asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health if he is aware that a member of Laoighis County Council requested the county manager for the county for certain information re persons in receipt of home assistance in the county in October, 1942; that the county manager refused to disclose the information; that as a result no investigation could be made by the councillor into allegations about the way the funds were administered; and, if so, whether he will state whether it is in the public interest that responsible councillors should be refused information regarding a matter of this nature.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Administration of Home Assistance in Laoighis.
The only representations in this matter which I received were from the Deputy, and the communication which I sent to him on the 4th May, 1943, dealt with the representations contained in the question. The Laoighis County Council and the chairman of the council can obtain all the information they may require from the county manager regarding any business of the council. As a member of the county council the normal course would be for the Deputy to move the council to require the manager to supply any information which the council desire. In view of the facilities which exist for obtaining full information regarding any business of the council the last part of the question does not arise.
Is the Minister aware that when the old boards of health were in existence any member of a board of health was in a position to find out who was in receipt of moneys given by the county board of health? Does the Minister consider that where a member of a council had the suspicion that certain irregularities are being carried on the county manager is within his rights in refusing such information as will throw light on the suspicion in the mind of any member of the council?
I think the best way to answer the question is to read for the Deputy, in order to refresh his memory, a letter I wrote him on the 4th May, 1943, in which I stated:—
"... at every meeting of the county council the register in which copies of the manager's orders made since the preceding meeting are entered is produced for the inspection of members. Any member can obtain a copy of any particular order which he specifies. The county council and the chairman of the council can also obtain such information as they may require from the manager regarding any business of the council. In this way the council can keep themselves fully conversant with the business transacted. Except in the manner provided for in the Act, individual members of the council cannot demand as of right information and returns from the manager, and therefore the manager was not bound to supply you with particulars of the allowances to persons in receipt of home assistance which you asked for. The manager has discretion in such a case to give or withhold information and the Minister has no power to issue any direction to him with regard to it."
Is the Minister aware that in October, 1942, I requested this information as a member of the county council, and that for six months after I requested the information the irregularities were carried on and, if the information had been given by the county manager, the Gárda Síochána or the responsible authorities would be able to deal with the officials concerned, who were responsible for the misconduct?
I must remind the Deputy that he did not call for information about any specific case. My recollection is that what he wanted to do was to go to the county council offices and conduct a roving inquiry on his own behalf.
Might I say that the Minister has been misinformed? I asked the county manager for certain information in connection with certain individuals who were in receipt of home assistance, because I was informed by constituents that a certain number of people who were supposed to be receiving home assistance were dead. I could not prove that without having a list from the county manager, which he refused to give. I think that I was treated very unfairly and that the ratepayers whom I represent were allowed to be robbed, if I might use the expression.
Surely the Deputy could have verified the facts as to the decease of certain persons without having recourse to the county manager.
Is the Minister aware that there is such a thing in this country as legal proceedings being instituted against any individual who makes a charge that he cannot prove and that I could not prove this charge without securing information from the county manager?
asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health if he received a letter dated 5th March, 1943, from a member of Laoighis County Council requesting him to hold a sworn inquiry into the administration of the public assistance section of the county council, on the grounds of allegations that public funds were put to other purposes through neglect or mismanagement of officials concerned; and if he will state why the inquiry was not granted, and if he now proposes to review the matter.
asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health if he is aware of the public notice dated 30th March, 1943, issued by the acting secretary, Laoighis County Council, announcing an extraordinary audit of accounts of the former Laoighis Board of Health and Public Assistance to be held on 5th April, 1943, at 12 noon at Courthouse, Portlaoighise, by a Local Government auditor; if he will state the names of the persons who, on 5th and 6th April, 1943, appeared before the auditor, and made objections to certain matters contained in the accounts; and if he will also state what facts members of the county council placed before the auditor on the dates in question.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 and 9 together.
The only request made to me by letter dated 5th March, 1943, in this matter was received from the Deputy. I am aware of the public notice dated 30th March, 1943, issued in connection with the extraordinary audit of the accounts of the former Laoighis Board of Health and Public Assistance to be held on 5th April, 1943, and I am informed that the Deputy is the only person who appeared before the auditor to make objections to matters contained in the accounts. Court proceeding have been taken against a home assistance officer for alleged fraudulent conversion of moneys provided for distribution to home assistance cases, and the result of these proceedings must be awaited before it can be decided whether any public inquiry is necessary. No irregularities in the administration of home assisttance in the districts of the other assistance officers in the county have been disclosed as a result of the audit.
Certain vouchers vital to the audit have been impounded by the Gárda authorities in connection with the legal proceedings and until these proceedings have been determined the final report of the auditor on the extraordinary audit held in connection with the defalcations cannot be completed. The Deputy was informed by my Department on the 27th October last that when the auditor's final report is received copies will be sent to the county manager for circulation among members of the county council. I should say that the auditor has made two interim reports, copies of which were sent to the secretary of county council and should be available to the council.
Is the Minister aware that at the Laoighis County Council yesterday I raised the question of the reports from the auditor and I was informed by the county manager that no such reports were available? Will the Minister indicate if he proposes to hold an inquiry when the legal proceedings at present being instituted are concluded?
I have already, in my reply, indicated to the Deputy that I cannot undertake to give any decision as to whether or not an inquiry will be held until I receive the final report of the auditor. As to what transpired at the Laoighis County Council yesterday, the Deputy will understand that I have no information in that regard. I can say this, that I know no reason why the interim report should not have been presented.
Further to the Minister's reply, is he aware that numerous requests have been made by me from time to time to get information in connection with this matter, and it has been refused? Am I to understand from the Minister's reply that if I go down to Portlaoighise I can demand the information that the auditor placed at the disposal of the county council? I think as a councillor I have a right to it. Will the Minister say if the inquiry conducted into the affairs of the Roscommon County Council quite recently——
That does not arise. The question relates to the Laoighis County Council.
I am just giving an example.
It is not in order.
I think the Minister would be well advised to give more consideration to cases where the ratepayers of the county are suffering a severe loss——
The Deputy is making a speech.
I am asking him if he is aware of it.
It is still a speech.
Arising out of his reply——
I will not hear the Deputy further. He has had many supplementaries already.
Did I understand the Minister to lay down the general principle that county councillors are not entitled to demand as a right from the county manager lists of the names of persons in receipt of home assistance? Does he realise that, if that is to be the general rule, very grave abuses will inevitably manifest themselves, because the ordinary procedure of local administration is that it is the local councillor who advises the chief executive officer of the local authority as to whether or not that chief executive officer is conscientiously carrying out his duty?
I think the Deputy has misunderstood me. I have not laid it down as a general principle that a county manager should refuse this information. I merely said this, that the county manager is only obliged by law to give information to the chairman of the county council if the chairman requests it, or to the county council if the county council by resolution asks for it. In that case, the county manager is bound to give all the information in his possession in relation to the particular matter in regard to which it has been requested. So far as an individual member of the council is concerned, I think the county managers should, wherever they are requested to do so, as a matter of courtesy give such information as a member of the county council may request in relation to any business of the county council, but they are not compelled by law to do so.
If it becomes manifest that councillors are asking for lists of those in receipt of outdoor assistance, and that the managers are in a considerable number of cases refusing that information, would the Minister consider making the necessary amendment of the law to define more clearly the rights of individual councillors to get information?
I am afraid I could not give an affirmative answer, without many reservations, to that question. The Deputy will be well aware that public assistance is a matter about which there is a certain amount of delicacy. Unless there is very flagrant abuse, one does not want to expose unnecessarily the circumstances of those who are in receipt of public assistance. In the particular case which has been under review I am not satisfied that the information was required solely for the purpose of exposing an abuse.
In any case, the Minister will consider that problem?
Will the Minister inquire whether the information refused to Deputy Flanagan was at the same time supplied to a local sergeant of the Gárda Síochána?
Mr. Byrne
The Minister has stated that, by resolution, the council can get information from the city manager or the county manager, but, if a minority of the council requires that information and cannot get a resolution carried by the majority, is that minority to be refused the information which will enable them to conduct the affairs of the council according to their lights?
Surely that is a mistaken position?
That is the law.
But it requires looking into.
Might I ask——
No. 10. There has been quite a debate on this question.