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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 May 1941

Vol. 83 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47—Secondary Education.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £323,150 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1942, chun Meán-Oideachais maraon le Deontas Tuarastal na Múinteoir£, Deontas Ceanntsraithe, Breis-Tuarastal do Mhúinteoirí Meán-Scoile, agus Deontas do Chiste Pinsin na Meán-Mhúinteoirí.

That a sum, not exceeding £323,150, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1942, for Secondary Education, including the Teachers' Salaries Grant, Capitation Grant, Incremental Salary to Secondary School Teachers and Grant to the Secondary Teachers' Pension Fund.

I would like to ask the Minister, with reference to the question of secondary teachers who joined the Army and in respect of which we had some discussion here some time ago, whether he has come to any conclusion to allow service in the Army to count towards increment? The second point is that a lot has been said in the general debate about the position with regard to the Irish language. The Minister has particularly indicated how unsatisfactory the position with regard to the language teachers is in the higher stages. On the secondary school side, there are three classes of schools—schools in which Irish is the sole medium of instruction, schools in which the time devoted to Irish is not less than that devoted to English and schools which teach a subject or two through the medium of Irish.

On the economic aspect of the question, during the last couple of years a special increase has been given in the capitation grant to those schools. At the same time, we have complaints that no assistance is given outside the homes in the work of the restoration of the language as the ordinary spoken language. To my mind, if there is any part of the whole scheme where really solid work is hoped for and is being done, it is in the Grade A schools, that is, in those schools where the whole work is done through the medium of Irish.

If the policy is to restore Irish as a spoken language, and if the difficulties the Minister finds himself up against are so great, how does he bring himself to stop or cut down the grants now in the case of secondary schools where the whole work of secondary education through the medium of Irish is being thoroughly and satisfactorily done? I raise this question particularly in regard to the Grade A schools. If we are to have more of that class, the next schools to become Grade A schools will be the B 1—or some of them, at any rate. The only interpretation I can put on the Minister's action in cutting down these grants is that there are schools claiming to be A and B 1 and C 2 which are not qualified to be so, and that the Minister is rather trying to discourage them and let them fall away. If that is so—and that is the impression one would get—these schools should be advised that they are attempting something they are not prepared for. However, where there are secondary schools carrying out the whole of their work through the medium of Irish, thoroughly inspected by the Department, and where the inspector is satisfied that the work is being well done, the full 25 per cent. grant should be given.

It is impossible to understand the cut, and the whole position with regard to the Departmental outlook on the work done in the schools for the language, and the relationship between that and the restoration of the spoken language in the families outside. The Department can have no grip on it and the Minister can have no grip on it either. If the policy still is to use Irish where the circumstances are favourable, where the pupils are ready for it and where the teachers are qualified, as the sole medium of education —and that certainly should be fostered —I know schools carrying on this work, where they have been put in a struggling position simply because these grants have been reduced. That is one of the actions which prevents any understanding of the position. Does the Minister really think he is doing the right thing when he cuts grants in these ways? We hope these schools may grow, that they may extend their premises and the number of their teachers. We hope they may attract additional pupils, and, if the Irish language is to flourish, schools like these must attract additional students. Any possibility of expansion is choked in many of these cases through lack of capital and through the cutting down of grants which they received in the past. That reduction is very poor recompense for their work and a poor sign of the Department's outlook and its encouragement of their work. It is a blow to the development of these schools.

When I review the whole situation and see all the complaints that were made and all the difficulties spoken of, the one spot in the whole situation that stands out and gives firm ground for hope is the Grade A schools. They should receive more consideration in the general scheme than, apparently, the Minister has given them, if the reduction of the grants is a sign of the Ministerial outlook on their position in regard to the use of Irish as a factor in education and the spread of Irish as an ordinary spoken tongue.

I fully agree with the Deputy's tribute to the Grade A schools. Certainly, without them, the progress of Irish would not have been so satisfactory. In my opinion the greatest credit is due to them for their hard work over a long period of years. Some of them started so far back as 1924. They have continued the policy of teaching all subjects through Irish since then and have, at the same time, maintained a high position—sometimes the highest position—in the examination lists.

The schools which were teaching through Irish received special grants which, I think, might be fairly described as generous, in order to induce them to adopt that policy. In normal circumstances, there would be no question of interfering with these. The teachers, also, who do the teaching through Irish, get a bonus and this bonus is still being paid to them so that, so far as the teachers are concerned, they have not suffered by reason of this economy.

I assume that, in view of the general increase in the number of students in secondary schools, and the fact that the capitation grant has gone up during the present year, and has shown a steady increase every year for many years past, the A schools are also prospering to some extent from the annual increases in the number of students. Although the amount of the grant in respect of individual schools has been reduced by a percentage, the total amount payable in grants for Irish and bi-lingual schools shows an increase this year as compared with last year. So that, although the economy is one which—if the Deputy wishes to put it that way—is directed against a body who have been specially zealous about Irish, I do not think it is an undue burden upon them. I think they themselves would admit that the grants have been fairly generous up to the present. We have got to make economies somewhere. This economy, although only announced at a much later stage, was decided upon very early in the war, and I think we can be thankful that in the field of education we have not been compelled to adopt much greater economies. I believe, if we can get away with small economies of this nature, and provide for our educational services at the present level for the remainder of the emergency, that we may congratulate ourselves.

I submit to the Minister that he is quite wrong in saying this is a war economy, that this was an economy decided on in the year 1939-40, and that the payment for the year 1939-40 was £14,538 as against £21,943 two years before that, and £22,878 in 1938-39. The Minister does admit that this was a pre-war business?

No; I do not. At the end of 1939, as far as I remember, the decision was taken, but previous to the war there had been a reduction in the normal grants to schools—I do not know what the exact date was—but I think all schools suffered as a result of that reduction some years ago. The decision with regard to the A schools grants was only taken after the war.

Again, as I say, it is allowing the resurrection of the bayonet and the defensive organisations in this country to choke our life. We are spending £8,000,000 on defensive purposes and in the state of our political, educational and Governmental mind as to the necessity for making up for the ravages of the past on the Irish language and protecting it against the very big dangers of the present, we are saving a total of £7,000 on A, B.1 and B.2 schools. I do not know how much of that is a saving on A schools, where the whole of the secondary education scheme is done through the medium of Irish. Many of these schools are acting as binders to the work that is done in the primary schools around them. They are securing that children that go through the primary schools will keep up their Irish so that they will be admitted to the A schools when they come. I submit that this is a matter that ought to be further considered. We really ought to make up our minds whether we are going to allow ourselves to be put into blinkers and spend money like water in one particular direction and simply close our minds to the things that are really constructive and that will bring us strength, national and otherwise, during this particular crisis. If the A schools in the past had to start with these grants, it is very little encouragement to the other schools to face up to the work of teaching through the medium of Irish and to face the difficulties which the A schools have gone through. In my opinion, heroic work has been done by these people, but it is not that that moves me to mention it here. It is the question, is there any direction in the situation in which you can look and find that constructive work being constructively done that is done in the A schools? I do not think there is and if that work is damaged, if it is not encouraged, if we are going to save an odd £1,000 or £2,000 on that at the present moment, to the detriment of the extension of these schools, I think it will be false economy. The Minister says teachers are in the same position. What I want to point out is that they are being cramped in the matter of the extension and improvement of these schools. I do not think they should be. I think these economies are a blow to the most important work that is being done for the language at the present time.

Vote put and agreed to.
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