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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Feb 1940

Vol. 78 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Primary Education.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £12,518 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Bun-Oideachais, maraon le hAoisliúntas Múinteoirí Scoile Náisiúnta agus Deontas-i-gCabhair, etc.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £12,518 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1940, for Primary Education, including National School Teachers' Superannuation and a Grant-in-Aid, etc.

This Supplementary Estimate does not arise out of any new services or extension of old services. It arises rather as a result of an attempt to cut the Estimates too fine. There have been from time to time complaints that in estimating the expenditure for the year the Departments are inclined to overestimate. In this case the error has been in the opposite direction. The best thing to do would be to take the items in order as they appear on the Paper. There is, first of all, a sum of £1,400, grant to training colleges. That has arisen from an error in selecting the basis for the grant. The grant to training colleges consists of two parts. First there is a sum of £30 per student actually in residence, which is intended to cover the cost of food, laundry and such expenses as would go up roughly in proportion to the number of students there. Then there is a sum of £45 which is paid, not on the actual number of students in residence, but in regard to each one of what is called the licensed number. That number was chosen from the point of view of what would be an economic efficient number, taking the overheads of the college into account. A sum of £45 is paid on each one of that number. The registered number in question for the two colleges was 240, whereas the number of students in residence was 180. There was a difference, then, of 60 between the number in residence and the registered number and in making the calculation the difference between the two portions of the grant was not fully borne in mind. Therefore, an error occurred in that connection. There would have been a saving on other accounts were it not for that, and this sum of £1,400 represents the difference.

The next item is refund of cost of training. Deputies may be aware that when teachers are trained if they enter the Civil Service or do not continue in the profession of teaching they have to make a refund, on a certain basis, of the cost of training. They are supposed to do that. In certain cases a refund was obtained where it was not really due and this is refunding a refund. The sum here is £668.

Next comes the biggest item, which is £17,000. It is big absolutely but not relatively, when you take into account the large sums on which the underestimation has arisen. It is not easy, on account of the new schools being opened and so on, accurately to determine the salaries and the sum that will have to be set aside for salaries for any particular year. In this case there has been an underestimation of the amount that is actually required by £17,000 and this is to make good that amount.

The next item is van and boat services. There is an underestimation of £1,600 there. That was due largely to the fact that the Crumlin schools were not opened as early as was anticipated. It was anticipated that they would open on the 1st April last, whereas in fact they did not open until the middle of July and in the meantime a children's bus service to a city school was continued. The service was fairly costly and is the main part in that item of £1,600.

Then we have superannuation of teachers. There is a sum of £7,500 in that case. There again, the charge for pensions is constantly increasing. At its maximum it is anticipated somewhere in the neighbourhood of £500,000 would be the annual cost of the service. In this case there has also been an underestimation of £7,500.

These items added together will give you the gross total of £28,168, but on other sub-heads there have been savings to the amount of £15,650, and that gives you the net additional sum for which we are asking the Dáil— £12,518. I do not know that there is anything further that I need explain, but if there is I will be happy to do so.

Sub-head C (1) provides for the payment of teachers, principals and assistants in ordinary and model schools. I want to say a word upon that, but before I say a word upon that I want to compliment the Minister for having to come before the Dáil for a Supplementary Estimate as a result of having estimated too closely. That is a fault to which few Ministers can plead guilty and, speaking as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, I can assure him that it is good financial practice and is a mistake into which he need never fear falling again. I think it is much better to ask for too little than for too much. The course he has pursued in this case spares the taxpayer's pocket and avoids raising the cupidity of his colleagues.

We are paying a very substantial sum every year to principals, assistants, and others of ordinary schools to provide primary education for our children. I recently had to direct the attention of the Minister for Education to the fact that certain pupils in a technical school were judged by the staff to be quite incompetent to derive any benefit from the instruction to be imparted there because the children were able neither to read nor write, having done their full course in a primary school. I am going to submit to the Minister for Education that there is a reason for that.

Now, let us not overstate the case. It may have been true in regard to some of those children that no matter what methods you employed to teach them, you could not have taught them to read and write. I admit that freely, but that certainly is not true of the whole 14, or 18 I think was the number. I am going to ask the Minister for Education because I believe him in this regard to be a reasonable man— I emphasise, Sir, "in this regard"—is it consistent with educational sanity to bring impressionable infants from their homes into school for the first time, none of these infants ever having heard a word in their lives but English, and impose upon the teachers the obligation of speaking to those children exclusively in a language not one word of which the children understand and in which the teachers themselves are far from fluent?

Has the Deputy ever read Standing Order 108?

I am sure I have, Sir.

I purpose to read it for the information of the House generally.

I never challenge the rulings of the Chair.

The Standing Order is as follows:—

"In the discussion of Supplementary Estimates the debate shall be confined to the items constituting the same and no discussion may be raised on the original Estimate, save in so far as it may be necessary to explain or illustrate the particular items under discussion."

I fail to see how the teaching of Irish could be related to any item in the Supplementary Estimate.

I am in your hands, Sir; but it seems to me that when we are appropriating money to pay principal and assistant teachers to teach in our schools, I might be allowed to state that they are not, in fact, teaching the children, that they are bewildering the minds of the children, and that many of the children are leaving the schools as ignorant as when they entered them. If that is not relevant to the business before the House, I do not know what is. You may say, Sir, that it might be better to raise the matter on the original Estimate.

It is distinctly a matter for the main Estimate.

If you rule in that way, Sir, I bow to your ruling.

I have allowed the Deputy to ask a question, but he should not pursue the matter further.

I do not even want to ask a question lest it might be thought that I was challenging your ruling.

The Deputy may put the question.

What I want to put to the Minister is this. Is it right that these infant children who never heard a word of Irish, and who have never heard any language but English, should be addressed exclusively in the Irish language by teachers who have an immensely difficult task in educating infants at all, but whose task is rendered 20 times more difficult by endeavouring to carry on that most delicate job through a language of which they themselves are not complete masters and mistresses? Here I want to parenthesize to say that I am satisfied that I speak French as fluently as 90 per cent. of the national teachers speak Irish, but I would no more think of imparting instruction through the medium of French than I would attempt to fly. Is it right to ask teachers who have no greater competence in Irish than I have in the French language to impart all the instruction that our children in the primary schools are going to get, from the first standard to the seventh, through the medium of Irish when not 10 per cent. of the children have any degree of fluency in Irish and when half of the teachers have not that degree of fluency which would qualify them at all to impart instruction through the medium of that language, never mind to impart it to children who have an imperfect knowledge of the language themselves?

A rather long question!

I shall not go further, because I propose to raise this matter further on the main Estimate. I would wish the Minister for Education to note that in raising it now, and in giving notice of my intention to raise it on the main Estimate, I do so as one who believes in the language, who learned the language and who loved the language, but who believes at the same time that the present method of education in this country is creating a prejudice against the language, and will ultimately kill it in our time.

The Deputy and I would not agree on the interpretation of the word "brevity".

I shall leave it at that. I look forward to raising it with the Minister when the main Estimate is before the House.

I think I had better not enter on the subject which the Deputy has raised, not even to the extent of answering the question which was asked. I think it would be much better to leave the matter over to the discussion on the main Estimate when we can debate the whole subject.

Vote put and agreed to.
Vote reported and agreed to.
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