Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jun 1944

Vol. 94 No. 8

Supplementary Estimate. - Vote 69—Supplies.

Minister for Supplies (Mr. Lemass)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim breise ná raghaidh thar £342,000 chun roctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1945, chun Tuarastail agus Costas Oifig an Aire Soláthairtí ar a n-áirítear Cúnta Airgid áirithe agus Ildeontais-i-gCabhair.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £342,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1945, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Supplies, including payment of certain Subsidies and Sundry Grants-in-Aid.

This supplementary sum is required for two main purposes. I informed the Dáil that, arising out of a shortage of coal requirements, we have arranged to procure and to transport to Dublin approximately 200,000 tons of turf for industrial needs. The turf made available for industrial use will be 64/- per ton, but selling it at that price will involve the Government in a loss. The loss in the sale of turf sold for industrial purposes will be considerably less than in the case of turf stacked in dumps and sold from dumps for domestic purposes, because it can, in the main, be transported from the bogs to the consumers, and, in any event, will be sold in quantities considerably larger than the domestic ration. It is estimated that on turf sold for industrial use a loss of about 15/- per ton will develop. On the basis of 200,000 tons sold, an additional £150,000 will be required, and that figure has been brought up to £200,000 to meet the eventuality of some turf having to be sold for industrial purposes from the dumps. In the case of turf sold from dumps the loss will be greater, because there is wastage allowance also involved. The second purpose for which this sum is required is on the construction of additional camps. On the assumption that the fuel emergency will continue to 1945, it is thought opportune to make arrangements now for increased turf production next year. One of the measures contemplated in that regard is the construction of three additional camps in the Kildare area.

Whether it will be possible to build these camps at all depends entirely on the availability of material; but on the assumption that materials will be available, we require from the Dáil the necessary financial sanction. Plans for the construction of three additional camps were made prior to the recent development in relation to fuel, which has raised doubts as to the availability of materials. Assuming that we can get the materials, we propose to proceed with these plans. The construction of the three camps will involve, it is estimated, an expenditure of £105,400; but in addition it will be necessary to undertake certain drainage works, the construction of roads, railway and loading banks, to a cost of a further £36,600, making a total sum required of £142,000. The total additional amount required, therefore, for fuel purposes in the year is £342,000, which is the amount I am now asking the Dáil to vote.

Mr. Norton

There is one question I would like to ask the Minister, in regard to the turf subsidy. Last year, the Minister gave us figures as to the cost of producing turf and the price at which turf is sold in Dublin. Could the Minister give us any indication now as to what it is costing, on an average, to produce the turf which is being sold in Dublin at 64/- per ton? Could he also give us an assurance that it is not contemplated—as has been rumoured in certain quarters—to increase the price of turf to the consumer?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy has asked me what turf costs to produce. He is, I think, seeking information that will be of little use to him. The cost of the turf to Fuel Importers, Limited depends, not merely on the production price but also on the transport charges.

Mr. Norton

I mean the all-in cost.

Mr. Lemass

I have given those figures previously.

Mr. Norton

Yes, but that was a good while ago. We got figures last year, which indicated that there was a subsidy of 28/10. I think, on turf sold at 64/-.

Mr. Lemass

I can give no further information: the only figure I can give now would be the same figure as last year, as the costs that are going to arise in connection with this year's harvest cannot yet be determined. It is assumed, as I told the Dáil during the discussion on the main Estimate, that the charge for turf produced by the county councils will be some shillings higher this year than last year, mainly due to higher wages paid to turf workers; but apart from that increased charge for county council turf and some additional transport costs, arising out of increased rail freights, the all-in cost of the turf should remain much the same. A great deal depends on the quantity of turf sold direct from railhead to fuel distributors, or the quantity that can be delivered by rail or road into distributors' yards. On that turf there is, in fact, little loss at all.

The loss mainly arises in connection with turf that has to be stored in dumps. In the extra handling involved in the ricking, first in the dumps and subsequent unloading of the turf from the dumps, the wastage is reckoned at about 20 per cent. and thus adds about 20 per cent. to the total cost. That wastage may, in fact, prove of less financial significance in this year than in the past as, heretofore, we wrote off the turf mould as a dead loss. It has not proved to be a dead loss. Originally, we contemplated sending that mould back by canal to the briquette factory and making briquettes out of it, and some 500 or 600 tons was disposed of in that way; but latterly there has been a substantial industrial demand for turf mould and, in fact, all the mould which was available has been sold to industrial firms whose boilers are of a type which permits of the use of mould as fuel in preference to the use of sods. However, to what extent that new development—and it is a new development—will affect the all-in cost of the turf, it is very difficult to say at this stage.

The actual cost of turf produced varies considerably from bog to bog, and we take the average cost at the point of discharge at 57/4. That is an average cost and does not represent the actual cost in any particular district. It would include the cost of turf production by county councils as well as turf purchased from private individuals. An allowance must also be made as regards the price of turf produced at the turf camps, which is higher still, added to the varying transport costs and, in various circumstances, some allowances in respect of the cost of putting turf in dumps and wastage of the turf in dumps.

I can give the Deputy only the figures for last year and could not give a close estimate for this year. On the turf which is being sold for industrial purposes and which will be sold in larger quantities direct to consumers and transported from the bog area to the consumer, we expect to lose 15/- a ton; but the Deputy will understand that that is nothing more than a guess, as a number of factors may make it more or less.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister assure us that no increase in the price is contemplated?

Mr. Lemass

No increase in the price of domestic turf is contemplated.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Leaving out the question of price and cost, the quality of the turf—particularly of that coming into this city—must be considered. It was a scandal at any time to send up, some of the turf I have seen brought in and in the course of transit; but, under present circumstances, when the transport situation is so acute, I think it is a crime. I have seen turf loaded on wagons and in lorries for this city that would not be drawn out of a bog by people at home in the country. It would not pay them and they would not dream of doing it; they would not even class it as turf at all. It is a shame to bring it up. I know there are difficulties, but I suggest that the Minister should make representations to the Turf Development Board, not only for the sake of the unfortunate consumers here in the city, but certainly in order to make the fullest possible use of the limited transport at our disposal, that as far as possible only turf of good quality will be brought in. I know that there has been an improvement. I do not think that there is such bad turf coming into the city now as there was last year or the year before, or in the first year it started; but I am afraid there is still a very considerable quantity of turf coming in that, in my opinion, it is a shame to give to consumers, as it is nearly impossible to burn it, and that it is also a shame and a complete waste of transport to be bringing it here at all.

Mr. O'Donnell

I would like to draw the Minister's attention to my particular area. As I am sure the Minister knows, it is between Cahir and Mitchelstown, on the main Cork-Dublin road. About four miles south of Cahir, there is an old ball-alley and a road leading from there to the Galtee Mountains, about three Irish miles from the trunk road. The bog is within sight of where I live, but I have never been on it and it has the reputation of having the best turf in Ireland—but then, we are all good at the use of superlatives. There are banks there where the turf is 30 feet deep. I think Kilcoran is the name of the townland. About three years ago a grant was made by the Government to recondition three miles of that road up to the turf bog. There must be hundreds of acres of turf there, but we get our turf for North Tipperary from Kerry and Galway. That must be a great waste in transport, when there is turf within three miles of us.

I understand the reconditioning of that road cost £300 or £400. There are really only two people taking turf from that bog and about 100 clamouring for it. If the Minister would take note of that, I think the county surveyor in Clonmel would put him wise as to it. What happened I do not know, but the road was to be reconditioned. The Government was giving a grant and possibly the county council, but there it is. There are hundreds of acres of turf there, 30 or 40 feet deep.

Mr. Hughes

There is a footnote to the effect that a Grant-in-Aid is made out of the fund from time to time. Is that made on a tonnage basis, or is it made to defray debit balances?

Mr. Lemass

The Grant-in-Aid in this case is for the construction of camps.

Mr. Hughes

Is the grant which is made towards the cost of the turf made on a tonnage basis?

Mr. Lemass

It is not made to the Turf Development Board. Fuel Importers buy from the Turf Development Board, as they buy from county surveyors and private producers, whatever turf is available. The subsidy is applied through Fuel Importers——

Mr. Hughes

Is that to defray a deficit or is it on a tonnage basis?

Mr. Lemass

No. This grant is for constructional works.

Mr. Hughes

What about the subsidy on turf?

Mr. Lemass

It is not paid to the Turf Development Board, but to Fuel Importers, the organisation that handles it.

Mr. Hughes

On what basis?

Mr. Lemass

It is actually the difference between what they get in and what they pay out. That difference is made good.

Mr. Hughes

Then, it is to meet a deficit?

Mr. Lemass

Perhaps, but they handle more than turf. They handle coal and timber.

Mr. Hughes

But the Grant-in-Aid is to meet a deficit?

Mr. Lemass

This Grant-in-Aid is for the construction of camps, roads, railways and so on.

Mr. Hughes

Are all the camps situate in Kildare?

Mr. Lemass

No; in Kildare, Laoighis and Wieklow but mostly in Kildare. As to the point raised by Deputy Morrissey, precautions are taken to ensure that bad turf is not transported. We fully appreciate the necessity for conserving transport facilities and avoiding the waste of these facilities by using them to bring turf that can never be any good. Arrangements are made for inspection of the turf at the loading points to ensure the rejection of turf that can never be any good. It does not follow that turf which is not immediately usable is rejected. The turf may be segregated into two classes—that which is immediately usable and can be sent direct into the merchant's yard or into the yard of the industrial consumer and turf which, although not immediately usable, is capable of becoming usable after a period in rick or in dump. The aim is to secure that turf which cannot be used and which will not be capable of use is not transported. I expect that there will be a satisfactory improvement in the quality of turf this year because the season has been favourable to turf-winning. But people in Dublin City who are not accustomed to using turf should realise that turf is not coal, that it has peculiarities which coal has not, one of these peculiarities being absorption of moisture.

Mr. D. Morrissey

That is not the only peculiarity.

Mr. Lemass

Turf absorbs moisture when transported under rain, when stacked on damp ground, or when placed in proximity to wet turf. It is not like coal in that respect. Therefore, turf requires to be handled in an entirely different way from coal and it is only in the course of time that people in the city who have not been in the habit of using turf as a fuel will become accustomed to its peculiarities and make the best possible use of it.

With regard to the road mentioned by Deputy O'Donnell, he must have in mind a minor relief grant for the construction of the road to which he refers, in which case I refer him to the Board of Works, or some road work necessary to facilitate the production of turf by the county council, in which case he has got to go to the county manager. The Turf Development Board would not be responsible for the construction of a road of that kind. It may be a road required for the convenience of local people producing turf for their own needs, in which case the Board of Works may, or may not, be prepared to make some grant for its construction. If it is intended to facilitate turf operations by the county council, then the county council would be responsible.

Mr. O'Donnell

It is on the old Glengall estate.

Mr. Lemass

It may be a matter for the Land Commission. I could not say.

Mr. O'Donnell

It is worth exploring. It was a dispute between the two big political Parties which prevented the road from being reconditioned. There is an inexhaustible supply of turf there.

Mr. Keyes

The Minister's reference to the handling of turf and the handling of coal tempts me to make a few remarks. Deputy Morrissey referred to the wastage involved in using railway trucks for carrying turf which is inferior. Is the Minister satisfied with the way coal is being handled on the railway and with the utilisation of the railway trucks for this purpose? I have information that 26 wagons were lying under load for six or seven days at a station between Arigna and Dublin. Will the Minister look into the transport facilities afforded in connection with our Irish coal? It is coming in now with fair regularity and promptitude from the mines. What is the average time required to bring a wagon of coal to Dublin, Bray or Carlow? Up to the 20th of this month, 26 wagons were lying under load with Irish coal at a station between Arigna and here. Why should the wagons be kept out of service in this way?

Mr. Larkin

It is quite clear that the biggest problem in connection with the transport of turf is concentrated in Dublin. I refer both to the turf coming into Dublin and to the rehandling of the turf within the city boundaries. I put it to the Minister that those responsible might be urged to reconsider the whole system in operation at the moment. We can recall numerous complaints last winter, both inside the House and outside, that turf was not available in different parts of the city because of lack of bellmen in certain districts. The Minister did make certain improvements, but in some parts of the city—notably in Crumlin and the west end of Cabra—it was impossible to obtain turf on more than one day in the week. I suggest that this concentration of the available turf in two main dumps should be reconsidered from the point of view of transport. It has been suggested to Fuel Importers that the situation might be dealt with by the opening of dumps by the corporation.

We have in the city certain lines of transport along which the turf is brought in—railways and canals. Along the Grand Canal, a new bank has been made at Dolphin's Barn. Could not other banks be made, not only along the Grand Canal, but along the Royal Canal? In that way, you would have local dumps of turf immediately contiguous to the people who are going to use it. It would come straight off the barges to the people, and a great deal of handling would be cut out. It would also save a tremendous amount of local transport, as sections of the Grand and Royal Canals run through the two districts where the demand for turf delivered in that form is greatest. In that way you would relieve the congestion that is developing on the main dumps. When there is a big consignment of turf by rail or by road, it results in men having to work from 20 to 25 hours by way of overtime every week in order to clear it.

You will also get over the difficulty of trying to find sufficient local transport. I refer to the bellmen who take the turf, in the small quantities necessary, to the outlying districts. The number of bellmen now engaged in carting turf in that way is slightly more than the number who used to handle coal, because at the present time they have to handle almost two and a half times the quantity of fuel. Naturally, there is a certain amount of difficulty in finding bellmen to meet the requirements of the people in the outlying areas. In Crumlin and some other areas on the outskirts of the city there are as many as 40,000 or 50,000 people, and in the winter time if you get beyond a certain point, it may be found that there is very little turf to spare. If local dumps were available along the Grand Canal, they would be within easy reach of many of the families residing in those outlying areas. That would mean cutting out the transport of the fuel a distance of at least four or five miles. These dumps could be built not only along the canals, but also along the railway lines that we have circling round the city. I believe it would ease the present fuel transport problem.

I suggest the Minister might put that matter to Fuel Importers and see if it would not be possible to arrange a system based on local needs during the coming winter. The position is that 320,000 tons of turf will be brought in this season, as against 160,000 tons last year. That shows the enormity of the problem that has to be faced. Unless there is some improvement in the method of distribution, the position will be somewhat the same as last winter. Large quantities of turf will remain in the dumps and the fuel will not reach the people who need it.

Mr. Lemass

That question of distribution to the outlying areas is receiving attention at the moment.

Vote put and agreed to.