Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 1941

Vol. 82 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Slievardagh Coalfield Development Bill, 1941—Second Stage.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. MacEntee)

I move: That the Bill be now read a second time. The Minerals Development Act, which became law on 14th November last, contains provisions for (1) the compulsory acquisition by the State of minerals in private ownership which are not being worked or which are not being worked efficiently, and, (2), for the development of deposits so acquired either directly by the State or through lessees. The House will, perhaps, recall that on the Second Reading of the Minerals Development Bill I expressed the view that, left to private enterprise, there was a possibility that such minerals as we possess may never be developed. I suggested also that perhaps the first project in regard to which it might be found necessary to utilise the powers sought by the Minerals Development Bill would be to secure the development of the Slievardagh coalfield.

This coalfield is situated in County Tipperary, some ten miles south-west of the town of Thurles. The nearest railway station to the mineral area is Laffan's Bridge, on the Great Southern railway, some three miles from the southern end of the deposit. The field itself is approximately six miles in length by two miles in width, and there is a deposit of anthracite coal. According to geologists, the Slievardagh field originally comprised eight seams of coal. With the passage of time, the five uppermost seams were largely almost completely eroded, leaving only small outlyings which are found in the vicinity of Earl's Hill and Mardyke. These outlyings have been extensively worked in the past, notably between 1831 and 1891, when the field was worked by a company known as the Mining Company of Ireland. The remaining three seams, with one of which the Bill is particularly concerned, are Pat Maher's vein, which is estimated to be eight inches thick, the Upper Glengoole, supposed to be from 18 to 20 inches, and the Lower Glengoole seam, which is 10 inches thick. Of the three, the most important is the Upper Glengoole seam, occurring at about 928 feet from the surface.

Except at isolated points where these seams outcrop, they have not been worked. The Mining Company of Ireland, as I have indicated, ceased to work the Slievardagh coalfield about 50 years ago. Subsequent to 1891 work was carried on by Messrs. Dobbs and Young and by Mr. Langley, but the operations of these parties ceased about 1916. Between 1916 and the present date small quantities of coal have been raised from time to time by miners working individually or in small groups. I should say it is doubtful whether these operations were covered by a proper title to work the property. An interest in the Mineral rights over a great part of the area is claimed by private interests, and this claim will be dealt with by the machinery set up under the Mines and Minerals Act of 1940.

In 1933 the Government, having decided to investigate the possibilities of this field, requested a reputable firm of mining engineers to survey it and report on its possibilities and, accordingly, an extensive boring and prospecting programme was undertaken in the coalfield in the years 1934 and 1937. As a result of these operations, the consultants reported that the principal reserves of coal left in the field are confined to the Upper Glengoole, or the second lowest coal seam which, in their opinion, averages 18 inches in thickness and contains reserves estimated at 5,500,000 tons. That is sufficient to yield about 125,000 tons of coal per annum for a period of 40 years. The consultants further stated that analyses of the samples taken from the different borings indicated that the Upper Glengoole coal is a seam of consistently good quality, and they expressed the opinion that commercial exploitation of the field was warranted.

I should, perhaps, mention here that it has been suggested that this report was somewhat optimistic in averaging the Upper Glengoole seam at 18 inches, and in assuming the reserves in that seam at 5,500,000 tons, and that estimates of 16 inches and 3,500,000 tons, respectively, are more likely to be correct. Unfortunately, one of the more discouraging features about our coal resources is to be found in the fact that the more closely they are investigated the less optimistic our estimates of them become. Thus, in regard to the field which we are now considering, Professor George Seymour reported that there were 12,000 acres of the Slievardagh coalfield coal-bearing, that the thickness of the seams varied from 22 inches in the outcrop to six feet in the base, and that the coal available from three particular seams alone amounted to over 90,000,000 tons. That estimate was made about 1921.

In 1932 the Slievardagh coal deposits, according to another authority, were estimated at 20,000,000 tons. It was suggested in 1933 that the reserves amounted to about 15,000,000 tons, and, in a preliminary report on Slievardagh presented to the Minister for Industry and Commerce in 1934, the consulting engineers estimated that the quantity remaining in the central and eastern areas of the field may approximate to 10,000,000 tons, a figure which would be subject to revision when the results of the borings were known. In the light of these dwindling figures, it will be appreciated that we must not be too optimistic as to the output and value of the field.

On the conclusion of the boring programme, statements of the facts which were revealed by the survey were deposited in the office of the geological survey and made available for inspection by any parties who might be interested in the development of the field. Notwithstanding this, the deposits remain unworked, except for the small-scale operations which I have already mentioned, and nobody with the requisite financial and technical resources has come forward with satisfactory proposals for the development of the property on a feasible basis. It is true that various propositions relating to the field have been submitted to my Department from time to time—since 1922, in fact. Unfortunately, however, from the viewpoint of the general public interest, all of those submitted have undesirable features of one sort or another. Some might be said to be company-promoting rather than coal-mining ventures. Others proposed that the State should take an undue proportion of the financial risks, while leaving to the promoters an equally undue share of the profits. None of them, in my view, was such as the Government would be justified in sponsoring or facilitating.

In the national interest, however, the Slievardagh deposits cannot be allowed to remain dormant any longer. Accordingly, having given due consideration to all other proposals put forward, the Government have decided to proceed with their development under the auspices of the State. That decision, I may say, was reached many months ago. In order to give effect to it however, not merely had this Bill to be drafted, but the Government had to prepare, and ask the Oireachtas to pass, the Minerals Development Act, 1940, so as to confer on the Minister for Industry and Commerce the powers necessary to take over on behalf of the State and to arrange for the exploitation of minerals in private ownership which are either not being worked efficiently or are not being worked at all, as is the case with the Slievardagh coalmines. On 6th February, in the exercise of the powers thus conferred, I made an order under Section 14 of the Minerals Development Act, in respect of the Slievardagh coalfield. The effect of this order is to vest in the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in fee simple, the minerals underlying the area defined in the order. The dispossessed owners of the property under that order are entitled, of course, to compensation for the rights of which they have been deprived. If the amount of such compensation cannot be settled by agreement, it will be settled by the Mining Board.

The State having taken over Slievardagh coalfield, we have now to consider what steps should be taken to develop it. I have already indicated that, even prior to the making of the order to which I have referred, schemes ostensibly having the development of the field as their main purpose but of a somewhat grandiose character, involving, as they would, the expenditure of several hundreds of thousands of pounds, have been proposed from time to time. We are not, as I have already said, adopting any of these, for, in my view, a somewhat more cautious approach to the problem is desirable. I have already pointed out that it has been suggested that the estimate of 5,500,000 tons for the coal reserves is somewhat on the high side. As to whether it is or not, we do not know. Only experience will teach us, and it is Just as well that the lesson, if its results are unfavourable, should not be too expensive.

Mr. D. Morrissey

May I ask if that suggestion came from experts?

Mr. MacEntee

There is some difference of opinion between experts on both sides. Geologically, the Slievardagh field is a highly disturbed one and, for this reason, and because of the existence of old unexplored and, perhaps, dangerous workings, its development may be very difficult. We have also to take into consideration that there is no large supply of the necessary skilled labour immediately available. Nor is there to hand the skilled management and supervision which is so necessary where, as in this case, danger from old workings is to be anticipated. Bearing all this in mind, it is, in my view, necessary to proceed with prudence and with care in opening up the field, while, at the same time, of course, sparing no effort to win as much coal as is possible in the shortest practicable time.

Whatever approach we may think ought to be made to this problem, one statement in regard to it is, I think, not likely to be challenged, that is, that the task is one which could not be undertaken by the ordinary machinery of the Civil Service. Accordingly, it has been decided to operate through the agency of a company registered under the Companies Acts. For the necessary authority to form and finance that company, the present Bill is introduced. The intention is that the deposits acquired by the State under the recent order shall be leased to the company on the terms at which the State succeeds in acquiring them, and that the moneys needed by the company for the development of the deposits shall be provided by repayable advances. An initial limit of £100,000 is being placed on these advances. That amount, we think, should be sufficient to prove the field and to finance the primary development scheme which the company to be formed under the Bill will be required to undertake. Should the results of these operations warrant it, a more extensive programme will be developed and pushed forward as rapidly as possible. We may take it that further capital will then be needed, and this the Oireachtas will be asked to provide in due course. An opportunity, will thus be given to the Legislature to review the results of the present venture and to decide whether it is desirable or warrantable to invest further money in the project.

I should emphasise that, although the Bill contemplates advances totalling £100,000 ultimately, this amount will be made available only as the company needs it, and not immediately on the passage of the Bill. The company will submit estimates of its requirements from time to time, and provision will be made in the Vote for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to enable the necessary advances to be made to the company.

This, of course, will give the Dáil an opportunity, if it so desires, of deciding whether or not the project, on the results then shown, should be further proceeded with. Though it is necessary for us to keep fairly strict control upon the financial aspect of this undertaking, I should like to emphasise that the company will be run as a commercial concern, divorced so far as possible from Ministerial interference. The Minister for Finance, as the principal shareholder, will appoint the directors, after consultation with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, but beyond being bound to have regard to the information available to the Government concerning the field—and this, of course, will be placed at the disposal of the company —and being enjoined to exercise such care and prudence as the speculative nature of the enterprise necessitates, the manner in which the task entrusted to the company should be tackled will be left for settlement to the directors. The directors of the company, like the directors of, say, the Electricity Supply Board, will have in their own hands the general conduct of the company's affairs, and the engagement of the technical and other staff that may be needed. While the development of the deposits of Slievardagh will be the principal task entrusted to the company, it will not be the company's solo task. The services of the company will be availed of for carrying on, in consultation with the geological service, exploratory and prospecting work at Slievardagh and other coalfields. The money required for that purpose cannot, of course, be recovered from the company.

The return to the State of this expenditure will be in the form of more accurate knowledge of the country's natural resources. In its turn it is hoped it will result in increased development of these resources, increased employment, and reduced dependence on external supplies of fuel. At the moment it is proposed to limit the amount the Exchequer proposes to advance to not more than £3,000 per annum. The Bill provides that sums not exceeding that amount may be supplied annually by grants-in-aid to the company from the Vote for the Minister for Industry and Commerce. As in the case of the main task of the company, should the circumstances warrant the Oireachtas will be asked to grant further moneys and to review the company's prospecting operations in due course.

In what I have said in justification of the Bill, I have not laid undue emphasis on the need which exists in present circumstances of developing and utilising such of our coal resources as it may be possible to develop. We all know that so long as the present war lasts there is very grave danger indeed that the country may be left without its normal supplies of imported fuel. It is not merely for this reason, but because I feel that on its merits the proposal to develop Slievardagh coalfield is, on the whole, a sound one that I am submitting it for the consideration of the Oireachtas.

The fundamental facts are—(a) the demand for anthracite cannot be met by the existing collieries; (b) the market for anthracite is a growing one. Imports of the fuel in 1926 amounted to 41,622 tons, and in 1940 to 92,434 tons; (c) the existence of large reserves of anthracite in the Slievardagh area has been proved; (d) samples raised from the Slievardagh deposits were of uniformly good quality. I do not contend that all these considerations would justify one in saying that large returns in the way of dividends may be expected from any moneys invested in the proposed company. I think they do provide sufficient justification for saying that there is a reasonable prospect that eventually this undertaking will be self-supporting, and having regard to the immediate importance of the problem from the wider economic point of view, that is as much, at this stage, as we are entitled to require.

The main provisions of the Bill are as follows: Section 1 contains definitions. Section 2 provides for registration by the Minister for Industry and Commerce of the company under the Companies Acts. Section 3 provides that the capital of the company shall be one hundred pound shares, all of which will be allotted and issued to the Minister for Finance. Sections 4 and 5 require that the Memorandum and Articles of Association of the company be approved by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, after consultation with the Minister for Finance. Section 5 also provides that the company shall not have power to issue any debentures. Section 6 provides that any alteration in the Articles of Association shall not be valid or effective without the approval of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Section 7 states that a loan to the extent of £250 may be given to pay the expenses of forming the company. Section 8 provides that the company shall apply for and will be given a lease of the Slievardagh coalfield.

Section 9 provides that the company may be given an advance out of the Vote for the Minister for Industry and Commerce, not exceeding £100,000 in all, for the purposes of its business. Sections 10 and 11 stipulate that advances made to the company shall be repaid with interest, but sub-section (3) of Section 11 provides that with the consent of the Minister for Industry and Commerce the Minister may waive altogether or postpone for such time as he thinks proper the payment of any half-yearly instalment. Section 12 empowers the Minister to call on the company to carry out prospecting operations either at Slievardagh or some other coalfield with a view to determining the advisability of further developing these areas. Section 14 provides that the shares of the company will be held in trust for the Minister for Finance. Sections 15 and 16 provide for the payment of dividends to the Exchequer, and obliges the company to furnish a balance sheet to the Minister within certain specific periods, and such balance sheet and profit and loss accounts are to be laid before Dáil Eireann in due course. These are the main provisions of the Bill, and, as I explained to the House, I hope it will be possible to give it a Second Reading to-day.

Mr. D. Morrissey

I think the House ought to be satisfied that the Minister has endeavoured to give all the relevant information that is at his disposal. Of course, it is apparent to the House that from the information at his disposal he was not inclined to be overenthusiastic or optimistic. He said that the Government were approaching this matter in a mood of caution and prudence. No one will object to that. It is desirable at any time, and particularly in present circumstances, that whatever deposits we have, such as those at Slievardagh, should be explored. I think it would not be unfair, if one is to judge by the tone of the Minister's speech, to say that this is more or less a gamble.

Mr. MacEntee

A speculation.

Mr. D. Morrissey

The Minister can choose the word. "Speculation" I suppose is the proper word to use in connection with the formation of companies and so on. But we are faced with this position. We are told that there are from 5,500,000 to 20,000,000 tons of good anthracite coal in that particular district. As the Minister stated in his speech, the consumption of anthracite has been increasing very rapidly in recent years. Notwithstanding the fact that in another of our coalfields we have been producing as good anthracite as any we have been importing, in the last year for which the Minister was able to give figures we had to import about 92,000 tons of anthracite. As Deputies are aware, anthracite is the most expensive of all coal. So far as I know, the price of anthracite in Dublin at the moment is about £5 per ton.

The Minister mentioned that it is 50 years since these coal mines were worked by what was known as the Irish Mining Company. Now, the Minister and the Government have certain difficulties to face. I do not know to what extent records have been kept and are available of whatever work has been carried on there for the last 50 years; whether, for instance, there are drawings or maps or other records available to the Minister and his Department of whatever borings were made, whatever shafts, if any, were sunk, whatever passages were built up, or whatever tunnels or passages may have collapsed or may be on the point of collapsing. Then there is, of course, the other point which the Minister mentioned in the way of anything in the nature of a large scale and rapid development, if such a thing were possible, and that is the scarcity, if not an entire lack of the skilled labour and technical staff essential to the successful and proper development of these mines.

I do not want to be any more enthusiastic than the Minister was. I do not want to leave myself open to the accusation that, because these mines happen to be situated in my constituency, I am going to ignore all the other aspects of the situation. But, I have to face this fact. Although the Minister, very properly, did not place any undue emphasis on the present circumstances, did not put them forward as a reason why the House should pass this Bill, we cannot ignore the necessity that there is, if it is possible for us to do so, for providing fuel in the nature of coal, which it is at present almost impossible to obtain from outside sources or obtain only in very limited quantities, and not only in very limited quantities, but very largely of a very inferior quality. There is also the absolute necessity for taking whatever steps we can take to provide for the inevitable great increase in unemployment. I am afraid it is inevitable that we will have very greatly increased unemployment. The only way in my opinion that it will be possible, apart from any question of the desirability of it, to provide for large numbers of additional unemployed is by the provision of work. I believe that in this project the Minister will have the goodwill and good wishes of every Deputy. It is a national matter which we all hope will be successful.

I do not want the Minister to misunderstand me—I am not trying to find fault—but as the Minister is going to put almost full powers into the hands of this company when established for the development of the mines, I should like to get an assurance that the Minister, and his colleague, the Minister for Finance, when selecting, as they will have to select I understand from the Bill, the directors of this company, will allow no consideration other than suitability for the particular job to enter into the selection of those directors; that so far as is possible, the board of directors will be composed of men who will be able to bring to the task expert knowledge, and, to put it in a nutshell, that no political consideration of any sort will enter into it. I want to make it clear that I am not suggesting that it is in the Minister's mind to do that. But I do say that no political consideration, and no consideration other than that the best type of men available will be put on the directorate, should enter into it.

There is one other point. It is a small point, but it is small bits of grit in the machinery that very often create a lot of trouble. I hope that neither the Minister nor the company, in the recruitment of the staff for these mines, whether it is the technical staff or, what is much more likely, the skilled, the semi-skilled, and the unskilled employees, will allow any question of politics to enter into it. If I had my way, I would automatically disqualify any man who applied for a job armed with a recommendation from a T.D., or the secretary of any political club in this country. That may appear to some people to be rather a small point to be making on the Second Stage of an important Bill like this. I make it because I am desirous that this effort should get every possible chance of succeeding. I am desirous that it should start off with the goodwill of every person not only in the Slievardagh area, but in the whole County of Tipperary and the adjoining counties, and I would be the last person to wish that anybody could say there was anything in the nature of political favouritism or any political pull. I do not believe the Minister would lend himself to that. I want to say quite frankly that, on a matter like this, I do not believe the Minister would be so foolish as to do that. If you like, I merely want to throw out a friendly word of warning to the Minister that such a thing may be done without his knowledge.

So far as the project itself is concerned, I can only repeat that I think the Minister gave the House a very full statement on it. He explained it clearly and did not try to paint the lily in any way. I do not think he asked the House to accept this as being anything more than an experiment. He is satisfied, and apparently the Government are satisfied, having regard to all the information they have been able to get, particularly from the survey undertaken between 1933 and 1937, which was the least optimistic of all the surveys made up to that date, that this State would be justified in expending at least £100,000 to satisfy itself as to whether it should go further with the development of this particular coal-mine or not.

Mr. Cogan

I want to compliment the Minister on the introduction of the Bill and on the comprehensive and informative statement which he gave to the House. It is a pity that there was not a larger attendance of members to hear the statement.

Mr. Dillon

They can read it later.

Mr. Cogan

I am sure every member of the House will be prepared to co-operate in the passage of this Bill, and in making the object aimed at a success. The Minister said that he was approaching this project in a very cautious manner. I am sure he has good reasons for doing so. Some operations of this nature undertaken by the State have not been such as to encourage the Minister to go forward.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Cogan

Nevertheless, I feel and I think the country feels, that in the circumstances of the moment the Minister is entitled to go forward and to take the risks postulated in this Bill. Since it is not possible for private enterprise to undertake work of this kind, and since there is an urgent need for an increased production of anthracite, it is only right that the State should undertake this. The Minister gave some very strong reasons for this undertaking. The first was the fact that the existing and working coal-mines are not adequate to supply the nation's needs; and the second was that there is a growing demand for this type of product. At the present time, as we all know, anthracite is being used extensively not only for household purposes but as a fuel for transport as a substitute for petrol. Bearing those facts in mind, there is no reason why the Dáil should not give the Minister the powers he is seeking. Perhaps the Minister, when replying, would make some comparison between the deposits which are available in this particular coalfield and the deposits which are being worked commercially in other areas. That would enable members to form some idea of the prospect of success for this undertaking, and of the conditions under which mining work will have to be done.

The Minister also stated that the new company proposed to carry out exploration work, and prospecting in the area in question and in other areas as well. Having gained experience in this particular area, I wonder how far the company will be prepared to extend their activities to other areas. There are certainly possibilities of development in other areas. Some coal-mining development was undertaken in them by private enterprise. It was not, I think, a success. If this company is successful in its development work in the area in question, there is no reason why it should not carry out investigations in other areas.

The point raised by Deputy Morrissey in regard to the recruitment of employment in all branches of the work to be done, was, I think, a desirable one, inasmuch as a definite statement from the Minister would strengthen the hands of the new company in resisting attempts on the part of people to secure employment by the use of undue influence. For that reason I support the Deputy's statement, though I am sure that at the moment, the Minister has no intention of offending in that particular way. The Minister, as I have said, made a good case for this Bill. I have no hesitation in supporting it, though, I confess, coalmining is a subject about which I do not know very much.

Mr. Kennedy

Arising out of Deputy Morrissey's remarks, I would like to see this company avail of the services of a number of Irish nationals who, during the past 15 or 16 years, have had to migrate to England, and who are well experienced in coalmining. I think if they have good recommendations from the collieries in which they have worked, it does not matter a straw whether they are supporters of the Government or of Deputy Morrissey and his Party.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Hear, hear.

Mr. Kennedy

If you get experienced Irishmen you will find that they will give as good results as experienced Scotsmen, Englishmen, or even Americans. Since this State was set up, we have had experts from America, England, Scotland, and other places, and I think our experience has been that the Irish expert is as good as any other. I think it can be said of him that he is more sincere in giving service to his country. Therefore, I canvass the recruitment of coalmining workers from the colliery districts in England who have had to emigrate, and who, to my personal knowledge, have given good service in South Wales. They occupy positions of importance in the collieries there. As I have said, I would not object to their being employed if they were supporters of our friend, the enemy on the opposite side, or even of Deputy Cogan. Therefore, I advocate that, as far as we can, we should get our own nationals to work the coal-mine.

Colonel Ryan

I am compelled to support this Bill; I cannot do otherwise, as the money is to be spent in my own area, but I think the £100,000 at present voted is not sufficient. At the outset, there is one thing which I should like to warn the Minister against, and that is disturbing the people who have been making a living on that coalfield. They should not be disturbed until they get employment under, this Bill. As the Minister is well aware, there are 60 or 70 people—perhaps, if you take their families, there may be 150 people—who have been making a living by poaching those coalfields during a number of years. They have been earning a very good living, and their customers who bought the coal from them do not like to see them being taken off the road, as they say the coal will be dearer.

I want to remind the Minister that those people have acquired rights there by the continual raising of coal, and that they ought not now to be disturbed. The Minister ought not to disturb them until he puts them into employment under this company which is being formed. Also, outside the area of the coalfields there are people who have been making a very good living in raising coal. It is a dirty, cold job for the ordinary farmer or farmer's son, but, in a bleak area with bad tillage, they are very glad to go down into a pit and make £1 a day. The Bill gives power to the company to go outside and take over everything, and I want the Minister to see to it that whatever rights are acquired by those people are observed and continued, and that their condition when this company is formed will not be worse than before it was started.

As I say, I have to support the Bill, because it concerns my own area. I am dealing with people who think they are going to be millionaires when this thing is put through. They have been led to believe that, not now but for years, from that side of the House. They have been told that when this mine is going they will all be wealthy people. In their own interests I would almost oppose the Bill at the moment, except that it is purely an experiment. I want to ensure that those people who have been making a fairly good living for the past four or five years, working those coalfields, will be continued in their livelihood when the company is formed. I would ask the Minister to look into the whole matter very closely, and to see that this £100,000 is not completely wasted, or that it will not do more harm than good. I am glad that those coalfields are going to be developed, but I think the amount of money voted at the moment will be too small.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Cogan said that private enterprise could not exploit those coalfields. Did he ever ask himself why? Was there ever any reluctance to exploit the coalfields of South Wales, or the coalfields in the Black Country of England or the coalfields in Germany? On the contrary, there was always a fight that 40 could join in to see who would get the chance of exploiting them. The reason why private enterprise cannot exploit those coalfields is provided in the significant words used by the Minister—the disturbed geological condition. Now, we all know what that means; the coal seams are not economic coal seams.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Private enterprise did not develop the Shannon.

Mr. Dillon

Well, I will come to the Shannon. The reason those coalfields are not going to be exploited by private enterprise, and never would be exploited by private enterprise, is because they are the tail-end of the European coal deposit which was left after the glacier that slipped off into the Atlantic Ocean, and the disturbed geological condition to which the Minister refers is fully described in every elementary text-book on geology that touches on geology in this country. Of course, ten years ago the Minister for Industry and Commerce was denouncing Mr. Cosgrave because he did not exploit the mineral resources of this country, which were so abundant, so rich, and so unlimited. But, in ten years of office he has learned sense. He now comes before the House and says that the best recommendation he can give for this is that it is an experiment, and a very doubtful one at that.

However, I think on the whole that this experiment is worth making. The quality of the anthracite coal coming from Kilkenny is very good, and I suppose we may reasonably expect that the quality of the coal in this coalfield in Tipperary will approximate to it. In those circumstances I think where you have a national resource there under your feet, even though it is not strictly economic to extract it, you can justify it on a variety of other grounds, and I am reassured by the approach of the Minister to this problem, because I am satisfied that we are not going to be led into a bottomless morass of expenditure in connection with this attempt. That we will lose money on it is virtually certain, and I think it would be wrong to suggest to the House that there is any prospect of making a mercantile profit on this enterprise. I think the House ought to go into it in the full knowledge that it will be a subsidised industry as long as it continues to function. With that fully in mind —provided the subsidy is kept within a reasonable limit—considering the amount of employment which will be made available, and considering the compensating advantage of a reduction in our external purchases in the troubled world in which we live, I think the experiment could be defended, but if we are going to embark upon it let us at least take the elementary precautions to make it a success.

There is an immense amount of sound common sense in Deputy Ryan's representations here to-day. All of us know that in the Pennsylvania coalfields a most acute problem was created by an attempt on the part of the coal owners in that area to ignore the acquired rights of what Deputy Ryan, for want of a better word, described as poachers. There was a very large number of families who made a living out of poaching coal on the Pennsylvania coalfields. You cannot justify poaching coal out of another man's mine, but it is foolish to stick your head in the sand, to walk into an area where a custom is well established and simply expect that you can wipe it out overnight and upset the finances and the whole economic organisation of a large number of families. We have allowed that practice to grow up in the Slievardagh area, and we ought to take cognisance of it if we are going to regulate the working of the Slievardagh coal-mine.

The proposal put forward by Deputy Ryan is a most sensible one; that is, that if these people are prepared to be reasonable with the State, the State will be reasonable with them, and that preference will be given to members of families who the State are satisfied were living out of this business, by employment in the coal mines, if the development of the mine results in the abolition of this trade to which Deputy Ryan referred. There is a sound analogy for that in the practice of the Land Commission, where they give special consideration to the employees of an estate if that estate is acquired for distribution amongst the neighbouring uneconomic holders.

Samuel Gillette made a fortune by discovering the simple doctrine that you could not make money on safety razors, but you could make millions on safety razor blades. It was a good practice, he found, to give away razors; in fact it was good practice to pay people to take the razors away, because if people once got into the habit of using them, he argued, the demand for blades would enable him to make a satisfactory profit for an indefinite period. People forget how to use the old-fashioned "cut-throat," and are constrained to buy razor blades, whatever price the seller may want to charge for them.

If we intend to develop the use of anthracite in this country, we ought, as part of the activities of our company, promote the sale of anthracite-burning stoves and ranges. Would it not be worth our while to consider the advisability of an agreement with the manufacturers of Esse stoves to give a concession to this coal company to sell or promote the sale of these stoves, boilers or ranges in this country, and might it not be good to subsidise, out of the company's revenue, the sale of these articles, because once you have put a house or an institution on an anthracite-burning basis, that house or institution is your customer for good? The anthracite plant will not burn soft coal, whereas if you leave these institutions with soft coal-burning appliances, these appliances will never satisfactorily burn anthracite coal. The fact is that the Kilkenny coal burns in the modern Esse and Aga equipment as satisfactorily as Welsh anthracite coal, and we all know that the immense increase in the consumption of anthracite coal is largely due to the installation of Aga and Esse ranges and stoves all through the country. The scope for expanding the use of these is immense.

What I am afraid of is that, after we have sunk our money in Slievardagh, some warrior will call on the Minister and announce that he is going to make anthracite stoves in Ballydehob, that he wants a tariff of 95 per cent., a quota, a guarantee of profit and an ample expense account for himself, his niece, his two first cousins and an aunt—which he will get—whereupon anthracite stoves will become too expensive for anybody to buy. Our money will meanwhile be invested in the Slievardagh coal-mine and the net results will be unsatisfactory for everybody. Can we assume now, if we are going to give the money to the Government to sink in Slievardagh, that they will do the best they can to sell the maximum amount of this coal so that the enterprise will be given the best possible chance of success, or are we to assume that, having sunk public money in developing this coal-mine, the equipment necessary efficiently to burn the coal is going to be made subject to tariffs and restrictions to such effect that we will ultimately end up by having no suitable equipment to burn the coal except what can be provided only in the houses of millionaires?

I should like to see this coal produced and made the fuel, not of the select few, but of the masses of our people, and I should like to see the stoves requisite efficiently to burn it made available for even the poorest houses. If that is done, then we will feel that we are doing something useful. There is this danger. Other interests may prevent that coming to pass. Will the Minister give us an assurance that in future his primary concern in regard to anthracite coal will be to secure the maximum consumption at the lowest possible price, and that that will go not only in respect to the coal but to the stoves in which to burn it?

Mr. Norton

I should like to welcome the departure which this Bill indicates from the previous practice of relying exclusively on private enterprise. So far as the exploitation of our mineral resources is concerned, private enterprise has hopelessly failed. It is true, as Deputy Dillon says, that the disinclination on the part of private enterprise has been due largely to fears that the mineral deposits are not marketable and that the expenditure of money on the exploitation of minerals is likely to be accompanied by a prolonged period of financial headache, with the possibility that in the end all the money invested will be lost. There is little doubt that private enterprise would never go into the Slievardagh coalfield, just as private enterprise has been reluctant to go into other coalfields, except on a restricted scale. I am glad the Minister has recognised that these deposits can only be exploited under the aegis of the State and, in so far as they will be exploited and will produce fuel for the community and give much-needed employment, I welcome this Bill as a progressive measure.

I hope the Minister will not be content with the development merely of the Slievardagh coalfields. There are deposits elsewhere which, in peaceful times, and if we were afflicted with a wave of prosperity, we could afford to leave untouched, but, in existing circumstances, it is absolutely imperative, being in the blockaded position in which we are to-day, to develop every possible mineral deposit in the country. Not merely must we do that in respect of minerals, but we must do it in respect of every other commodity which we formerly imported, and which we cannot now import because of lack of shipping facilities. I hope the Minister will not content himself with exploiting the Slievardagh coal deposits, but that he will insist, as he has the power to do, on the directors of the company to be established under this Bill prospecting in other areas, and, if coal is found in circumstances which justify its exploitation, I trust there will be no hesitancy about developing such deposits to the fullest extent.

There are extensive coal deposits in the Carlow area. Rossmore colliery has been worked on rather rudimentary principles up to the present, but, if the viewpoint of local people is to be accepted, and their memories go back a considerable number of years, there are very large deposits there, not merely of coal, but of other minerals which are usually found in close association with coal. The Minister is aware, and so is his Department, that efforts have been made to exploit these coal deposits by private enterprise, but it is not possible at this stage to say whether these efforts will be successful. If, however, they are not successful, I urge the Minister to bear in mind the extent of these deposits, and to utilise the instrument provided in the Bill to ensure that these deposits, like those of Slievardagh, will be exploited to the fullest, so that we may, so far as possible, relieve the chronic fuel famine which will undoubtedly ensue if we are unable to import fuel from other countries.

This Bill, of course, brings to the fore, as other Bills in other circumstances have done, the question as to the manner in which the coalfield is to be exploited and the affairs of the company directed. We have a number of boards in this country which have been established under legislation and under Votes of money provided by the House, many of the directors of which are simply political nominees—ex-Deputies, ex-Senators, folk of one kind or another who do not commend themselves to the electorate, hard-luck cases which occur after every election and somebody feels that there is some necessity to try to Find a board on which these people can be put. We put them on these boards and we pay them very handsomely. I think that practice savours of the grossest nepotism, and I do not think we are doing any credit to the State, or reflecting any credit on our legislation or parliamentary practices, by loading up these boards with either active camp followers of the Party in power or the casualties that occur at election times.

I hope this board is not going to be a political board as some of them already in existence are. If you take the Hospitals Commission, the Turf Board, the Agricultural Credit Corporation and the Sugar Board and look at the directors, you will find a common streak through them all— political nominees. I am not saying that the same thing was not done when the Cumann na nGaedheal Party was in office, but I do say now that if Cumann na nGaedheal started it, this Government have brought it to a fine art in so far as the limited field at their disposal is concerned. I am opposed to that practice. I think it a disreputable practice which merely means loading people into jobs. If we are going to develop turf, we ought to find people with the ability to do it, and if we are going to develop coal, we ought to get technicians to do the development. What we ought to try to do is to get away from the unsavoury practice of putting camp-followers into positions as directors of these boards. I hope that that odious practice, which has continued in this House for the past 18 or 19 years, will not be perpetuated in the present instance, and that it will not be resorted to on future occasions, either.

The Minister is empowered to require the board, under Section 16, to furnish a balance sheet in such form as he decides and that balance sheet shall be laid before the House, which, of course, means that it is laid in the Library. One does not get a sufficiently extensive picture of the activities of a company merely by looking at its balance sheet, and I think that what the Minister ought to do in connection with this section is not merely to require the board to present an audited statement of accounts and a profit and loss account, but to produce as well a reasonably concise report as to its activities, so that we may not merely know the purely cash transactions of the board, but may have some idea as to the nature of its activities, the policy it has pursued and its programme for the future. A reasonably brief statement on these lines would, I think, be helpful to the House and to the country, and would help to throw some light on the activities of a company in respect of which the public are going to put up £100,000.

As I said at the outset, I welcome the Bill. I think it is a useful departure from the previous policy of leaving the development of such resources to private enterprise which failed—the circumstances under which it failed are immaterial—to develop these deposits. I congratulate the Minister on having the courage to come to the House to ask for money for a purpose of this kind. I hope that the exploitation of the coalfields will be a success and that it will help to dissipate a good deal of the doubts and misgivings which every pioneer of mineral development in this country meets, even in high places, when he attempts to suggest that our mineral deposits should be exploited for the benefit of the nation.

Mr. MacEntee

I am grateful to the House for the reception which the Bill has received. I have endeavoured, in putting it before the House, to be quite candid in regard to the problem which we have to face in undertaking the development of the Slievardagh coalfield, but I should not like the House to think that, because I have been cautious and conservative in my description of this venture, it is entirely in the nature of a gamble. It is, I think, a legitimate speculation. We may go in there and because the field is a faulty field, and because the difficulties have been intensified by reason of the old workings to which Deputy Morrissey referred, and of which, I should like to say, we have no record, we may not succeed in proving the field to be a practicable one.

That is a fact which I felt it necessary to put before the House in order that everybody might understand that we could give no guarantee that this £100,000, no matter how judiciously handled, would be a safe venture. I hope the risk we are taking will be justified and I hope that, in consequence, we shall be able to provide employment here for perhaps 500 or 600 people for 30 or 40 years; but that is a hope. It is a hope which justifies the expenditure we propose to undertake, but I have no certainty that the hope will be realised, and I want that to be quite clear. I think it desirable that we should, all of us, know what the situation in that regard may be.

With regard to the board, I shall endeavour to select a board which will be capable of doing its job and, having selected them, I intend to tell them that full responsibility for the success or otherwise of this undertaking rests with them, bearing, of course, in mind that I am familiar with the difficulties with which they may have to contend, but that, nevertheless, they will be held responsible, if they select people who are unfit for the tasks which are going to be entrusted to them. Beyond that, I can say that there will be no interference on my part with this company in its operations. But as, naturally, I have, with the Minister for Finance, to carry public responsibility for this undertaking, it will be clear that my judgment will have to carry in selecting the personnel of the board. I can say to the House that it is my intention that those selected, so far as we can procure them in this country, will be particularly qualified for their task.

Bearing in mind what I have said, Deputy Ryan will understand that I can give no guarantee as to how the board may deal with persons interested, but I hope that, being composed of competent men, it will recognise as Deputy Ryan and Deputy Dillon have recognised, the advisability of ensuring that, so far as possible, the existing interests on the field are not disregarded. Again, I do not propose to tie the hands of the board by making any declaration here. Matters will have to be left to the judgment of the board. That applies also to the question which Deputy Kennedy mentioned, the position of Irishmen who might be particularly qualified for work in the mine, who may be abroad, but may seek employment. We know that one of the difficulties in getting any enterprise going in a rural, or indeed in any circumscribed area in Ireland, arises from the fact that sometimes it may be necessary to bring in labour, and that difficulties may be created by that. I shall have to depend in regard to that matter upon the judgment, good sense, and competency of the board to do what is in the best interests of the company and, of course, of the country as a whole.

I have no difficulty in giving the assurance which Deputy Dillon mentioned in precise terms when he was sitting down, that the primary job of the company will be to push and to secure the sale of anthracite coal to the maximum extent possible. That, of course, will be borne in mind by me in regard to any proposal which may come before me, if one of the effects of it might be to restrict the sale of anthracite. It will be one of the functions of the board, as soon as it gets going, and as soon as we have satisfied ourselves that it has justified itself, and has a proper organisation, to undertake the work of investigating and exploring other coal deposits in this country. I should like to say that the first task of the board will be to try to open up Slievardagh coalfield and get it going, and the rest of its activities at the moment must be subsidiary to that. Accordingly I should like Deputy Norton not to be under the misconception that the moment we get this company formed it is going to start exploring other coalfields simultaneously with its attempt to develop the Slievardagh coalfield. I do not think that would be fair to the company, or that it would be likely to be productive of the best results from the point of view which the Deputy has in mind.

Deputy Cogan asked me to tell the House how the deposits at Slievardagh compared with Castlecomer. According to the report of the consulting engineer the quality of the coal at Slievardagh is comparable to the coal at Castlecomer. In some respects, as far as I know, it is not quite the same standard, though the difference is very slight and we may find in the actual working of the mine that the seams may improve as developed. In any event, it certainly is not, according to the analysis, an inferior grade of anthracite, and if we can extract it from the mine in sufficient quantities to make medium scale working possible it will be a valuable asset.

Mr. Hughes

What is the thickness of the seams?

Mr. MacEntee

Some are 16 and some are 18 inches. They vary. The thickness of the seams would be about the same. The only thing is that the Slievardagh field is more faulty, so that the Castlecomer coalfield may be less difficult to work. The extent of the coal measures is more certain at Castlecomer than at Slievardagh. The consulting engineer reported that in this particular area, in the seams worth developing, there are about 5,500,000 tons. Some people think that estimate too high, that it might be about 4,000,000 tons. It is something between these figures. On the other hand, I gather that at Castlecomer they have proved reserves of over 5,500,000 tons.

In the case of Arigna, the position is that there are about 8,500,000 tons of coal there, consisting of main coal and crow coal, the latter of which is estimated at 4,500,000 or 5,000,000 tons. Arigna coal is semi-anthracite, a steam coal, but it is not the same high carbon content as Slievardagh and Castlecomer, though it is a steam coal, and burns easier. It is fair coal and I only wish we had more of it in this country. The only other deposit of any significance is that in the Munster coalfield and that field is of so faulty a nature that no one has been able to express any authoritative opinion as to its value or possibilities. Perhaps, when the new company gets going it may be able to undertake work which it has not been possible to get done in any sort of regular way, and that is to examine that coalfield also.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, March 12th.