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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 1941

Vol. 81 No. 13

Private Deputies' Business. - Abortion in Cows—Motion.

I move:—

In view of the depletion of herds and the heavy losses being sustained by farmers in certain districts due to contagious abortion and sterility in cows, the Dáil is of opinion that Section 1 of the Live Stock Breeding Act, 1925, should be suspended in so far as it applies to shorthorn bulls in such districts while the disease is prevalent.

At the time this Bill was passed in this House the Farmers' Party agreed to it, but at that time our export trade in butter alone was worth £7,000,000 from possibly a quarter of a million cows, and it was expected that as a result of that Bill our exports would increase by probably £2,000,000, plus home consumption. When that Bill was passed, we expected that the Government would take up the matter of these two diseases, as a result of which the farmers of the country have been practically robbed, but the Government has done practically nothing. I do not want to press for many more bulls like those we have been getting, because I do not think they are desirable in the country. Sometimes we have bulls presented which are not by any means up to standard. It was my privilege for some years to hold an annual sale, but it collapsed completely because the supply which was produced was not up to standard. I think if those diseases are to be stamped out, if it cannot be done by veterinary means, you will have to increase the number of bulls through the country, but I do not know that I would recommend a further supply of the dairy bulls which we are in the habit of seeing around the country. I do not think that would be a great advantage, but I do think that we should get back to more of the Roscommon type. The only way to introduce them would be by giving prizes at agricultural shows to farmers who can breed these bulls at much less expense than they would incur if they were breeding pure-bred shorthorns or any other bulls of that kind. If that procedure were encouraged it would achieve far better results.

There is not very much that can be said on this motion, but I do think the Government should try to remedy the depletion of herds through this disease, which has caused such heavy losses amongst the farmers over many years. I suggest we should try to get many more bulls of the shorthorn type into the country. The farmers should be encouraged to keep them by giving prizes in the way I have suggested.

I wish to second this motion. It is a very important one. There are certain districts where contagious abortion and sterility prevail. Unfortunately, in parts of County Cavan and the neighbouring counties, the disease has been very prevalent for years. Men who have had a great deal of experience, who have kept bulls and dairy herds, are all agreed that it is partly due to a shortage of bulls of the half-bred type of shorthorn. It is a well-known fact that pedigree bulls that are very well fed when young are not able to serve the same number of cows as the half-bred bull. When this disease becomes prevalent in a district and the cows continue to come every few weeks, the bulls are over-worked, yet the farmers have no alternative but to continue bringing to them the cows that are affected and in that way they spread the disease to their neighbours' cattle.

It would be much better if there were other bulls provided, even though they were not quite so good as bulls of the shorthorn type. This would give the farmers a little latitude, because, where the disease is prevalent, they could use the other bulls—send the cows giving the trouble to those bulls at their own discretion. This method has been found very successful in the past and I think the Minister should carefully consider it. I do not want to criticise the policy of the Department in selecting the best animals. I quite agree it is a great idea to select the best bulls.

This disease does not apply to the whole country. It is only in certain districts that animals are affected with this trouble. Unfortunately, numbers of farmers have been left without cows or calves. There may be very strong arguments against this motion, but it is really a matter of trusting the farmers to use their own judgment and discretion in obtaining the best calves they can get. If something is not done there are certain districts where there will be no cows or calves. Once a cow runs for a year or two and becomes dry, all it is then fit for is Roscrea or some other such place, and it will not fetch more than a couple of pounds. That is what happens in the districts where the disease is prevalent.

This motion merely asks that in affected districts there should be a temporary relaxation of the present scheme. As regards the method by which this could be done, it is quite simple. The Department have in every country at least one competent representative in the person of the agricultural instructor, who is in many cases at the same time the secretary of the county committee. Where this disease is giving trouble the farmers could get in touch with the agricultural instructor. He could visit the district, meet the farmers there, have a consultation with them and ascertain whether the disease is so prevalent as to justify a relaxation. He is, I think, a man who can be trusted to advise the Department correctly. He knows the local conditions and he could easily ascertain whether the disease had reached a serious stage. I strongly recommend the Minister to give careful thought to this matter.

It may be argued that if there were any relaxation the quality of our cattle would deteriorate. I do not agree. Even if they did deteriorate a little, it would be better to have some cows and calves than to have dry cows and no calves. I do not agree, however, that there would be deterioration. You should trust the farmers in these matters. As Deputy Cole pointed out, the cattle are far from being improved under present conditions. In parts of County Cavan and neighbouring counties, where they were in the habit of breeding from the Roscommon shorthorns, anyone with practical knowledge who visits the fairs can see that they are entirely the other way. If you ask any dealing man he will give you the answer that he cannot find the suitable type of cattle now that he used to get 15 or 20 years ago. I do not say that the Department's scheme is responsible for that, but whatever is responsible it is a well-known fact that they have deteriorated. Possibly it is that they have become mixed up with too many breeds. The fact is, at any rate, that they cannot get the sort of shorthorn that they used to get; the animals now are not nearly so useful or suitable for breeding purposes.

If a little latitude were given to farmers in the selection of bulls no harm would be done; indeed, there would be a great deal of good, and the quality of the cattle would not deteriorate. All the motion asks is that you relax Section 1 of the Livestock Breeding Act for a limited period in certain districts. Then as soon as the disease even partly disappears, the scheme could be put into working order again. I know this is not an ideal solution; indeed it is very far from it. The ideal solution would be to find a cure for the disease, but, unfortunately, no cure has been found so far, and nobody knows better than the members of the Department's veterinary staff that they have not found the means of stamping out the disease. This is the second best thing. The Department admits that they cannot stamp out the disease, that it is a very difficult thing to do so. The second best thing is to relax the restrictions and give the people a chance and the Department's bulls a chance, and have others to which these troublesome cows can be sent. That is the object we have in view. I believe the suggestion is a good one, and the Department can learn many things from time to time from practical farmers who know the difficulties they are up against.

It would do them no harm to listen to deputations now and again, or to listen to the representatives of the people in this House and elsewhere. Deputy Cole is a man who has much experience of cattle. He knows what he is talking about and his opinions should not be lightly turned down. Indeed, for that matter, the representations of any practical farmer should be listened to even by the Department. We would be only too glad if the Department could find a cure for this disease and stamp it out altogether, but unfortunately, that does not seem to be practicable at the present time. We have to carry on as best we can and, in the meantime, try to save our herds of milch cows, the numbers of which have already been seriously diminished. I have heard of very poor men who had four or five cows and they had to sell as much as three out of the five for a few pounds, whereas they could have retained these cows if there were any remedy for this disease. As I stated before, the Minister has in every county a representative of the Department. He could get in touch with the farmers, investigate the grounds for these complaints and report to the Department whether it would be advisable to relax the restrictions in such cases. I strongly recommend the Minister to inquire into the matter.

I have heard the case made by Deputies McGovern and Cole on this motion. The motion has been on the Order Paper for some time, but obviously it is a motion that deals only with one portion of the country that seems to be affected, at least in their opinion, rather more severely than other portions of the country. There is something rather frightening in the implications of the motion because the two Deputies who have spoken seem to suggest that the dairy shorthorn bull, the bull that has come along from the South of Ireland in the last few years particularly, is, to a certain extent, the cause of the trouble, and that the other type of bull, the Roscommon shorthorn bull, is quite up to the mark. As the Minister is aware, the constituency which I represent is the home of the dairy shorthorn bull in Ireland. The Minister has had long associations with the Irish Dairy Shorthorn Breeders' Society. I think this was the first year we missed him from our annual Congress. If there is contagious abortion and sterility in this country, nobody can tell me that it is peculiar to bulls coming from our area.

Nobody has said that.

It was suggested that a different type of shorthorn bull might be allowed into Cavan, and that the dairy shorthorn bull from the South was not wanted there. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us to-night whether any progress has been made by the officers of the Department in the research work they are doing to find a remedy for this disease. It is, as Deputy McGovern said, a tragic feature of life in this country that many farmers have been almost wiped out as a result of their herds being affected by this terrible disease. For quite a number of years the Minister has been warning people, in the Press and over the radio, against specifics that were being sold as a certain cure for contagious abortion. He warned them that they ought not to buy them, but the warning did not seem to have much effect. There were certain specifies that were supposed to be perfect cures sold throughout the country, and, mind you, at a very high price. Farmers bought these specifics at a cost in some cases of £35 or £40, despite the fact that the Minister warned them. They found that the stuff they bought was useless and even a danger to the cattle. That was nothing else but pure robbery. I was consulted in my professional capacity by a number of these farmers. They knew their money was gone, but they could do nothing about it. I suppose the Minister was not to blame; he had warned them; but it was the greatest pity in the world that he did not come down on the people who were selling these cures and stop the sale of them altogether.

There is just one matter I should like to put to Deputies Cole and McGovern in reference to this Act. The two of them made the case that the Act could be relaxed in one area which seems to be very badly off. I do not agree that you can relax the Act for any area and leave it in operation in other areas. You may be able to amend the Act, but you certainly cannot successfully relax it in any area and leave it in operation in other areas. If you relax the Act for one area, and if that means that farmers in other areas are going to be prosecuted for having unlicensed bulls, the Minister will be harried by every Deputy and Senator in the country.

We are not asking him to relax it for Cork.

I know you are not, but do these two Deputies not think that if it is going to be relaxed in their area, in other words, that people in that area will be allowed to get away with something that other people are prevented from doing, that every Deputy in the House will not be after the Minister to relax it in his area too? My opinion is that if you relax the Livestock Breeding Act in one area for one second, you will never enforce it again. Whatever be the merits or the demerits of the Cavan case, it would be quite impossible to relax the provisions of the Act in that area while they are in full operation in other areas. Ever since the Act was passed there has been a campaign against it, even for political purposes. It was suggested that it was passed for penalising farmers and there was a campaign against it from other points of view also. I do not believe that anyone could suggest that the Act did the slightest bit of harm to any part of the country. Indeed I think everybody must admit that it has done a great deal of good. I repeat that if you relax it for one moment in any area in the country you will never be able to enforce it again. I have too high an estimate of the value of the Livestock Breeding Act of 1925 to wish to have any of its provisions relaxed.

I am afraid that Deputy McGovern "pinched" the case from me in saying that they were not asking it to be relaxed for County Cork. I do not say that the Cork people want any of its provisions relaxed, but if there were any relaxations granted to County Cavan, what would Deputy John Flynn of Kerry, for instance, say? You would have the unfortunate inspector of the Department in each county almost murdered, unless he were able to promise people in these counties that he would get the Act relaxed. You would have complaints constantly coming to the Minister, the Department, and the Secretary of the County Committee in places like Kerry and even West Cork. If the Act were relaxed in certain other counties, I should not like to be the T.D. representing an area where they had a longstanding grievance in respect of the Act, as they have in several counties at the moment. Whatever consolation it might give some Deputies to have the Act relaxed in their areas, I would strongly urge the Minister not to relax the Act.

I want again to impress on the Minister that the Department should investigate quickly the case of all these alleged "cure-alls" that are being sold all over the country as specifics for the cure of contagious abortion, and should take some stops regarding them, if his Department is satisfied that they are not all that they purport to be. There is no earthly use in warning farmers over the radio and in the Press, for there always will be some silly farmers who will buy them. If his Department is satisfied that any firm in this country is still selling these articles and that they are not what they purport to be, he should jump on them as hard as he possibly can and stop them from selling them. I say I regret, as a pure non-expert as a farmer—either in practice or in theory—that I cannot agree with two very great experts in this matter like Deputies Cole and McGovern. I again reiterate that I think highly of the Livestock Breeding Act of 1925, and think highly of the type of cattle that the Minister wants. I ask the Minister, when he is replying to find out from Deputy McGovern what kind of bull he should have.

A Roscommon one.

He does not want a County Cork shorthorn bull, anyway.

We do not want a County Cork one.

The present Minister for Agriculture has been talking for quite a long time about what his Department has been doing about the type of cattle in the North Cork area, about the statistical test for cattle in that area, and I think that that is an unanswerable argument in favour of the Livestock Breeding Act of 1925 in an area where it was always carried out. That statistical test was made in 25 mixed farms for the protection of cattle and dual-purpose cows and is an unanswerable argument in favour of that Livestock Breeding Act. I say that it should not be relaxed for one second nor in any area of this country and, if it is going to be relaxed, that it should be dropped altogether.

As a farmer I have deep sympathy with the views expressed by the proposer and seconder of this motion. Nevertheless, as the motion is worded, I feel I could not possibly support it. It asks that the Livestock Breeding Act of 1925 be suspended, but I think anybody who takes note of the quality of cattle generally in this country will acknowledge that the general standard is not anything too high at the moment, and that, as a matter of fact, anything that can be done should be done to improve that standard. Certainly, no step should be taken at the present time which would lower that standard.

I have noticed quite a considerable number of bulls which have been licensed, and I have found some of them inferior enough. It may be that in some portions of this country it is difficult to obtain licensed bulls, or that they are either scarce, or that the price is too high, but I know that in the counties in Leinster with which I am familiar, the position is that the price of licensed bulls is not excessive in comparison with other cattle, and in comparison with the cost of rearing such cattle, and in comparison with what it would cost to rear them if there never were any licensing scheme. Therefore, since there is in a considerable area in the country quite a large number of bulls already licensed, it is naturally a matter of having them distributed if they are scarce in other districts.

There is certainly no case for suspending this Act. As a matter of fact, I would say that it does not go far enough, and sooner or later steps will have to be taken, by registration or in some other way, to improve the quality. Some of the best results of this Act are nullified through the inferior quality of heifers kept in many districts. So far as disease is concerned, the suspending of this Act would make no great difference. I know that, in my own part of the country, there are quite a sufficient number of bulls. Unfortunately, we have that disease very prevalent amongst our cattle, and so far no effective remedy has been found. I suggest, therefore, that if there is a local grievance in regard to the supply of licensed bulls in any particular part of the country, the Minister should look into it to see if bulls can be obtained from other areas where they are plentiful.

I have only one complaint to make in regard to the licensing of bulls, and that is one which was brought to my notice on a couple of occasions. In one particular instance a farmer was found with an unlicensed bull and was summoned but, shortly afterwards, he applied to have a bull licensed and his application was refused. In that case, I think the Department had no reasonable ground for believing that the bull which he sought to have licensed was the same animal in regard to which proceedings had been taken against him. As a matter of fact, it was not. This is a matter into which the Minister should inquire. As far as this motion is concerned, I am sorry that I cannot support it, although I have sympathy with the proposer and seconder.

Rather than pay tribute to or support this motion, I rise to pay tribute to the good effect the 1925 Act had on our live stock generally. Very few people can dispute the fact that it was a very wise precaution to do away with scrub bulls generally and make the people realise that, if they were to improve the stock, it would be necessary to improve the standard and the type of bull used. Everyone will agree without hesitation that live stock generally shows an improvement here in recent years. The improvement would be more marked but for the fact that, in the autumn of each year, thousands of the prime heifers are exported—heifers that in shape, appearance and colour are suitable as choice heifers for first class milkers, and which command a very attractive price. Unfortunately, they leave none of their progeny here at all, so that the position is that we generally breed from second rate heifers, as those are the only ones left with us.

I have suggested to the Minister before that a subsidy should be paid to encourage farmers to reserve these heifers, or at least to arrange that they should leave one calf after them before exportation. Surely it could be arranged to pay a subsidy of £2 per head on selected heifers. If there were heifer shows, as there are bull shows and meetings for the licensing of bulls, it should be possible to select suitable heifers for breeding—heifers of good shape and quality and giving every indication of proper milking qualities. A premium of, say, £2, would encourage the farmer to breed from the heifer rather than to export it as a maiden heifer, and would thus leave at least one calf.

I think that in the long run it would be money very well spent in the interests of the live stock of this country. I have suggested it before, and, as far as I can see, it is the only solution. It would be a hardship, and, perhaps, a misfortune, to prevent the export in any particular year; I mean, until a heifer breeds. It might be a real hardship on a man who had only a small amount of stock to compel him to do that, but you could induce him or attract him to do so by putting a premium on prize heifers to breed here for at least one year before export.

It seems to me to be rather silly for Deputies to suggest that where abortion or sterility in cows is present the suspension of the 1925 Act is going to improve matters. For the life of me, speaking as a practical farmer, I cannot see how that would improve the position at all. I know that some of the county committees of agriculture recently have invited some eminent professors from town here to give lectures on this matter: notably Professor Kearney, who is an authority on this particular disease. I, personally, have listened to a most interesting lecture from Professor Kearney on that particular subject, and I suggest that if you want to attack this problem properly in County Cavan you should get Professor Kearney down there to give a lecture on the matter. That would be a better way of going about the business than letting every sort of scrub bull operate in the county. As I said, that is not a solution at all.

I should like to refer again to that matter which I have already mentioned, the necessity for preserving at all costs and keeping here, at least until they breed, those choice heifers that are exported from this country year after year. Very keen prices are offered for them, so keen that our own buyers are unable to compete. I want to emphasise the necessity of preserving that basic stock. I would go even further and say that in my opinion it is a pity that we use so many other breeds. After all, the shorthorns are the basic stock of this country, and we are inclined, I think, to grant too many premiums for the Aberdeen Angus and the Hereford. After all, we must not lose sight of the fact that the Argentine and other countries can provide meat for the British market, but this is the only country in the world that provides the milker for the English people.

Beyond what they produce themselves, they can only buy the cow here, and they are not able in England to rear an animal with the bone and quality that our cows have. The soil to produce bone and muscle is not there; they have not got it, and we are fortunate enough to have it in this country. There is no doubt about it, we are able to produce the very best type of cow that will eventually produce the best milk. I say to the Minister that we should concentrate particularly on producing the best type of milker for that market in which we have a monopoly, and I hold that we are disimproving our livestock by the introduction of too many Aberdeen Anguses, Herefords, and other crosses. I take this opportunity of suggesting to the Minister that the number of Hereford and Aberdeen Angus premiums granted by his Department should be reduced as much as possible. I quite appreciate the advantages of the Aberdeen Angus bulls in mountainous or poor districts where fodder is scarce and it is difficult to carry over the winter, because, as we are told—whether it can be proved or not —they are a hardier breed and easier to get into condition, and they are slower to rear, but, possibly, if an experiment were carried out, it might be found that in the long run the shorthorn would prove just as profitable. Taking the interests of the country as a whole, however, from the livestock point of view, we should concentrate on the shorthorn, the basic stock of the country, particularly as we have a monopoly in supplying the stock that will eventually produce the best milker for the British market. The Argentine and other countries can supply meat to that market and we have to compete with these countries, but we have a monopoly in that market of providing the basic stock for the milkers that will eventually produce the milk they require.

I am glad that Deputy Linehan referred to these patent cures, or supposed cures, that are being pushed on the people all over the country. I do not think the Department can do very much about it beyond what they are doing at present, and that is warning the farmer that they are not cures. I do not think you can prosecute these people, if the farmers are foolish enough to persist in buying these alleged cures. Well, it is their own kettle of fish if they are being robbed for something that has no value at all. It is necessary, however, whenever the Department is publishing such a warning, to put it in as prominent a position as possible in the newspapers, so that the farmers will see it and so that those foolish people will not buy these patent things, which are supposed to be cures, and which we know very well are not cures.

The agents of the companies that sell these supposed cures are very active and persistent, and they have sold them in many districts and to people who ought to know better. As a matter of fact, I know of one particular case where a supposed cure of this type was sold to one of the biggest colleges in this country. It was sold to the management of the college, where they have a big farm attached, and they felt very sore about it and thought that they were badly treated because the Department had not warned them. We all know that it is not the policy of the Department to encourage that kind of thing at all, but in some cases that warning is overlooked and some farmers are not aware that the Department do not approve of these things. Accordingly, when you are warning the farmers about these supposed cures, you should make the warning large enough and its insertion in the papers prominent enough to enable the farmers to see the warning at all events.

I was hopeful that the movers of this motion would give more cogent arguments and reasons for it. We have heard criticism of the Livestock Breeding Act from time to time, and it is generally criticised on the basis, first of all, that the bull carries the disease of contagious abortion; secondly, that on account of what is regarded by some people as the strict licensing system we have not enough bulls in the country; and, thirdly, I think there was an added reason given here to-night, that the shorthorn bull in particular was to blame in this particular respect. Now, it has been proved, I think, fairly satisfactorily—in fact, quite satisfactorily—that bull does not usually carry the disease of contagious abortion and that the disease is carried by cows from one to another.

I think the bull can carry the disease, but he is not the real mischief maker.

That is right. He can carry it, but the cows are the real carriers. It is true, of course, that if every farmer could afford to keep a bull the disease could not travel so much because, in that case, you would not have the cows being driven so much from one farm to another, and there would not be the same danger of the spread of the disease as there is where you have one bull serving ten or 15 farms.

It is really a fact that when a cow is brought to a farm where there is infection, or comes from a farm where there is infection, the disease is spread more than where a bull is used by a number of herds. As to the argument that there are not enough bulls, I think there are. For the last three or four years there were more bulls licensed than were actually required. A number of bulls that were shown at the Dublin Show one year were killed by a butcher when they were not disposed of for breeding purposes. The same applies to other parts of the country. If bulls are passed for licensing and if those who show them find it hard to sell, they may think it better to fatten the animals and sell them for beef rather than keep them for breeding. It is fairly obvious that there are, in fact, more bulls licensed than there is demand for. I do not think there is anything in the contention that Shorthorn bulls are more likely to spread the disease, or more useless for combating it, than other types of bulls. I do not know if Deputy Cole or Deputy McGovern have got any information to rely on in making such a statement.

It is not suggested that Shorthorn bulls are more responsible for spreading the disease. I would not agree to relax the regulations with regard to other bulls. The Shorthorn is the best type of animal, and if there were more Shorthorns it would be an advantage.

The Deputy would prefer to see more Shorthorn bulls?

I have tried to find out whether Cavan is particularly affected by contagious abortion. I do not think it is. There is no evidence to be found in the Department, from the live-stock inspectors or from the officers of the committee of agriculture to show that Cavan is particularly affected. Deputy Linehan spoke of the position in North Cork. We had reports in the Department that the disease was particularly prevalent in North Cork. We carried out a special investigation and found that it was very prevalent there. We are prepared to carry out the same investigation in Cavan if Deputies would like to have that done. We could tell them then the districts affected. When we are trying to deal with a problem like this, the first thing necessary is to get good reliable information, to find out how many cows are affected and in what way. There are various forms of the disease, and it would be well to know the position before doing anything.

The results were very good in Cork.

They were. There is a good supply of bulls in Cavan. My information is that the number of bulls shown in Cavan was high, and that some people had considerable difficulty in disposing of them. They got licences in order to dispose of the bulls, and, in fact, they were sold very cheap. There was no difficulty in the way of any farmer who was prepared to buy a bull in the ordinary way getting one in County Cavan. The Department distributes a leaflet, No. 13, which deals with the disease of contagious abortion. There has been a very small demand for that leaflet in Cavan. That is not due to the fact that County Cavan farmers are backward in any way, as they use other leaflets extensively. As Deputies know, these leaflets indicate what other leaflets are available, and I am quite sure Cavan farmers are curious enough to look at the back to see if any further information is to be got about contagious abortion. That being so they could apply for copies of the leaflet. Such has not been the case there and the leaflet has not been used to any great extent. I agree with Deputy McGovern that we should listen to everybody prepared to give advice, but it is not possible always to agree with it. If Deputies are not satisfied with what I say, that there are enough bulls, that there is no great demand for leaflet No. 13, and that the disease is not any worse in Cavan than anywhere else, but contend that they believe it is worse there, I am prepared in that case to carry out some kind of investigation in County Cavan to find out whether the disease is very serious and, if so, to see what can be done about it.

I agree with what Deputy Linehan, Deputy Cogan and Deputy Hughes said that, on the whole, the effects of the Live Stock Breeding Act have been very good. In fact, the effects have been as satisfactory as the framers of the Act hoped. There is no doubt that our store cattle have been improved. I have gone to the trouble, when meeting people from Scotland and England at shows, who are large purchasers of store cattle, of asking them whether they believed there was an improvement, and in every single case those who have been purchasing here for the last 20 years, told me that there was a remarkable improvement in the quality of our store cattle. I think that is due to the Livestock Breeding Act.

Does the Minister say that the quality has improved in every county?

Generally speaking, it is only to be expected that there would be an improvement. After all, we have, through the operation of the Livestock Breeding Act, eliminated what was known as the scrub bull, and that must have had good effects. Undoubtedly, on the other hand, as Deputy Cogan pointed out, we are losing the good effects of that Act by keeping a poor class of heifers and cows for breeding. It is rather hard to deal with that. I will deal with it on a point raised by Deputy Hughes. I doubt if we have achieved very much in the milk yield of cows and heifers. On the whole, the general average milk yield is not very much improved since the passing of the 1925 Act. I do not know if that is due to any mistake in the policy pursued by the Department, or to the fact that some farmers are inclined to keep poor heifers and poor cows and, when in hard circumstances, sell off the best. I do not know what it may be due to.

Deputy Linehan asked if anything had been done to combat the disease. I do not think we have achieved very much. We have worked harder on this disease in our research department than on any other disease. Our veterinary surgeons when applied to give good advice as to how to avoid the disease, as far as possible, and how to keep it out of a herd. It is something that we are able to prevent the disease coming, but once it has entered a herd it is extremely difficult to cure it. Certainly we have not discovered a specific cure for contagious abortion. That may be too much to expect. We are a small country and we have not big funds to devote to the problem, but some big countries with great resources in the way of money, that have been working on it, have not been any more successful. I only wish we could do something to discover a cure.

With regard to the specifics that Deputy Linehan mentioned, I should say that they give us a lot of trouble. I am not sure but we must amend the law before we deal with them. We are considering that. Deputies should think about it as I will have proposals to lay before the Dáil. There are three things to be considered. Some agents actually demonstrate their cure. That is a thing that should not be permitted. Everybody will agree that we should stop that.

The second is that some of them canvass. Probably we should prevent that. The third point is that some of them advertise. It may be going a little too far to stop advertising, as we might be stopping business houses advertising remedies that are good. If we say that we must stop advertising completely, it would be impossible to draw the line. There are, therefore, three things—demonstration, canvassing and advertising. I have no hesitation in saying that we must stop demonstration; I probably would go so far as to say that we must stop canvassing; but I do not think we can go so far as stopping advertising.

If the Department are satisfied that a certain article which is being sold or advertised for sale is worse than useless, can you not amend the law to stop the sale?

Of course we will not come across it until it is fairly widely distributed. It means really, I think, that we will have to go back to a proposal which we adopted before and which was ineffective, but which we will try to make effective, namely, that every proprietary remedy must be registered and will not be registered unless it is considered useful. We found it was rather impracticable to administer that, but we may try it again. However, we are considering legislation on those lines and we will see what we can do. The next point mentioned by Deputy Hughes was that the best heifers were being exported. That has been stated for many years, but I do not know that it is true; at least I do not think the situation is as bad as some Deputies and others outside think.

If the Minister visited a country fair, particularly in the South of Ireland, he would see that it is true.

There is no doubt that good heifers are exported; still we have carried on. At any rate, I can say that the matter is under active consideration to see whether we could not do something to stop those heifers going out, and what has been suggested by Deputy Hughes is one of the schemes under consideration, namely, that we should give something like the premium given to brood mares. Of course, that would be a huge thing. The number of mares would be in the hundreds, but the heifers would run into hundreds of thousands and it would be an enormous thing to undertake.

It would show good results in a few years.

There is no doubt that it would show very good results. I agree that even if we spent hundreds of thousands of pounds it would be very well spent money. We are considering some scheme of that kind. It is a matter on which a decision must be come to rather quickly if we are to bring in the scheme this season, because the big exports commence in April.

Not until the fall of the year.

I mean if we want to catch the spring cattle. It applies more to the autumn, but a number will go out in the spring. Deputy Hughes also raised the point that there were too many Hereford and Polled Angus bulls licensed.

I did not say licensed, but given premiums.

Yes, I understand. We have certainly advised county committees of agriculture so far as possible to go in more for shorthorns, and there is a slight movement in that direction. If there is trouble in Cavan, as was stated by Deputies, it would be impossible, as Deputy Linehan pointed out, to administer this in certain areas only. We will have to have the same rule all over the country. I ask Deputies to be satisfied with a special investigation being carried out in that area if we think the thing is more prevalent there than elsewhere.

Will you send down a good veterinary inspector to examine the matter? In the neighbouring county of Leitrim it is just as bad.

I agree with the Minister from practical experience that the bull does not carry the disease. The small farmers are not in a position to purchase bulls at the Dublin Shows and the ordinary bull which you find in the country is not the type to produce the sort of cattle you want. What the farmer wants is a good wide bull that will produce stock which will grow into large animals. If nothing can be done by way of research and investigation the only thing to do is to encourage every farmer to keep his own bull. The Department, of course, will not advance money for these as they do for premium bulls, but the farmers are not in a position to purchase the bulls at the Shows.

As regards the different cures which have been referred to, I would not go so far as to say that they are all useless. Our experience is that when a cow comes into a place where there is no disease or abortion, if that cow is sufficiently disinfected there will not be any trouble or at least, only occasionally. If the remedies recommended by the advertisements are of the proper disinfectant class there is no doubt that they will prove useful. I do not want to go outside the motion, but the trouble, as far as I can see, arises from allowing Aberdeen Angus bulls down to Kerry. We have been getting what are supposed to be Aberdeen Angus calves that are not Aberdeen Angus at all.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 20th February.
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