asked the Minister for Defence whether arrangements have been made either orally or in writing by which a Deputy of this House should recruit labour for employment in Haulbowline, Cobh; and, if so, whether he will state on what grounds it has been decided to refrain from recruiting labour through the employment exchange.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Employment in Haulbowline.
As I pointed out in reply to a question on this subject on the 7th instant, arrangements for the appointment of suitable and reliable tradesmen and labourers are made by the Department of Defence because of the special care which must be taken in the selection of civilians for employment at military posts. In the case of the recruitment of labour for employment at Haulbowline, Cobh, responsible persons residing locally, including a Deputy of this House, were requested to nominate suitable persons for employment.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, is that Deputy a member of the Government Party?
He is.
What harm will that do?
My allegation is—and I have asked the Minister has he made inquiries into it—that this thing is a political racket in Haulbowline as far as his Party is concerned.
The Deputy had better put his supplementary. Deputies are permitted to ask questions to elicit information, not to make allegations.
The question I want to ask the Minister is whether he is aware that Haulbowline is not a military post. The military post is at Spike Island. I want to ask him further, whether he is aware that those people who were recruited were members of his Party.
No, that is not correct. The post is a military post. A work of construction is being undertaken on behalf of the military, and there is no question whatever of a racket.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, does he not consider it a highly undesirable and improper procedure to give into the hands of one Deputy of this House who happens to represent this constituency——
The Deputy does not represent this constituency. He represents West Cork.
—— to give into the hands of a Deputy who happens to represent West Cork, a neighbouring constituency, the right to decide who is to work on a scheme of this kind which is being financed out of State moneys. If the Minister must continue the arrangement of invoking the assistance of Deputies, then I think it should be done by the Deputies of all Parties, and not by any one Deputy of any one Party. The whole procedure, I think, is highly improper.
I have no objection to any Deputy of the House making representations to me in respect of any of his constituents who are in a position to undertake work. The Deputy in question is a Deputy who gave distinguished service to this nation in the past. He is a prominent officer in the Local Security Force now, and I am not going to make any apology to this House for the fact that I asked for men for this military construction work who had either given national service in the past or who are giving it at the present. It is on that basis I approached the matter.
Does the Minister consider the undesirability of drawing any national red herrings across these things? Will the Minister say if the Deputy in question is a Deputy for the constituency in which Haulbowline is, and, if not, say for what constituency he is a Deputy. Has the Minister any objection to giving the name of the Deputy.
None whatever. Deputy O'Sullivan.
From where— West Cork?
Yes.
Would the Minister not consider, if he feels that he cannot rely on the normal labour exchange machinery, associating other Deputies with that work? Obviously, the whole arrangement has a very bad political complexion as it stands at the moment.
The circumstances which I had in mind would not be taken into consideration by the labour exchanges: that is the seeking of men who have given national service or who are giving national service at present.
Is it seriously suggested that it is now the policy of the Executive Council to ask members of the Fianna Fáil Party to go out and choose public servants?
That is the position.
Because it appears to me to be a gross form of political corruption. That is the way it looks to me. I can understand that an error has been made or that something has been overlooked or that that aspect did not present itself to the Government, because anyone can make a mistake of that kind, but surely it is not going to be laid down as the correct practice for all future time that a Minister of State is to ask political supporters of his own to go out and choose Government employees, because that is the system obtaining in Liberia, but I do not think there is any other civilised State in the world that would permit of such an arrangement. Probably there has been an oversight. If so, well and good, but is it the policy of the Government?
It is my policy anyhow, as far as I can, to provide work for men who have given national service either in the past or who are giving it at present. I am not endeavouring to draw any national red herring across this question at all, but I am saying that there were other circumstances why this could not go through the normal course.
Is the tuning fork, in order to describe the note, to be a member of the Minister's own political Party?
No. I could not at the moment say who was employed or who was not employed. They were employed irrespective of what political Party they were members of, provided they could give an assurance that they had given national service or were giving national service at the moment.
The statement has been made to the Minister by a Deputy of this House that the local belief was to the effect that it was all a political racket. The Minister gives evidence in favour of that belief by saying that the person who selected them for employment was a member of a political Party. In view of that, will he reconsider the whole arrangement?
Would the Minister say what special knowledge that Deputy had of the people and of the conditions in Haulbowline which is not in his constituency at all, even on the national record side? What knowledge had he of those people? Will the Minister tell the House if the extracts from the letters which I have sent him are correct or not, and if he has investigated those letters in which it has been pointed out that it was only on the production of a certificate or a chit from the local Fianna Fáil secretary that people got employment in Haulbowline?
There is no truth whatever in that statement.
I have asked the Minister if he has investigated the matter.
I have thoroughly.
Is the Minister aware that Deputy Ted O'Sullivan lives more than 120 miles away from Haulbowline: that he lives in a different constituency, in West Cork.
May I ask the Minister if this is the first time we have had an example such as this in the administration of the affairs of this State?
More red herrings.
Surely the Minister is not going to leave the House under the impression that it is the established practice of the Executive Council——
Questions are put to a Minister on matters for which a Minister is responsible—not the Executive Council.
Perhaps if I am allowed to ask the question it may be found to be in order. Is the Minister going to leave the House under the impression that, acting with the full consent of the Executive Council, he lays it down as a proper practice for the Department of Defence that public servants are to be chosen by individual members of the Fianna Fáil Party, because for the sake of public decency and the public life of us all, let not that go on record? It does not matter whether you have a Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fáil Government. Surely to God we are not going to turn the ranks of our Parties into job-hunting organisations?
There was no question whatever of that.
Has the Minister not said that he asked a member of his own Party to go and choose these people? I am not asking him what criteria he laid down for that man to determine his choice upon. The fact that he went to a politician and a member of a political Party in order to make the choice is surely open to question.
May I put this consideration, because I think the Minister misunderstands the point? The point raised is not a question of the national record of the people to be employed. That can be provided for and safeguarded, even if the men are recruited through an exchange, by the simple device of saying that they must produce evidence in that connection. The point at issue in this case is that it is a highly improper and, in fact, a disreputable procedure to allow people to be recruited into the public service on the nomination of a Deputy of any Party, whether Government, Fine Gael or Labour. That is the objectionable feature, and I suggest to the Minister that he ought now, in the public interest, get away from that method. The Deputy in question may be the most estimable Deputy in the world— that is not involved either; it is the practice which is objected to.
The Deputy was approached by me not in his capacity as Deputy but in his capacity as an officer of the Local Security Force who would be competent to state where it would be possible to get the people who I desired should be secured.
Is the Minister serious in telling us that a Deputy from West Cork, 100 miles away from this place, is a suitable man to recruit these men, even with the highest estimation of his character and probity?
He was suitable to give service all over Cork during another period.
That is not the point at issue.
We all did that.
Is the Minister in a position to give the House a copy of the letter he addressed to the Deputy on the matter?
I did not write a letter. I rang the Deputy. I received the information on the Friday that these people were required on the following Monday, and I got my secretary to ring this Deputy in order that they should be secured for the Monday, and they were secured in that very short period.
He would probably have secured them that evening, if he had to recruit them from only one source.
Through the medium of the other members of the Local Security Force, he merely secured a number of names which he had to submit to the engineer officer in charge of the works. If the engineer officer in charge of the works, after interviewing these men, was not satisfied that they were competent to do the work he required to be done, they were not selected.
The Minister was not there to see that proceeding?
I was not.
The information we have is that the military officer had a list to which he was bund and the Minister does not know whether he was or not because he was not there.
Of course, I was not there. I know what my instructions were, though.
Yes, I know.
Before this matter finishes, I should like to put this to the Minister, that he is using our great efforts in West Cork on behalf of unity to wipe our eyes as a political Party.
Something which you never did.
asked the Minister for Defence whether he will state the number of men, other than craftsmen employed by the Department of Defence in Haulbowline, Cobh; the number of such men recruited through the local employment exchange; the number of men other than craftsmen employed otherwise than through the local employment exchange; the number of such men who, before being so employed, were normally resident in the area of the local employment exchange in Cobh.
The number of men other than craftsmen employed at Haulbowline, Cobh, is 65. None of these was employed through the local employment exchange, all being recruited otherwise. Of the total number employed 64 were, before being employed, normally resident in the area of the local employment exchange.
Is the Minister aware that men were brought from West Cork for this job, probably between Friday and Monday, and received Cobh addresses in order to be sent to work at Haulbowline?
I am not aware of that.
I am aware of it. Will the Minister make inquiries into it?
I am aware that 58 were from Cobh, three from Inniskenny, three from Cobh Junction, and one from Cork City.
That does not include the number from West Cork, from Castletownbere. Will the Minister make inquiries into that matter?
What addresses did they give?
Addresses in Cobh— West End, Cobh, and East End, Cobh.
asked the Minister for Defence whether it was with his approval that a petty officer issued to persons applying for work at Haulbowline documents requiring the officer in charge of the work to employ such persons; whether he is aware that men of good character, including former members of the Defence Forces who have been refused such documents by the said petty officer have been refused employment in Haulbowline.
The reply to both parts of the question is in the negative.
I will have an opportunity of raising this matter on the Army Estimate. I can give facts and figures which I have already given to the Minister and which may convince the House, if they did not convince the Minister——
If the Deputy has no question to raise, he must resume his seat.