The Minister rather implied, when introducing the measure, that fees were already charged in dealing with cases such as those of which Deputy Dillon spoke.
Diplomatic and Consular Fees Bill, 1939—Committee and Final Stages.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."
Not exactly charged; the Court usually awarded a commission of 2½ per cent.
The section says that the Minister may, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, make regulations fixing the fees to be charged for such services. I would like to know whether that means that the regulations are going to fix a general principle on which fees would be charged, or the actual fees. The Minister indicates that, in a case such as that which has been discussed here, it may rest with the consul to decide whether a fee will be paid or not. That rather implies that the regulations that might be made here will be regulations fixing a general principle with regard to fees, and not expressing that fees of a particular nature will be charged. I think we should like to be clear as to the general principle on which the regulations will run, as far as that matter goes.
Then, the Minister indicated that free services were given before, and fees may be charged now. Amongst the free services that were given before, he mentioned the issue of writs of Irish courts on Irish citizens in some of those countries. I take it, when a measure of this kind is introduced, that there is a certain definite list of things to which it is intended immediately to apply this Bill. I wonder could the Minister give us a little more information as to the type of services which are going to be charged for in future. I take it that the services of our consuls in various places will be available free in many general ways for persons who call on them.
Cases once came under my notice where people in the United States wanted to get a certificate of birth or of marriage or of death. They can get that through the consuls and through the Department of External Affairs. There will be a scale of fees fixed for all these particular items. In many cases, if it were to be used, there probably would have to be a seal and a certificate attached to that birth certificate testifying that it was a true copy. I do not know; in some of these cases affidavits may be necessary. This would be done, certificates would be made out and seals used where necessary by the officials at headquarters, by some officer appointed for that purpose; and a definite scale of fees would be fixed for such actions. Frequently—I do not know how frequently, but sometimes lawyers interested in cases in other countries are written to here, in order to get a certificate of the custom of this country —the custom of the courts and the common law. Affidavits have to be made and seals have to be attached, and these are sent by the Department of External Affairs, sometimes direct to the countries abroad and sometimes through the lawyers here who are interested in cases or who represent lawyers in other countries. A definite scale of fees would be fixed for items of that kind. These are all that occurred to, me: there are others; probably the Department would give a full list, but these cases occurred in my time and they are types of cases that consuls have been asked to deal with.
I believe I was wrong in saying that the consuls themselves would have power in all cases to discharge the liability. They would have to get— where they want to release a person from the charge—the authority of the person acting for the Minister, in order to wipe out the fee.
On the question of birth certificates, I take it that anybody applying for a birth certificate will have to pay the usual fee of 3/7 through the Custom House. I wonder could the Minister say what additional charge could reasonably be incurred by, say, a person in America applying through the consular services for a birth certificate. What could reasonably be charged in addition to the 3/7?
There may be a small charge for postage or something like that. I do not know.
Does it seem worth while talking about a special charge to pay postage?
The Deputy asked for types of cases, and these were just those which came to my notice.
I would ask the Minister to look into the matter. Where a fee is already chargeable, normally to be paid here by a citizen, the fact that postage is paid between the consular office and here should not be regarded as a reasonable excuse for charging an additional fee.
There are such fees as those of a commissioner for oaths. They are very small here—about 2/- or 2/6, I think; and those of a notary public in the same way. I do not think that the fees in the case of consuls will be any thing much above the ordinary fees.
£2 is the charge for certifying a document for the American court.
£2; I did not know it was so high.
So far as my recollection goes, a commissioner for oaths here who is qualified to swear affidavits for use in the Supreme Court of Judicature in the United States is entitled to collect a fee of ten dollars or its equivalent. That is a small point, but one that ought to be made clear. At present, if I am in any difficulty about something or somebody in the United States, I feel at liberty to sit down and write to the consul about the matter and he takes charge of it and keeps me advised until it is resolved. What I want to know is, am I in the future to get a bill at the end of the correspondence: To advice given to Deputy Dillon, 6/8; to perusing Deputy Dillon's letter, ¾; and to writing letter to say that Deputy Dillon's letter has been received, 6/8?
I am sure the Deputy will not be charged for it. I have a list of the charges already in existence for these services and the highest fee in the list is £1. There are other fees of 6/-, 3/-, 9/-, 2/6 and 4/-. They are all small fees.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 3, 4, 5 and 6, and Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Bill received for final consideration, and passed.