Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1940

Vol. 80 No. 12

County Management Bill, 1939—From the Seanad. - Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) (Bye-Elections) Bill, 1940—Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. Ruttledge)

I move this Bill be now read a Second Time. Article 18, paragraph 10 (3) of the Constitution requires that casual vacancies in the number of the elected members of Seanad Eireann shall be filled in the manner provided by law. This Bill contains the necessary legislative provision for filling a vacancy caused by the death, resignation or disqualification of a member elected as a panel member. At a general election of members to Seanad Eireann, five panels are formed each of which contains the names of candidates who possess the qualifications required by the Constitution in respect of the particular panel. The number of candidates to be elected from each panel is fixed by Section 44 of the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act, 1937, that is to say—five from the cultural and educational panel; eleven from the agricultural panel; eleven from the labour panel; nine from the industrial and commercial panel and seven from the administrative panel. Whenever a vacancy occurs among the members elected from a particular panel it is proposed that the qualifications necessary at a general election for nomination to that panel, will apply equally to the filling of the vacancy, so that, as between the different interests and service, the constitution of the Seanad will be maintained. There is also a sub-division of each panel into a nominating bodies sub-panel, and a Dáil sub-panel. This sub-division of panels is continued in the Bill. Thus, if the person whose vacancy occasioned the bye-election was elected on the nominating bodies sub-panel, the vacancy will be filled as a nominating bodies vacancy and if on the Dáil sub-panel as a Dáil vacancy.

The proceedings at a bye-election are originated by the giving of notice, on the direction of Seanad Eireann, to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health of the occurrence of the vacancy. The Minister will, not later than 180 days after receiving the notice, issue an order appointing the necessary dates for the election. A separate bye-election will be held to fill each casual vacancy.

The Bill provides for the constitution of a permanent standing committee for each panel. This committee will consist of three persons nominated by each nominating body for the time being registered for that panel. The committee will be permanent, but individual members will continue their membership only so long as the nominating body by which they were nominated continues to be registered and does not revoke their appointment.

Whenever a vacancy in a nominating bodies sub-panel is to be filled, the members of the standing committee for that panel will be summoned to attend a nomination meeting. It will be the duty of the members of the standing committee at the meeting to nominate three proper and qualified persons, of whom one will ultimately fill the vacancy.

A member of the committee may nominate a candidate at any time within one hour after the commencement of the meeting, and may withdraw his nomination. By this provision for a nomination meeting it is intended to afford to the members of the committee an opportunity, if they so desire, of discussing among themselves possible candidates, quite informally. If there is general agreement on three candidates, and no further candidates are nominated, the meeting will terminate.

If more than three candidates are nominated, the meeting will be adjourned in order to take a poll. The adjournment will, it is intended, be only for so long as is necessary to prepare ballot papers. At the voting a member may vote for one, two or three candidates. The returning officer will count the votes and announce the result to the members present. The candidates will all be persons having knowledge and practical experience of the interests and services to which the panel relates. In such conditions it does not seem necessary to require that the election be according to the principles of proportional representation; a simple direct election is sufficient. Secrecy will be maintained, so that at the counting it will not be possible to ascertain how a particular person voted. No code of rules for counting, such as apply at a Dáil election, appears in the Bill and the procedure will be as informal and simple as possible. Any question which arises at or in relation to the taking of the poll is to be decided by the returning officer.

If, after the ruling on nominations, less than three candidates stand nominated, the proceedings must commence afresh. If three candidates stand nominated, their names will be arranged in alphabetical order in a list which will be sent to the Taoiseach. From those names he will select one of the persons named to fill the vacancy.

If the vacancy occurs in the Dáil sub-panel of a panel, a candidate for election must be nominated by one Deputy or proposer and by eight other Deputies as assenting. A sitting which will be attended by the judicial referee, will be held to rule upon the nominations. If only one person stands nominated, the Returning Officer will declare that person elected. If more than one person stands nominated a poll will be taken under which the members of dáil Eireann will vote by post. A standing electorate corresponding to the special electorate constituted for a general election of members to the Seanad, for the sole purpose of voting at such bye-elections to Seanad Eireann as may occur, is not suggested. Such an electorate would be difficult and troublesome to maintain from day to day, and without any practical advantage over the electorate proposed in the Bill.

Mr. Brennan

We have had presented to us a Bill for the filling of vacancies in the Seanad. Like the original Bill, it has shackles and fetters and embellishments of all sorts. It appears to be a kind of joke following a previous joke. We are to have a nominating committee and we have set out what the nominating committee is to do; but exactly what it will do is quite another matter altogether. The whole thing appears to be a very unsatisfactory way of dealing with what, I suppose, is an unsatisfactory matter. There is nothing clear-cut about it; in the beginning there was not anything clear-cut about it. The vocational system would work all right if it had reached the stage in which it could be got to work. At the present time we are trying to meddle with something which is not really in being at all; consequently we have this Bill brought in. If it meets the purpose of electing somebody, I suppose it cannot be much worse than what we had. Following the original Bill for the setting-up of the Seanad, the way in which it was drafted, and the embellishments which it contained, I suppose we could not expect anything but something of this sort to follow. We have really no objection to the passing of the Bill. Something had to be done to fill the vacancies as they occur, and the Minister thinks that this is the way to do it. It is a very imperfect Bill, but we have no objection to its passing.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister ought to reconsider this whole question, not only this particular Bill, which is more in the nature of a stop-gap than anything else, but the whole system on which the Seanad is elected is a humbug and everybody knows it. If proof is asked for it cannot be given, just as in the case of anybody who is interned. Everybody knows that it is an unsatisfactory system. It is open to the gravest possible objections of every sort and kind. The Seanad is no more a vocational Seanad than any elementary school in the country is a vocational school. This Bill is a very complicated measure. One might as well say that on a given date the Taoiseach will receive representations in respect to persons suitable to fill the vacancies and that any of the bodies qualified to nominate could send in a nomination. The Minister ought to reconsider the whole question. The maintenance of the present method of electing the Seanad is not a credit to this country and it ought not to be maintained. There are the same objections to this measure inasmuch as it perpetuates a system of that sort, that is not alone unsatisfactory, but unsavoury and objectionable in every respect.

Mr. Ruttledge

I do not agree with Deputy Cosgrave that the system is open to the objections that he thinks have shown themselves. The vocational system that has been attempted in the Seanad is in its very early stages, and it is only with some little experience that we can see how it will work out. No system in its beginnings can be perfect. When it has been in operation for some time, whatever imperfections there are—if there are imperfections—or whatever abuses disclose themselves, can be removed. It was mentioned that representations might be made to the Taoiseach direct. If you do that, I am afraid that, so far as the vocational system is concerned, you might get a very unbalanced Seanad. You might have groups that have representation on a nominating body voting for a particular person, who might not belong properly to their group at all, and the reason for following these lines is to ensure, as far as possible, that a vocational Seanad is maintained.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, June 6th.