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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 17 Jul 1942

Vol. 88 No. 8

In Committee on Finance. - Appropriation Bill, 1942—All Stages.

Leave granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to apply certain sums out of the Central Fund to the service of the year ended on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-one, and the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-three, and to appropriate to the proper supply services and purposes the sums granted by the Central Fund Act, 1942, and this Act.—(Minister for Finance).
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

There are just two or three matters which I should like to raise. The first one is in connection with the situation that has been precipitated in Cork, where prosecutions have taken place against bacon curers for purchasing pigs at a price beyond the scheduled price. In consequence of the prosecutions and of the shortage of pigs, those factories are closing within the next week or ten days.

I have had a communication from the bacon section of the Transport Workers' Union saying that they are making representations to the Ministries of Agriculture and Industry and Commerce to convene a conference in Dublin early next week, at which representatives of the workers would attend to discuss ways and means of avoiding the serious position that would be caused by the closing of those factories. It is clear from that information, and from the particulars given here in recent weeks that the numbers of killings of pigs have gone down from 21,000 to about 6,000, that there is a very serious situation in respect of the pig industry in the country. It is not likely that it will be remedied in a short period. The responsibility of the Ministry with regard to that matter is very grave. I have dealt with this before, and there is no necessity for rehearsing what was said, but certainly during the Recess it is advisable that the Government should pay a little attention to the problem which is facing the workers in those various establishments, and to the loss that has been sustained by agriculturists by reason of the peculiar policy which has been adopted with regard to this industry. They should review generally the agricultural situation in the country to see what can be done to improve matters. I believe they can be improved. I believe there is a surplus of certain foodstuffs in the country which should be available for pig production.

The second point which I desire to raise is the price at which turf is sold in this country at the present time, and the quality of that turf. I do not intend to go into that to any extent, except to say that 64/- a ton is a prohibitive price, and that the quality of the turf does not reflect any credit whatever upon the scheme.

The third matter which I want to raise is on the Vote which the Minister dealt with this morning, that is, personal injuries compensation for damage arising out of any action of the belligerents in or on this country. The Minister gave us last evening particulars of the compensation which the new scheme proposes for adults and children, persons under and over 18 years of age, and so on. He also informed us regarding a scheme that is in contemplation, but not yet finally adopted, for persons in the various voluntary services of one kind or another dealing with air-raid precautions, fire-fighting, and other matters of that sort. In the course of his statement the Minister said that the State was in this case faced with the problem of providing for what might be almost an unlimited liability. I cannot accept that statement. I think on reflection the Minister himself will admit that there is at least an exaggeration implied in the statement.

I would suggest to the Minister that there should be an early reconsideration of the sums which he read out here last night as being the basis of the proposals which the Ministry had in mind for dealing with those cases. I want to put to the House just one comparison in regard to this matter. There is in this year's Vote for personal injuries compensation an estimated sum of £25,000 for persons who have been injured by bombs or any action of the belligerents. In another part of the Estimates there is provision for a sum of £3,000 for A.R.P. and fire-fighting agencies of one sort or another in which people may have been injured. There is a total there of approximately £30,000. On the other hand, we look up the sum which has been provided in this year's Estimate for damage to property, and we find that the sum is £250,000. I do not intend to make any cheap comments upon the relative values of life and property but, obviously, if we are prepared to pay for property, if we admit the moral obligation on us to provide for the restoration of that property, surely the moral responsibility for providing for the lives that are in jeopardy is a greater one. We make no complaint, whatever, regarding the sum that has to be provided for property. It is quite true that property charge once dealt with is finished, and that the other is more or less a continuing charge for a number of years. The disparity between the two provides even for that.

The second point concerns persons who give service either in A.R.P. or fire-fighting services. In these cases a scheme for providing compensation could very usefully and legitimately have been formulated before any liability whatever fell upon the State. It is inconceivable that months and months after the occasion arose for providing compensation we have not yet decided on a scheme. In these cases there is no justification whatever for not putting a person into even a better position than he was in prior to an accident. In other words, if a man earned £6 a week prior to an accident which kept him from work, he should get £6 a week from the moment he met with the accident until he could take up his occupation again. Whatever medical or other expenses had to be incurred should also be provided. In connection with personal injuries compensation, I suggest that there should be at once an addition of 33? per cent. to the figures given. The amount may be considerable, but, even with that addition, if bears comparison favourably for this country from the point of view of its economy with that in operation in Great Britain.

The third matter concerns compensation for the destruction of property. In the case of persons living on weekly wages it is very wrong to have assessors valuing any articles, whether common to the persons' homes or to themselves, by inquiring how much was paid for them. Assuming that articles cost £5, £10 or £20—and I suppose that none of them have many articles value for more than £20—it is indefensible to deduct a certain amount for wear and tear. These articles were going to last for a lifetime and the owners have not books and accounts to indicate what was allowed for depreciation. They simply paid for these things and when forced out of their homes at a moment's notice—perhaps blown out—the least the State can do when giving them houses is not to grudge the few extra years' advantage they would have from articles which had already undergone four or five years' service.

It may be that the Minister is faced with the usual Departmental objections as to the necessity for bearing in mind the increasing cost of running the State. There are certain services that the emergency has imposed upon us which do not permit of that peculiar and, in present circumstances, antediluvian method of dealing either with compensation for property or to persons. It is not wise in these cases to say that we have to be careful. Remember that for five years we have shown an entire disregard in the way of balancing our accounts. No one knows that better than the unfortunate people who are at present without a roof over their heads, or short of wearing apparel. They know what our indifference has been towards balancing the accounts of the State. The extra sum that would be given those concerned would not upset anybody's purse, much less that of the State. The House generally would prefer that we should put on one side of the account a sum of extra consideration by reason of the pain and suffering that has fallen upon these people by the disaster, and that we should approach consideration of it rather from the point of view of Christian charity than that of strict accountancy which is so prevalent in most Governmental activities.

I want to make it clear to the House that whatever discussion takes place on the Appropriation Bill takes place either on the Second or the Fifth Stages, but not on both.

The Leader of the Opposition has very properly referred to the very serious situation that is now about to arise owing to the shortage of pigs, and the unemployment that will result in the bacon factories. I told the House nine months ago that something like that was going to materialise if that situation was allowed to develop, and now it has come upon us. Grave as the unemployment situation is going to be in Limerick, Tralee and other bacon manufacturing centres, I ask the House to realise what it means to small farmers in the West of Ireland. I do not know if the Minister for Finance and his colleagues realise that, of the people who come into my shop in Ballaghaderreen, at least 70 per cent. eat no fresh meat at all. They eat nothing but salt bacon. They do not eat salt bacon because they are poor. Salt bacon is not a cheap form of food. They eat it because it is their accustomed diet, and their domestic arrangements are moulded for the proper consumption of that form of meat. They have no facilities for cooking fresh meat except by frying or boiling. If hard salt bacon is completely taken out of the diet of these people—as I fear is going to be the case before Christmas—a situation will obtain west of the Shannon that will lead to an acute crisis. There is no reason for undue alarm but, at the same time, I think it would be less than my duty if I did not warn the Minister that a crisis of real magnitude will arise if there is no bacon available. People who normally have rashers for breakfast take them as a semi-luxury and could get along without them. I do not know how far the curing of all bacon as hard salt bacon would minimise the shortage. Something should be done along such lines.

More than once in the last three months I asked a Parliamentary Question here as to when there would be a public inquiry, as required by statute, into the wreck of an Irish ship off the Antrim coast. The Minister stated some weeks ago that a public inquiry would be held some time by the Department of Industry and Commerce. No further steps have been taken to that end, and I suspect that machinations are proceeding to try to prevent its being held. I am, therefore, under the painful public duty of alleging publicly that the master of that vessel was drunk and incapable in his berth when that vessel struck the Antrim coast.

The individual concerned has no opportunity to defend himself against that allegation.

I want the Minister to provide him with the opportunity to which he is entitled by holding the public inquiry under the auspices of the Department of Industry and Commerce which should have been held three months ago.

Is not the Deputy pre-judging the person concerned?

I can get no other means of directing attention to the matter but by alleging a gross public scandal. I want to know the circumstances under which that ship went to sea. It may seem that this is done by me without due form. I make this allegation because I want to see the conduct of the management which put that man in charge of an Irish ship and of Irish seamen examined. It is all very well for us here to take the philosophical view, put it on the long finger and say that we shall wait for the Minister to act. In the meantime, the lives of Irish seamen may be put in peril. If the Minister had acted promptly, as it was his duty to do there would have been no necessity for me to raise the matter in this form. I have twice raised it without any suggestion of the nature of the anxiety I felt.

That anxiety is natural but I am concerned about the position of the man who is charged by the Deputy and cannot reply.

An inquiry can be set up to-morrow morning and that matter can be investigated. I know of no other means by which I can get this matter brought to a head. My concern is for Irish seamen who are going to sea in Irish ships.

Would not the Deputy consider pressing the Minister on the promise he made to hold an inquiry?

I have done that and no other course is open to me but to force on the Minister, by publication of the facts, the necessity for carrying out his promise to hold an inquiry forthwith. If I am proven wrong. I shall be glad to express my profound regrets and apologies to all concerned as publicly as I have now spoken. There is provision made in the statute for the holding of public inquiries. There was a clear duty on the Minister to hold an inquiry in this case. It seems to me that there was a clear duty on the management and the master of the ship to demand an inquiry, once the ship had struck the coast in the way it did, so that the prima facie appearance of negligence might be disposed of, if there were extenuating circumstances. That public inquiry has not been held and I allege that, at this moment, attempts are being made to prevent its being held. I want to warn those who are making these attempts that, as long as I am in this House, they will not succeed. The inquiry will be held and the responsibility of the management that allowed that situation to develop will be brought home. It is in view of these facts that I deem it my duty to mention the matter here.

The third matter I want to mention relates to censorship. I do not want to open up a debate on censorship, but I want to utter the warning in this House that I uttered before. If this House stands for the principle that the Censor can abuse his powers so as to steamroll the humblest Deputy of this House and prevent his views from legitimately being heard in the country, that precedent will subsequently be used to steamroll all political opposition. I fully sympathise with the temptation of persons who find themselves in profound variance with the views expressed to shake their heads and say: "Perhaps it was as well it was censored out of the papers, so as not to have disturbance." Make up your minds to this: that if Deputy Frank Aiken, Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures, once gets it into his head that, with the consent of Parliament, he can ruthlessly assail an individual Deputy, with the aid of the powers confided to him as Minister, you are only preparing your own destruction, because if you give that gentleman an inch he will take an ell. If you lead him to believe that the House will stand for that kind of base and shameful abuse of powers entrusted to him as trustee, he will use them sooner or later against the principal Opposition and against the Labour Party. When he does so use them, it will be too late to fight him. We still have our liberties preserved in some measure here. If we do not use them for one another's protection, the day will soon come when the Executive will be in a position to prevent you from using them for your own protection.

It is a pleasure to me to pass from the controversial to the non-controversial. I had recently to draw the attention of the Minister for Defence to the case of Mrs. McLoughlin, the widowed mother of the very gallant officer who lost his life in the tragedy of Glenmalure. On that occasion the Minister was good enough to say that he would review the circumstances of this case with a view to ascertaining whether anything could be done or not. Is the Minister for Finance in a position to forecast any legislative measure which would restore equity in this situation? Even though he be unable to announce the terms of any such legislation, if he were able to forecast that, on the House re-assembling, some measure would be introduced to meet the situation it would greatly relieve the present position of the bereaved lady. I know that, whatever the Government may find themselves in a position to do, their sympathy is quite as strong as mine in this case, and I trust that, in these circumstances, it may be possible for the Minister to give some indication of what he intends to do when the time comes.

Mr. Byrne

I avail of this Bill to ask, before the House adjourns for a considerable time, that the Minister state what proposals the Government have for the supply of ships to carry goods and necessary materials for the various trades here so that men in employment may be kept in that employment and those who are out of employment may be re-employed. We may not have an opportunity for some months to draw attention to unemployment conditions. In the City of Dublin, unemployment is rife at the moment. Down at the North Wall, one sees only two ships—one on the north side and one on the south side— whereas a few years ago there used to be 20 or 30 ships loading and unloading. The dockers are standing idle. Can the Minister assure us that efforts are being made to get one or two extra ships to bring in supplies so as to keep our men in employment? The Leader of the Opposition made reference to the compensation given for loss of life and property at the North Strand. I have protested against the inadequacy of the compensation for both. Will the Minister give us some idea as to when the corporation may hope to get the vesting order they applied for to take over the property there and to get on with the work? Will he also say when it is proposed to pay compensation to those who lost their property, so that they may get to work and provide employment? I suggest that the amounts the Government have provided for compensation are grossly inadequate, having regard to the sufferings of these people. I support Deputy Cosgrave's suggestion that the House should urge the Minister to give a 33 per cent. increase in the amount he has asked, in order to meet the difficulties and pay adequate compensation for injuries to persons, for loss of life and for loss of property.

At the moment I do not know the maximum amount that any person can get for injuries received. I have a case in point, where a girl on the North Strand was so badly injured that I earnestly hope she will get £5,000 or £6,000. She was a girl of 22 or 25 years of age, and her prospects are ruined for ever. Without mentioning the name, I may say that one side of her face was almost blown off. What surgery has done I do not know, but I mention the case in the hope that the Minister, when dealing with it, will see that adequate compensation is paid to her.

My principal reason for rising is to ask the Minister what the Government's definite proposals are for the unemployed and for those likely to become unemployed in the very early future on account of the scarcity of materials.

This Vote is availed of sometimes to ask a variety of questions on a variety of topics. If the Minister had had notice of the topics to be raised, he might have been in a position to give a satisfactory answer, but as these questions came to me in the course of this debate I am unprepared to give answers to most of them. Probably, many of them have been raised in a rhetorical way, not necessarily for answer now, or looking for information, or possibly for the purpose of giving publicity to the points to which Deputies wish to call attention. At any rate, some of the questions raised should be answered by the heads of the Departments concerned, and I regret I have not material available at present on which I could found answers. For instance, the prosecution of bacon curers in Cork, which Deputy Cosgrave raised, is something I am not in a position to deal with. I understand the whole question of pigs will be raised later on this evening, and if the Minister is here he will, no doubt, deal with that point. I have heard at home of the difficulty of buying bacon, but beyond that I have very little acquaintance with the subject.

We will talk about it later on.

I am sure the Deputy will, and at great length, as he usually does; and, if I may say so, not uninterestingly either. I am not an authority on the price or quality of turf, but I can say that my own experience—Deputy McGilligan gave his experience, in the debate last night, in regard to the quality of turf; and I suppose he is just about as much an authority as I am—is that I have seen turf supplied at home by our usual merchant, who used to supply coal, and it is good turf. People with a knowledge of turf may say that it is not the best; probably it is not, but it gives us a good fire, and I do not suppose there is much difference between it and the turf generally supplied in Dublin. I admit that it is dear but, speaking entirely as a tyro, it seems to me to be of decent quality and it gives a good fire.

The merchants knew they were supplying the Minister for Finance.

I do not believe they would bother going out to pick sods from the stack, even for the Minister for Finance. I would feel very complimented if I thought they did that, but I do not think it is likely to be true. As a soft-hearted person, I would like to be generous to people who have been injured. Deputy Cosgrave is in the same mood to-day. I am not saying he would not always be humane: I am sure he would be. However, in dealing with the cost of government and the expenditure by the Government, and the lavish generosity by the Minister for Finance to the services, Deputy Cosgrave has been far from complimentary at any time I have heard him speak here in recent years, and since I became Minister for Finance, in particular. The whole burden of his speech on this subject and of the speeches of his colleagues, particularly on the front bench, has been that the Government is the most extravagant that could occupy the office of government here. They say the Government is throwing out money with its two hands, placing a terrible burden on the taxpayers and on the farmers. Now, when it suits them, we hear the other side of the story. They ask why the Minister cannot be generous, why he cannot be openhanded and large-hearted and humane and give out generous compensation.

It is all very well for the Opposition: they can play this dual rôle with political profit to themselves. The Minister for Finance and the Government, however, have the responsibility for asking the taxpayers to foot the bill later on. I would like to be as generous as anyone else in this House to those injured, in the circumstances we had last year, when people were injured through bombs falling or exploding in the country and around the coast. I would like to be generous to the people in the voluntary services —the A.R.P. services, fire-fighting services, demolition squads, and so on. I would like to see them treated justly, if not generously. They have given voluntary service in times of danger and difficulty, and have often been at the risk of their lives. I would place as much value on the life of any individual, no matter how humble, as I would on any piece of property, relatively speaking. People who offer their services and risk their lives should be treated with every consideration. At the same time, we must measure what it is likely to cost, and then we have to come down to pounds, shillings and pence, and try to work out in money values how far we can go. You cannot compensate people adequately in money, if they are injured in such circumstances. You cannot ever restore a limb or an eye, or part of the face or figure to the type of person referred to by Deputy Byrne. It cannot be done. All you can do is to try to help them out by giving them some monetary compensation that, perhaps, will enable them to live.

Mr. Byrne

In comfort?

Relatively, in comfort. You cannot compensate them, but then it is a question of getting down to pounds, shillings and pence, and in the matter of compensation there has been the experience of the last war where, when it had to come down to a question of assessing these losses and injuries in money values, certain schedules were laid down. For instance, there were certain people in this country who gave services to the British in the last war and who suffered losses and injuries, and where there was a loss of a leg, or an arm or an eye, or where a limb was injured, or hurt in other ways, a schedule was laid down that they would be compensated to such-and-such an extent, for total incapacity or the relative amount of incapacity, as judged by the medical boards. I suppose we will have to have something of that kind this time also. The value, for instance, that would be put by a young lady on her appearance or her attractiveness— her possible value, let us say, without speaking disrespectfully, in the marriage market—might be put at a very high figure by the lady concerned. I do not want to delay on that topic. All I say is that, as Minister for Finance, I have to come down to pounds, shillings and pence, and some board will have to deal with these matters within the limits laid down— I will not, individually, be doing it— and I hope that the people concerned will be treated as generously as possible.

These schemes, as I said last night and as I said again this morning, for A.R.P., fire fighting and other services, are a long time in preparation—too long, I admit. There has been a great delay, but there were various reasons for that. However, I hope they will be published before very long.

Mr. Byrne

You promised them last November.

The schemes were prepared, I think, last September or October, and then it was thought; on examination, that they were not all they might be, and they were withdrawn and others are in process of being substituted in their stead. With regard to property claims, large numbers of these claims have already been settled, and settled to the satisfaction of the people concerned. I gave the figures last night, and I think the Deputy will find in the Official Report such other figures as he requires.

Deputy Cosgrave talked about the people who will be asked to show their accounts and their books when claiming value for lost property. They are not asked to do that. They are not asked to produce bills and books, but they may properly be asked to say the value they set on their furniture, and so on. After all, it must be remembered that the officials concerned have to remember that every act of theirs and every penny they spend is bound to be examined by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and by the Committee on Public Accounts. As Deputies know, the officials are severely cross-examined and have to account for every penny spent in that way, and the Minister also has to take responsibility. The officials have to be very careful about public money.

I do not know anything about the matter raised by Deputy Dillon, concerning the wreck on the Irish coast. I should like to say, however, that I think it was not a wise or prudent proceeding for the Deputy to make a charge in public against any man in the way the Deputy did here to-day. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has the safety of the men at sea just as much at heart as Deputy Dillon, or any other member of the House has, but to make a charge of that kind against a man in a responsible position—a charge that may not be true—may have the effect of ruining that man's career for the rest of his days, and I think it is a thing that Deputy Dillon ought not to have done. There are other ways of getting a remedy. Likewise, with regard to the Censor. Of course, the Deputy can make charges, and has often made plenty of charges, against the Censor, but the Censor is well able to answer for himself, and I do not think it is necessary for me to defend him. I shall only say that I believe his powers are properly used for the safety of the State and its people, and that he has no apology to offer to anybody.

Mr. Byrne

He has not interfered with Gussie Goose. That is the only thing he has not interefered with.

The question of unemployment has been discussed often during the session, and the matter is not one that is ever lost sight of. There is not much use in talking about the one or two ships that are in Dublin Harbour now, compared with the 20 or 30 that used to be there a few years ago. We must remember that there is a war on. I cannot answer Deputy Byrne about the vesting order, and will have to refer him to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health for information on that point.

Question put, and agreed to.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration, and passed.

This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution.

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