Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 1942

Vol. 85 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Supplementary and Additional Estimates. Vote 59—Unemployment Insurance and Unemployment Assistance.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £10 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch 31adh Márta, 1942, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Arachais Díomhaointis agus Malartán Fostaíochta (maraon le Síntiúisí do Chiste an Díomhaointis) agus i dtaobh Conganta Dhíomhaointis agus chun seirbhísí áirithe i dtaobh Liúntaisí Bídh (9 Edw. 7, c. 7; 10 & 11 Geo. 5, c. 30; 11 Geo. 5, c. 1; 11 & 12 Geo. 5, c. 15; 12 Geo. 5, c. 7; Uimh. 17 de 1923; Uimh. 26 agus Uimh. 59 de 1924; Uimh. 21 de 1926; Uimh. 33 de 1930; Uimh. 44 agus Uimh. 46 de 1933; Uimh. 38 de 1935; Uimh. 2 de 1938; Uimh. 28 de 1939; agus Uimh. 4 de 1940).

That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1942, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Unemployment Insurance and Employment Exchanges (including Contributions to the Unemployment Fund) and Unemployment Assistance and for certain services in connection with Food Allowances (9 Edw. 7, c. 7; 10 & 11 Geo. 5, c. 30; 11 Geo. 5, c. 1; 11 & 12 Geo. 5, c. 15; 12 Geo. 5, c. 7; No. 17 of 1923; Nos. 26 and 59 of 1924; No. 21 of 1926; No. 33 of 1930; Nos. 44 and 46 of 1933; No. 38 of 1935; No. 2 of 1938; No. 28 of 1939; and No. 4 of 1940).

This Supplementary Estimate was necessary because the original Estimate introduced for the year for the unemployment insurance and unemployment assistance services contained no provision for the administrative expenses arising in connection with the food voucher scheme. The expenses in connection with that scheme fall to be met out of the Unemployment Insurance and Unemployment Assistance Vote. It is not anticipated the amount of the expenses which will arise will involve any excess on the sum originally provided, and this is just a token Supplementary Estimate necessary to provide the authority required to charge the account of such expenses against the Vote.

As, however, this is the first occasion upon which it has been necessary to come to the Dáil since the initiation of the food allowances scheme on a matter associated with that scheme, it might be of interest to Deputies if I were to give a brief review of the progress of the scheme to date. The first issue of food vouchers was made on 4th September last year. It was made on that date in respect of dependents of persons in receipt of unemployment assistance, and the first issue was made on 5th September to other qualified classes of persons. In every week since then, food vouchers have been issued in respect of approximately 84,000 persons resident in urban areas. These 84,000 persons can be sub-divided as follows: Dependents of persons in receipt of unemployment assistance, 34,000; old-aged pensioners, blind pensioners, and their dependent children, 24,000; widows and children who are beneficiaries under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts, 22,000, and recipients of disablement benefit under the National Health Insurance Acts, who are in necessitous circumstances, 4,000.

Of the total of 84,000, very nearly half, that is 39,000, are resident in the City of Dublin or the Borough of Dun Laoghaire. The weekly allowances in kind which are provided for each qualified person are 3½ pints of milk, a ¼ of a lb. of creamery butter, and 2 lbs. of batch bread, so that the quantities of food made available each week under the scheme are 36,750 gallons of milk, 187½ cwts. of butter, and 84,000 2-lb. loaves. The scheme provides that shop-keepers who exchange food vouchers for the specified quantities and kinds of goods may present them at the appropriate cash value to the wholesale suppliers of food, and the wholesalers are obliged to accept these food vouchers for encashment when so presented and will receive the cash from the appropriate branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce The arrangements made for the prompt encashment of these food vouchers have proved satisfactory, payment normally being made within one week of the receipt of vouchers. In conclusion, I should like to express a special word of thanks to both retailers and wholesalers for the way in which they have co-operated in ensuring the successful working of the scheme.

General Mulcahy

This matter, generally, was drawn attention to before we entered on the budgetary position last year, and certain undertakings were given by the Government that additional assistance in the matter of relief would be given, and subsequently this order was made. I would suggest to the Minister at this stage, however, that a full review of the whole situation will be necessary before the presentation of the budgetary position and the financial proposals for the coming year are made, because anybody who knows the circumstances, and a lot of people who do not know the circumstances, fear what the exact position is, that is, that between the various payments that are made, unemployment insurance, unemployment assistance, national health insurance and, possibly, outdoor relief and all that, there are very many cases in which there is inadequate provision if we are going to maintain people who are below the poverty line in any kind of an efficient physical state, not to talk about the moral state, and as between these gaps there are various cases in which hardship arises with which there is no means of dealing.

When we come to the people who are in receipt of unemployment assistance and the people who are in receipt of poor relief, again there are very many cases in which the provision is not really adequate for the physical needs of the people or for maintaining in any way their self-respect. With the rise in prices at the present time, and particularly with the difficulty, as a result of the unsuitability of the fuel available, of getting the best out of even the food that is available, the distress is very much increased. I have not the order with me, under which there is a restriction as to the number of dependents in respect of whom these allowances can be made, but the Minister is probably aware that a person with six dependent children can get six allowances for these children, but if he has eight or ten children he still can get only six allowances. There is some queer rigidity of mind, on the part of whomever framed the order, which ignores the circumstances in which the person with a large family of ten or 11 children finds himself. That person is told in an arbitrary kind of way: "You may have ten or 11 children, but you are only going to get food vouchers for six." Under the present circumstances you have people, depending on unemployment assistance, having to go then to the relieving officer to get outdoor relief, and, very often, to the charitable societies to get additional assistance. I think the whole situation should be brought more closely under review when we face the proposals for the next year, with a view to seeing what we are going to do to maintain people, who are below the poverty line, efficiently, and to see, particularly, that all the children, whether there be six, eight, ten or 12 in the family, are adequately looked after and that a child is not penalised simply because he is the seventh or the eighth or the ninth in the family.

I would point out to the Minister here that he has given us figures with regard to those who are in receipt of relief under this voucher system, in receipt of unemployment insurance benefits, old age pensions, blind pensions, and so on, but it implies that no arrangement has been made by which these vouchers will be given to people who are in receipt simply of home assistance. I should like to ask the Minister whether it is not a fact that people in receipt of home assistance can get these vouchers and, if not, whether he thinks that it ought to be extended to such people.

Mr. Keyes

I should like to endorse Deputy Mulcahy's appeal to the Minister for a general review of this whole matter when we come to deal with the general Estimates for the coming year, particularly in regard to many people who are what might be called borderline cases and who are left out. Deputy Mulcahy referred to the fact that these food vouchers are only supplied for six children in a family, and that there is no relief for children over that number. Obviously, that is a matter that calls for serious attention, with a view to seeing whether the relief could be extended to all the children in the family. Another hardship is that the vouchers are only available in certain urban areas. Immediately outside the fixed or marked urban boundary you will often find the same density of population and the same poverty as inside the boundary, and yet these people are excluded from the benefit of these vouchers. I think that is a matter which should be dealt with in the forthcoming Estimates, as it is one that calls for immediate attention because many of these people have been removed from the city and are in dire poverty. Some of them are widows, perhaps, and some are living on home help from the county authorities, but just because they are located outside the fixed mark they are excluded from participation in the voucher system. I think the obvious thing would be to grant these people the same facilities as their immediate neighbours. There is another point I want to put to the Minister, but I am not so sure about it. I think that this is not available to widows drawing the non-contributory pension.

Mr. Lemass

Yes, it is.

Mr. Keyes

I had complaints from some of these people and I was not quite sure for which reason they were excluded—whether it was because they were outside the area or for the other reason. I think that the fact that the pensions that are available to them under the non-contributory scheme are so meagre, makes them all the more deserving of the vouchers which their fellows are getting. I trust that these matters will receive the Minister's favourable consideration when it comes to a revision of the provisions of the food voucher system.

Mr. Corish

I also should like to appeal to the Minister to have provision made in so far as people living immediately outside the urban areas are concerned. Those people who are living just on the borders of the town, but immediately outside the borough or city boundary, suffer the same degree of poverty, and have to pay the same for food stuffs and the other necessaries of life as the people living inside the boundary. When they do work, their work is inside the town, and when they are unemployed, they are treated differently from those who live inside the city or town. I came across recently a great many instances of hardship in the case of people who live on the outskirts of the town. Personally, I am of opinion that those vouchers should be made available to people who live in the rural areas and who draw unemployment assistance, in the same way as they are available to people living in urban areas and drawing unemployment assistance; but if the Minister cannot see his way to extend them to the whole of the rural areas, I do think there ought to be a prescribed radius outside each of the towns and cities, and that the same conditions should be applied to people living there as apply to people living inside the towns. The same degree of poverty exists there, and there is the same necessity for those vouchers.

Mr. Lemass

Perhaps the fact that the three Deputies who spoke on the Estimate confined themselves to general questions is, in itself, an indication that the administration of the scheme is satisfactory. In the normal course of events——

Mr. Keyes

Yes; it is very satisfactory.

Mr. Lemass

I think it is no harm to have it on record that there is very little complaint about the manner in which the scheme has been administered. In fact, the complaints are remarkably few, having regard to the nature of the scheme and the innovation it constituted in the social services provided by the State. I do not know what review of the position in respect of social services Deputy Mulcahy desires to have. It is, of course, always possible to contend that the assistance provided for destitute persons, or others who are near destitution, by means of the social services is insufficient. Obviously financial considerations primarily determine the extent of the assistance that can be provided. There may be other considerations also, but it is primarily the matter of cost that prevents the extension of those services in the manner which is always suggested by Deputies when they come up here for discussion. I do not think, however, that we should, in any review of the social services, leave out of account— as some Deputies are disposed to do— the activities of the home assistance authorities. In the framing of the Unemployment Assistance Acts, and other social service legislation, the existence of the home assistance authorities and the responsibility which they have to relieve destitution arising in their areas was taken into account. It was always realised that any State scheme administered in accordance with the principles laid down by Parliament, and confined to persons who come within certain defined categories, would leave gaps which could only be filled by the home assistance authorities. Every State scheme of social relief can apply only to certain easily definable classes of people, and it is not always possible to extend those definitions so as to ensure that nobody will be overlooked. We had in mind, in framing those measures, the possibility that there would be individuals or even small sections of people who would be overlooked, but we kept in mind the fact that the home assistance service was there, that there was on the home assistance authority the obligation to relieve destitution, no matter from what cause arising, and that they would fill in those gaps by giving special assistance to those who were not provided for under State schemes.

Mr. Corish

Does not the Minister know that the tendency is the other way so far as the local authorities are concerned?

Mr. Lemass

I would not say that. In fact, so far as those urban areas are concerned, I do not think that is correct. It is true that in the rural areas there is often a disinclination to go to the local authority.

Mr. Corish

I am talking about people just immediately outside the urban area.

Mr. Lemass

I was dealing with the precise point made by Deputy Mulcahy that there were gaps in the social services. To fill those gaps the home assistance authority exists, and in many respects a scheme of unemployment assistance or other State scheme for the relief of distress is not complete in the sense that it does not cover everybody who could possibly be brought within the category of persons for whom the scheme was intended. Reference was made by Deputy Mulcahy, for instance, to the fact that there is a limit to the number of dependents in respect of whom unemployment assistance is paid. It is the limitation, imposed by the Unemployment Assistance Act, that imposes a similar limitation on those food vouchers. When the Unemployment Assistance Act was before the Dáil as a Bill that matter was adverted to. It was explained then that the Government contemplated that, in the case of families of larger size than the maximum entitled to the assistance provided under the Act, the home assistance authority would supplement the amount of unemployment assistance payable, in order to give to that family the greater amount of assistance which its larger size obviously necessitated. That applies also in respect of those food vouchers. The home assistance authorities operate a food voucher scheme of their own, and that answers one of the queries raised by Deputy Mulcahy. To enable them to do that, the State provides a subsidy of £400,000. The persons receiving food vouchers from the local authorities are, of course, additional to the number I have given as representing the persons who are receiving food vouchers under the Emergency Powers Order.

It was not, therefore, rigidity of mind which limited the scope of operation of the Unemployment Assistance Act and consequently of the food allowances order, or any other social service. It was the knowledge that any State scheme, to be effectively administered and to avoid the possibility of abuse arising, had to be so framed that it would apply only to persons who could be easily defined and brought within clearly recognisable categories, and that those persons who could not fit themselves within those definitions or categories had to be provided for otherwise. Of course the home assistance authorities are in a better position to provide for those people because they can carry out an investigation of the individual circumstances in a manner which is not possible under any State scheme. It may be true that circumstances have so changed that the adequacy of the assistance provided under the various social services requires reconsideration.

On the other hand, the multiplication of those services has created a situation which is causing concern in the minds of some people, concern which has already had expression in the newspapers. Cases have arisen where the heads of families in receipt of unemployment assistance and food vouchers, plus a contribution from the home assistance authorities and occasionally an additional contribution from a charitable organisation like the St. Vincent de Paul Society, have found that the total income of their household when not working was as great, if not greater, than the income they would have when employment became available to them. Cases of that kind have arisen, and while I do not say they are numerous or sufficiently serious in character to cause any great perturbation, it is quite obvious to anybody that a further extension of the social services of the State or an increase in the individual assistance given under those social services could create a situation which would cause anomalies and difficulties of a new kind. If anybody criticises our existing social services because of a few instances of that kind, the criticism can be answered on the ground that the individual needs of the person concerned were examined by competent officers both of the local authority and of the charitable organisation, and that those competent officers, having carried out that examination, arrived at a conclusion as to the minimum required to enable that particular family to be maintained, and anything less than that minimum would be inadequate. So that even if the head of the family were to get work at a lower wage than the aggregate of the contributions he received from the various public and private authorities, that wage would probably require to be supplemented by some of those charitable organisations to enable the family to be maintained. I think, however, it can be said that the provision of this food allowance scheme has gone a long way to ease the situation which was arising in the cities and towns and has nullified to a large extent the fluctuation in the price of foodstuffs, at any rate so far as the unemployed are concerned, and also the other classes of persons to whom the scheme applies, because, of course, these food allowances are made irrespective of the price of the various classes of food supplied at any time, and that will continue to be the case.

It is true that the food allowance scheme applies only to urban areas at present. The decision to confine it to urban areas originally was due to the fact that the Government appreciated that the special circumstances of the time were more likely to cause hardship and difficulty in the towns than in the rural areas. I think everybody recognises that that is the case. It was the knowledge that the people in the towns, the workers and unemployed in the towns, were likely to be more seriously affected by the adverse conditions existing that led the Government to the decision to supplement the assistance then being given in those urban areas. It would be a matter of administrative difficulty, apart altogether from the question of the desirability of it, to extend the food allowance scheme to rural areas. But, clearly, so long as you have a differentiation between urban and rural areas, a borderline case will arise. No matter where you draw the border, whether you draw it at the borough or urban boundary, or a mile beyond the boundary, there will always arise the case of the man just outside the boundary who is consequently deprived of the same measure of assistance which the person who is just inside the boundary is entitled to receive.

Mr. Corish

There is usually a cluster of houses outside the boundary.

Mr. Lemass

That may happen undoubtedly. It does exist in acute form in some districts where borough housing schemes have to be extended outside the borough boundary. But I think we should not lose sight of the problem which arises when an attempt is made to depart from recognised boundaries in matters of this kind, and the borough authorities could ease the situation for themselves by taking whatever measures are open to them for an extension of the borough boundary to include those urban workers within the borough area. I do not know what the difficulty is in getting an extension of the borough boundary.

Mr. Corish

It is a long process.

Mr. Lemass

The process is as long as it takes from the time that it starts. If you delay the starting of it, it will be so much longer. The process should be started anyway.

Mr. Keyes

The emergency will be over before you-get the extension.

Mr. Lemass

I appreciate that it will take some time. I often thought that the problem which arises in the case of the City of Cork, where a large part of the city's housing activities were carried out outside the city boundary and a large number of the city workers moved outside the boundary, could and should have been resolved before this by an extension of the boundary. I could not understand what is the difficulty in proceeding in that way. It is true, of course, that these workers are not now at any disadvantage, because the city authorities have decided to supplement the assistance they receive from the State to the extent that the total amount they get is, in any event, what they would get even if the boundary had been extended to include them.

I do not want Deputies to lose sight of the problem which would arise so long as there is any differentiation between one part of the country and another in administering a service of this kind. I do not think there is much likelihood of the Government's deciding to extend this scheme to rural areas at present. I think that the special circumstances which seem to require exceptional treatment for the urban areas will continue, and in fact will become more noticeable as time goes on, for the duration of the emergency. However, we can discuss this general question of the adequacy of our social services, and the possibility of or the need for extending them in one direction or another, on a more appropriate occasion. I have merely to report to the Dáil that this particular service, the food allowance service in urban areas, has been in operation, that it has provided considerable relief in the areas in which it has been in operation, and that, judging by the representations made to the Department, no real administrative problems in connection with it have arisen.

Vote put and agreed to.

Vote reported and agreed to.