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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 Feb 1944

Vol. 92 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £2,050 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1944, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 & 10 Geo. 5, c. 58, and No. 34 of 1928), including certain Grants-in-Aid.

The additional sums which the Dáil is now being asked to provide are in respect of travelling expenses, labour, and grants for private planting. A sum of £2,200 is required for the completion of a census of standing timber which the Forestry Division is conducting on behalf of the Department of Supplies and the Department of Industry and Commerce. The work, which involves the examination of every woodland in the country over two and a half acres in extent, has proved more difficult and laborious and has called for much more travelling than was anticipated, but it is now nearing completion and will furnish valuable information of the amount and quality of the remaining stocks of timber and firewood in the country. The provision under the sub-head involved—sub-head B.—for the current year was £5,100 and the expenditure to the end of December last was £5,771. It is estimated, therefore, that an additional sum of £2,200 will be required to meet the total expenditure for the year.

Under sub-head C (2) of the Vote, which provides for the planting of State forest lands and the upkeep of the plantations, an additional sum of £16,000 is required. When the original provision was made it was anticipated that, owing to the shortage of rabbit netting and other fencing materials, it would not be possible to complete a planting programme this winter in excess of 2,000 acres. It has, however, been found possible, by lifting old wire from plantations which are now reasonably safe from serious attacks by rabbits, to increase the planting programme to approximately 4,000 acres for the year. Furthermore, following the recent rise in the minimum wages of agricultural workers the rates of pay of forestry labourers have been increased as from 7th instant by 4/- per week and additional money is required to meet this extra charge. There are approximately 1,430 forestry labourers employed at present. The expenditure on labour during the current year over and above the amount voted last year is estimated at £19,000, but the balance of £3,000 will be found from savings on other sub-divisions of this sub-head of the Vote.

The third sub-head involved in this Supplementary Estimate is sub-head D, under which provision is made for the payment of grants to persons undertaking planting operations on their own lands. It is extremely difficult in framing the Estimate for this sub-head to forecast, with any pretensions to accuracy, the area in respect of which such grants may be claimed. Claims are paid in some cases in respect of lands planted prior to any application for a grant. In fact, the excessive expenditure which has been necessary this year is in respect of areas planted several years ago, and in respect of which claims were not made until after the commencement of the current financial year. As a setoff against the additional expenditure for which provision is now requested, it is clear that increased sales of timber and firewood will bring in considerably more than was at first estimated. These increased receipts will probably amount to about £17,000, so that the net additional amount which the Dáil is being asked to provide under the Forestry Vote for the year 1943-44 is only £2,050.

In connection with the last matter to which the Minister referred, namely, planting by private owners, there are two questions which I should like to put to the Minister. When a plantation has been cut down and is being replanted, is a grant available? I always understood that a grant was available only when entirely new land was to be planted, and that when you cut down and replant, as you are bound by Statute to replant, a grant was not available. Possibly the Minister will be able to inform me. The other matter to which I wish to refer is that at the present moment it is almost impossible for anybody who wishes to replant to get trees. The ordinary nurserymen in this country apparently have only very small stocks and have not got some of the most suitable trees. For instance, it is impossible to get larch now from any nurseryman. At the present moment if one wants to replant—I have done some replanting myself, and I happen to know—one is practically confined to sitka spruce, which may or may not ultimately turn out to be a satisfactory tree for this country. I should like to ask the Minister if steps could be taken by his Department to see that the number of small trees planted is augmented.

The real difficulty at the moment with regard to replanting has been mentioned by the Minister in his statement, namely, the absence of rabbit wire. That is holding up all private plantation at the moment. I wish to impress upon the Minister the necessity of keeping the problem actively before whatever Department is concerned with the purchase of rabbit wire for private use. I presume that, during the emergency, it is the Department of Supplies. I should like the Minister to bear in mind, as soon as the position with regard to supplies becomes freer, the importance of securing a supply of rabbit wire for the Forestry Department. All private planting depends upon rabbit wire being available. It is most important from that point of view. I know that the Forestry Department, in the administration of that branch of their work, namely, replanting by private owners, do take into consideration the fact that this rabbit wire is not obtainable at present, but I am afraid that, in the scramble to get in supplies which will take place after the emergency, the necessity for rabbit wire may be overlooked by the Government Department concerned. I would ask the Minister to bear the matter in mind.

There is one point arising from the Minister's remarks. The Minister mentioned that the extension of planting was due to the lifting of rabbit wire in certain plantations. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that many of the plantation areas under his control have become absolutely infested with foxes, to the great detriment of the poultry industry. This is particularly noticeable in County Wicklow, and I am sure that the Minister has already received many complaints. With the lifting of rabbit wire from additional areas of growing plantations, it would seem that new areas will be opened up for infestation by vermin, and I would like to ask the Minister to see that special steps are taken to ensure the extermination of foxes on all plantations under his control. The Minister must realise that there is a special obligation on his Department to see that plantations are not so infested, because he is in a different position from the ordinary land holder, inasmuch as he is taking up land which is not at present, and cannot be, since it is not planted, infested by foxes, but he is providing cover for foxes. Therefore, it is his duty, in the interests of the poultry industry generally, to see that foxes are exterminated as far as possible.

Mr. Lynch

There was one peculiar thing about the Minister's statement with regard to sub-head D, where he said that part of the error in the Estimate was due to the fact that some of these grants were paid for work done many years ago. That seems extraordinary to me. Is there any time limit in which a person can claim grants of this kind? Can a man claim for some afforestation work done by his father, or is there any time limit to the period within which a man can claim for some planting done on his holding? I gathered from what the Minister said, at any rate, that apparently there falls due this year the payment of grants for work done many years ago.

I would like to direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that he is in competition with private saw-mill owners in County Wicklow. He is exempted from paying trade union rates of wages to sawyers and other skilled workers in the area. Under Emergency Powers (No. 260) Order, the Minister for Industry and Commerce established standard rates of wages for sawyers and others engaged in saw mills. The opposition to the application for the increase was that the Government Department concerned with forestry was in competition with these private firms, and was paying a much lower rate of wages than they were asked to pay by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I would ask the Minister to go into the question of the rates of wages paid to sawyers and others with a view to giving them the same rate of wages as is paid by private employers in the particular area. I would go further and suggest that those men who have given valuable service for, in some cases, 25 years, should be given pensions. The Minister should consider making arrangements for the preparation of a suitable scheme for these old employees.

The Deputy is wandering from the Supplementary Estimate.

I am sorry, Sir, but I would ask the Minister, in view of Order No. 260, to give the same rate of wages to skilled men as is paid by private employers.

On the point raised by Deputy Everett, I would like to ask the Minister if the amount of the receipts for the sales of firewood would not offset his gross demand. I would be interested to know, if he has the information at his disposal, the general scope of the sales of that particular firewood where his stocks are, for instance, convenient to the City of Dublin, and what are the details of the transactions to which he refers as "sales"?

Dublin Corporation.

I raised a question during the week, looking for some particulars about the sales of firewood in Gort. The information I had, and which I endeavoured to transfer to the Minister, was that it is alleged that some people have actually sold their turf so that they can acquire cheap firewood while the people who really require the firewood cannot get it because there is no portion laid aside for them at all. It is alleged that some people can buy five or six or ten or 20 parcels of wood while some people who are really in need of it must go home empty-handed. I intended to ask the Minister about it last week but there were so many questions that it was not reached. I wanted him to look into the matter and get some definite information about the sales of firewood in Gort.

That is not the case in County Wicklow.

I wonder, Sir, if I might start backwards. The Deputy's Party has been so insistent on asking supplementary questions during the past week that we have never been able to get as far as the questions to the Minister for Lands.

And you like that, do you not?

I assume the Deputy would have had a lot of supplementaries about the position in Gort, but he would have been completely out of luck. I went very carefully into the question of the sales of firewood in Gort. I do not remember the exact terms of the Deputy's question but I know that every point he made in it was completely wrong. We have particularly looked after the less well-off people in the Gort district. Firewood was sold in Gort in very small lots and really at a very low price. No poor person in the Gort area could fail to get firewood.

Will the Minister allow me for a moment? The information was given to me by citizens who were not endeavouring to purchase firewood at all—three or four citizens who were not in competition for the purchase of wood. They told me about the position and I have no reason to doubt their stories. I would ask the Minister to send down a senior inspector to investigate the complaints on the spot.

I do not think that there is any need to send anybody down. My information is that there was plenty of firewood for everybody in small lots and at a low price. I will check up on the information once again, and the Deputy will have the Dáil debates next week and I am sure that they will clear up the question satisfactorily for him.

I gather from the reply that the Minister has not got the full facts.

I think my informants are right.

All right.

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney raised the question of the payment of grants to people who have cut-over lands. Grants are payable to such people. I think it is reasonable, because it is really much more difficult to clear land of stumps and to prepare it for planting than it is to prepare virgin land for planting, and we are so interested in the development of planting that we do help them to prepare the land. There is also the difficulty of getting young trees. Nurserymen have no great quantity of these now. There has been the difficulty also of getting seeds. In the normal way I think the Department of Lands used to purchase a large quantity of plants from nurserymen. For the past few years there has been a scarcity. I can assure the Deputy that sitka spruce is considered to be quite suitable.

I do not think that it has been long enough in the country for anyone to be certain about it.

Well, the Deputy and I disagree on a good many things.

I am speaking only on the opinions I have got from experts—some of them in the Minister's own Department.

One Deputy spoke about rabbit wire. I do not think he need worry about our consideration for supplies of rabbit wire. I believe we have a great quantity of rabbit wire purchased in another country, but our difficulty will be to get export permits and shipping space. We fully realise the necessity of getting adequate supplies of rabbit wire as quickly as possible.

And making it available for private trappers as well?

Quite so, but I am afraid we will have to leave it for the present to the Department of Supplies. Deputy Cogan spoke about vermin. I did not know that foxes were regarded as vermin, but I suppose they are, from the farmers' point of view.

The rabbit wire will scarcely stop them.

We have some expert trappers and I realise that we have an obligation to do all we can to reduce the quantity of vermin. I can assure the Deputy, in spite of some disagreements during the past couple of weeks, that I am all in favour of the farmers. I do not know if Deputy Lynch was quite in earnest when he suggested that we were going back to our grandfathers' times in the matter of payments.

Mr. Lynch

I was only citing what I understood the Minister to say.

We wish to encourage planting in every way we can, but, sometimes, even Kerry people are a bit slow in the uptake. However, they are invariably in at the "kill" although they might be slow starters. I do not think the Deputy would like to see anyone in Kerry deprived of a grant.

Mr. Lynch

How many years do you go back? Is there any limit?

There must be a limit —there is a reason to everything.

Mr. Lynch

That was my point.

I cannot give Deputy O'Sullivan information in regard to the sales of timber in Dublin, but I think that Deputy Everett is quite sour about the amount of the timber, coming to the city, from Wicklow and he feels that the Dublin Corporation has pulled a quick one over the Wicklow urban council in that matter. If there is any information the Deputy wants about the distribution of timber in Dublin I will try to get it for him. I do not know much about the forestry payments mentioned by Deputy Everett. The Deputy has insisted on bringing up the question time and again here. Forestry labourers are paid, roughly, the agricultural rate and one of the reasons for this Estimate is to bring their wages into line with the recent increases in their rates of wages. But skilled men are in a much better position than unskilled men when it comes to seeking wage increases.

These are sawyers and helpers—not ordinary planters.

I will look into the matter.

Thanks very much.

I do not think there is anything else, Sir.

Vote put and agreed to.
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