I wish to refer to the half-crown to which the farmers will be entitled when the war is over to buy fertilisers. Why should not the Minister reconsider that and give the half-crown on the present price of wheat and let the farmers all over the country buy their manures through the ordinary channels through which they have got them heretofore, such as the co-operative creameries or the local merchants? In Kilkenny there are several people who had been in the motor business but who then went in for farming. They took conacre, up to 30, 40 and 50 acres. There is one motor trader I could mention, Mr. Connolly. When the war is over he will be entitled to a number of coupons in respect of the number of barrels of wheat he has sent to the millers. These coupons for manures will not pass back to the man from whom he took the land. What is Mr. Connolly going to do with those coupons? It will be something like some years ago with the cattle coupons when schoolmasters and everybody else were selling them.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 30—Agriculture (Resumed).
Why does the Deputy say schoolmasters?
The producer did not get them.
I think the Deputy should not slander schoolmasters in that fashion.
No individual was mentioned.
It is a reflection on a very hard-working profession.
Other professions have been similarly attacked.
I do not think it should be done in this House.
I do not mean to insult the teachers' profession by any means, but I have positive proof that these people had cattle licences to dispose of, as well as other people, while the man who had fat stock for sale could not get them. I myself happened to be one of them. Instead of the half-crown coupons for manure after the war you should add it to the price given to the producer at the moment. It will be a great inducement to help those people to produce more wheat. I should like to know what are the intentions of the Government with regard to co-operating with the farmers in this gigantic task of producing more cereals and more produce of all kinds. Will the Government come to our assistance when we ask for this very necessary help? Will they give us the help of the Army during the harvest in view of the great scarcity of labour? I want to produce all the food I can and I will do it, but I want everybody else to do his share. We want everybody in this country to help and to co-operate. We want to see not alone a plentiful supply of food for our people but a surplus as well. Farmers and the farm workers alone cannot do that. There is more tillage than ever being imposed on us. Coupled with that, we have dairying and other things to attend to and the farmers and their families and workmen cannot be expected to work 18 hours out of every 24. I ask the Government to give us every help, aid and assistance they possibly can to tide us over this present emergency.
I understand that in England men are released from the Army to give very essential help in agriculture. In certain districts, where land is far away from a farmer's home, I understand the Army give their lorries to draw in the corn. That country is at war. We are not at war with anybody and I hope we never will be. Will the Government give the farmers the use of these lorries in cases where there is a justifiable reason for asking for them? At the county committee of agriculture recently in my county a resolution was passed asking the Department concerned, in view of the circumstances this year, which was an abnormal season, to billet 60 or 100 soldiers in every parish, so that if the farmers required help these soldiers could be placed in charge of a sergeant or corporal and allotted to the different farmers. The sergeant or corporals could supervise the men and see that they were giving satisfaction. These men would be as well treated as the farmers themselves. That should be done during the next harvest so that farmers will have no difficulty in getting the required labour. It would be better than trying to get the Department to have soldiers released for this work.
Then there is the question of boots for farmers and agricultural workers, that is a very essential matter. I do not blame the Department of Supplies for everything because, so far as the civic spirit of the people is concerned, I think there is a great laxity. The Minister for Supplies yesterday stated that he had no definite information with regard to exorbitant prices being charged for such boots. About a week ago I read in the newspapers that a resolution was passed at the Kerry County Committee of Agriculture pointing out that strong boots for farmers and labourers were costing £4 5s. 0d. per pair in Kerry. That resolution was sent to the Department concerned. That should be ample proof to the Minister that that racket is being carried on, because a responsible body like that would not make such a statement if they were not able to stand over it. Considering that the price of hides is fixed, I do not see why these racketeers should be allowed to make such huge profits out of people who are the lowest paid in the State.
I urge the Government to give us all the help and assistance they can in the coming season. We are satisfied to co-operate and to work early and late to produce all the food required.
Farmers have been described by some individuals as being a lazy crowd. We are not. Farmers are not lazier than any other section of the community. The farmers arc satisfied to work and will work. We have stood between the nation and starvation. We are ready to make even greater sacrifices, but we are definitely entitled at least to the cost of production and a decent reward for our labours. The unfortunate workers who co-operate with us are also entitled to a decent return for their labour. They are the worst paid class in the State. I ask the Government to give us all the help and assistance they can. They can do that by giving us the reasonable prices which we demand and by giving the co-operation of the Army when required. If that is done I do not think we will have any reason to dread the spectre of starvation.
There has been criticism in this debate with regard to the mistakes made by the Department in the past and with regard to planning for the future. The Minister has got so much criticism and advice that I am not going to add anything further to it. If the Minister will give consideration to the advice given to him and learn from the mistakes of the past, there is no danger of his making any mistakes even if he is Minister for the next 50 years. I want to get some information with regard to certain matters. I am not satisfied with the reply given to my question with regard to wheat seed. There may be sufficient wheat seed, but I am afraid the quality will not be up to the mark.
I should like to get a definite pronouncement from the Minister on that matter, because people down the country have got panicky with regard to it, particularly in County Cork. At a recent meeting of the Cork County Committee of Agriculture responsible members who knew what they were talking about stated that wheat all over the county was bad and not fit for seed; that the oats was eaten up with rust and not fit for seed, and that potatoes were so damaged, diseased and blackened that they were not fit for seed. I want the Minister to see that there will be a sufficient quantity of reliable seeds which will yield well for wheat, oats, barley and potatoes.
With regard to the regulation for the compulsory growing of wheat, I think it is belated. It should have been made years ago because some people were getting away with it and doing better out of other cereals. I am, afraid, however, that it will not meet the situation. The suggestion I make is that you should have a regional survey. There are areas in this country where you have virgin soil which could grow wheat well which has barely been touched. In the area where I live there have been intensive wheat growers for generations. With the lack of artificial manures, our land is worn out and exhausted and will not grow wheat. It is unfair that such areas should be compelled to try to produce a crop that will not pay for the cost of production, as the yield will be poor, while there are other areas throughout the country of rich virgin soil which have not been growing wheat for generations. That rich land is fit to produce wheat of sufficient quantity, with good quality and good yield. I hope that any inspector the Minister sends out will see that wheat is not sown on land which is not suitable for it. The Leader of Clann na Talmhan, Deputy Donnellan, said that wheat yield in Galway was as low as two barrels to the acre. Surely, any inspector would be wrong who would allow a man to sow wheat on land which would yield only two barrels to the acre? It would be a waste of valuable land and valuable seed, and a waste of time and energy on the part of the man sowing it. That land, however, would grow barley, oats or rye. Inspectors should be advised to see that no man grows wheat on land which will give only a yield of two or three barrels to the acre.
Another matter which must get attention is that of artificial manures. In reply to a question of mine yesterday, the Minister for Supplies was not very hopeful that we would get very much superphosphate, which is one of the things we want. To meet that situation, I have here time and time again advocated that some campaign be inaugurated by the Department to make available more sand and seaweed. The sand is there, it comes in with every tide; and the seaweed grows wild every year. We have no potash in this country and can get none but what we get from the British Government for flax-growing. Potash is necessary for potato cultivation. You can get the kelp and thereby give us the potash. I do not see why that was not undertaken long ago. In the last Great War, we had kelp all over the country. I think that was taken up by some individual concern: I do not know whether it was inspired by any Government Department. At the moment, when there is a scarcity of manure, I do not see why the Department should not get their backs into this question of the drying and burning of seaweed for kelp production. They should see if it is possible to have the seaweed gathered at a time when it could be transported inland to aid in the production of beet, mangolds and turnips, thereby putting the land in heart and condition to grow cereals the following year. I am tired advocating that in this House.
In regard to sea sand, there are places along our southern seaboard, at Bantry Bay and Glandore Harbour and elsewhere, where you have the dredged sand. According to my information, that is valuable manure, though you put down very little because it is rich in nitrogen and other phosphates. When we cannot get phosphate rock from Africa, and have not boats to bring it from America, I commend this as being as valuable and more easily got. It is much more valuable than the Clare phosphate, of which we know nothing and about which no Deputy can get information, as to how much is there and of what value it is. The Bantry and Glandore sand has been tried and tested for generations: everyone knows its value and what it means to the farmer who puts it on his land. It would be better to sink money in an enterprise of that sort and have this sand dredged and shifted through the country.
The railway company raised the price for cartage of sand some time ago, but representations were made by all the Deputies from West Cork to the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Industry and Commerce, and the company very graciously brought down the prices then lower than ever before. I am glad that is the case. As a result, you have cheap transport by the railway company for the carriage of this sand inland to wherever it is required, and I commend it to the Minister for his consideration, in the hope that immediate action will be taken about it. If we cannot get something in the line of artificial manures and phosphates, the only thing we have to fall back on is the sea sand and the lime and seaweed. It is there for the taking, in limitless supply, and I suggest that the Minister take steps immediately to see that some of it is made available.
I would like to have some information in regard to the Flax Development Board. I do not know what its functions are and have not heard whether there is any money available for them to do anything. They sent out notices to new flax-growers, that they were giving grants for the building of dams for steeping flax. I do not know what the amount of the grant was for the making of a flax pond to hold two acres of flax. I think a big number of applications were sent in, but my information in West Cork is that very few grants were sanctioned. I do not know where the board is getting the money from. So far as I can see, there is nothing in the Estimates for this work. There are also grants for the building of scutch mills to prepare flax, to scutch it into fibre. That is a very commendable action—to get scutch mills under way when there is a big area under flax; but I do not see anything at all about it, except some £700 for the improvement of scutch mills, and that £700 is in loans. I would like to know if there is a grant available for the erection of scutch mills.
I want to know from the Minister where the money is coming from. Common rumour has it, amongst flax growers in all parts of this country, north and south, that the bonus or subsidy given by the British—I do not know what the Minister called it yesterday, but I say that it is the British Government that gave it, anyway, because they have control of everything, and it was no individual body that gave the bonus or subsidy, but the British Government—to the Eire growers of flax, amounted to 2/6 a stone, whereas the Eire flax grower only got 1/6 a stone. I should like to know if that is the case, because as a result of a common rumour, flax growers in Monaghan, Donegal, Cavan and other flax-growing districts have that in their heads, and it cannot be got out of their heads. Therefore I should like to know from the Minister whether or not that is so, and I should also like to know, if 2/6 a stone was given by the British Government to the Eire flax growers, what has become of the balance. Of course, the Minister's reply yesterday on this matter was very vague, but if he could give us a definite statement on the matter it would ease all our minds, because common rumour has it that it is out of that balance the grant for the erection of scutch mills, the making of ponds, and so on, is being made available. I hope that the Minister, when he is replying, will make that matter clear, and so ease all our minds.
Another point to which I wish to refer is the subsidy that has been granted to the Dublin early potato growers. I think, Sir, that that is a matter than can be discussed on this Estimate, since there is a subsidy of from £3 to £9 given in the Supplementary Estimate.
Yes, that Vote is being taken; also the Subsidies for Agricultural Produce. The three run together.
Well, there are other growers of early potatoes besides the Dublin growers, and they also suffered as a result of the control of prices this year. The Department sent out a circular recently to aH growers of early potatoes—not exactly promising them compensation, but I think that the Minister said yesterday that compensation will be provided for those who suffered losses as a result of not being able to market their early potatoes. I think the Minister said yesterday that they have now decided to grant compensation to growers of early potatoes in the Dublin area who have suffered losses, but I should like to point out that there are growers of early potatoes in other parts of the country who have suffered losses, and particularly in my own area. In my area, we were the pioneers in the growing of early potatoes in this country. There were 200 tons of early potatoes shipped from the Clonakilty area— from Courtmacsherry—and the price paid to the growers was £13 or £14 a ton. Surely, the Minister knows that you cannot produce a crop of early potatoes at that price. The Dublin grower, with the bonus or subsidy, has got £24 a ton in one week and £22 a ton in another week. That is the regulation, I understand, although my figures may not be quite correct. I am putting in a plea for the growers of early potatoes in my neighbourhood, who shipped 200 tons at £13 or £14 a ton because they could not keep the potatoes, and I think that they should get the same subsidy as the Dublin grower is getting for the potatoes that he shipped. What I want to impress on the Minister is this: that if the man who did not dig his potatoes at all is to be compensated for not digging them but for holding them because it would not pay to dig them, then the man who dug his potatoes and exported them, and who only got £13 a ton—the fixed price—is surely as much entitled to a bonus or subsidy for the losses he incurred by doing so. I hope that these people will get consideration from the Minister, and they are certainly entitled to it.
Now, coming back to the question of tillage, the great trouble with regard to tillage that I see, is the lack of machinery and labour, and I want to appeal to the Minister to recruit labour immediately for work on the land. Let them be men or women but it is essential that labour should be recruited for work on the land. I have it on reliable information that the women farm workers in England at the present time are as good as the men, and are doing their part well. We want them to work on the land, but I should like to point out to the Minister that there is no use getting us workers just at the time when the work has to be done right on the spot. Such workers are no good to us then, and we would rather not have them work for us at all than run the risk of having them damage the crops through inexperience.
Such workers should be put on the land in time for us to be able to give them the necessary training, such as in the thinning out of beet, turnips and mangolds, and so on. Let them be put on the land in sufficient time beforehand, and we will give them the necessary experience and feed them. I think the Government should take on the work of supplying labour for the farms. Casual workers are no good to us if they have not training and experience, and therefore some provision should be made to have the workers on the land——
Is the Deputy advocating conscription of labour?
——before the harvest comes, so that they could be properly trained and given experience of their business. That would be a great help. With regard to machinery, in view of the intensive tillage drive that we have now, and which will probably have to be more intensive, how are we going to get the machinery that is necessary, or parts for replacement? The manual labour is not there to do the work, and if we cannot get machinery it will be impossible for us to carry on. In the case of tractor parts, plough parts, and so on a good deal of machinery is growing old, and those parts cannot be replaced, and, as Deputy Dillon said yesterday, I hold that all machinery and machinery parts should be allowed to come in to this country absolutely free of all duties, and also that the farmers should be permitted to get them at first cost.
The great trouble on the land is how to keep going: how to shoe the horses, how to keep the carts or the harness in condition, and how to keep our men properly shod and clad. I think that one of the principal things that should be done for agriculture is to see that all the requirements of the workers on the land should be met before the requirements of those who are better off, better situated, and living under better conditions. The farmer has to be out in all sorts of weather, wet or dry, hail, rain or snow, Sundays and every other day of the week. Labour on the land does not stop on a Saturday evening. The farmer has to keep on at his work on Sunday morning and Sunday night as well as every other day in the week, and he has to be out under all sorts of conditions. Therefore, proper boots and clothing should be provided so as to safeguard the health of the workers on the land. Then, when it comes to a question of horses, carts, and so on, the farmer should be given first preference in the matter of providing the necessary timber and nails, and the iron for shoeing the horses or shoeing the wheels of the carts, because if, as a result of the lack of machinery and the wherewithal to keep things going, the farmer is unable to produce, then everybody else in the community suffers. His should be the first interest in this crisis and provision should be made to give him everything he requires at the real cost price.
A number of Deputies dealt with the question of feeding wheat to animals. I have no experience of that. It is very hard for me to doubt the statements of those who mentioned the matter; possibly they are right, but at the same time I resent the charge. I think it is unfair to attack the whole agricultural community because an individual here and there may have resorted to this practice. I think the agricultural community should not be condemned for the misdeeds of an individual here and there. As I say, I resent the charge because the farmers as a class are as patriotic and are as anxious to do their bit for the State as any other class, even more so. The farmer sees the situation that is facing those who are not as well catered for as himself in the matter of supplies, and he is anxious to conserve supplies. I think it should not go out from this. House that fanners in general are feeding wheat or flour to animals. I do not like to hear such an accusation. If one or two have done it, that is no reason why we should be all condemned. We are willing and anxious to do our work, and we want the help and guidance of the Department and its inspectors. We want the inspectors not to be too harsh on people who are trying to do their best, and to be civil to the people. I am told that some of them are inclined to be harsh, severe, strict, and, if I may say so, uncivil— inclined not to help the farmer, but to hinder him in his work. I hope that there will be an end of that, and that when the tillage inspectors and other inspectors go out, they will be nice to the people, that instead of being gruff and sour they will be civil and help the people in every way. If the farmer is treated in the proper way and not rubbed against the grain, you will find that he is a very willing and helpful co-operator.
A number of other matters which have been dealt with time and again in this House, such as the Pigs and Bacon Commission, have again been referred to by various Deputies, but I shall not deal with them now. There is just one other matter in regard to feeding stuffs to which I should like to call the Minister's attention. That is the absence of concentrated foods such as linseed cake. I should like to know from him if any experiments have been carried out in connection with flax-seed for the extraction of oil for feeding purposes alone. I am now referring to the non-fibre-producing flax. I should like to know if any of that has been grown in this country or if any experiments have been carried out in that connection.
I remember when I was dealing with flax many years ago in the Department of Agriculture, there was a variety of seed produced in Canada which grew to the height of about ten or 12 inches. It was a non-fibre-producing type. It could be cut with a machine and yielded, as far as I remember, about 23 cwts of seed to the acre. Flax which is grown for the production of fibre will not yield more than four or five cwts. to the acre. I should like to know if the Minister has any information about this flax or whether any experiments have been carried out in connection with it, because there is a definite shortage of food for fattening cattle. I understand that this flax can be grown in poor marshy land that will not grow wheat, or perhaps oats or barley or any other cereal. If it could be grown in the poorer areas where no other cereals can be grown and if it yields, say, a ton to the acre, it would develop a new industry in this country. It would provide cattle feeders with this valuable commodity, linseed oil, and linseed cake. I should be glad to know if any inquiries have been made as to the possibility of cultivating it in this country or if any experiments have been carried out. I know it is a Canadian seed, and I cannot give the Minister the name of it at the moment. It would be a great advantage to this country if it could be grown here.
The efforts of all of us at this particular time should be directed, not alone to trying to get an increased acreage, but to trying to get increased production. I listened to Deputy O'Donovan a moment ago telling the Minister that he should accept the advice given to him during this debate. I have sat here during most of the debate and I am afraid I have to say that I did not hear much constructive criticism. Take the speech of Deputy Fagan, for instance. Yesterday most of us sat here for about one and a quarter hours and we listened to a speech in which he told us he was managing his own farm and other farms. In the case of one particular farm he told us the owner lost £90. If the way in which he managed the farm was anything like the way he delivered his speech, it is no wonder that the owner who had him employed as manager lost £90. The Deputy had some criticism to offer about scrub bulls and the desirability of getting rid of them. I think that scrub of every description should be got rid of; I think that scrub farmers should be got rid of.
The position as regards most of the farms to which the Deputy referred is very peculiar. Those of us who travel from the West of Ireland to Dublin week after week and who look at those farms, see oats stacked on them still. My opinion about oats that is stacked in that way is that if you do not get it into the haggard as quickly as possible you are a very bad farmer and there is laxity somewhere. I do not think that in the Midlands a real effort is being made at all at farming from the productive point of view. The bullock is still the big idea and the intention of the farmers there seems to be to continue that. I urged here last year very strongly the taking over of lands that were not being worked properly. Deputy Fagan said: "If you give us a subsidy in Meath of £10 an acre, we will produce potatoes." I would say to the Minister in that connection: "If you give us, the farmers in the West, the land in Meath, we will produce potatoes without any subsidy." That is one way to get at this problem. If they have too much land or too much tillage to do, give that land to people who are prepared to till it and to help out the nation at a time like this. Give it to the farmers of the West who are living on the 50/- to £5 holdings and they will get over that difficulty.
I urged last year, and indeed I have been urging since I first entered this House, that the way to get over problems such as that is to do away with the 1,000-acre and 500-acre farms, make them smaller, and give them to the people who are prepared to work them and produce food. Bullocks are all right and important in their way, but the food that the people require is the most important thing of all and I do not think we can emphasise that too much.
I am afraid I cannot agree with the Leader of the Clann na Talmhan Party that the farmers in the West of Ireland are so hopeless that they produce only two barrels of wheat per acre.
Definitely that is not the case. I happen to know the area in which Deputy Donnellan lives, perhaps just as well as he does. I know that there are farmers who may have got only two barrels, per acre, but we must realise there are scrub farmers everywhere. As against that, there are farmers who got only two barrels to the acre because the weather was against them and their corn was lost. That was no fault of theirs. But it would not be right to say that all the farmers in the West can produce only two barrels per acre. There are many farmers there who got much more than that.
I think the suggestion that the Leader of the Clan na Talmhan Party made here in connection with the taking over of land by the Department is not one that should be adopted. He advocated the taking over of farms by the Department and the bringing in of tractors. I advocate the taking over of farms, but I would not favour the Department coming in with tractors. I advocate the giving of farms to the people who are prepared to till them. These people will till them without the Department coming in with tractors.
The biggest problem we are up against in the West of Ireland is that the people who have the land and do not want to till it prefer to set it in conacre, and the prices they charge for that conacre are simply killing the men who are trying to produce food. I suggest that the Minister should fix a price on conacre land. There would be no difficulty in doing that. It can be done in two ways. At the moment we have scheduled areas for the production of wheat, and we can take these areas and fix the price in that way. We could also fix it on the basis of the valuation of the holding.
In some instances there are farmers paying £10 or £12 an acre for conacre and one can realise how difficult it is for those men to make anything out of the land. I have heard of farmers with 70, 80 and 100 acres asking for increased prices for their lettings. There is no reason why the man who takes conacre and tries to produce food for the people should be mulcted in such heavy charges as £10 or £12 an acre. It is time that that practice was stopped. That is the biggest problem we have to face in that part of the country.
Last year on this Estimate I suggested that the farmers in the West of Ireland should get extra supplies of manure because of the inferior quality of the land. I think special consideration should be given to the poorer land in the West of Ireland, and I think the Minister could help by way of an extra supply of manures. There is one matter in this connection that the Department could usefully investigate—I do not know whether they have investigated it, or to what extent they have carried out experiments. There have been many references to artificial manures, but there has not been any reference to humus, and I think it is time that serious consideration was given to it. Experiments have already been carried out with reference to humus. Messrs. Guinness have carried out experiments in Cong and I believe that the results were exceptionally good. I wonder if the Department have experimented with humus with the object of finding out whether we can convert our weeds and rubbish and dirt into a very fine manure. If the officers of the Department have done anything in that connection, why have they not published leaflets, why have we not had information as to the result of their experiments? I would like this matter to be investigated by the Department and carefully examined, because it is very important.
There is another matter which could be dealt with by the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Supplies. Most of our mills are prevented from operating to full capacity because there is no coke or anthracite available. Owing to the bad weather conditions this year, immediately the wheat was threshed it had to be brought to the mills. I am aware that one of the best mills in the West, the Currandulla mills, have been held up for the want of anthracite. I think the Minister should see to it that arrangements are made so that there will be a sufficient amount of anthracite made available for that mill and for such other mills throughout the country as are in a similar position.
When we were discussing agriculture last February, I complimented the Minister on the farm improvements scheme. I mentioned then that I believed it was one of the best schemes ever put into operation on behalf of the farming community. It definitely is one of the best. On that occasion I advocated increasing the grants under that scheme, and I observe now that the increases have been given. I think it is one of the schemes that should be further developed because I believe every penny allocated to it is money very well spent. Under this scheme marvellous work is being done and it is making more land available for tillage every day in the week.
There is one matter that is causing farmers a great deal of worry, and that is the elimination of rabbits. Rabbits have done more destruction to corn in many districts than the bad weather did. Although rabbits are fetching a good price, and although thousands of them are being killed, they still seem to be very plentiful. I do not know what can be done to remedy the position, but I am sure that any advice the Department can give to the farmers will be welcomed.
I cannot compliment Deputy Killilea on his contribution to this debate. Deputy Fagan was at least constructive in his observations, but I cannot say the same of Deputy Killilea. I do not think Deputy Killilea can teach Deputy Fagan anything about farming; I imagine that the contrary would apply—that Deputy Fagan could teach Deputy Killilea much on the subject, and I think that is quite obvious from his speech. I think Deputy Fagan could teach Deputy Killilea a great deal about farming.
Deputy Beegan yesterday evening said that this country is likely to pass through a lean period when this war is over and he implored Deputies to refrain from demanding increased prices and increased subsidies for agricultural produce. I think increased prices and increased subsidies would be justified in present circumstances, although I am not in a position to say to what extent either the subsidies or the prices should be increased. I agree with Deputy Beegan that this country is likely to pass through a period of depression when this war is over. Every war is followed by a period of depression, and it is very unlikely that the aftermath of this war will be any different to the aftermaths of previous wars.
Deputy Dillon poured ridicule on much of the propaganda about post-war agricultural planning, and I agree with him. I think there is a great deal of nonsense talked about post-war agricultural planning. Deputy Dillon summarised the position very clearly and concisely when he stated that what farmers want is a free market for their produce, and all restrictions removed from the raw materials of their industry. Nevertheless, it is the duty of the Minister and of the Government to try to envisage what conditions will be like when this war is over, and what goods and commodities will be in demand. It is commonly believed that there will be a very widespread demand for livestock, particularly dairy stock, when war ends, and, in our tillage policy, during the coming years we should be careful to preserve our live stock and our dairy herds. Our tillage policy should be so adjusted and so organised as not to interfere in any way with the numbers of our live stock and dairy herds. In fact, I hold that it should be the object of Government policy during the coming years to increase the numbers of our live stock, and the numbers of our dairy herds, so that we will be in a position to take full advantage of the demand which, in my opinion, and in the opinion of people much more competent to judge, will exist when the war is over. There will then be an opportunity for farmers to reap what I might call a rich harvest, and the efforts of the Minister and the Government should be directed to ensure that we will be in a position to avail ourselves of that market when it is available.
Deputy Killilea stressed one point which I think is of very great importance, namely, that hitherto we have been concentrating on acreage rather than on productive capacity. If this war lasts for another two or three years, and it is quite possible that it may, the land of this country will be considerably exhausted. The Minister must envisage that possibility and try to arrange in the future to concentrate on production rather than on area of tillage. If we go on increasing the area of tillage at the rate at which it has been increased during the last four or five years, there is a grave danger that we will have to reduce our live stock very considerably, and above all that we will have to reduce the numbers of our dairy stock. Our agricultural economy is based on dairying, and must continue to be based on dairying, so that any policy designed to interfere with this economy is bound to damage the nation. Now that there is time to study that aspect of the problem I appeal to the Minister to get the experts of his Department to study it, to see if it is possible by means of organisation, by the utilisation of science, or by any other means available to limit as much as possible the area under tillage, while concentrating on producing the utmost amount of food.
I think it is generally agreed that the three factors which militated most against food production this year were (1) the weather, (2) labour and (3) lack of agricultural machinery. The Minister and the Government have been blamed for many things but we certainly cannot blame them for the weather. The weather was most unfavourable with the result that thousands of acres of grain were lost. I wonder what steps the Minister has taken to ensure that during the coming season the loss will not be on the same scale as it was during the past year. With the tillage area increased from 33? per cent. to 37½ per cent. is there not the danger, unless there is very keen organisation, that the loss of the grain crop may be on a much larger scale than last year? As Deputy O'Donovan pointed out, the labour problem is very serious. The magnitude of that problem will be greater during the coming season than in the past. Since the outbreak of war, and since the various tillage Orders were issued, there has grown up a great spirit of co-operation amongst farmers during the planting and sowing season, but the degree of that co-operation is limited to a great extent by weather conditions. Notwithstanding that co-operation there is in many parts a very acute shortage of labour. How the Minister is going to overcome that difficulty I do not know, but I am anxious that he should tell the House what steps it is proposed to take to meet the difficulty, and to ensure that labour will be available so that no grain will be lost, as it was lost during the past few years. There is the very serious danger that there will be a loss of food for the nation as a whole.
I want to refer briefly to the question of seed wheat. Deputy Morrissey dealt with it on the first day of this debate. I want to point out that I know farmers in my constituency who sowed wheat, some of which I admit was the produce of the previous year's crop, and some of which was guaranteed seed, which did not germinate at all. The land had to be ploughed up subsequently and another crop sown. I am wondering if the technique of seed testing has been developed sufficiently to ensure that when grain is placed on the market as guaranteed seed it will germinate. Many farmers seem to have doubts about the technique of the seed testing methods of the Government, because it is the experience of many of them that seeds guaranteed to be up to the standard required by the Government, and sown in good land, did not germinate. That was the experience of some farmers last year. The Minister should see to it that special steps are taken to ensure that if seed is placed on the market, and is guaranteed to be up to the standard required by the Government, it is actually up to that standard. I do not wish to criticise those engaged in the difficult task of seed testing. It is quite possible that there is something wrong, that the standard is too low, that certain risks were taken or that seed not up to the standard was put on the market as being suitable for seeding purposes.
Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney referred to a type of disease which has appeared in the oat crop. I was not aware that it had appeared in Mayo but I knew that it had appeared in Sligo. I do not know what name is given to it. Some officials said that it was a form of rust. There was an abundant crop of straw from such seed but no grain in the hull. The disease is not very widespread, being confined to a few areas. I do not know the cause of it. One official told me that it may be due to the fact that certain Canadian oats were bought by the Government, and that seed happened to get mixed with native grain. Some officials thought that the disease was sea borne. Other officials, perhaps more experienced, told me that they believed it was due to the low germinating qualities of the seed and the low fertility of the soil.
Whatever the cause of the disease may be, it is a serious symptom in our corn-growing policy. I hope that the Minister will take steps to investigate the cause of it and that the farmers concerned will be advised what to do with the straw and the hull, or whatever is left of the grain. As I have said, the disease is confined to a few areas, but there is an ever-growing danger that, because of the lessening fertility of the soils, diseases of that kind may become quite common. I think that our scientists and our professors in Glasnevin should be asked to investigate this disease, particularly, and to take such steps as may be possible to prevent the possibility of the further spread of that and similar diseases amongst our grain crops.
Virtually all the other points I wished to make were effectively made by other Deputies, but there is one matter to which I should like to refer —the question of credit. Deputy Dillon said yesterday that the farmers were very well off. I agree that the majority of them are very well off at present, but the Minister will appreciate that a certain number of farmers will not be able to provide for the increased demands which will be made upon them this year. They will not be able, of their own resources, to provide the necessary additional horse or horses, or the additional machinery or pay the additional labour, if additional labour be available. The Minister should take some steps to assist these people in their difficulties. The number of such farmers is greater than most of us imagine. I know that there is a certain number of such people. As the Minister has made an Order which forces those people to till a larger area than they were obliged to till heretofore, he should come to their assistance to the fullest possible extent and provide them with money from some source to enable them to carry out the obligations of the Order. It takes a long time to obtain money from the Credit Corporation. Their technique is rather slow and cautious. Some of those people would, probably, be unable to obtain money from the commercial banks. The only alternative is for the Government to come to their assistance. If the Minister was able to make a sum of £24,000 available to the potato growers of County Dublin, he should be able to provide a sum of £50,000 or £100,000, or even more, to secure that farmers throughout the country will be able to carry out the obligations of the tillage Order.
Mr. Larkin rose.
The Chair has no apology to make for the order in which Deputies are called on. There seems, however, to be a certain amount of impatience manifested by some Deputies who have risen and have not been called upon. The debate is distributed as evenly and fairly as possible amongst the different Parties. For the information of newly-elected Deputies: four members of the Farmers' Party have intervened in this discussion, while only two members of the Labour Party have spoken. This explanation is made for the information of newly-elected Deputies who may not understand the procedure.
Mr. Larkin
I think that we all appreciate the fairness of the Chair. Some of us who represent industrial areas hesitate to enter into those domestic quarrels between the parties who produce most food—or who say they do. They talk about compulsion. I do not think that there is any compulsion in calling upon people who have the land to use it. Their only right to control of the land is usage. When a Deputy spoke about dividing the land, it occurred to me that he might have to go down to acre plots and what kind of farms would we have then? The proper form of farming is industrial farming which will, eventually, come to be the rule when the Labour Party gets control. These farming gentlemen have been talking for the past two days. One of them gets up and contradicts the other and yet they all claim to be farmers. Nobody knows anything about farming or agriculture but themselves but, if they are tested by the productive power of their labours, everybody will agree that they have failed in the very industry in which they are supposed to be authorities. One gentleman says that they should do this and the other that they should not do it. One Deputy says that farmers are almost on the verge of starvation, and the only Deputy who knows everything about everything says that the farmers are doing well, that they never did better. He knows because he is not only a farmer but supplies farmers. I do not often accept what Deputy Dillon says but, as regards the financial status of the farming class, I do accept his statement. It has been urged that hares should not be allowed to be exported because it would deprive the farmers of Cork of their little amusement. The political covenanter for East Galway wants to close down not only coursing but horse-racing and dancing.
It is a wonder he stopped at the cross-road pub—that he did not close that, too. I asked a Deputy who sat down a minute ago, Deputy O'Donovan, a question which he did not answer. He wants recruitment of labour but the keynote of the discussion during the past two days has been conscription of labour. One Deputy was generous enough to say that they do not pay their labourers a sufficient wage, that they ought to be more generous and bring them at least up to the level of the road workers. These are the gentlemen who tell you that their efforts are not appreciated. Deputy Hughes gave us a learned discourse on the acidities of the soil, but it is the acidities in the brain-matter of the farming class that require to be purified.
I do not desire to detain the House because I am waiting for the apologia of the Minister. No matter what the Minister would do, it would not please Deputy Dillon. No matter what anybody in this country would do it would not please that Deputy. Where a man's heart is, his mind is and, where his mind and heart are, he is present in spirit. We know where Deputy Dillon's mind and heart are. The Minister for Agriculture has the most responsible position in the Government. Nobody is going to challenge the assertion that the foundational value and economic basis of this country is agriculture. No sane man denies that, but it should be remembered that those who have the land obtained it not by their own exertion alone but by the agitation and sympathy of all sections in the 32 counties over a period of years. Practically all the plans for the taking over of the land from the landlords were initiated in the towns. If it were not for the town workers, the farmers would be in the same position of servitude as that to which they try to bring the agricultural workers and the town labourers.
One gentleman actually suggested that men should be made work on the land at a fixed rate of wages. Is it any wonder that the best men and women in the country, to the number of 110,000, have gone across to the other side in the last four years to cultivate the land and work in munition factories? Sixty per cent. of them came from the western and southern counties, and almost 82 per cent. from the agricultural areas. Why did those men and women break up their home life and go to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to work in factories where the belligerent Powers were pouring down death on them? Did they go for amusement?
In the name of common sense is there any humanity in the farmer's soul? We know what happened here in 1909 and 1913 when an attempt was made to help the farm labourer to get a large measure of life. We saw then how much the farmers loved the labourers. They shot them down like rabbits in the County Dublin because they asked for an increase in their wages from 8/- to 16/- a week. Is it not about time that we in this country, townsmen, farmers, research chemists, scientific men and manual labourers got together and tried to approach this problem in a human spirit, and stopped the foolishness that has been carried on in this House during the past two days?
There is no use in blaming the Minister for the bad weather or for this, that and the other. Let us blame him for the things that he is guilty of, for his sins of commission as well as his sins of omission, and let us deal with this in a businesslike way. What is the Minister guilty of? He has made mistakes and is going to make more mistakes. The Minister is a kindly, courteous gentleman who will accept everybody's statement and will then go behind the scenes and accept the advice of somebody who is not concerned in the matter at all, except that he wants his salary at the end of the year. I have approached the Minister myself on a number of occasions. I do not pretend to be an authority on agricultural matters, but I do suggest that I have read as much as any farmer in this House, and possibly know as much as they do, about the values of land, rotation of crops and the things that ought to be done in and around the farm. What can you do with a man who gets up and tells you that you do not want machinery on the land? He suggested the breaking up of 100-acre farms. I would make all farms 100-acre farms. I would haye many more 100-acre farms out of the 12,000,000 arable acres of land we have. How are we utilising these 12,000,000 acres of land at the moment? We are not doing one-fourth of what we should be doing with them. I wonder how many Deputies have read what Professor Mackay, one of the greatest authorities on land utilisation, has written on that subject. He was a Scotsman who lived amongst us for many years. What notice has been taken of what he has written and of what has been written on the subject by hundreds of other men? I suggest that there are many men in this country outside the farming community who do know something about land utilisation. There is something to be learned on that subject from outside countries.
What can one think in this 20th century when a learned graduate of the university gets up and says that we do not want to plan? Suppose a man wants to build a house, will he not want a plan? He will not throw it together. There is no country in the world that needs more to plan ahead than we do. The stupidity of this nation is that it has never planned ahead. When we went out in revolution we did not know what we were going to revolt about. There is no use in moving on the basis of emotionalism without knowing what your objective is.
The Deputy might move to report progress in order to afford an opportunity of fixing the hour of to-day's adjournment.
Mr. Larkin
I move to report progress.