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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 28 Nov 1940

Vol. 81 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Transport Tribunal Reports.

Yesterday I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce:

"Whether in view of the fact that the Transport Tribunal was established by authority of an order made by Dáil Eireann on December 7th, 1938, he will state by what authority he has declined to submit to Dáil Eireann the reports of the tribunal presented to him in August, 1939."

The Minister's reply was:

"The warrant appointing the Transport Tribunal was issued by my Department on the 22nd December, 1938, in pursuance of a resolution passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas on the 7th of that month. The warrant of appointment of the tribunal required them to inquire into the matters mentioned in the resolution and to report thereon to me. I am not aware that I am under any obligation to publish the tribunal's reports.

"It is probable, however, that the reports will be published when the consideration referred to in answers to previous Parliamentary questions has been completed."

I consider that reply was unsatisfactory under two heads. In the first place it showed that the policy of procrastination which had been adopted in regard to the many questions tabled on the same matter on previous dates by myself and other Deputies was to be continued.But my amazement and disappointment in that regard were completely overshadowed by the expression of the Minister's doubt as to whether he was bound to present the reports of that tribunal to the House. I think, and I hope the House will record its opinion, that any such tribunal, commission or committee of inquiry set up under the express authority of the House has an unquestionable right to have its report presented to the House which was responsible for setting it up.

I suggest further that neither the Minister nor the Government, who are only the servants of this Parliament, having received that report, have got any right to withhold it from the Parliament at their pleasure. I consider that the first function involved in the setting up of that inquiry was to bring enlightenment to the public mind upon a matter of public importance, and I believe that it is entirely out of order for the Government to sit upon this report for so long a period as they have, pending considerations of all sorts and kinds. I believe they should at least have brought the report back here to the House and so made it available to the people of the country who are vitally concerned upon a very important national question. It does not necessarily follow that the Government would have to implement the decisions or recommendations of the tribunal immediately they produced the report. We have had plenty of evidence of other tribunals whose reports have been submitted and in connection with which no action was taken. This, however, seems to be a new departure, and I believe that it is one to which the House should not lightly agree. I believe further that we should disabuse the Minister's mind of the opinions he seems to hold as to where his duty lies in this respect.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, who preceded the present Minister, in introducing the order of the 7th December, 1938—Column 1401, Volume 73 of the Official Debates— said:—

"It would, probably, serve and fulfil my duty if I said enough to indicate that the matters set out in the motion are matters of urgent public importance. Some time ago I received from the Great Southern Railways Company, and from the Great Northern Railway Company, representations to the effect that they have reached positions of acute financial stringency, in which they claimed that Government action for their assistance was urgently necessary, if they were to carry on."

Further on, the Minister said:

"It is clear to everybody, I think, that the company could not hope to raise, in the ordinary way, any new capital at the present time without Government assistance or Government guarantee and, in these circumstances, the Government are satisfied that a major decision on transport policy must now be taken."

There is just one other quotation from the Minister's speech, in the following column, which I should like to give. It is as follows:—

"I should say that I hope the inquiry to be undertaken will be completed as soon as possible. Certainly, it is my expectation that we should have the report of the tribunal before us when we meet after the Christmas Recess."

Now, that was the 7th December, 1938, and the date on which we were to resume, after the Christmas Recess, was the 8th February, 1939, and, speaking on that debate, later on the same afternoon, I said that I hoped that the Minister would not unduly rush the matter and that, having regard to the overwhelming importance of the subject under discussion, it would be manifestly unfair to attempt or to hope to get a reasoned decision from the tribunal by the following 8th February.Everybody was aware of the urgency of the problem, but all were equally aware that it should not be rushed unduly. Now, February, 1939, passed and the two reports were eventually submitted in the month of August, 1939—I think the dates were the 4th and 11th August—and since that month of August, 1939, the month of February, 1940, has also passed, and we are now in the month of November, 1940, and there is still no sign whatever from the Minister that he is going to bring into the House and make public that report.

If we contrast the present Minister's attitude in this connection with that of his predecessor, who set up the tribunal, they seem to be at variance one with the other. The former Minister, Mr. Lemass, thought it a matter of extreme urgency, but the present Minister does not seem to be imbued with that spirit at all. Now, what has happened since, that has made it unnecessary to pursue this matter that was visualised as being so urgent at that time by the Minister's predecessor? Has the position of the railway company improved to such an extent, or has it got out of the rut into which it was admitted it had sunk at that particular time?

Does this arise, Sir?

Does the Minister desire to raise a point of order?

Is the Minister carrying on a private conversation?

This is a point of order.

No, it is not.

I shall hear the Minister first. I cannot say if it is a point of order unless the Minister is heard.

I understood, Sir, that this debate was taking place upon the ground that my reply to the following question was unsatisfactory:

"Mr Keyes asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether, in view of the fact that the Transport Tribunal was established by authority of an order made by Dáil Eireann on December 7th, 1938, he will state by what authority he has declined to submit to Dáil Eireann the reports of the tribunal presented to him in August, 1939."

I understood that it was on the ground that my reply to that question was unsatisfactory that this debate is now taking place, but Deputy Keyes is now putting to me another series of questions which has no relation to that.

The purpose of a question on the adjournment is to elucidate and elaborate the basic question put to the Minister and the Minister's reply to that question. It amounts to elaborated question and reply upon the facts in question. Obviously, if a tribunal has been set up to inquire into transport, the state of the transport problem does not arise. The question that arises is the refusal—the alleged refusal—of the Minister to furnish the report of the tribunal to the House.

I thought, Sir, that I was entitled to make the point of my dissatisfaction with the Minister's reply.

It is with the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply that I am dealing, and I am submitting that my dissatisfaction was based upon certain grounds, but mainly the delay in bringing forward the report. I was rather surprised that one ground of complaint should transcend the other, but the dissatisfaction is obviously because of the delay, and I am not satisfied that the Minister has given valid or abiding reasons for that delay. I am asking him at this particular juncture—and if it is very unpleasant for the Minister, I shall leave it unasked—to tell us now if anything has happened in connection with the railway finances or the affairs of the railway company, since his predecessor saw fit to make this a matter of urgency, or has the industry so progressively extended since then that the present Minister can afford to leave the matter in abeyance. I want to point out that that has not happened.

To express dissatisfaction with the Minister's failure to submit the reports to Dáil Eireann is in order, and by what authority the Minister has so far declined to submit the reports. The present state of transport does not arise, nor do the financial or other conditions of the railways. That is the question which the tribunal was established to report on.

Have you the Minister's reply before you, Sir?

I have a copy of both the question and the Minister's reply.

I would point out that there are two parts in the reply, and the particular one we are dealing with at the moment is where the Minister says:—

"It is probable, however, that the reports will be published when the consideration referred to in answers to previous Parliamentary questions has been completed."

I am suggesting, Sir, that there is evidence there of continued procrastination and that this has been the method of side-tracking this question on at least five or six occasions. If you rule that I am not entitled to speak on it, I must bow to your ruling, Sir, but I felt that this was really a very important matter and I wanted to know from the Minister how many times we must put this on the Order Paper?

The Deputy is within his rights in asking that question, but may not discuss the position of the railways. It is not possible to discuss the report which has not been published.

Very well, Sir, but I can say that I have quite sufficient evidence to show that the position, at any rate, has not improved to an extent that would warrant the Minister in continuing to ignore the circumstances or conditions which existed at the time that the Minister's predecessor called the tribunal into being.

The Deputy is now discussing the condition of the railways.

Is it not a fact that the present position of the railways is the result of the Minister's refusal to publish the reports of the tribunal?

The position of the railways obviously cannot be discussed on the question before the House.

If I cannot develop on that line I cannot proceed. I have made my case. I want to recall my original point, on which I hope the Minister will give some satisfaction as to what induced him not to supply to the House the reports of a commission that it was responsible for bringing into being. What put it into his mind that there is not a right to have the reports brought back here?

There is a difference between a right and an obligation.

I hold that the Government is the servant of the Parliament and that Parliament is the servant of the nation. The Minister has no right to come between the House and the report of a tribunal that sat for many months.

I desire to support the protest of Deputy Keyes concerning the refusal of the Minister to honour an undertaking which was given by implication, if not in very clear language, by his predecessor in office, apart altogether from the undertaking given the House on December 7th, 1938, now nearly two years ago, when the motion was moved for the establishment of the Transport Tribunal. I know of no precedent in any other case of this kind since this House was established, where a responsible Minister refused to publish or to authorise the publication of reports of a commission. If the Minister's predecessor did not intend to publish the reports or recommendations of a public tribunal surely he would have made that clear to the House when asking permission to establish the Transport Tribunal. No doubt the Minister has read the case made by his predecessor for the establishment of the tribunal and if so, I think he will not deny that it was not intended to hold up the publication of such important reports. The proceedings of a tribunal, in view of the powers given it at the time, and to various commissions set up by this Government and also by the previous Government, have always been published. It is a different matter altogether in the case of the establishment of Departmental Committees whose reports have, in many cases, for very good reasons not been made public.

The report of this tribunal has a direct bearing on the livelihood of 25,000 railway transport workers, 15,000 shareholders, as well as the community that has to depend on the principal transport concern in this State, which is on the border of financial collapse. I was summoned to and present at a very largely attended meeting of railway trade unions a week ago where this matter was the subject of lengthy consideration. The principal speaker at that meeting said he had been informed that the Minister for Industry and Commerce had intimated to the principal transport concern in this State, that it was not at present intended to introduce any legislation arising out of the reports of the Transport Tribunal. I should like to know from the Minister whether any such assurance was given, and if it was given, why such an assurance was given to the principal transport concern without placing the reports of the tribunal in the possession of Deputies responsible for its establishment.

Am I responsible for meetings at which Deputy Davin was present? I should hope not.

No. I want to be fair to the Minister in that respect. It is, however, well known that the Minister has been in communication with the heads of the principal transport concern, and I am certain that he had, or should have, in his possession a copy of the 34-page speech which was made by the chief accountant of the railway company at a recent meeting of the Irish Railways Board. If he accepts half of what was put before the railways board by the chief accountant of the principal transport concern, he should be very alarmed at his responsibility for the state of affairs that exists in that concern.

The Deputy may not debate the condition of transport.

Any Deputy cannot express a definite opinion as to what should be done by the Minister and by a Government which has pledged itself to put the principal concern on a firm financial foundation until we get the reports. I am fairly well acquainted with the members of the Transport Tribunal. They were men who knew their job, although, with one exception, they were not what might be regarded as railway or transport experts.

I met one of the principal members of the tribunal several months ago in this building, and also in another place, and he questioned me as to whether I thought the reports were ever likely to be published. He offered to make a bet that they would not be published. I wonder if that bet was made with the knowledge that the Minister did not intend to publish the reports of the tribunal which contained the signature of the person who offered to make me a sporting bet.

The Minister will have plenty of time to-night to say anything he wishes about what has been done during the 14 months since the tribunal reported. It is 14 months since the reports were handed to the Department. I am not quite sure if the present Minister for Industry and Commerce was Minister of that Department when the reports were handed in but, at any rate, he will not shelve responsibility or refuse to honour the obligation placed upon his shoulders by his predecessor.I presume there is continuity of policy in regard to transport if there has been any policy whatsoever decided upon on that question. When the previous Minister for Industry and Commerce spoke in favour of establishing the tribunal he indicated that there was a necessity for the passage of amending legislation, but stated that the Government would like to be armed with authority from the Transport Tribunal before taking a definite decision as to the nature of the legislation.If the Minister for Industry and Commerce still believes in the right of the Parliament to help the Government to take a decision on matters of policy and if he believes as I do that it should have the right to express its views on the necessity for legislation to put the transport industry into a better position, then it is his duty to authorise the publication and circulation of the reports of the tribunal without any further unnecessary delay.

In the interests of this institution, I hope the Minister will hand over copies of the reports to Deputies without further delay. I am not suggesting that he is holding up the reports merely to disoblige any Deputy who may be interested, because every Deputy is interested in the contents of the reports. Some Deputies presume to be able to tell you what is contained in them. I certainly do not know; I cannot say that I have any reliable information as to the contents. I know there are two reports. It has been suggested that the recommendations are of such a drastic nature that they might mean the abolition of the board now responsible for the management of our principal transport concern.

Obviously the report cannot be discussed. The Deputy complains that he has not got it.

I want to get it without any further unnecessary delay and I hope the Minister for Industry and Commerce will oblige me and other Deputies interested in this matter and honour the pledges given by his predecessor.

A lot of words have been wasted over a very simple question and wasted, I think, somewhat indiscreetly. It would be far better for Deputies not to repeat in the House the subject of private conversations they may have outside, and if they are of a wagering disposition they ought to make their bets in a place where the Minister for Finance will be in a position to collect the tax in due course.

I was forced into that line of argument by the limiting of the discussion.

The question is a simple one. I was asked whether, in view of the fact that the Transport Tribunal was established by authority of an order made by Dáil Eireann on December 7th, 1938. I would state by what authority I have declined to submit to Dáil Eireann the reports of the tribunal presented to him in August, 1939. The first thing I would like to point out is that I doubt whether that question was really conceived by Deputy Keyes in the form in which he expressed it, as it certainly conveys an impression which is very misleading. It contains an innuendo which cannot be substantiated by anything that I have said in the House in regard to this report. The Deputy asked me by what authority I have declined to publish the report. I have never declined to publish the report. I said that the report will be published in due course.

On Tibb's Eve?

When full consideration has been given to it. However, I passed over the Deputy's innuendo. I was not going to bandy words in a Parliamentary reply. I addressed myself— as I always do—strictly to the subject matter of the question. The Deputy asked me by what authority I declined to publish this report. I have no authority for declining. Neither have I any obligation to publish. If the Deputy will consult the statute under which this commission was set up and can show me any provision in it which compels me to publish a report of a tribunal which is set up to report, not to Dáil Eireann but to the Minister for Industry and Commerce——

That is the important point.

——there might be some justification for this extraordinary procedure to which he has had resort. We all know that a question is raised on the adjournment simply for the purpose of taking it out of the Minister, and I suggest that Deputies ought to find some surer justification for taking action of that sort than they have adduced in this case, and they ought to come into the Dáil fortified for the job. Instead of that, we have had all this ráiméis.

There has been 15 months procrastination and still the Minister is not refusing.

We have all heard about what the gentleman said at that meeting at which Deputy Davin was present, but surely that does not justify the raising of this question on the adjournment.

That is a matter for the Chair. Address that to the Chair.

If the Deputy is dissatisfied with an answer, the Chair is bound to give an opportunity to him to make his case but, having expressed his dissatisfaction with my reply, the Deputy should not have introduced all this ráiméis.

The Chair does not agree that it is obligatory.

I suggest that I have made a case, but not one to convince the Minister.

It is quite obvious that the Deputy was confused. He thought that, because this tribunal was set up by a resolution of the Dáil, it was on all fours with a Committee of the House which is ipso facto bound to report to the Dáil, as also is a commission set up to report to the House. But this commission was set up to report to the Minister.

Is the Minister repudiating his own predecessor?

In due course, when the Minister has studied——

The 8th February, 1939!

——the report of the commission, he may, and probably will——

It has been suggested there is ráiméis on this side. It is all over there.

—— publish the report and circulate it to the House and, of course, to the general public. Before he takes that decision he must have ample opportunity to study it and to make up his mind as to whether, on the whole, it is in the public interest that the report be published. If he decides that it is not in the public interest, Deputies have a remedy: they can put down a motion demanding that the report be published and state the grounds for that. So far as this question is concerned, however, I repeat that there is no obligation on the Minister to present this report to the House and the Deputy has completely failed——

Why do you refuse to publish it?

—— to make a case for raising this question on the adjournment.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. to Wednesday, 11th December, 1940, at 3 p.m.

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