deputy McMenamin brought into this House a bunch of patterns and I saw them. It was not the first time I saw them, because, the week before, I had that bunch of patterns and four other bunches of patterns before me, and I was buying the stuff for my own trade. Now, the patterns that Deputy McMenamin produced in this House reflected no credit on anybody. They are poor, indifferent, unexciting, pedestrian kinds of cloth. There are people in Donegal producing home spuns, without any Government assistance and without any Government help, and they compare more than favourably with the best the Gaeltacht Department have to offer. Deputy McMenamin made it clear that in what the Gaeltacht Department has to offer there are many attractive cloths, good cloths, and he emphasised that it was unjust to those weavers who are producing good cloths to incorporate with their work inferior cloths. Deputy McMenamin is perfectly right. I adopt every word he said. It is a grave injustice to the workers in Donegal who are producing good stuff to bind up their stuff with the inferior products of other looms. Why are the products inferior? They are inferior because they are designed to meet a trade that does not exist. If you want to capture the trade to which Deputy Childers referred, that of ladies who are prepared to wear a light tweed, the most important thing in it is, first, to secure the correct design, and secondly, to secure distinctive dyes. Now, the design that Deputy McMenamin laid before us here is a pale and ghostly herringbone. There is not a cotton shoddy manufacturer out of Lancashire that could not copy it. I think I have it here. Yes, here it is. Just look at that—a dreary, unadventurous kind of herringbone.

Now, that is one range of samples. I think that is bad. If you want that class of stuff to take, you have got to have, first, a distinctive design that is not going to be reproduced readily by any shoddy manufacturer, and, secondly, you want dyes, if possible, other than aniline dyes. You want the old vegetable dyes of the people, not because, from an industrialist's point of view, they are the most efficient or the most economical—as a matter of fact, they are the most expensive—but because they are dyes that no shoddy manufacturer in Germany, Great Britain or American can copy, because he does not know the secret of their composition and, even if he did, he would not have the patience or the character to sit down and compound them by the traditional method of the people of Connemara or Donegal. It is that air of distinction, that air of uniqueness, that air of peculiarity, that sells that stuff on the New York market and the Paris market and the London market. I know that that is true because I myself have sold them across the counter on the New York and London markets. I have worked in a shop and offered them across the counter. I have spoken on behalf of the Donegal industry to the fashion experts of New York and have got them to come to Donegal.

Remember this: When you offer a material of that kind to the average American purchaser, a fine material of the kind referred to by Deputy Childers, you are not dealing with a textile expert but with a rich woman who wants something exclusive and who is no judge of quality at all. She wants something of outstanding appearance. She does not care what she pays for it so long as it is not going to be an article of common use. If you do not get patterns and dyes that cannot be reproduced by the mass production manufacturer, when you show Gaeltacht tweeds in Altman's window in New York or in Bergdorff Goodman's window, or in the Rue de la Paix in Paris, or in Regent Street or Bond Street in London, within three weeks the shoddy manufacturers' agents will have got patterns and they will have manufactured shoddy copies, and what began its history in Regent Street ends it in Whitechapel, or what began on Fifth Avenue is available at First Avenue or Tenth Avenue; and the day that it appears there it does not matter how much you may have sold to Bergdorff Goodman's or to Altman's, it goes down the chute and is sold for rags, because the moment it has been copied by the shoddy manufacturers no seller of exclusive goods will allow it to remain upon his premises.

Now, with regard to this pattern that I have here, who could not copy that? I could copy it myself. What is there distinctive, exclusive or striking about the pattern that Deputy McMenamin brought before this House? Do we do any service to the Gaeltacht industries by forbearing to warn them now that that kind of material is not designed to capture the market that they must capture if they are to survive? There is no market for that material except the luxury market: there is no market for it except the exciusive market, the fashionable market. I know that in the case of some of the plain people over on the far benches their blood runs cold when you suggest that the products of the Gaeltacht industries should be sold to anybody but the plain people. Deputy Brady, I suppose, is shattered for fear the aldermen of the Londonderry Corporation will be discouraged from purchasing Gaeltacht materials. Well, now, monumental as their figures may be, the amount of materials that they will buy from the Gaeltacht to cover their persons would not keep the looms of the Gaeltacht busy for three days.

What we have got to capture is not the home market—it does not matter two straws to the Gaeltacht industry— what we have got to capture is the market of the wealthy, luxurious, exclusive fashion trade of the great cities of the world. There are many Deputies in this House who have no great affection or regard for the ladies who move in those circles or for their manner of life, but it is not for love of them that we are selling this stuff. It is because they are the only people who, under the system of economy that rules the world at the present time, have enough money to pay for that kind of stuff. There is no use reading them lectures on morality, or on how they ought to live. The only thing that will provide an economic market for the Gaeltacht is a lecture to the people who are producing this stuff on what those ladies want to buy. I am concerned, as Deputy McMenamin is concerned, to get employment for the people who are working in the Gaeltacht. I want to get for people whom I know intimately work, because that is what they want. I want to get them deliverance from the necessity of the dole and of relief work. I want to restore their traditional dignity and their independence for which the people of Donegal have a proud record the world over. I want them to feel, as I know they ought to be able to feel if they only get the help they are entitled to get, that the things they are producing are not only economic but that they are objects of beauty, and a contribution to the artistic life of this country. They have the ability —they have the sensibility for beauty— to produce those things if there is only a market in which they can profitably sell them. Their circumstances preclude them from securing that market, and it is that gap in their capacity that the Department of the Gaeltacht ought to be able to fill, and it is because they are not going about that job in the right way that they are letting down the Gaeltacht workers: that they are presenting their work in the wrong way to the markets of the world with resulting disaster for the workers. The courageous, straightforward, honest position taken up by Deputy McMenamin in this House is, of course, capable of misrepresentation by gentlemen like Deputy Brian Brady.

Mr. Brady

And by his own colleague, Deputy MacFadden.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Childers ought to have some experience of what misrepresentation means. He spoke the truth in this House last Thursday and Deputy Keyes took the opportunity of twisting his words and of suggesting that he said something quite else. Deputy McMenamin spoke the truth in this House last Friday.

Mr. Breslin

Question.

Mr. Dillon

Most emphatically. He spoke it in defence of the workers in the Gaeltacht, and Deputy Brady and every other mean, irresponsible little publicity hunter in this country will twist his words in the hope of getting votes from a few people who can be deceived by misrepresentation of that kind. Deputy McMenamin does not give a hoot for that kind of misrepresentation and neither do I, because any time we want to we can go down to West Donegal and we can sweep it aside in half an hour. But, in the meantime, those dirty tactics have this evil consequence, that they do deter honest men from speaking the truth in this House for fear that the truth will be twisted in order to do them an injury by unscrupulous political antagonists. Deputy McMenamin and I are long enough in the public life of this country to be indifferent to misrepresentation. It does not cost us two thoughts what Deputy Brian Brady or Deputy Breslin blather about us at the crossroads in West Donegal. We will continue to do our duty in this Parliament until such time as, despite Deputy Brady and Deputy Breslin, we get the Gaeltacht industries on to a sound foundation and secure for the people who get their living by them a decent return for the work they are doing. If they had to wait for Deputy Brady to get them on to that foundation——

Mr. B. Brady

They chased the Deputy, anyway.

Mr. Dillon

——they would be waiting until every loom in Donegal had collapsed.

Mr. Brady

They chased the Deputy, and I am there still.

Mr. Gorey

Such a sample to look at.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is no more a sample of Donegal than this material is a sample of the Gaeltacht industries. They both got in by mistake. On this subject I went so far recently as to prepare a memorandum myself. I had no authority from my own Party to do it. I did it purely as an individual interested in the Gaeltacht industries. I sent the memorandum privately to the Minister, and I believe it was perused by the Parliamentary Secretary. My suggestion in that memorandum was that we should get an expert designer—not so much an expert designer as an expert in design; that we should get an expert who really understood the fashion markets in London, Paris and New York: that we should get somebody who had a cosmopolitan outlook and, at the same time, who thoroughly understood the circumstances of the people who actually work upon those looms; that we should make of all these three a body similar to the old Congested District Board, and hand over to them an annual grant of a substantial sum, charging them with a task of hiring skilled designers who would prepare distinctive designs for the weavers to incorporate in their cloths, and that they would institute a department of market research so that fashion trends could be forecast, and so that fashionable dressmakers could become interested in what we were in a position to produce before the selling seasons opened.

That, of course, as Deputies who know something about it realise, has already been done to a certain degree. Of course, the important thing is to get in touch with persons like Schiaparelli, Worth, Mainbocher and Molyneux and other leading dressmakers in Paris long before the seasons opened, and induce them to take certain of your materials and show them in their salons. It may sound silly, but the fact is that you may have the most beautiful materials, and if you do not get one of these famous dressmakers in Paris to show them it is almost impossible to sell them on the luxury market. No matter what the market is, if you get Schiaparelli, Mainbocher or Worth or one of the leading Paris dressmakers to show that material, it will sell pretty freely. It may have an immense success, but, whether it has or not, it is at least assured of a certain minimum sale. You cannot do that by sending deputations under the chairmanship of Deputy Brian Brady.

Mr. B. Brady

Or of Deputy Dan McMenamin.

Mr. Dillon

Or even under the dashing leadership of Deputy Cormac Breslin.

Mr. B. Brady

Or even Deputy Dillon.

Mr. Dillon

What you want to do is to get persons in the habit of handling those people, who know their way about their salons, those people who get the entree who can make contact with those people, because it is not easy to see the people who can sell these goods at all. Although I do not want to decry its display at the New York World's Fair the fact is that where this stuff is to be sold is to the dressmakers of the salons of Paris and the fashion magazines of America. If you had this body that I speak of they must be delivered of all Department of Finance regulations in the expenditure of the annual grant that would be made, just as the old Congested Districts Board was from Treasury control. They would have to be allowed to spend to their money on the lines which I have suggested.

I went myself to one of the leading fashion magazines in America, the editress of which I happened to know. I got her to come over and she promised that if she could get material she would devote a number of the magazine to a write-up of the Gaeltacht industries. She came and she went around. At the end, I saw her and asked her what was going to happen. She said: "No." They would not do it now because, although she saw a lot that was very nice, it was not really up to the mark of the first tip-top fashion trade. Well, I did not quarrel with her. I know she wanted to do it, and I asked myself whom I should go to interview with regard to that matter. I yield to nobody in my admiration of the civil servants of the State. But there is no use my arguing fashions with sedate civil servants in a Dublin Government office because I am going to get nowhere if I do so.

If I could find perfect designers for the Gaeltacht industries, a body of fashion experts, such people as would be employed by Saks of Fifth Avenue or any of the fashion shops, one could go to those people and point out what is wrong and get from them the kind of suggestion which would correct the errors that exist; that would be moving in the right direction. But there is no use for Deputy Brady or Deputy Breslin or Deputy McMenamin or myself who live, respectively, in Killybegs, Bunbeg, Ballybofey and Ballaghadereen, making a profession that we are familiar with the manners and customs of Madame Chauncey Depew, who lives in New York, or Madame So-and-so, who has an apartment in Park Avenue. New York, and lives in Long Island, or yet, Mrs. Bulkeley-Jones of London. I do not know anything about them and I am not sure that I want to know anything about them. But if it paid me to find out about them I would pay a decent salary to anyone who would investigate these things for me, just as I would pay a scavenger to clean sewers or to clean the streets. I preserve public health by one activity and promote industry by the other. I would not sead Deputy Brady, nor would he send me, to search these ladies' minds, no more than either of us would expect the people of Killybegs or Ballaghadereen or Kilcar to give an opinion on fashions. Both of us agree that both these tasks are necessary to be done if the best is to be got out of the public money that is to be expended. I like a fight, and if Deputies opposite think they are going to make any capital out of what I have said about the Gaeltacht industries they are quite welcome to all they can get out of that, but they will find, by the time I am finished with them, that they will get very little out of it. But I make this submission, that this fight, this political occupation, is a pleasure which we ought to forego. It is doing no service to the workers of the Gaeltacht to make them a stalking horse for a political campaign. I speak with absolute detachment, because these people will never poll a vote for me. None of them are in my constituency.

Mr. Brady

The Deputy ran away from them. They would not vote for him.

Mr. Dillon

Well, now, I do not know about that. There is no question of their polling for me now and there never will be, but whether that is so or not I am satisfied that Deputy Brady and Deputy Breslin are just as much interested in the Gaeltacht industries of West Donegal as Deputy McMenamin or myself. I am suggesting to those two Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party that instead of slobbering over the Gaeltacht workers to wheedle votes out of them, instead of holding protest meetings when anybody criticises the products of the Gaeltacht, they would serve the interests of the workers much better if they would make it clear that when the work of the Gaeltacht fell below the standard of excellence which we are entitled to expect, the work will be criticised openly, fearlessly and courageously and that nobody in this country will be satisfied with anything less than the best the Gaeltacht can produce, because we know if they will confine themselves to producing nothing but the best things they are capable of producing we will have no difficulty whatever in capturing the markets of the world for the products the Gaeltacht offers.

How are we to get from them the best? The only way in which we can do that is to furnish them with the information that they cannot possibly get themselves. I am sure Deputy Brady will burst into eloquence in a moment and will say that I am reflecting on the intelligence of the people of Donegal. That is the futile kind of observation he would make. I answer: The Harris spinners, weavers and dyers were in exactly the same difficulty about their products about 12 years ago. The Harris industry had practically disappeared because they were producing exactly the same kind of weaving, design and material that they had been producing 40 years before. It was at that stage that the Harris Association was formed. New designs were brought in and a complete revolution was effected in the Harris products. But the reason for the expansion in the Harris industry is this: The Harris Society came forward and provided for the weavers of the cloth good designs, up-to-date marketing information and a reliable trade mark which goes on no cloth but that which conforms to the highest standard that can possibly be set. Anything which falls by a hair's breadth below the highest is thrown out and sold without the brand. What the Harris tweeds have been able to do we could do here; and there are being manufactured, outside the Gaeltacht, in this country materials which have themselves captured the Paris dressmakers. There are materials being manufactured in the County Wicklow—never mind the Gaeltacht at all—without any help from the Government, finer and lighter materials than those referred to by Deputy Childers, materials of substance, too, that on their own merit have made the most fashionable market in Paris, have been manufactured and presented in the earliest trade shows by Schiaparelli.

There is no question whatever of the capacity of our people to produce the stuff. I do not claim that there are people of the peculiar capacity to produce machine-made textiles, because that is not a distinction—I think it is rather an affliction—but our people have the capacity to produce highly artistic tweeds, like homespun materials, whether they come from Donegal, Connemara, or County Wicklow, and we have evidence before us that the product of their hand-craft, correctly presented to the fashion market, has captured that market. And that is because, in the case of the Wicklow textiles, they were presented by artistic designers who understood the market and had the entrée to it, and they are at this moment being sold in the City of Dublin and in the Cities of Paris, New York and London, and in greater quantities than can conveniently be produced at present. I want for the Gaeltacht industries the kind of design, the kind of services, the kind of marketing information that these Wicklow textile manufacturers have so splendidly taken advantage of. But the people who are doing that for the Wicklow textiles would not take £10,000 a year to go into the Civil Service and submit to Civil Service regulations. And if they were of that highly laudable and admirable character to fit them for the Civil Service, they would not have the capacity for selling textiles on the Paris dress market. Now, you have got to overcome that dilemma and the only way is a Grant-in-Aid to an autonomous body analogous to the old Congested Districts Board. That would be subject to criticism, but it is worth trying, and, if you do not try, you will never make the grade. Remember what the crafts in this country are doing. Unless you can hold out prospects to the craft workers of the Gaeltacht that they are going to make a good income, youngsters will not learn to weave. They will go to England, to Scotland, to America, or they will come to Dublin. The crafts are not only an economic asset to this country—they are, economically, the key to the solution of the land problem in the Gaeltacht; because the small-holdings will not support the families that live there, unless there is craft work or fishing or something else to help them out. The crafts of weaving and spinning and home-made dyes are also in this country an immense artistic asset, and if we once lose it we have lost it for ever, because continuity once lost can never be brought back. We have, for instance, lost the craft of glass-making, we are losing silver-working, we have lost practically every craft in this country for which Ireland was once famous. Remember I am speaking of hand-crafts. We are losing the industry of handwoven damask, because that is a dying industry, too. There is another craft threatened with extinction. A craft, like a mushroom spawn, once you break the thread of its continuity is dead for ever. You may bring in something exotic and try to build it back in its place but it has not the old native inspiration and is never rooted in the soil as the old craft was. The weaving industry is rooted in the soil, particularly in the soil of West Donegal.

I have to laugh when Deputy Brady tells me that none of the weavers ever supported me in Donegal, and when I remember Dunlewey, where I am happy to say I got 98 votes out of 103. Dunlewy is the centre of the weaving industry, and it is these people who scorn to take help from anybody, who are the proudest and most independent people in Ireland, who glory in their ability to earn their own living. There is no use in paying compliments to them now, because I do not intend ever to ask them for a vote again, but they are some of the finest people in the world, and it is these people's livelihood that we are trying to save. I am quite sure that Deputy Brady and Deputy Breslin are just as anxious as I am to save that livelihood. Do not let us make of this a political stalking horse.

Donnchadh O Briain

Who started it?

Mr. Dillon

Anything we have said is capable of misrepresentation, capable of being used by the Deputy's friends in Donegal, but if we have succeeded in creating some excitement, and that we move the Department to recognise the urgency of the problem and take proper measures to set it right, I say that the people of Donegal, and the weavers especially, will be deeply indebted to Deputy McMenamin, and I say to the people in Ardara or Kilcar who may be inclined to hold demonstrations that when they see the result—as I hope they will see the result—of the work that Deputy McMenamin and his colleagues are trying to do here in Dáil Eireann, instead of meeting to pass resolutions attacking Deputy McMenamin, they will know that they can rely on one Deputy from Donegal at least who was more concerned to work for them and to help develop their industry than he was to flatter them sufficiently in order to twist votes out of them. We all know the hullabaloo that it has been attempted to start in regard to the statements that Deputy McMenamin made here. I want to say that I adopt every word that he said. Having worked for the industry here, in America, and in London, I am satisfied that everything he said was in the best interests of the industry, and I say finally that I am satisfied that but for what Deputy McMenamin has said nothing would have been done, and that I have every reason to believe that as a result of what Deputy McMenamin has said, effective steps will shortly be taken to put the Gaeltacht industries on the foundation that he and I want to see them on; and that will have been achieved, not by pouring treacle over the Minister for Lands and Gaeltacht, but by giving him a little touch of criticism and by showing him where he went wrong, and by encouraging him to go right in future.

Mr. Brian Brady

Despite the lengthy apology we have heard to-day from Deputy Dillon, evidently trying to cover up the mess that his colleague, Deputy McMenamin, created last Friday in a statement about the Gaeltacht industries, I for one have no objection to criticism of the Gaeltacht industries or any other industry where criticism is desirable or necessary, provided that that criticism is made in a reasonable and sensible way. But I say that it was most disgusting and most painful to be here last Friday listening to Deputy McMenamin's attack on the Gaeltacht industries. He delivered what his colleague described as "an unwarranted attack" on the Gaeltacht industries. I will come to the statements in the Press and the public meetings later on.

Mr. Dillon

Incidentally, the Deputy was not in the House when Deputy McMenamin was speaking.

Mr. Brady

I beg to draw the attention of the Ceann Comhairle to the fact that I was here during most of the speech until I was so disgusted that I had to walk out. Had Deputy McMenamin the interests of the Gaeltacht industries at heart and had he been sincere and in earnest in endeavouring to put right what he considered was wrong, there was, I submit, a way of doing that. He could have gone to the director of the Gaeltacht industries with the patterns which he was tearing up here last Friday and he could have asked him was this the kind of pattern that was being sent out and was this the kind of stuff that was being manufactured by the Gaeltacht industries. He could have said: "It is a shame to send out stuff like that." He could have advised him of his knowledge what he considered the best means to adopt in order to remedy that state of affairs. That would not have given Deputy McMenamin an opportunity of scoring a point over the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. McMenamin

I did not want to score any point.

Mr. Brady

It would not have given him an opportunity of coming in here publicly to besmirch and to scatter poison gas about the workers in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. McMenamin

I did not say a word about them. I protest against that.

Mr. Brady

It is said that it is an evil bird that fouls its own nest and if a man who poses as coming from the Gaeltacht, and who is actually a native of the Donegal Gaeltacht, comes in here and endeavours to besmirch the workers of the Gaeltacht surely that saying applies to him.

We have heard from Deputy Dillon that it would be better to criticise the workers, better to try to put things right rather than to give them cheap, dishonest flattery. He spoke about protest meetings, and I think he had in mind that probably Deputy Breslin and myself had something to do with these protest meetings. I can assure Deputy Dillon, Deputy McMenamin and the House that I knew nothing of the statements that were being published and that I knew nothing about the meetings that were held until I read about them in the Press last Monday.

Mr. McMenamin

We never suggested that.

Mr. Brady

Deputy Dillon suggested it. He did not say it, but that was in the back of his mind. I suppose Deputy Dillon would describe as "cheap, dishonest flattery" the statement, opposed to the statement of Deputy McMenamin, that came from Deputy McMenamin's own colleague, Deputy Mícheál Óg McFadden. Deputy Mícheál Óg McFadden is unfortunately ill and has not an opportunity of being in the House, but he was interviewed by a Press representative—and I would remind the House that Deputy McFadden is a representative of West Donegal where, as far as Donegal is concerned, the majority, if not all, the Gaeltacht industries branches are centred, and one of the largest centres for the manufacture of Round Tower tweed is in Kilcar, Deputy McFadden's native place. He described the attack made by Deputy McMenamin as "an unwarranted attack on the industry." He further stated—I am quoting from the Derry Journal of Monday, April 24th, 1939:—

"The reputation of the Round Tower tweed as woven in the Donegal cottages is too firmly established to be injured by wild and irresponsible statements in the Dáil or elsewhere."

That is what a man, who is a native of the Gaeltacht, who knows the Gaeltacht industries and the people who are manufacturing the material, thinks of the statement of his colleague, Deputy McMenamin. He goes on to say:—

"This industry was established in South-West Donegal in 1928 to implement one of the recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission. Since then it has grown and flourished. The weavers have become expert and take a pride in their work. The tweeds turned out are unsurpassed for design, finish and hard wear. The industry provides for upwards of 100 Gaeltacht families who would otherwise be on the dole. With increasing demand for the Round Tower tweed, we are looking forward to further extensions and the setting up of a little dyeing, spinning and finishing mill to meet the needs of this promising industry."

Mr. McMenamin

Should not there be thousands working in that industry?

Mr. Brady

There would not be ten working in it if the people believed the statements you made. I challenge Deputy McMenamin and Deputy Dillon to read Deputy McMenamin's speech of last Friday to find one qualifying remark. Every remark was to the effect that every article that was being turned out under the trade mark of "Round Tower tweed" was shoddy. There was not one qualifying remark in that speech.

Mr. McMenamin

What I said was that if you turned out these bad ones it would destroy your good ones and your whole trade. That is my case and I stand by that.

Mr. Brady

There is not a word in the official report about good ones. The speech made by Deputy McMenamin here last Friday, instead of helping the Gaeltacht industries, was calculated to leave the impression on people's minds that they would not buy that stuff. People would say: "Did you not see what was said about it in the Dáil and published in the newspapers: that it is worse than English shoddy, and that it is no good and will not wear and the first shower of rain will cause it to go out of shape?" I do not say that that was the Deputy's intention, but that was the effect of his speech. I do not think that sort of thing is going to help the Gaeltacht industry. If Deputy McMenamin or any other Deputy in the House has any grievance, there is an obvious remedy. I do not know whether it was his proximity to Deputy Dockrell that made him bring in that bundle of patterns.

Mr. McMenamin

It had nothing to do with it.

Mr. Brady

We had another occasion on which Deputy Dockrell brought in the broken handle of a spade in connection with another Irish industry, and it was probably to bring off some spectacular stunt like that that we had Deputy McMenamin bringing in the bundle of patterns. If these Deputies are in earnest in endeavouring to help any branch of Irish industry, and particularly the Gaeltacht industries, the way to go about it is to try to improve matters.

Mr. McMenamin

Look at what you did in Crolly and Annagry—closed two factories.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Brady

Deputy Dillon was talking about manners to-day. He has such influence and he is so anxious to cloak. Deputy McMenamin that perhaps he would teach him a little manners too. The way to help Irish industry is not to come in here, as Deputy McMenamin has come in, with patterns of our cloth and start tearing them up. There is a branch of the Gaeltacht industries at Beggar's Bush. The wholesale department is now being transferred to Westland Row. Let anyone who is interested in Gaeltacht products go to Westland Row and examine the samples of the materials there. I challenge anybody to say they are not the best of materials, that the designs are not modern, if not the latest, and that the cloth that is manufactured in the Gaeltacht is not the best of cloth. The great difficulty with some of us who invariably wear the Round Tower tweeds is in wearing them out. It is the best tweed that I know of that is manufactured, and if we come across a bad bit of cloth there is no need to come in to the Dáil and advertise to the world that every piece of cloth in the Gaeltacht is of that material and standard.

The workers in this case protested, and protested vigorously. Deputy McFadden had no axe to grind in describing the statements of his colleague as wild and irresponsible. It might be said that I have an axe to grind, but it cannot be said that he had. Instead of making what his colleague described as wild and irresponsible statements, if Deputy McMenamin had made some helpful criticism and suggested to the Parliamentary Secretary, or to the director of the Gaeltacht Industries, a method by which any defects could be remedied, he would have been doing the Gaeltacht Industries a much greater service.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Faoi'n Vóta seo, tá go leor sciollaíocht imease na dTeachtaí, go mórmór imease Teachtaí Dhún na nGall. Chuile uair ar an Vóta seo bíonn an iomarea sciollaíocht agus gan mórán cur leis. Tá mé a ceapadh gurb é Raifterí adubhairt:—

" Dá leantaí an seanchas go dtí an seachtú líne

'S beag a bheadh saor dá mbíonn ag caint

Dheamhan nídh dá scannalaighe nach foighid a mhínigheas

Agus dheamhan locht dá mhéad nach bplúchfadh grádh."

Tagann cuid den tsean-ráite sin isteach, go mórmór "Dheamhan nídh dá scannalaighe nach foighid a mhínigheas." Tuige a ndeirim seo? Seod é an fáth. I mbliain 1933, nuair a bhí Aire an Airgid ag caint ar an Vóta seo, dubhairt sé chuile nídh dá bhféadach sé agus dá scannalaighe in aghaidh an fhir a bhí ina Aire i Rialtas Chumann na nGaedheal. Ghlan sé amach cuid de na hoifigigh a bhí san am seo agus chuir sé na hoifigigh nua seo isteach. Bhfuil an rud céanna á rádh indiu fútha sin? Mar sin leis seo caithfear iad seo a ghlanadh amach. Ach do réir mo bharamhla-sa níl an glanadh seo ag déanamh mórán maitheasa don Ghaedhilg ná don Ghaeltacht. Tá sé thar am againn stopadh ag tarraingt pluid na Gaeltachta o chéile, agus rud eicínt a dhéanamh dhi a thiocfadh i bhfeidhm.

Chualamuid go leor cainte faoi dhéantús an éadaigh Dé hAoine agus indiu. Más fíor a leath, is maith an rud nach bhfuil sé againn i gConamara. Annsin, tá na sean-fhigheadóirí againn a bhí ann i gcomhnaí le linn na ndaoine agus a ndream—ag déanamh bréidíní narbh fhéidir a cháineadh, agus atá chó maith indiu is bhí siad céad bliain o shoin. Na figheadóirí seo ní bhfuair siad congnamh ón Aire seo ná o Aire ar bith a tháinig roimhe ná ón Congested Districts Board a gcloisimid moladh mór air. Ach níor stop sé sin iad. Tá siad ag cur a ndathanna féin ag obair nar thréig agus nar chlis ariamh— dath rúta an lile, scraith cloch, barr an fhraoigh agus a leitheide.

Ba mhaith liom go mbreathnóch an tAire amach dhó seo agus gan cead bás a thabhairt don obair mhór seo. Mara mbreathnuighe sé amach dó is gearr go mbeidh sé caillte. An bealach céanna a bhfuil Cumann an Bhéaloideasa ag breathnú amach do na sean-scéalta—marach iad cá mbeadh na sean-scéalta, ma tá go leor de na daoine a d'innis iad ar shluagh na fírinne. Leas-Chathaoirleach mise do Chumann Caiplíní Chonamara. Thug muide duaiseanna ar na dathanna seo. Bean amháin bhí seacht ndath dhéag aici—dathanna nar cuimhníodh cheana ortha, dath ón neanntóg agus ón gcupóg, ón fiúise agus mórán gach luibh dá bhfásann insa tír. Ba mhaith liom dá gcuireadh an tAire duine dá dhream síos ag an Teasbeántas seo an chéad bhliain eile.

Dubhairt an Teachta O Breislín go raibh sé sásta go raibh go leor á dhéanamh faoi'n nGaeltacht. Ní maith liom nach bhféadfainn an rud céanna a rádh ach ní fhéadfainn, mar cho fada is fheicim-se níl tada á dhéanamh sa gceanntar Gaelhealach sin againne. I mbliana tá an-laigheadú á dhéanamh ar an airgead atámuid a fháil faoi Acht Tighthe na Gaeltachta.

In uraidh bhí laigheadú ón mbliain roimhe sin. Dá réir seo is gearr nach mbeidh pighinn ar bith le fáil faoi'n Acht seo. Do réir an rud adubhairt an Teachta O Breislín cheapfá gur in aimsir an Rialtais seo a rinneadh na tighthe sa nGaeltacht uilig, ach ní fíor é sin. Rinneadh a thrí oiread in aimsir an Rialtais a chuaidh rómpa seo.

Deir an tAire go bhfuil sé le tuille airgid a thabhairt ar an gceilp. Is maith liom é sin. Ach tá faitíos orm go bhfuil a fhuagra ag teacht beagán mall, ar nós chuile rud atá siad a dhéanamh—ag glasáil an stábla nuair atá an capall imithe. Níor tháinig an fuagra seo nuair a bhí na slate mara istigh, ná le coicís nuair a bhí na cladaigh lán le feamuinn dearg a bhfuil luach na mílte punt anois de lobhtha. Dá dtagadh an fuagra seo féin tá an-fhaitíos orm nach ndeánfadh na daoine an cheilp, mar do réir an tsean-ráite: an té a buailtear sa gceann bíonn faitíos air. Buaileadh na ceilpeadóirí sa gceann nuair a laigheaduíodh luach na ceilpe narbh fhiú í dhéanamh. Mar sin is deacair leo tosuighe arís. Tiubhraidh mise chuile chongnamh don Aire le rádh leo a dhéanamh.

Tá go leor rudaí eile a d'fhéadfadh an tAire a dhéanamh, mar adéarfa na sléibhte a shaothiú. Dubhairt mé é seo in uraidh faoi Vóta Choimisiún na Talmhan, agus ba cheart done Aire rud eicínt a dhéanamh sa mbealach seo. Chuirfeadh sé na daoine go leor leor chun cinn. Bheadh níos mó talamh acu dá gcuid féin, agus bheadh fonn ortha é seo a dhéanamh mar tá fhios acu le n-a dhéanamh. Is fearr go mór rudaí atá fhios acu le n-a dhéanamh congnamh a thabhairt dóibh, ná a bheith ag iarraidh ortha rudaí nua a dhéanamh nach bhfuil aon eolas ná aon mheas acu air. Ba cheart dúinn a theacht le chéile sa rud mór seo agus ar n-intleacht a chur le chéile as ucht nid eicínt a dhéanamh. Geallaim-se go ndéanfa mise mo chuid féin le chuile chongnamh a thabhairt uaim. Ach níl sé de rath ar dhuine ar bith a rádh ach "Cuirimid cumann ar bun ar nós an Congested." Tá moladh mór anois le fáil ag an Congested Board agus ag chuile rud a rinneadh faoi Rialtas Shasana, ach céard a rinne siad don Fhíor-Ghaeltacht? Dá ndéanadh siad fichiú cuid den méid atá na daoine a rádh ní bheadh tada le déanamh ag an Rialtais a tháinig isteach annseo le seacht mbliana déag. Níl faithíos ormsa a rádh dá laighead dá ndearna na Rialtais seo againn féin go ndearna siad go leor níos mó don Fhíor-Ghaeltacht ná rinne na cumainn agus na daoine a tháinig rómpa. Ní shin é le rádh nach bhfuil go leor leor le déanamh fós. In ainm Dé anois féin, tagamaid le chéile agus cuirimid tús leis an obair dáiríre. Dhá thrian den obair í thosuighe i gceart. Má tosuightear í i gceart cuirfidh duine eicínt deireadh leí. Mar sin ná bíodh sé le rádh gur thréig muid é, mar 'sí an obair mhór an Fhíor-Ghaeltacht a choinneál beo.

Mr. McMenamin

Did you state, Sir, the price you were giving this year for the weed and the kelp? I cannot recall that you did. You are buying so much kelp and so much weed.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands (Mr. O'Grady)

The average price this year is £4 5s.

Mr. McMenamin

That is for the kelp?

Mr. O'Grady

Yes.

Mr. McMenamin

And of course it will be the same price for the weed— on the same iodine content? How are you paying for the weed?

Mr. O'Grady

The weed price is 22/6. On Friday last, when this Estimate was introduced, Deputy McMenamin treated us to an unusual exhibition. I notice that during the week-end he got a very good Press. His photograph is produced in large size here in the Independent. He was given full publicity, but I notice that when his statements were corrected by his colleague from Donegal, Deputy Mícheál Og McFadden, the denial did not get the same publicity which Deputy McMenamin's statements got during the week-end. I notice that the cross-Channel papers were very glad to seize on the opportunity afforded to them by Deputy McMenamin as one of the representatives of a Gaeltacht constituency. I have here some Press cuttings. Let us take the Daily Express. It gives a splash heading: “T.D. Tears Up Samples of Irish Tweeds in the Dáil.” What a glorious exhibition for a Deputy representing a Gaeltacht constituency to come in here and take a sample of tweeds which he erroneously described as men's suitings—tweeds which are more than 12 months' old —and by a system of conjuring tricks more suitable perhaps to some kind of theatrical exhibition in a music hall than to what should be the conduct of an important Deputy in this House——

Mr. McMenamin

Did the Parliamentary Secretary say they are over 12 months' old?

Mr. O'Grady

Yes.

Mr. McMenamin

And they are in current sale? Do you deny that?

Mr. O'Grady

I did not interrupt the Deputy.

Mr. McMenamin

I do not want to interrupt you at all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Then I wish the Deputy would not do so.

Mr. McMenamin

I am only asking a question.

Mr. O'Grady

I will give the Deputy all the information he wants, and perhaps a little more, before I sit down.

Mr. McMenamin

Right.

Mr. O'Grady

The Gaeltacht would be ashamed of them; that is one of the statements. I went through the reports of the Dáil debates, and time and again the Deputy has used the word "shoddy" in a description of those tweeds. I absolutely deny that there is any shoddy in those materials. I propose to prove to this House and to the country that there is not a single particle of shoddy used in the manufacture of any of those tweeds. It might be illuminating for the Deputy to know that the very tweeds in regard to which he treated us to such a disgraceful exhibition, are actually supplied from the very area which he represents. I am sure that, as a result of Deputy McMenamin's outburst, his photograph will be enlarged and framed in every household in Donegal. On the question of the tearing of the tweeds, I ask the Deputy is that a fair test? Is it not more a conjuring trick than a test of the quality of the tweeds? This is the first time that the question of the quality of the tweeds has ever been raised here or elsewhere. As Deputy Brian Brady pointed out, and others who have experience of wearing those tweeds, their only fault is that it is almost impossible to wear them out, and people grow tired of them after years and years of hard wear. If Deputy McMenamin had been more concerned, as we were told, with the improvement of the conditions of the workers in the Gaeltacht than he was with trying to make political capital here——

Mr. McMenamin

None whatever.

Mr. O'Grady

——he would have gone to a source from which he could get information; he would have gone to some leading draper here in this city or in the country.

Mr. McMenamin

I got those samples from a draper in Donegal.

Mr. B. Brady

He manufactures homespuns himself.

Mr. O'Grady

He would have gone down and seen the technical experts in the Gaeltacht Services Branch and asked for their opinion. He would have produced those tweeds to them and asked them——

Mr. McMenamin

The thing was quite simple. A merchant in Donegal, having those tweeds for sale, handed me the samples.

Mr. O'Grady

The thing was quite simple? I can refer the Deputy to another place; if he went up to the "Zoo" he would find a number of little gentlement who are very popular with the children there, and, if those patterns of tweed were thrown in amongst them, any of them would have beaten the Deputy in a tearing competition. That would be a more appropriate place than this House in which to treat us to that disgraceful exhibition. I deny that there is anything used in the manufacture of those tweeds except pure woollen thread. The Deputy need not accept my statement for that. I dare say the Deputy would not. I have before me certificates from the manufacturers, which I will show to the Deputy, or to anybody else who is interested, proving that nothing but pure new wool has been used in the manufacture of those tweeds. The Deputy gave a cheap exhibition——

Mr. McMenamin

Where is the thread manufactured?

Mr. O'Grady

One of the firms is in the Deputy's own constituency. Perhaps he knows of it without my naming it? Is it necessary to name it? Deputy Dillon can inform him.

"With reference to yours relative to our 20c white knicker yarn, you may be assured this yarn is not shoddy yarn; it is made of good quality wool."

That is from Donegal.

Mr. McMenamin

Is it made of the best quality wool?

Mr. O'Grady

I suggest that the Deputy should go to the managing director of that firm and have it out with him. I would like him to go further. I would like him to go back there and give an exhibition at Convoy in Donegal similar to the exhibition he gave on the benches over there; or I would like him to wait for the next election and treat the people of Donegal to a similar exhibition and await the results.

Mr. Dillon

Am I to understand that none but Irish spun woollen yarn is used in the manufacture of Round Tower tweeds?

Mr. O'Grady

No, the Deputy misunderstands me. I have said that none but pure wool has been used in the manufacture of these tweeds.

Mr. Dillon

What proportion of the yarns is imported?

Mr. O'Grady

There were 35 samples on the piece. Of these 19 of the warps were produced by the mills at Lucan, nine at Convoy in Donegal, and seven by Paton and Baldwin, and the wefts were produced by Paton and Baldwin. It required all the great powers of eloquence of Deputy Dillon to try to extricate his colleague from the mess into which he walked. I advise the Deputy that, if he really wanted to get information, if he had gone to the technical advisers in the Department they would have given him all that information and there would be none of the adverse publicity to which he has treated this House. The people of the Gaeltacht at the time were endeavouring, and with a certain measure of success, to get into the American markets, as I hope to prove later.

Mr. McMenamin

Good luck to you.

Mr. O'Grady

I got a report from the technical adviser, who does know something about tweed and has considerable knowledge and experience of the manufacture of tweed. This is his report:

"All ranges issued under the Round Tower trade mark are guaranteed as being of pure wool composition and have no shoddy content."

I would like to emphasise that, particularly as it has not been made clear to any of the speakers on any side of the House, and perhaps the wrong idea may have gone abroad as a result of the adverse criticism levelled from the opposite benches.

"The two ranges criticised by Deputy McMenamin are no exception to this guarantee. There are 35 patterns in these two ranges and the particulars regarding the yarn used are as follows:—"

I have already given you those particulars.

"With reference to the Deputy's criticism ‘that no man would put them on his back,' it should be pointed out that these cloths are not men's suitings or coatings, but a light-weight ladies' cloth of good quality, loosely constructed, to meet a special demand. It is obviously unfair and misleading to compare such a cloth with men's suitings or coatings for strength of texture. Furthermore, the test applied by the Deputy in proof of his contection that these two cloths were shoddy is no test at all, but a trick. Almost any cloth can be treated in this manner, including Botany worsted suitings, coatings and even the regulation Army materials—cloths that are subjected to a strain of from 310 lbs. to 450 lbs. weight pressure on modern textile testing machines."

While I am on that subject I may say that since then, we have had these very materials put to a test and we have had them compared in that test with the famous Harris tweeds that the Deputy was so anxious to give a cheap advertisement to.

Mr. McMenamin

I merely wanted to beat them.

Mr. O'Grady

You wanted to give them a cheap advertisement. Our tweeds, the Deputy will be disgusted to know, stood that test at least as well as the Harris tweeds.

Mr. McMenamin

Good.

Mr. O'Grady

The report goes on:

"It does not necessarily follow that because a cloth can be torn in the manner demonstrated by the Deputy that it is made of shoddy. The presence of shoddy in a cloth is determined by less spectacular but more accurate methods. All wool cloth, though loosely constructed and without any artificial finish, which is so necessary to the shoddy article in order to cover up its more obvious defects in the matter of quality, will outwear the latter, even though it may come off second best in one of these spurious cloth-tearing competitions."

I do not propose to weary the House by reading the entire report. Suffice it to say that we have at present an order for 12,000 yards of Round Tower tweed for immediate delivery to various American firms, and this is the time chosen by the Deputy to make his outburst. This business represents repeat orders from satisfied American customers. Additional substantial repeat orders have been promised and should soon be received, provided the Deputy's libellous statement does not succeed in sabotaging the valuable American connection established. I will conclude the statement with regard to the quality of the goods by reading for you a report from the firm of Charles H. Bates and Company, the Kilmainham Mills, Dublin, the finishers of the cloths:—

"We have pleasure in stating that we have experienced no difficulty whatsoever in the finishing of your hand-made tweeds. They are made from pure wool yarns and fast dyes. If they were shoddy cloths we would have been the first, as your finishers, to be aware of it."

That firm, with their experience, ought to know a little more about the quality of cloths than does the Deputy, and it is surprising, if his real motive was to help the industry, as he now alleges, that he would not try to go to one or other of these sources and get his information before he would come along here and do as much as he possibly could do to injure these industries in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. McMenamin

You know that is untrue.

Mr. O'Grady

Does the Deputy deny making the statement?

Mr. McMenamin

It was for the benefit of the industry, to get the best quality and the best quality only.

Mr. O'Grady

The Deputy has the most extraordinary ideas about benefiting the industries that I ever heard of.

Mr. McMenamin

I have been connected with industries in Ireland since I was six years of age, wearing homemade tweeds and nothing else.

Mr. O'Grady

We have been endeavouring to get into the American market, and with a certain amount of success. I have before me a covering letter from a firm in New York in which they state:—

"We have received your shipment of March 16th and are pleased with these patterns...."

and they go on to say:—

"We want to add that we feel that you have done exceptionally well in getting our ranges through as quickly as you have and the cooperative spirit that you have shown will help us in establishing an acceptance for the Beggar's Bush tweed in this market in a permanent manner and in increasing volume."

They go on further to say:—

"We are very anxious to get going on these various fabrics, and judging by the enthusiasm exhibited by our salesmen in convention, we should do well right from the start and it will not surprise us at all if we were to tax the limit of your capacity for some time, based on the production of 60 pieces a week which you recently estimated."

We have received an order to the value of £1,600 from that firm.

Mr. Dillon

Is that a retail or a wholesale firm?

Mr. O'Grady

Retail.

Mr. Dillon

What is the price?

Mr. O'Grady

I can give it to the Deputy at another time. I do not propose to use it now. I can give it to him later, if he is interested.

Mr. Dillon

I am.

Mr. O'Grady

They have also promised repeat orders, provided this consignment is as satisfactory as the last one. They promised repeat orders to the extent of £3,600, and this is the time chosen by Deputy McMenamin to spike our guns, as far as lay in his power. The Deputy has done an illday's work for the people he is supposed to represent in coming in here and boosting up the tweeds produced in another country at the expense of our own.

Mr. McMenamin

I did not boost them up. The only case I made was for our firms to beat them.

Mr. O'Grady

If necessary, I can quote the Deputy, because I have the Official Report. However, I do not want to weary the House by reading his statement. Any Deputy who doubts the accuracy of my statements can read up these debates and see for himself what Deputy McMenamin said, and whether or not he has not given a free boost to Harris tweeds. I should like to make it perfectly clear that the tweeds produced in the Gaeltacht are not only equal but superior to anything produced by the Harris people. I wonder will Deputy McMenamin want the people to know that?

Mr. McMenamin

My only object is to leave the Harris tweeds stone cold.

Mr. O'Grady

Deputy Dillon made a very good attempt to extricate Deputy McMenamin from the impossible position into which he walked.

Mr. Dillon

I may assure the Parliamentary Secretary that Deputy McMenamin stands in no need of extrication at all.

Mr. O'Grady

With all Deputy Dillon's great eloquence and skill, he failed in that, and Deputy McMenamin will have a difficult task in the future to explain to his own people what exactly he meant. Deputy McMenamin has failed to convince the House, at all events, as to what his real desire was. I can only describe Deputy McMenamin's statement by comparing it to a previous statement of his with regard to the price of kelp last year. He informed us that the price of kelp in Rathlin Island was £10 a ton.

Mr. McMenamin

I was told that by a man who had been in the business, and you promised £20 a ton when you were going to be elected and the Minister for Industry and Commerce promised £30 a ton.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think the Parliamentary Secretary ought to be allowed to reply without being interrupted.

Mr. O'Grady

There again I challenge Deputy McMenamin to produce any paper indicating that I ever made any such statement.

Mr. McMenamin

I did not say the Parliamentary Secretary said it, but the present Minister for Industry and Commerce said it when he was in Donegal.

Mr. O'Grady

I wonder is the Deputy in possession of his senses?

Mr. B. Brady

Sometimes.

Mr. O'Grady

Deputy McMenamin has stated that I made that statement.

Mr. McMenamin

I was referring to the Party.

Mr. O'Grady

Twisting again. Deputy McMenamin said that kelp was being bought in Rathlin Island as a commercial proposition and £10 a ton was the price.

Mr. McMenamin

I was informed by a man in the business that the British Government was paying £10 for kelp in Rathlin Island. That man was in the business. He knew it and I had no reason to contradict him. I put it forward for the information of the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. O'Grady

The Deputy added that it was purely a business transaction and it was getting no subsidy from the State.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McMenamin will have to allow the Parliamentary Secretary to make his speech.

Mr. McMenamin

I am not interrupting him at all. He puts questions and, if he does, they must be answered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must understand that rhetorical questions do not necessarily need an answer.

Mr. O'Grady

We followed that statement up through the High Commissioner's office in London and they could find no trace whatever of any such price, although they had made inquiries through the usual trade channels. Even the editor of the Chemical Trade Journal was approached and he regarded the price of £ 10 as absurd. We further followed that up and we asked the Deputy to inform us of the names of the purchasers, and received no reply.

Mr. McMenamin

No, for the simple reason that I never met the man until long afterwards. It was too late to reply then. It was for the Parliamentary Secretary's information only I mentioned the matter, for the benefit of his Department. There was no hostility about it.

Mr. O'Grady

I think I have delayed the House sufficiently long in dealing with that one aspect of Deputy McMenamin's criticism. That is in regard to the quality of the tweed. I think it is an ill-day for this country that a Deputy of any Party should come into this House and make the allegations that he has made. I have been advised that I should not, perhaps, take the Deputy's statement seriously, but, nevertheless, there is the fact that he has been reported in the Press as a member of this House, coming in here representing that area and making such statements and people outside the House who do not know him, particularly in other countries, may take him seriously. That is why I have dealt at such length with that particular aspect of the case made by Deputy McMenamin. I hope I have proved conclusively that there is absolutely no truth or foundation for his charge, and that there is no shoddy in the materials produced by Gaeltacht Industries. Before I pass from that perhaps I had better give you the result of the test, if you are interested, the test that has been applied as between our tweeds and the tweed of which Deputy McMenamin is so fond, the Harris tweed. The lowest pressure for Harris tweeds is 275 lbs. per square inch and the lowest pressure for ours is 276 lbs. The maximum pressure for Harris tweeds is 335 lbs. and the maximum pressure for ours is 336 lbs. so that I do not think we have anything to be ashamed of in regard to that test. It would be much better for the House, for the Deputy himself and for people interested in the Gaeltacht industries, if he would try to ascertain a few of these facts before he gets up in this House to make allegations which can be calculated only to injure these industries. Does he, or does even Deputy Dillon suggest, that these statements, preceding our representatives to New York, are calculated to get orders for these goods, if the statements are reported in the American papers? I do not think so.

The Deputy next referred to the poplin industry at Annagry. This was one of the industries which was closed down by my predecessor.

Mr. McMenamin

I did not mention Annagry. I asked about Crolly factory and its production. I was sorry to learn over the week-end that the Crolly factory was closed. It was only when I got the Donegal weekly paper on Saturday that I learned it was closed. I did not know that when I was asking about it on Friday. I thought it was closed only for a period. I now regret to learn that it has been closed permanently. I did not know that until I got the weekly paper on Saturday.

Mr. O'Grady

This is the Official Report of the Dáil Debates, Volume 75, No. 7, page 990:

"Deputy McMenamin: With regard to the poplin made at Annagry, I have a question to ask. I understand that the machinery set up there at a ridiculous cost had all to be scrapped and there is a start to make silk at Crolly."

Does the Deputy deny that?

Mr. McMenamin

Is the Parliamentary Secretary talking about Annagry or Crolly?

Mr. O'Grady

I have read out the Deputy's statement as reported. Here it is again:

"With regard to the poplin made at Annagry I have a question to ask. I understand that the machinery set up there, at a ridiculous cost, had all to be scrapped, and there is a start to make silk at Crolly."

Does the Deputy deny that he said that?

Mr. McMenamin

I was referring to the fact that when you came into office that was closed.

Mr. O'Grady

It is a wonder the Deputy does not say what he means.

Mr. McMenamin

I was simply asking about the Crolly factory.

Mr. O'Grady

The Deputy will regret to hear that we have nothing at all to do with it.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what has become of the Annagry factory?

Mr. O'Grady

The factory at Annagry was closed by my predecessor.

Mr. McMenamin

Is the factory at Crolly permanently closed?

Mr. O'Grady

We have nothing whatever to do with it. The artificial silk factory at Crolly is a privately-controlled industry and we have no connection whatsoever with it.

Mr. Dillon

Did you not lease it to a man?

Mr. O'Grady

That may be. It may have been leased, but I could not say straight off. We have nothing whatever to do with the running of it. If we leased it, it was the same as an ordinary person leased it at so much a year for rent.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary is unaware that his predecessor as Minister for Lands entertained this House on one occasion in my hearing for half an hour explaining how he was getting somebody to open the Crolly factory and instal an artificial silk business there and held us up to public odium because we were not as zealous in the matter as he was. As the Parliamentary Secretary is his successor in office, I thought he might be able to tell us how far the Minister has fulfilled the undertaking.

Mr. O'Grady

I have explained that that is a matter for private enterprise and, that being so, I do not think it is for me to enter into any detailed discussion about it.

Mr. Dillon

It is a private enterprise when it is closing, but it was for public consumption when it was opening.

Mr. O'Grady

That is not so. I think we might pass now from Deputy McMenamin. The next critic we had was Deputy Dockrell, who began by describing as a piece of impudence my coming to the House and, as he says, ignoring the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. The Deputy would do well to make himself familiar with the statutory obligations imposed on the Department. Government accounts are kept on a yearly basis and on the 31st March in each year an appropriation account on a cash basis is compiled and submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General who must submit this to the Dáil on or before the 31st January in the year following. In addition to that, under Section 5 (1) of the Exchequer and Audit Department Act, 1921, it is incumbent on Government Departments controlling manufacturing or commercial services to submit, in such form as may be approved by the Treasury, statements of accounts together with such balance sheets, statements of profit and loss, and particulars of costs as may be required by the Treasury. The commercial accounts of this Department in respect of the year 1935-36 were laid on the Table of the House on the 8th April, 1938; those for 1936-37 on the 11th January, 1939, and the accounts for 1937-38 have been presented to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. The presentation of these accounts has been somewhat delayed owing to the necessity for agreeing on the form, etc., with the Department of Finance. There is little reason to doubt that the accounts for 1938-39 will be presented within the prescribed date. Deputy Dockrell, despite that statutory obligation, wants us to present a balance sheet within three weeks. The Deputy ought to know that that is impossible and that it cannot be done; that it is useless coming to the House and asking year after year to have the impossible done. It simply cannot be done under existing control.

I should like also to point out that when the Deputy compares industries in the Gaeltacht with industries in the City of Dublin the comparison is not altogether fair. No commercial man will by choice go down to the Gaeltacht to start an industry. This Department does not go to the Gaeltacht by choice, but by necessity in an effort to help the people there. Here in the city you have all the facilities, such as a big population, a suitable centre for transport and distribution, and all the other advantages of skilled staffs and everything else which would appeal to any manufacturer. No commercial man in his senses would go down to the Gaeltacht, with all its disadvantages of remoteness from markets, extra cost of bringing materials there to be manufactured and the extra cost of distribution subsequently. No commercial man in his senses would dream of going there by mere choice. If this Department has to go there, it is in the interests of the State and of the people concerned in the hope of assisting them to provide means of livelihood in their native districts and, as far as possible, to give them some means of occupation in these very poor districts to which their forbears were driven in years gone by. It is obvious to any person reading the report of the Committee set up under the Chairmanship of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has found considerable reluctance on the part of would-be manufacturers to go to the West because of the obvious disadvantages I have referred to.

Deputy Dockrell went on to refer to the purchase of silk and its resale. That purchase of silk was made by our predecessors or under the régime of our predecessors. I should also like to point out that all our goods are made to order. The Deputy also referred to a loan of £9,300, I think it was, that was made to a firm which has since gone into liquidation. That loan was made not under the aegis of this Government or the previous Government, but by the all-wise Government which preceded them. The Deputy will be interested to know that that advance was made in 1917 and I do not think we can be held accountable for that.

Mr. Dillon

Is that the advance to the granite quarry?

Mr. O'Grady

Yes, made by the C.D.B. in 1917.

Mr. Dillon

What about the buttons?

Mr. O'Grady

We will come to that later on.

Mr. Dillon

It was a rather expensive game.

Mr. O'Grady

We will deal with it now if the Deputy is in such a hurry. The purchase of buttons began prior to 1934. Towards the end of that year changes were brought about by the Minister who was then in charge. The organiser of production, who relinquished office on December 31st of that year, had placed the order for the buttons and, on the re-organisation of the staff during the ensuing year, some orders which had been placed were continued. It was found when the new production manager and the designer came along that the bulk of the buttons were not of the type required for the industry. That was decided on the technical information available. I should have pointed out that during most of that year there was a vacancy for a technical adviser, as no one had been appointed in place of the man who had left.

Mr. Dockrell

That was at the end of 1935?

Mr. O'Grady

The incoming man had not been appointed, with the result that, after some orders that had been placed, it was discovered the buttons were not of the type required and, as Deputy Dockrell said, it was thought that it might be a good bargain to get rid of them. At all events, it was decided that they were useless stock to carry, and the buttons were sold.

Mr. McMenamin

Were they all the one class of buttons?

Mr. O'Grady

No. There were various kinds and sizes.

Mr. Dillon

Can we have an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary that the annual purchase of buttons by the Department does not exceed £1,260?

Mr. O'Grady

About £300.

Mr. Dillon

Are we to understand that they were obtained for four years before their unsuitability was discovered, and that then we had to get rid of the four years' supply?

Mr. O'Grady

There was an accumulation from previous years. Deputies will readily understand the position, seeing that there had not been a system of stocktaking until it was introduced by my predecessor in 1934. It was only when that system was introduced that we discovered this very valuable asset lying waste.

Mr. Dillon

I do not hear Deputy Brian Brady or Deputy Breslin exclaiming in horror.

Mr. O'Grady

On the question of industry, great play has been made that nothing has been done. It may be of interest to Deputies to see how sales have gone over a period of years. The sales in 1931 amounted to £4,722 and in 1938-39 to £14,457.

Mr. McMenamin

When the quality and prices were rising.

Mr. O'Grady

I question if prices were rising between 1931 and 1937-38. Certainly they did not rise from £4,722 to £14,457. I wish they had. Knitwear rose from £1,896 in 1931-32 to £26,772 in 1938-39. No toys were made in 1931-32. Although that was only recently attempted, the sales in 1938-39 amounted to £2,905. Unfortunately that factory was burned down accidentally in November. Nevertheless, we have been endeavouring to carry on in alternative premises, and we hope to resume in the new factory in due course, and to continue the industry there. I think it is very promising and, even at the present time, is giving a great deal of remunerative employment in the district. Sprigging in 1931-32 represented £873 and in 1938-39 £2,049. The total sales in 1931-32 were £7,530 and in 1938-39 £46,382. Accord ingly. I do not think it is correct to say that nothing has been done, in view of the fact that there has been a steady increase from year to year. I hope it will continue, and that in the future we will be able toreport even greater progress than has been possible in the past. I do not think there is very much to add with regard to kelp and carrageen. There has been very little change. If anything the position at the moment is more hopeful than last year. Experiments with seaweed are being carried on in Galway and Mullaghmore, and if these prove successful it is hoped that there will be an increase in sales. As Deputies are aware, there was a considerable loss in the past year as a result of the trading operations with regard to kelp. Over a period of five years the total loss amounted to £67,835.

The demand for edible carrageen has increased. The sales for ten months amounted to £741 as compared with £760 for the previous year. Incidentally, we contemplate an experiment this year regarding the production of kelp by direct labour and if, as we hope, that proves successful, it may be possible to extend the scheme to other districts. Complaints were made by some Deputies that more work was not done in connection with housing. I think all the work that could possibly be done by the staff is being done at present. Although the amount provided in the Estimate this year is slightly less than last year, that is only to keep in line with the progress that has been made in the past. A good deal of play has been made regarding the amounts sanctioned and spent on other schemes. It is not what is actually sanctioned is material but the amount actually spent during the various years. About £55,000 or £60,000 was spent over a number of years, and while I have not the final figures for 1938-39, for nine months the expenditure was £43,103, which would bring the total expenditure up to the average over a number of years. Comparison has been made between this Department and the Congested Districts Board, but it appears to be forgotten that this Department expends only a small fraction of the money that is expended by various other Departments of government in these districts, so that a comparison cannot very well be made between the Gaeltacht Services and the former Congested Districts Board. For instance, the work done in the congested districts then included the acquisition of land and the improvement of holdings, which was very useful and valuable work. That is now done by the Land Commission. In 1937-38, the Land Commission expended on improvements in these districts £470,000 and, as well as that, £330,550 was expended on employment assistance by the Department of Industry and Commerce, while the Board of Works spent on employment schemes £578,000. On special agricultural schemes £38,000 was spent on work carried out under the Department of Agriculture. The Estimate of this Department for special services including rural industries and Gaeltacht housing, which is now before the House, is £92,000. In other words, as can be seen from the report of the committee, at the present time there is anything from six to seven times the amount of money being expended in these districts than was expended by the Congested Districts Board.

Deputy Dillon has suggested what has been running in the minds of a good many people, and that is, the setting up of an independent board to deal exclusively with the Gaeltacht industries. I cannot say that I quarrel very much with that opinion, from my own experience, and the position is being examined.

Mr. Dillon

So the memorandum did some good?

Mr. O'Grady

Even before the memorandum arrived at all——

Mr. Dillon

Oh, the Parliamentary Secretary has no alibi.

Mr. O'Grady

——the Deputy can claim credit for it if he wishes—but even before the memorandum arrived that suggestion was mooted. I think that, if you look up the debates of last year, Sir, you will find that that suggestion was thrown out by both sides of the House. However, I do not want to rob the Deputy of the credit of his memorandum, and I do hope that it will be possible to give to whatever committee will be in charge more freedom of financial control. I believe it would be in the interests of these industries and that more progress could be made and that, as Deputy Dillon pointed out, perhaps greater risks of a commercial nature could be taken than could be possibly taken under existing circumstances. I believe that with freedom of action of that kind, and with a board manned by the right class of people—not necessarily too large a board, but a board consisting of people with knowledge of and sympathy with the objects for which the board would be set up—good progress could be made. Even under existing conditions, progress is being made as a result of the Exhibition in New York. It is rather amusing to point out, in passing, that Deputy McMenamin took us to task last year on the ground that we were not represented fully at the Glasgow Exhibition last year, but this year we are being fully represented in New York and, following upon some good orders that we have already secured, we are looking forward to an expanding market in America. The American market is a huge one, and if we could succeed in developing that market it would mean the giving of a considerable amount of employment in the Gaeltacht and would lead to a considerable expansion of the industries here.

Beyond that, I do not think there is much more left for me to say, but in conclusion I do hope that I have disabused the minds of anybody and everybody who may be under the impression—whatever Deputy McMenamin meant by his language—that there is some kind of shoddy material used in the production of tweeds in the Gaeltacht. That is not so. Every ounce of yarn used in the manufacture of these tweeds is of pure wool and is so guaranteed, and every yard of tweed sent out from the Gaeltacht is of that description. I think that anyone who has had any experience at all of wearing these tweeds will agree with me that the only objection that could be possibly made to them is that they last too long.

Motion put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to