Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 1939

Vol. 77 No. 10

Fire Brigades Bill, 1939—Second Stage.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Dr. Ward)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. Apart from any special provisions in local Acts, the statutory provisions at present governing fire-fighting services are confined to the powers given by Section 73 of the Towns Improvement Act, 1854, which are not mandatory and which are restricted to urban districts and towns to which the Act of 1854 applies. The existing powers have been exercised only in the county boroughs and a limited number of towns. Part VIII of the Public Health Acts (Amendment) Act, 1907, enables agreements to be made between local authorities in regard to the common use of engines, etc., and also gives certain powers of entry on premises. These provisions do not, however, come into force unless and until the relevant part of the Act is adopted by the local authority. The power to incur expenditure under these provisions is left very vague and this is the only legislative provision which can be relied upon by rural sanitary authorities to provide for the fire-fighting needs of their districts. Apart from this, the only manner in which residents in rural areas could be served would be by means of a personal call on an adjoining urban authority by the owner or occupier of premises in the rural district. In such a case, the costs of bringing the urban fire brigade to the scene of the fire would have to be paid by the owner or occupier. In an effort to avail themselves of the existing limited statutory powers, rural sanitary authorities have taken steps in four or five cases to make arrangements with adjoining urban sanitary authorities in the counties of Dublin, Cork, Louth and Galway but their powers in this respect need to be extended.

The existing law is also inadequate in the matter of powers of entry, inspection and control as regards buildings where the occurrence of fire would constitute a peculiarly serious danger to life. It will accordingly be clear that more comprehensive and detailed provisions are necessary to enable local authorities generally to make better provision in connection with fire-fighting services. This Bill, therefore, proposes to make it obligatory on all sanitary authorities to make reasonable provision for the prompt and efficient extinguishing of fires in their districts and for the protection and rescue of persons and property from injury by fire. They may discharge this obligation either by directly providing fire-fighting engines, equipment and appliances for their districts or, alternatively, by securing that fire-fighting services are available for their districts by arrangement with other local authorities.

The Bill proposes to confer more extensive powers of organisation and control with a view to the prevention and extinguishing of fires and to confer these powers on all sanitary authorities without distinction as between urban and rural sanitary authorities. In considering what constitutes "reasonable provision" for the purposes of the Bill, sanitary authorities will be required to take into consideration the character of the district, the value of property which might be damaged and the probable frequency of fires. There is a further provision that, where a local authority has failed to make suitable provision in the matter, a complaint may be addressed to the Minister who may, by order, require the local authority to remedy the default. It is recognised that the interpretation of the term "reasonable provision" must vary in accordance with the character and extent of the area for which fire-brigade services are being provided. In built-up areas it will be necessary to ensure that water supplies are available in sufficient quantity and at an adequate pressure and that the necessary hydrants and other fittings are installed. The successful administration of the present proposals will depend largely on the response of the various local authorities. My information is that local bodies generally are becoming aware of the importance of this question. The programmes of public health works which have been carried out in recent years with the encouragement of the Department and the aid of State grants will greatly facilitate the operation of the fire-fighting system now proposed.

It will be the aim of my Department to try to secure a reasonably wide area of operations for each brigade and thereby simplify the fire-protection service as far as the special responsibilities of each sanitary authority will permit. Some local authorities may find it practical and convenient to rely entirely on the fire brigade maintained by an adjoining local authority, or there may be cases where, for geographical reasons, a local authority maintaining its own services may find it desirable to provide that the needs of portion of its area remote from the headquarters of the local brigade be served by the adjoining authority. In the event of difficulties being encountered by the sanitary authority which desires to enter into an agreement of this kind, the Minister will have power, on the application of that sanitary authority to require the fire-brigade authority in question to enter into an agreement on specified terms. Where formal agreements have not been made, a sanitary authority which maintains a fire brigade may authorise the officer in command of the brigade to send it outside the sanitary district and provision is made for payment in accordance with a scale drawn up beforehand for services.

The Bill also provides in detail for the control by sanitary authorities of potentially dangerous buildings and for the inspection of such buildings. The local authority will have power in the case of such buildings to serve notice on the owner requiring him to refrain from using the building, or part thereof, for the purpose specified in the notice either entirely, or until specified appliances, etc., are provided or specified alterations made. When such a notice has been issued the owner will have the right to appeal to the district court on any of four grounds.

It is proposed to authorise the officer in charge of operations at a fire to enter on any lands or buildings for the purpose of extinguishing the fire or protecting persons or property, and he may cause such lands or buildings to be vacated, demolish any building or part thereof and make use of any water supply, public or private. Where damage to property is caused in consequence of such action such damage shall, for the purposes of a fire insurance contract, be deemed to have been caused by fire.

The Bill contains provisions for the transfer to the sanitary authority of fire brigades, apparatus, etc., at present maintained by town commissioners. One of the objects of the present Bill is to promote efficiency in the organisation of fire-fighting services by constituting the local sanitary authority as the fire brigade authority in every case. Town commissioners are not a sanitary authority. Very few bodies of town commissioners have in fact taken steps to constitute fire brigades. The expenses of a rural sanitary authority in connection with the administration of the powers conferred by this Bill will be chargeable on the county health district. Towns under town commissioners form part of the area of charge so that it would be inequitable to require town commissioners who have provided fire-fighting services to continue to bear the sole cost of maintaining them after the Act has passed. Town commissioners may continue their existing functions in this respect until an appointed day which will not be fixed until the alternative organisation of fire-fighting services contemplated by the Bill is in operation.

Mr. Dockrell

We can all approve of a Bill which co-ordinates the fire brigade services throughout the country. I take it that the purposes of these brigades will be to co-operate with each other in putting out fires.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Dockrell

Well, it is surprising how you could bring in a Bill like this and forget all about fires. What strikes me about the Bill is that most of the fire brigades, apart possibly from Dublin and Cork, will have a very wide area to cover. Possibly, in one part of their district they will have to deal with a built-up area in which there are water pressure, water pipes in the street and stop-cocks, while in another part of their district the houses may be very far apart with no adequate water supply laid on near them, and no ponds or rivers available. Apparently, the Minister has not taken any power to vet. the type of fire brigade engine that will be required to fight a fire in a country district. We all know that the water supply available varies very much, and possibly you may have the country divided up into various classes, so that in one district there will be a one-inch supply and in a better district a two and a half inch pipe in use.

I would like to remind the Minister that these should be co-ordinated. For example, fire brigades might arrive at the scene of a fire from neighbouring districts and find that neither of them had any appliances which were of the slightest use in dealing with the type of fire that was raging at the moment. I would like to know from him if he proposes to make instantaneous couplings standard and compulsory. Is he going to use threads of one particular standard and pitch? How does he propose to deal with the difficulty that with arise in a district where there is no proper adequate water supply: in places where the water will have to be carried to the scene of the fire.

Years ago, when I was a youngster, I remember being aroused from my slumbers by the glare on the window from a neighbouring house that was on fire. A long delay occurred before the local fire brigade arrived. The burning house was on the borders of a district served by two fire brigade authorities. One of these was very much behind the other, because in its brigade station the names and addresses of the fire brigade squad were hung up but the addresses were not up to date. When the brigade arrived on the scene of the fire, unfortunately the water supply had been put to bed for the night, with the result that men had to be despatched on bicycles, a distance of many miles, to get the full pressure of the system turned on. Number 1 fire brigade arrived and put a stand-pipe on the street. They then proceeded to lay on the hose. When No. 2 fire brigade arrived they took off the hose belonging to No. 1 brigade and put their own hose on to the stand-pipe. In fact, they rather damaged it because the pitch of the screws was not the same. They failed to attach it to the stand-pipe, but they succeeded in smashing the threads of the stand-pipe so that when a further attempt was made to put the hose of No. 1 brigade on to the stand-pipe it could not be attached, with the result that the fire ultimately burned itself out. All these things could happen to-day and there is not the slightest provision made to prevent their happening.

Mr. Keyes

Would the Deputy tell us about the difficulty in the getting of the hose?

Mr. Dockrell

I would prefer that the Minister for Supplies who apparently does not take any interest in supplies outside this country, would reply to the Deputy. I think I have said sufficient in the matter of the standardisation. There is another point, however, to which I would like to call attention. In Section 4 (2) (a) it is being provided that "the occupier of the land, buildings, or other property in which such fire occurred if, but only if, such occupier or his servants or agent, before such brigade was sent to such fire, requested or consented to the sending thereof," should contribute to the cost of the fire brigade. But if he does not ask for the fire brigade to be sent he is not apparently liable for any part of the expenses. Now I could imagine some people saying, while their premises are on fire, "I do not care if the whole town is burned down; I will not ask for the fire brigade to be sent for." I would like to ask the Minister to reconsider this section. Does he intend making any provision for such a case as that where, let us suppose, the building is not of any great value, it is burning merrily or briskly.

Mr. Keyes

Or brightly?

Mr. Dockrell

Or burning anyway. In such a case there is, let us suppose, a person next door who has property and he may say, "I would like the fire brigade to call here." His property may be in immediate danger. Is he to call the fire brigade and is he expected to pay for the fire brigade? In this case there is the possibility that his property may never go on fire and it would be only for that contingency that he would have an interest in having the fire brigade called in. That is a point to which I would direct the Minister's attention.

Mr. Cosgrave

I have noticed a few points in connection with Section 4 which I would like to see specifically dealt with. Under (2) of this section it is stated

"a fee calculated in accordance with the scale prepared under the next following sub-section.... shall be paid on demand to such fire brigade authority."

The sub-section gives no information whatever as to the basis on which this is to be calculated. It used to be the case that local authorities found special pleasure in disagreeing with one another. To that extent such cases as have been mentioned by Deputy Dockrell are worthy of note. Again, there ought to be a standardisation of fire brigade equipment as regards hose, hydrants and so on. In the particular case mentioned where one of two persons may send for the fire brigade it may well be that it is the person who is not so particularly interested as the other may send for the fire brigade. It may happen too that in the case of that man his premises are insured and so on. The charge for the fire brigade in some of these cases may be considerable. One case came to my notice in which a man got a bill for the services of the fire brigade for something like £20. In that particular case the fire brigade travelled about three miles to his place. Obviously in that case he was being called upon to pay, perhaps. the whole expenses of the fire brigade for that day. That was a charge that could not be justified. Now if either of these two persons or if the owner or the sanitary authority does not send for the fire brigade it is not clear that either of them is bound to pay. Some other provisions should be made in this Bill providing for such cases beyond what is in the Bill at present. In Section 7 there is provided a penalty of £50 for non-compliance with certain specified regulations and an additional fine of £5 a day for every day of such noncompliance. These are penalties imposed in the case of precautionary measures. Very well. Then we come on to Section 10 where the Gárda are controlling traffic in the vicinity of a fire and where it is absolutely necessary that the direction of the proceedings should be in charge of some person in authority. The fine in this case on a person who obstructs or impedes a member of the Gárda in such circumstances is limited to £5. It would appear from that that a mischievous person who was engaged in the obstruction of the Gárda and in preventing the fire brigade from doing their work is fined only £5, but where a person fails to take precautionary measures the fine is £50 and £5 a day during the period in which he fails to take such precautionary steps.

Another section that appears to be ill-balanced is Section 6, which provides that

"where one or more fire brigades are present at a fire ... sole charge and control of all operations for extinguishing such fire shall be specified in whichever of the following paragraphs is applicable."

Then in (a) it says that if a sanitary authority has established a fire brigade and that the captain or officer of that brigade is present he should be in charge of the fire. One can imagine a fire breaking out some distance from Dublin City or Cork City. The municipal fire brigade turns up in command of a qualified efficient officer who is in every way capable of taking control of the whole thing. But the sanitary authority of the local village may have got a fire brigade of four, five or six men. Here we would have the situation that the local fire brigade officer is in immediate command. To me it does not appear that that is good business. The senior officer of the bigger authority should, in that case, be in command. He is more likely at all events to be more highly qualified and experienced. In my opinion the officer in command of a fire brigade should be a qualified engineer. There are certain risks involved in connection with fire fighting, and for dealing with fire fighting an engineer is certainly the best person to see what precautions should be taken in regard to his men. It looks on the face of it very stupid that a local fire brigade officer should have control and precedence over a highly skilled officer from the municipal authority. I think that section should be changed. Now I come to Section 14, borrowing by sanitary authorities. Almost every measure that comes up here makes provision that whatever moneys are to be borrowed for the carrying out of that measure shall not be reckoned as part of the debt of such authority for the purpose of any limitation on borrowing. Now everyone of these measures, mounting up as they are day by day, week by week, and year by year, give rise to an irresponsible frame of mind in the case of local authorities. Either these limitations ought to be done away with or the borrowing provisions under the Public Health Acts should be repealed. These provisions are objectionable. They do not really add to the credit of the local authority because anybody who is disposed to lend money in a case of that sort will first of all look at what things are excluded from the list which affects the limitation of the borrowing power of the local authority. Section 16 is a general section with regard to the expenses incurred by the Minister in the administration of this Bill. It is provided that these will be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas. This continues the centralisation evil and appears to be very costly. An extra staff is kept at headquarters. Under Section 5 it is provided that where there is failure of a sanitary authority to comply with this Act, a complaint in writing, signed by not less than 20 citizens, can set the machinery in motion. Twenty citizens are entitled to make representations to the Minister. That sounds very much like the initiative which is always costly. That will not work. Has not the Minister got at his disposal a sufficient number of inspectors who would inquire into these matters and have them dealt with by headquarters? All these costly experiments of former days ought, by this time, to have been eliminated from the services of the efficient modern State. I move the adjournment of the debate until to-morrow.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 16th November.