I beg leave to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to make provision for the establishment and maintenance in Dublin of an institute for advanced studies consisting of a school of Celtic studies and a school of theoretical physics, to authorise the addition to such institute of schools in other subjects, and to provide for matters incidental or ancillary to the matters aforesaid.
Institute for Advanced Studies Bill, 1939—First Stage.
Is there anything to be said on this?
Not on the First Stage.
I should like to offer opposition to this Bill on the First Stage, in order to get some information from the Taoiseach as to what exactly is intended here. This Bill is being introduced immediately prior to the Dáil going into recess, and as the matter is mooted I think the Taoiseach ought to give the House some information as to what is intended. The Long Title, as shown here, suggests the putting up of an institute which will supersede, to some extent, our universities. The Title says:
A Bill entitled an Act to make provision for the establishment and maintenance in Dublin of an institute for advanced studies consisting of a school of Celtic studies and a school of theoretical physics, to authorise the addition to such institute of schools in other subjects, and to provide for matters incidental or ancillary to the matters aforesaid.
Now, I do not know what on earth that can mean except the substitution, by some other body, of the faculties, say, in the National University or in the other University in Dublin. It is for the purpose of getting an immediate statement from the Taoiseach as to what on earth is contemplated in this measure that I suggest opposition to the First Reading of this Bill.
It is not usual to enter into a discussion——
I do not ask for a discussion. I simply ask for a preliminary statement.
It is almost impossible to deal with a matter of this sort without entering into a discussion of it. The point is this: With regard to Celtic studies, it is quite clear that, if we want to do certain work, we want something in addition to what is provided at present in the universities, in the Royal Irish Academy, and in some other institutions which we have for the purpose of advancing Irish studies and Celtic studies generally. At the present moment, there is a huge mass of Irish manuscripts, particularly those relating to early modern Irish, lying unedited. For the proper study of those, and for their publication, we require an expert body of people at work over a considerable period of time. We have this situation at the present time: We have turned out from the Celtic faculties in the universities young men who show promise from the point of view of Celtic or Irish scholarship. Those, after spending a period of years in the university, and after some of them, for example, get travelling studentships and spend a number of valuable years of their lives in the study of the language, go into the Civil Service or occasionally into business or into the professions. The result is that those people, who are badly needed as scholars, to pursue work of a scholarly character, are lost.
Instead of providing scholarships of that sort it would appear to us to be very much better if the best of them— those people who were really fitted— could be availed of under expert direction to make available that large mass of material which is so necessary in order to give a literary background to the spoken language. It is bound to enrich the spoken language, and it is work which ought to be undertaken in a systematic way. The only way in which we can see that it could be done would be to get a number of experts, in the Irish language particularly, and put them in charge, getting from time to time those people who show that they are specially fitted for work of the kind indicated, and putting them to work on those documents, and editing them. We want, therefore, expert direction and expert knowledge.
In addition to that, I think there is work to be done somewhat of the type of the work that was done by the School of Irish Learning in the past. Those who would be in the institute and would be directing research could from time to time give public lectures in the two universities. In fact I think it should be made a part of their duties to give public lectures in the universities in regard to these particular matters.
The institute, therefore, would be of a two-fold character. It would have, in the first place, the systematic publication of these documents. It would have the provision of suitable text books. For example, there is no doubt that we want authoritative grammars. There is a need for a scientific examination also of the spoken language whilst the language is still spoken in a state of purity by people who have practically no other language. You have, therefore, the production of the texts, and the examination of this mass of material. You have the production of textbooks of standard types, such as grammars and dictionaries, and you have the scientific examination of the spoken language. In addition, you have the duty of giving lectures. I think there should be public lectures, open not merely to be public lectures, open not merely to students in the colleges at which the lectures would be given, but to members of the public qualified to avail of them.
It is in no sense intended to replace the existing universities. The existing universities have two main aims. One is to teach and the other is to conduct research. But, if you want to have this particular type of work done systematically, and if the State should, as I think it should, take over responsibility for seeing that it is done systematically for a time, I see no way in which it can be done except by the establishment of an institute of this kind. It is not unusual in university centres to have institutes specialising in work which is also being done in a less specialised way in the universities, and the establishment of this school, so far from being likely in any way to interfere with the work done, for example, in Celtic studies in other colleges here in Dublin, is much more likely to stimulate the work that is being done there. If we establish an institute of this kind, it would be well to have the framework of such a kind that, if at any particular time it was desirable from the public point of view to add other schools, there would be room within the framework for the establishment of such schools. For that reason there is included in the scheme an enabling power to add other schools, if the need or opportunity from the point of view of public service arose.
One of the purposes of the institute will be to attract here from countries abroad people interested in Celtic studies. On account of the large mass of material available and the part that the ancient Irish language, particularly, plays in Celtic studies, I think that we ought to be a world centre for Celtic studies. We ought to aim at making the institute one to which scholars from every part of the world who are interested in Celtic studies would come. If there are people abroad who have a reputation, the purpose of this institute would be to enable to be brought here, as used to be the case in the days of the School of Irish Learning, scholars from abroad to give courses of lectures here. But the main purpose would be to have a centre which would attract Celtic scholars from all parts of the world. In fact, it ought to be the beginning of trying to get back a little of the reputation which we once had as a centre of learning. The stress under which the universities work prevents them from specialising to the extent to which the institute would be able to specialise.
There is another direction in which I think we ought to aim at attracting students and occupying an important position, and that is in the realm of science. In experimental science there are tremendous difficulties. It would be of great value to have an institute doing advanced experimental work. But the equipment would be altogether beyond our means to do modern experimental physics. Research work would require equipment altogether beyond our means. There is, however, a branch of science in which you want no elaborate equipment, in which all you want is an adequate library, the brains and the men, and just paper. We have already in the world an important place, or had in the past an important place, in mathematics and theoretical physics. The name of Hamilton is known wherever there is a mathematical physicist or a theoretical physicist. This is the country of Hamilton, a country of great mathematicians. We have the opportunity now of establishing a school of theoretical physics which would be specialised in the same way as the school of Celtic studies can be specialised, and which, I think, will again enable us to achieve a reputation in that direction comparable to the reputation which Dublin and Ireland had in the middle of the last century. There are people who are available as professors or fellows, or whatever name we wish to give them in that school. I do not want to go into that matter now, because it is only when we have the Bill before us and the scheme completely copper-fastened, so to speak, that we will be in a position to mention names. But I know that we will be able to get three men of world reputation in that particular branch to start with. I venture to say that, when it is established, from the point of view of the eminence of the people in it, there will be no school in the world which can say it has better direction or better material than will be afforded by the professors or fellows who will be in the theoretical physics school.
There are other directions, too, in which we might reasonably hope to establish ourselves here as a centre of higher studies from a world point of view. I am not going to mention any of them now. Some may suggest themselves to other people, but there might be difficulties in connection with some of them which, in my opinion, do not exist here with regard to the two schools it is proposed to found. These will not be degree-giving institutions of any kind. They will be devoted solely to the advance of learning and the establishment of the reputation of our country as a centre of learning, which will bring students of the postgraduate type from abroad. I do not think we have any such at present except in certain branches. This is to attract such students, and to establish this country as an intellectual centre in regard to certain matters. It originated really in regard to the school of Celtic studies, and the idea is, in providing for Celtic studies, to utilise the opportunity we have with regard to theoretical physics, and generally to provide the framework if, at any time, it would be desirable to add schools of a similar character.
General Mulcahy rose.
There cannot be a discussion on this stage.
I am not asking for a discussion but I am asking the Taoiseach for a statement. I take it that the scheme is not drafted yet.
The scheme is drafted in the main. It is not in the form in which it will be circulated immediately as a Bill. There are certain conversations that I wish to have before I put the Bill in form for publication. This is to ensure that no time will be lost. The Dáil will not meet until October. The Bill will be printed and circulated during the recess and no further time will be lost.
I suggest to the Taoiseach that it does require very great consideration if a school of Celtic studies, such as has been indicated, should be divorced from the work of the National University, and I suggest to him that, between this and the time the final draft of the measure is put before the House, a very substantial case must be made before such divorce takes place. With regard to the school of theoretical physics, I think it was Bougaud who when a school of civics was being instituted in French State schools as a substitute for religious instruction wrote: It was "a pale flower without a root but not perhaps without a perfume". The development of a school of theoretical physics in this country at the present time would merit the same remarks in view of the position disclosed in the Education Department report on the position of mathematics in the primary schools and the recent change in regard to mathematics in secondary schools.
There cannot be any further discussion.
It is out of order.
The Deputy is discussing the position of mathematics in the schools. That is certainly not in order.
I understood that on the introduction of a Bill by the Government it was open to the Minister to make a short explanatory statement and that the Opposition could then make a short statement.
The Deputy is wrong.
In case the First Reading is opposed there may be one brief statement on each side. The Deputy made a brief statement at the outset.
Question put and agreed to.
Second Stage ordered for October 18th.
When will the Bill be circulated?
Some time during the recess.
Will it be circulated before October 18th?
Yes, because it will be taken up immediately the Dáil meets.