Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Apr 1940

Vol. 79 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Institute for Advanced Studies Bill, 1939—Money Resolution.

Minister for Finance (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

I move:—

Go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú go n-íocfaí amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas na suimeanna san is gá chun éifeachta do thabhairt d'Acht ar bith a rithfear sa tSiosón so chun socruithe do dhéanamh chun institiúide árd-léighinn a bheidh códhéanta de scoil léighinn Cheiltigh agus de scoil fisice teoiriciúla do bhunú agus do chothabháil i mBaile Atha Cliath, chun a údarú scoileanna do bhrainsí eile léighinn do chur leis an institiúid sin, agus chun socruithe do dhéanamh i dtaobh nithe bhaineas no ghabhas leis na nithe roimhráite.

That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of such sums as are required to give effect to any Act of the present session to make provision for the establishment and maintenance in Dublin of an institute for advanced studies consisting of a school of Celtic studies and a school of theoretical physics, to authorise the addition to such institute of schools in other subjects, and to provide for matters incidental or ancillary to the matters aforesaid.

General Mulcahy

The Taoiseach indicated on the last day on which we were discussing this Bill that the cost of this Institute for Advanced Studies was, in the early years, going to cost £15,000. He contemplated a situation in which it would cost about £26,000 annually. I would like to ask the Taoiseach if he would give some information as to the headings under which that £15,000 is to be spent in the early years; what part of that cost was to be absorbed by the Civil Service; what part by the housing of the various schools and how the money was to be distributed as between the professors and the other members of the staff? I would like also to know to what the scholarship provisions will amount? I think it is important that we would have some information on these points. I would also like to ask the Taoiseach what the reactions of these are going to be on the university? We pointed out, in the discussion on the Bill up to the present, that the proposals in this Bill are going to eat into the work done at the university. The Taoiseach says "no". On the scheme, as we have it, if you take one side of it it is going to eat into the work done at the university and take work from the university.

If you take another side—if this institute is going to be, in fact, the kind of institute that it is supposed to aim at—then I submit that students entering this new institute would have to get additional training in the university to what they are getting at the present time. If this institute is going to be the big thing that in a general kind of way it is painted to be, then the university, I submit, could not possibly prepare material for entering it. As they are at present they are not in the position to do so. They are in a position at present in which they ought not to be. They have no professors of comparative philology; no professor of phonetics, and it would be necessary to have a professor of paleology if the standard of work asked for was going to be done in the institute and if the ordinary university work was not going to keep the new students in the university. In the first place I would ask the Taoiseach to tell us what is covered by the £15,000 and if he would indicate to us why he demurs when it is suggested that there are to be reactions on the university if you have one or the other outlook that I have indicated?

Mr. Dillon

The Minister for Education I hope will lay aside the sensitiveness he has displayed so far in discussing this Bill. There is no need for the Minister for Education to regard any demurrer to any of the proposals in this Bill as a personal reflection on himself. He should lay aside his touchiness and amour propre in this matter.

Minister for Education (The Taoiseach)

Is it possible that we cannot have any discussion here in this House without personal recriminations of that sort? I think the Deputy has never got up that he has not thought fit to make personal remarks.

Mr. Dillon

That may be the Taoiseach's opinion but it is not mine. He ought to regard this business as an important public question and not be acting in a petty way, acting as a misrepresented person when he is not more misrepresented than anybody else. The Taoiseach should stand debate in this House without getting hit up about it. It is important on this financial resolution to direct the attention of the House to an aspect of the fortunes of the institute for advanced studies which, in my judgment, is important. It is the practice of the Department of Finance whenever public moneys are allocated to claim the right, even the duty, to examine their expenditure in great detail and to require the accounts to be rendered in the form that they require and that these accounts should be submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and as a result of that, submitted later to the Public Accounts Committee of this House. That is a procedure which is to be highly commended in regard to public expenditure. But where you come to the new purpose as I understand it of Bills of this character, that is to endow learning and to fill the gap that has been created by the disappearance of potential patrons, I doubt very much if that stringent supervision is appropriate. Either this council which will be responsible for the institute of advanced studies is a responsible body or it is not. If it is not a responsible body it should not be the council of the institute of advanced studies. If it is a responsible body then it is very much more competent to determine how best these grants should be spent than is Dáil Eireann because, to my mind it borders upon the ridiculous to bring before Dáil Eireann the details of the institute expenditure in matters relating to research and higher education, when not 5 per cent. of the Deputies of this House have the faintest notion of what it is all about, and are quite incompetent to judge of the appropriate expenditure that is to be undertaken. There is a precedent for this. Because when the Congested Districts Board was established in this country for the carrying out of improvements on small and impoverished estates in the congested areas in this country it was decided then by the British Government that it was not expedient to compel them to prepare accounts in the same way as other Government Departments had to do, because their work was very different and was specialised and that it was better to leave them wide discretion; under the circumstances that experiment was a great success. I believe that highly technical and difficult as the work of that board may have been the work of this council is going to be infinitely more so. My knowledge of the procedure of the Public Accounts Committee makes it appear to me that to require the institute to account for their moneys in the same way as a Government Department would make its work virtually impossible. I want to ask the Minister for Education what he contemplates. Does he propose that the bursar of the institute would appear before the Committee of Public Accounts as the accounting officer for those moneys?

The Taoiseach

No.

Mr. Dillon

Or will the Secretary of his Department answer to the Committee of Public Accounts for the expenditure of those moneys? I think he will find that the Committee of Public Accounts would claim under Section 26 of the Bill, as at present drafted, the right to get full particulars of any moneys expended by the institute, and would demand that the Secretary of the Department of Education, if he were the accounting officer responsible, appear before the committee, attended by the bursar of the institute, who must be ready to answer any inquiries put to him. If that is the position I think it ought to be considered, and that appropriate measures ought to be taken to correct it.

Mr. Cosgrave

Could we have some estimate of the cost of the housing accommodation which it is proposed to acquire or construct under Section 15?

The Taoiseach

With regard to the estimates they are, necessarily, at this stage tentative. First of all we have to envisage the fact that this institute will grow slowly. There is no intention to rush ahead. We want it to grow naturally, and natural growth is bound, in the circumstances, to be rather slow. That is particularly true I should say of the school of Celtic studies. My own belief is that the estimate made for the first year— it was made shortly before the war— will not work out as it is given here, for the reason that I do not think we will be able to have the institute going to an extent that would entail this particular expenditure.

For the school of Celtic studies it is estimated that, in the first year, a sum of about £7,000 will be required, for the school of theoretical physics about £5,000, and for administrative purposes a sum of slightly over £3,000, so that the total estimated expenditure for the first year is about £15,400. In the second year, it was thought that the expenditure in respect of the school of Celtic studies would have advanced to about £9,000, for the school of theoretical physics to about £5,500, and that the administration costs, which would include the provision of buildings, would have gone down to about £2,400 so that the total estimate for the second year would be close on £17,000. In the third year it was thought that there would be an increase in expenditure in respect of both schools with a slight increase in administration costs, the total running to close on £18,900. In the fourth year it was thought that the expenditure in the school of Celtic studies would have gone up to about £11,800, and that the figure for the school of theoretical physics would be £6,000. That seems to be envisaged as the maximum and continuing figure for that school. It was estimated that the administration costs would have gone up to £2,700, making the total for the fourth year about £20,500. In the fifth year it was thought that the expenditure in the school of Celtic studies would have gone up to about £13,300, the figure for the school of theoretical physics remaining steady at £6,000, and with the figure for administration purposes having gone up to close on £3,000, you get a total of about £22,300. The final figure envisaged for the school of Celtic studies was £17,250, for the school of theoretical physics £6,000 and for administration costs £3,700, making a total of practically £27,000—£26,962.

The administration costs, I take it, are intended to cover the rent of suitable buildings. The question of the construction of buildings has not arisen in regard to this because it is hoped that suitable buildings can be rented or acquired. As I indicated the last day, we may be able to get houses of the same size, for example, as the houses in Merrion Square. If we could get two or three houses of that type side by side they would be quite suitable, I think, at the start.

With regard to how far the work of the institute would encroach on the work done in the universities, I think I made it clear on the last day that its work was intended to be complementary to the work done in the universities: that it was intended that specialists, those who, for example, had reached let us say the standard of a travelling studentship in the universities would, if they intended to continue in their Celtic studies, pass on to the institute for more particularised studies. I do not agree that it would be necessary to equip the universities specially because this institute is here. A Chair of comparative philology ought to be necessary in the universities to-day even if no institute were set up. There may not be the same immediate incentive to establish it, but if the need exists at the moment for a Chair of comparative philology, I imagine that need would exist quite independently of whether the institute is established or not. With regard to paleography, a certain amount of work has been done in that regard already, so that any specialised studies would have to be undertaken by the institute itself in preparation for the examination of old texts. I do not know that I need say any more at present. We are not, I hope, going to have a Second Reading debate on the Money Resolution. It is proposed to take the Committee Stage immediately after the Money Resolution.

Mr. Dillon

Has the Taoiseach anything to say on the point I raised about the submission of the accounts of the institute to the Public Accounts Committee?

The Taoiseach

With regard to that I am of the same mind as the Deputy. It may be that, as the Bill is drafted, the accounts would have to be submitted to the Public Accounts Committee, but that was not the intention, and I will have the matter examined. My intention with regard to the accounts of the institute was that the same thing would be done as is done in the case of the universities, namely, that the accounts would be submitted to the Dáil and would be there to be examined, but that the minute scrutiny which is undertaken by the Public Accounts Committee would not take place, very largely for the reasons advanced by the Deputy which, I think, are well based.

General Mulcahy

I have no desire to make a Second Reading speech on the Money Resolution. I am trying to get some information with regard to the finances of this scheme. In the first place, I am trying to express my disapproval of the scheme before us and, failing to effect my purpose, to get information. I quite agree with the Taoiseach that, apart altogether from this institute and the doing of work of this kind in a separate institution, studies that should be done in the universities to-day in Irish would require a professor of comparative philology and a professor of phonetics.

Part of my point is that it would be much more satisfactory for the advancement of these studies to see that the proper equipment and money were available in University College for these things. I do insist that you are not going to make any progress here in a highly rarefied atmosphere without University College being equipped in the way I suggest. I ask the Taoiseach whether he will give some information as to how this money is to be divided between scholarships, professors, etc. I appreciate that there may be reasons why things will not advance on the theoretical physics side as quickly as he indicated for the reasons he suggested, but he has not indicated that there is any reason for slowing up the development of the school of higher learning. Therefore, I ask him, with regard to the school of higher learning, where he suggests that in the first year, outside administration expenses, £7,000 is going to be spent, how that is going to be spent as between professors, academic members other than professors, and scholarships for students.

The Taoiseach

The number of scholarships and so on will have to be determined in accordance with the terms of the Bill. They will have to be put up by the governing body of the school to the council, and the Minister will be involved, as there is a question of the amount that will be necessary. That is not easy to foresee. It will not be easy to determine in advance what scholarships will be required. With regard to the professors' salaries, there is one thing to be remembered—that there is no use in setting up an institute like this unless you have men who can be regarded as practically the best in the world in their class. In order to have professors of that sort, you must pay them a salary which will enable you to retain them. There have been instances to my own knowledge where very able men, whom it would have been a benefit to the country to retain here, were attracted elsewhere by higher salaries. Whilst we cannot enter into intense competition with much richer countries, at the same time we ought to be able to have such a standard of salaries as will reasonably retain men of that class. Therefore, you must have a high standard of salary.

With regard to the scholarships, I expect that we will have to introduce in the usual way an Estimate for the moneys required. This is only a general resolution, and we will have to bring a detailed Estimate before the Dáil when the school is set up and when the moneys are required, which will be the time when we can have this more detailed examination which the Deputy seems to want now and which I am not in a position to give. It is right, of course, that we should get a general view of what we are undertaking and what are likely to be our total commitments. As regards the details and the manner in which the particular sum will be allocated, I think that will come in more naturally when the Estimate, which will have to be brought in, will be before the Dáil. I cannot give the information asked for with regard to the scholarships, because that will depend very largely on the view which will be taken by the governing body and the council of the institute with regard to the scholarships. For instance, it may be desirable to attract students from abroad in the early years in order that the school may become well known. It may be necessary to offer scholarships which will attract such students. We want to have here an inducement to our own people to pursue those studies which will lead up to that. It may be necessary to have a few scholarships of that type so as to enable these to come forward.

In my opinion, the great value of the Institute, particularly of the school of Celtic studies, will be that young students going into the Celtic faculty, for example, and who may be found to have special abilities and special knowledge, will feel that there is an opening through which they can have practically a career of scholarship. As I have said, the work will take 20 or 30 years to complete. The governing body of the school and the council will have to be careful not to get any assistants for this work except those who are really first-class and who have already given proof, or will quickly give proof anyhow, that they would themselves be capable of advancing, say, to the standards already attained by the senior professors. Unless you have people of that sort who are skilled and able, there will be no point in bringing them into the school. But, if there are such, the school will give an opportunity of keeping them. Instead of having them attracted from these studies to the Civil Service or to teaching, there will be an inducement for them to continue, because they will have a life work or the greater part of a life work ahead of them in that direction.

It is a much better scheme for securing scholarship and devotion to Celtic studies than would be the giving of scholarships, such as the travelling scholarships in the university. These are useful for a year or two. After holding these scholarships and studying abroad, at the end the students see nothing before them. Very often you have examples of students who have been given travelling scholarships in the university giving up these scholarships and going in for Civil Service examinations for getting into some other vocational activity. Here it is not so much the scholarships that will be directly given that will count. It is the number of assistant-ships, if I might call them that, which will be available for editing those manuscripts under direct supervision. I hope the governing body and the council will be most particular as to the people whose services they will avail of as assistants in the early years, so that it will be known that nobody but a person who is really first-class, who has proved himself capable of being a scholar in the proper sense of the word, will be allowed into the institute at all. Further than that I cannot go, I am sorry to say. I think the Deputy will agree with me that at this stage all we can have in mind, is what our general commitments will be. I hope I will be able to give much more accurate estimates when we come to the consideration of the Estimate itself.

General Mulcahy

I should like to assure the Taoiseach that I am not attacking the principle of giving high pay to a person capable of doing first-class work. But I do not think a general idea of the cost is sufficient at the present time. We know the amount of money we are asked to spend and to take liability for. What we are concerned with then is the foundational strength of the institution itself. In asking to have the £7,000 for the first year divided up as between professors, assistants, and scholarships, I am not so much interested in the scholarship end as in getting a picture of the amount of money that is going to be spent on professorships and on senior academic members. If the Taoiseach wants to give the House any confidence in the scheme we shall have to have a discussion of the personnel to some extent. This is a Government measure. It provides that the Government shall have the deciding voice ultimately as to the remuneration that will be paid to the individual persons. I agree that you will want to have in charge of the work the best men that you can get in the world.

I take it that this Bill is not presented to the House, eight or nine months after permission was asked to introduce it, without there being a Government survey of the material available in the world and without being clear as to the particular personnel that is going to be the foundational professorial staff of the institute. It is for the purpose of getting information as to the foundation strength in professorial power that I make the point in regard to the £7,000. I do not want to link up particular persons with particular amounts, but perhaps the Taoiseach could answer the question as to how much of the £7,000 for the first year is going to provide for professorial services. If he could answer that point at this stage, I do not want him to go into further detail, but at a later stage we shall have to consider the personnel.

The Taoiseach

My intention, originally, was that we should have three senior professors in both schools.

General Mulcahy

Three in each?

The Taoiseach

Three in each—that was my intention at first. In the School of Celtic Studies, I hope that we shall be able to get a man who is distinguished particularly in old Irish to start with. Old Irish would be regarded as his particular qualification. Next I had hoped to get a man whose knowledge of what I might call classical modern Irish would be regarded as his particular qualification. Then I was anxious to get somebody in this country—if there were such available within the country, and, if not, without the country—whose knowledge of languages other than Irish—for example, Welsh and Breton—gave him special qualifications or eminence in these Celtic languages other than Irish. Now at the moment I have only two such men in mind and if we got this Bill through and were starting immediately I would propose to have only two senior professors appointed, my idea being that the moment we got a suitable third person of the type indicated his services could be secured. At the start, therefore, we would have two professors. Those whom I would propose are well known to Deputies on the opposite side also. They are two Irishmen who would particularly stand out in regard to the qualifications I have mentioned concerning old Irish. It happens that both of them know modern Irish and middle Irish, too.

General Mulcahy

If appointed, is it to be assumed that their appointment will deplete the personnel of our university staffs?

The Taoiseach

"Yes" and "No" perhaps would be the best answer to that. The point I have to explain is that their services may not in any case be available. One might not be available from University College.

General Mulcahy

If they were available, would their appointment mean a depletion in the staff of the university?

The Taoiseach

If both were available, in a sense their appointment would have that effect. If the Deputy pursues that matter it would inevitably drive me into mentioning names and I do not think that is right at this stage.

General Mulcahy

I will not ask for the names if the Taoiseach will give me the information I have asked a little more fully.

The Taoiseach

I cannot do that because I would have to explain the matter a little further.

General Mulcahy

The Taoiseach understands my difficulty?

The Taoiseach

I do. We understand each other so well that we do not need words to express our understanding.

General Mulcahy

I would not suggest that the Taoiseach and I should go into a back room to discuss this matter. It is a matter affecting mathematics in the secondary schools.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy will have a splendid chance of meeting me on the Estimate in regard to that question. I am sure he and his colleague on the Front Bench will avail of that opportunity, because these are matters of importance and I shall be very glad as Minister for Education to hear them on these matters. I think that we shall have to get ahead at the moment with the answers I have given. If the Deputy wishes I shall say "Yes" to his question. That is the nearest answer I can give him, but it is only of the half-way order. It is the nearest bulk answer I can give.

General Mulcahy

That is, that if these men are satisfied to do this work and if they are available, it will mean that their appointment will deplete the present university staffs?

The Taoiseach

All right; I shall answer "Yes", but if I were to go into more detail, I should have to modify that to a certain extent.

General Mulcahy

Is the explanation that they are likely to be part-time in the university and part-time at this work?

The Taoiseach

No; that is not the answer.

General Mulcahy

Then I give it up.

The Taoiseach

I do not know that there is any further question connected with the Resolution that I should go into at this stage. It is intended that the institute will co-operate to a certain extent with the university colleges here in Dublin and that there will be lectures in these colleges. I indicated on a former stage of the Bill that it would be part of the duty of the professors to give lectures alternately in, say, University College, Dublin, and Trinity College on particular matters in which they were themselves interested, so that they would be in close touch with the university colleges in that way. There would, naturally, also be meetings with the professors. If you have an institute of that sort, the professors in the faculty of Celtic studies will naturally be meeting the senior professors of the institute from time to time. If there is any particular matter on which the professors of the colleges would like to have their opinion, they would be at hand and available here in Dublin. Instead of speaking of this as something altogether divorced from the universities, Deputies should understand that the professors of the institute will be in close contact with the universities. They will give lectures there, as I have told you. In addition they will be getting a number of advanced students. There is no use in taking students who have not advanced to the master's degree unless there happens to be an individual like Hamilton himself, in which case he could go practically anywhere. I suggest that at this stage it is not desirable that I should be asked for further information.

General Mulcahy

I realise that I have extracted as much information as I can get from the Taoiseach but that does not say that I am in favour of the Resolution, because I am against the scheme.

Question put and declared carried.

Resolution reported and agreed to.