asked the Minister for Defence if he will state whether he has received the application of Peter Gartland, Cornacarrow, Laragh Post Office, County Monaghan, for a pension under the Military Service Pensions Act, 1934, which was lodged in 1934; and, if so, when this man may expect to learn what decision has been reached in his case.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Military Pension Application.
As indicated in my predecessor's reply to a similar question on the 1st March, 1939, an application for a service certificate under the Military Service Pensions Act, 1934, has been received from Mr. Peter Gartland, Cornacarrow, Laragh Post Office, County Monaghan, and has been referred for report to the referee. The referee has not yet reported to me on the case and I regret, therefore, that I am not in a position to state when a decision will be communicated to Mr. Gartland.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, is the Minister aware that this man's application has been in the hands of the Minister's Department for six years? Surely, that is quite exceptional?
His application has been in since December, 1935. He delayed in forwarding the form himself, but I shall undertake to have the matter inquired into.
I am much obliged.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, is he aware that the delay in this case is due to the imposition by the board and referee of an obligation on the brigade committees to produce maps and records that would take at least three years to complete?
I am aware of that in respect to historical records.
Does the Minister not think that some steps should be taken to place funds or other means at the disposal of brigade committees in order to enable them to meet the demands of the referee in these cases?
There is an obligation on the referee to see that pensions are not given to people who are not entitled to them, and it is through the help he receives from the brigade councils that he can make his decisions. I think there is no question about the fact that the board and the referee must rely on local knowledge, to a very large extent, in their decisions. There may be delay, and I do believe there has been delay, in respect to brigade records being forwarded to the referee, but I do not think there is undue delay owing to other causes.
Am I to understand from the Minister's reply that, because of the non-receipt of the brigade committees' returns, there has been delay in the payment of pension claims since 1934-36?
Not wholly, but partly.
Is the Minister not aware of the fact that, up to the latter end of 1936, the referee accepted verbal evidence and written evidence in the case of applicants, and that it was in the latter end of 1938, and the beginning of 1939, that this new departure was taken that, not only evidence on behalf of the applicant has to be produced, but that a map of the operation concerned has to be shown, showing the details of the operation of the enemy forces and the national forces at the same time?
The referee is the sole judge of what he requires in that respect.
Does the Minister not agree that that is a load placed on the brigade committees which it is impossible for them to carry, for financial and other reasons, but for financial reasons chiefly?
I do not think so. If the brigade committee has not got the information, nobody has it. It is purely a question of the former colleagues of the applicant giving information which will be helpful to the referee and his committee when they are dealing with doubtful cases.
Is the Minister aware that this is not a question of supplying information; that it is a question of the purchasing of maps by the brigade committee from the Ordnance Survey Department, the cost of which is, in most cases of brigade areas, from £15 to £20?
There is no question of maps at all. It is merely a question of historical record.
If I go to my bag and bring in an order from the referee to that effect in relation to every brigade area in the Twenty-Six Counties, will the Minister still say it is incorrect?
So far as my knowledge goes, I am only aware that the referee and the board ask for historical records. The referee does not ask for surveys of the country or anything like that. The referee and the committee ask merely for historical records which will enable them to decide whether or not pensions will be given in these doubtful cases—whether the applicants are entitled to pensions after records have been forwarded by these brigade committees.
If I can show to the Minister that the referee has demanded of every brigade committee in Ireland the production of maps in regard to each operation in the brigade area, and that the production of these maps is going to cost each brigade committee £15, will the Minister then say that that is an unreasonable demand by the referee?
I will look into the matter; I will have it fully examined.
Will the Minister say if the only responsibility of the referee and the committee working with him is to adjudicate on pensions, or whether the Minister's Department or any other Department has assigned to the referee and his associates any responsibility for compiling purely historical information?
No. The referee is responsible in respect of the board over which he presides.