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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Nov 1944

Vol. 95 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—International Affairs.

I had a question on the Order Paper to-day asking the Minister for External Affairs whether Dr. Masaryk, who is Deputy-Premier and Minister of Foreign Affairs in Czecho-Slovakia, had been, on Government intervention, prevented from addressing a private meeting of the Irish Institute of International Affairs on Friday last at the Shelbourne Hotel, and if he would state the reason and the authority for such intervention. I added to that a question as to whether Press notices of the voidance of this meeting—to use a neutral term—had been suppressed by the Censor, and, if so, what was the reason for it. Deputy James Larkin (Junior) had a question down in much the same terms. They were both answered at the same time.

It was well known to the public here that this reputable statesman from a foreign country had come to this country and that he had spoken at Trinity College, Dublin, where the Taoiseach was on the same platform and that he had the felicity, not often accorded foreigners, of receiving from the Taoiseach the completely neutral remark—I am sure it was meant in a neutral spirit — that his country had suffered so cruelly in the war and that he, the Taoiseach, hoped that that country's agonies would soon be at an end. It was quite right that the Taoiseach should make that statement to this very distinguished representative of a country which had suffered so cruelly, even though it came from a platform in Trinity College.

The answer I got to my question as to why this gentleman who arrived here and spoke at Trinity College was not allowed to speak at a private meeting, at which no Press representative would be present, of citizens of this country, gathered under the auspices of the Irish Institute of International Affairs was in these terms:

"It is an obvious and well-recognised principle that when a Minister of the Government of one State is invited to address a group of citizens within the territory of another, the latter State's Government should be informed beforehand and afforded an opportunity of expressing its assent."

I am told that that principle applies even in times of peace, but much more so in times of war. I want to challenge that as a principle.

Since the question was put and replied to, I have searched my own library—I must admit that it contains mainly books on international law and this is a matter of international courtesy—and I took the opportunity of consulting a colleague who is particularly well versed in these matters, and who has what I regard as a better library on diplomatic procedure. I find nowhere a statement of this as a principle. The books I consulted are the well-known books of Hall, Lawrence, Oppenheim, Wheaton and Brierly and the French book by Fauchille. The book I had looked up by a colleague of mine was Satow on Diplomatic Procedure. If there is a principle, I should like the Taoiseach, before this matter ends, to give us a reference to some standard work or document, and I should be very glad if he would add on to his reference, if he has any, to a standard work some statement of an example known to him of where this, which may possibly be a dry principle of diplomatic etiquette and courtesy, has been operated in similar circumstances.

I am told that this principle applies in times of peace because it makes for the avoidance of possible domestic incidents, and then there follows a statement that it could never be said that the delivery of a lecture by a Minister of one State to a group of citizens in the territory of another was so much a matter of indifference to those responsible for the conduct of the latter State's foreign relations as to make it immaterial whether they were informed or consulted. I am told that this matter was a question for the Government of the country concerned, acting on behalf of the Parliament and people, to say whether it was wise that such a lecture should be given. Supplementaries indicated that the lecture was not cancelled on any decision as to whether the particular subject chosen was wise or unwise, but simply because the Government was not informed. A supplementary was put by Deputy Mulcahy to the Taoiseach:—

"Do I understand that the main exception taken is that the meeting was arranged without the Government's permission being asked?"

and the reply was "yes". The question of the wisdom or unwisdom of the lecture did not arise, at least as a foremost point.

One would have thought that if, when a distinguished man of the type of Dr. Masaryk came here and a meeting had been arranged, there was any punctilio with regard to whether the Government were informed or not, it might have been waived for the occasion and the institute told that it had happened this time, but they would be glad if another procedure were adopted in future; but notwithstanding that the lecture was arranged and the Minister was here and that he is a Minister of the type mentioned by the Taoiseach to-day, the meeting was cancelled. The particular way in which that Minister was described to-day was as a man of experience who would know what would be proper in a case like this, who, coming into a neutral State as the representative of a belligerent State, would know what would be proper. It was said that he did not go beyond the bounds of what would be proper; but if he was a man of experience who would know what would be proper, one would imagine that his discretion might have been trusted in addressing less than 100 citizens in a private room in the Shelbourne Hotel with no Press present. However, I am told that it is a matter of principle well recognised, and I should like to get a reference to this principle and some examples of where it was put into operation.

I am told that this group which issued the invitation could scarcely have been ignorant of the correct procedure. May I give the House some indication of what that group does know as a result of its experience with the Department of External Affairs? A very well-known Pole, Count Balinski, did in fact lecture to the institute on two occasions.

Does the Deputy now propose to bring in other matters? If the Deputy wants to raise a question on each one of these, let him do it as a separate question. Do not try to side-track this business.

I am bringing it in with a view to seeing whether the group could have been ignorant of the correct procedure; in other words, whether they were ever informed of the correct procedure. Count Balinski lectured here twice and no objection was taken. He lectured to the institute on two occasions and no objection was taken. He intended to lecture here on a third occasion. A member informed the secretary of the institute that he expected to be in Dublin in January, 1943, and he was asked if he would lecture on a certain subject. He then wrote that, when the Polish Embassy applied on his behalf to the High Commissioner's Office for permission to come here, they were requested not to make the application, as it could not be granted for the time being.

Monsignor Kuchar, the representative of the Royal Yugo-Slav Government, agreed to lecture to the institute in the spring of 1942. He had to abandon the lecture. He later found a date fixed, and on the 19th January, 1943, he wired:—

"Cancel lecture; journey not considered necessary. Letter follows."

A letter did follow to the effect that

"A few days after I had wired asking you to cancel the lecture, I was informed by the competent place that everything was in order and I was free to go. This permission stands now for the future and I have been promised every assistance."

The lecture was rearranged, and on May 25th, Monsignor Kuchar wired:

"Lecture, June 10th, cancelled owing to obstacles independent of my good will."

These are two instances. The institute never asked people to come over here without a visa. If there is a recognised principle in the background, surely it might have been stated.

A third case arose which gave a special opportunity for a statement of principle, if principle governs this matter. That was when one of the best known Spaniards, Senor de Madariaga was invited to lecture here and agreed. The meeting was fixed provisionally for June, 1943. He applied to the High Commissioner's Office in London for a visa on March 20th, and he was told that the letter would be placed before Mr. Dulanty on his return. On 15th April, no further response having come from the High Commissioner's Office, he wrote to the institute here and the institute, after some preliminaries, trying to find out what happened in London, eventually on 30th May wrote to the Department of External Affairs in this country and the terms of the letter are worth noting:—

"The council of the institute have therefore instructed me to inquire of you whether or not there is an official objection to Senor de Madariaga's addressing the institute on this subject and at this time, and whether he is likely to have any difficulty in obtaining the necessary permit to visit this country. I should be glad if you would inform me as soon as convenient, so that I may make the necessary arrangements with Señor de Madariaga."

Remember the dates. On March 20th there was an application to the High Commissioner's Office and there was a reply that it would be put before Mr. Dulanty on his return. No response having come, favourable or unfavourable, he applies to the institute here and on the 30th May they apply in respect of a lecture to be delivered on the 18th June about which information had been given to one branch of the Department of External Affairs in London on March 20th, and a letter comes three days before the lecture is to be delivered which says:

"I regret the delay in replying to your letter of the 30th May. It was due to my absence from the office for some weeks."

I thought we were paying an assistant secretary in that Department. If there is a principle well recognised and established, one would imagine that the assistant secretary could have written to say so instead of letting the secretary's absence from the office delay even this type of reply until three days before the lecture was to be delivered. The letter went on:

"There are difficulties about bringing foreigners into this country for the purpose of giving lectures, and it would perhaps be better to consult the Department before issuing invitations in future. That is the normal usage in all countries in time of emergency, and, no doubt, it is solidly based on experience."

As I said, that came three days before the lecture was to be delivered. In the meantime the lecture had been called off. No other communication on that matter was ever received from the Department of External Affairs. I want that matter considered again. The lecture was arranged for the 18th June. The institute knowing that the gentleman in order to come here had to get a visa, he applies to the High Commissioner's Office on March 20th. By April 15th he has got no reply. I presume the matter was sent here and that the Department here were advised at some time between March 20th and 15th April. In May a letter is addressed to the secretary and a variety of positive questions were put.

This question deals with a very specific case.

I am sorry there have to be interruptions. I am told that this group could scarcely have been ignorant of the correct procedure. I want to know if they were ever told of it.

I wonder what time I am to get to reply.

I understand the usual division of the time allotted is 20 minutes and ten minutes. The Taoiseach will get his full ten minutes and, if he wants to get any more, I have no objection to the House sitting a bit later. Here is the point. Notice is given on 20th March and the finish is that on the 15th June the institute are told there is a difficulty about bringing foreigners into this country for the purpose of giving lectures, and then we are told that it is the normal usage to approach the Department in time of emergency. The questions that were put were not replied to: Is there any official objection to this gentleman's addressing the institute on this subject and at this time, and is he likely to have any difficulty in obtaining the necessary permit to visit this country? The result of the institute's experience in respect of Monsignor Kuchar is that we are told that, for reasons he does not know anything about, he is asked not to come. Then he is told he can come, and then he is told he cannot come. Count Balinski addresses the institute twice, but when he wants to come a third time, he is told: "We do not think we will be able to let you come." The situation as regards Señor de Madariaga is what I have mentioned.

This question was raised in relation to the visit of Dr. Masaryk. There are quite a number of details in connection with these others and if the Deputy wants to raise anything about any one of these——

I only want to raise one point. I am raising, against interruptions, that are for an obvious purpose, one point: Were the group ignorant of the proper procedure? Had they touch with the Department of External Affairs on such a number of occasions that they might have been told of it? Have they been told of it? Further, I want to know is there a well-established principle, where it is laid down and where are the examples with regard to it? I say that that correspondence indicates, so far as the institute were able to arrive at any conclusion, two things. One, that if it is intended to bring in a foreigner from outside to address the country, naturally the Department must know of it because a visa must be requested, and on that the whole matter can be raised. But I say that it is a reasonable interpretation of that letter from the Department of External Affairs that, once a person has got a visa for a special purpose, then there is no reason why the institute should approach the Department to know whether a further meeting could be arranged.

In any event, the situation is peculiar. Dr. Masaryk is allowed into this country. He is allowed to visit Trinity College and to address a public meeting. He is allowed to speak on what may be regarded as a controversial topic, the small nations. But, when the same gentleman on the occasion of that visit is asked to address a meeting where, by rule, the members of the Press are not to be present, where there is no publicity given, where he is to lecture on "Czecho-Slovakia During and After the War", and where the guests are limited to members of the institute or their friends, and admission is by ticket, only then apparently a matter of punctilio arises; if the Department are not consulted, then, whether the lecture is wise or unwise, the Department says: "You must withdraw".

I have listened in recent months to different people speaking about the post-war world. In England there is an association called The Sword of the Spirit, which was established by the late Cardinal Hinsley, making for better world relations. At one of the recent conferences it was stated that the only way in which we can get better world relations is by getting to know each other and having frequent international conferences. In October this year, President Roosevelt addressed the Foreign Policy Association, a private organisation of American citizens, and stated that the kind of world order which we, the peaceloving nations, must achieve must depend essentially on friendly human relations, acquaintance, and tolerance. We try to get more acquaintance, some appreciation of the problems of other countries. Then, as a matter of punctilio, a bar is put on it.

There is one small matter with regard to a private experience. I must confess frankly my ignorance of this principle. It never was operated against me, nor did I ever request its operation in connection with any matter on which I was invited to address people. I have spoken in Ottawa and in New York. I spoke frequently in England. Some of these meetings were so obviously of an extempore kind that no permission could have been sought, and I never heard that any question was raised about it. I have consulted colleagues who have experience in these matters, and some of whom have represented the State abroad. I know that when they were our Ministers abroad they addressed many meetings and on no occasion did they know that this principle was either sought to be applied or in fact enforced with regard to any of them. I am anxious to find out where the principle comes from.

The last matter is the censorship. Censorship is like the Cheshire cat. The Cheshire cat left a grin and the censorship leaves a bad odour. Might I refer the Taoiseach to his remarks in September, 1939, when the censorship was being introduced? What was to be censored was news and not views. We have wandered a great deal from that.

I was informed to-day that the Government's attitude towards the address to be delivered to this Irish Institute was to be raised. Deputy McGilligan takes very good care to bring in a number of points, on which I have a very big file here giving details about each one—but I got no intimation that details of these other cases were to be raised. If I did, perhaps there would be quite a different feeling, when I explained the circumstances, from that which Deputy McGilligan would like to prevail.

I am not sorry that this matter has been raised. It is well that the position of this body calling itself the Irish Institute of International Affairs, and the character of its activities, should be generally known.

I am informed that this body was first set up in 1936, following a visit to this country of the Secretary of the Royal Institute of International Affairs in Britain. The British Institute of International Affairs is, of course, well known. It is a body which commands considerable respect and authority in Britain and other countries. It is a body founded by royal charter and the terms of its charter provide just those safeguards as regards the non-party political nature of its activity, and the objective character of its work and publications, which have given the British Institute the authority which it enjoys in the eyes of serious students of international affairs.

No one, for example, could conceive of the British Institute participating in the politics of the day, or conducting propaganda against the foreign policy of the British Government in power. Much less can one imagine the British Institute, without the knowledge of the British Government or the Foreign Office, inviting members and officials of foreign Governments to come to London to attend meetings at which matters affecting the British foreign policy of the day would be discussed and speeches hostile to, or critical of that policy would be made. If the British Institute did that sort of thing, it would soon lose the position which it holds to-day. It would be regarded, and quite rightly so, as a focus of propaganda and as a body whose activities were harmful to British relations with other countries and to British interests generally.

But, of course, the British Institute does not do anything of the kind. In time of peace, its studies and publications are objective and authoritative as to statements of fact, carefully avoiding, in accordance with the charter, expressions of opinion on current international affairs. In time of war, as is the position at present, the British Institute works in close association with, and indeed in certain respects under the actual control of the British Foreign Office.

Now, let us turn to the so-called Irish Institute of International Affairs. I make the contrast between the two bodies for two reasons — firstly, because, as I say, the Irish Institute was set up following a visit of the Secretary of the British Institute in 1936, and, secondly, because owing to the circumstances and the similarity of the titles of the two bodies, people, and particularly foreigners, are apt to draw the conclusion—and in actual cases have drawn the conclusion—that the Irish Institute is a body of the same character and standing as its British counterpart—that it is a regularly constituted institute with objects similar to those of the Royal Institute of International Affairs; that official safeguards have been provided for the non-party political and objective character of its work similar to the safeguards provided in the royal charter in England; that if it does not work in actual association with the Department of External Affairs here as the British Institute works with the Foreign Office in London, at least that it is careful not to place itself in a position of conflict with its own Government, and that, therefore, when it issues an invitation to a member of a foreign Government or foreign diplomat to address one of its meetings, the invitation can be accepted in the assurance that, when the person invited arrived in this country, he would find that his visit was known beforehand to the Irish Government and welcomed by it.

It is well, as I have said, that the facts about this so-called Irish Institute of International Affairs should be known. First of all, it is not a chartered body. It has no kind of official recognition or approval. Indeed, it has no legal existence whatever, and the title "Irish Institute of International Affairs" is simply self-assumed. Having no legal existence, it is subject to none of the legal safeguards with regard to the character of its activities which are provided in the case of the British Institute in its charter. The charter and by-laws of the British Institute are published documents available to anyone who asks for them.

The rules of the Irish Institute have not been published, if, indeed, it has any rules at all. If the Irish Institute has imposed upon itself in its rules any restrictions as regards the objective character of its work and the non-political character of its proceedings, it has not abided by them. I am satisfied beyond all doubt, from the information at my disposal, including complaints which I have received from members of the organisation itself, that, far from making the slightest effort to preserve the character which a body of this kind should have if it is to be of any public service, the Irish Institute has become a focus of propaganda devoted entirely to furthering and encouraging a particular point of view in relation to the present war.

One would think that, however they might feel individually, those holding office in the institute would refrain, out of simple patriotism and regard for the democratically expressed wishes of our own people, from attacking this country's position in relation to the war in the presence of foreigners. There is enough misrepresentation of the policy of the Irish people in relation to the present conflict without vice-presidents of a body masquerading under a title which suggests that it is concerned with the objective and fact-finding study of international affairs, getting up in front of foreigners and providing ammunition for people abroad who wish to say that neutrality is a policy forced by the Irish Government on an unwilling people.

If you have a body genuinely concerned with the study of international affairs, it is natural that from time to time it will wish to invite foreigners— members of foreign governments and foreign diplomats—to speak at its meetings. Now, I am not arguing that an institute of that kind—provided always, of course, that it was properly organised—should be actually associated with the Foreign Office in the conduct of its work in peace time. The arrangement in England at the moment is a temporary one and will hardly continue after the war.

But it is quite a different question to have, in a war situation, a body using a title which gives a wholly misleading idea as to its status and the nature of its activities, going over the head of its own Government in a time of danger and without their knowledge or without any prior notification to them, issuing invitations to members of foreign governments and foreign officials asking them to come to this country and attend meetings at which speeches attacking the Government of this country and the policy adopted by the Irish people as a whole are made.

That is precisely what this institute has made a practice of doing, and it is a practice which no Government worthy of the name would tolerate. Does any member of the House imagine for a moment that any reputable institute in, say, Britain or the United States or any other country would dream of doing such a thing, leaving their own Government to learn of the intended visits of distinguished foreigners to the country from report, or hearsay, and putting the visitors themselves in the position of arriving in this country only to find that the Government had no knowledge or notice whatever of their coming.

I am not talking of courtesy, I am talking about a well-regulated principle of public conduct. The Deputy has asked me if I could give references. It is not necessary to give references in regard to ordinary common decencies and ordinary common sense.

There is no reference.

The fact is—and the Deputy knows it and he was not fit to be in charge of the Department of External Affairs if he did not know it —that one must inform the Government of the country concerned. So much is it so that, in order to make certain that that position would be made clear, there is a decree of the most democratic country in the world, namely, Switzerland, governing that. However, if the Deputy and the members of this so-called institute are not able to see the principle, I do not think that there is any use in my talking about it.

The Taoiseach cannot give the references, anyway.

There are many things for which references can be given, but not about decent conduct.

The Taoiseach cannot do it now.

There is no one who would deny it except the Deputy and others like him.

That is what has them where they are.

The Minister for Justice should not display his ignorance here to-night.

If there is time, I will read the Swiss Decree which puts the position in a very clear way as far as that country is concerned. I am talking about the well-recognised principle of public conduct. No Government of any decently organised State would tolerate being put in a position of being dependent on hearsay and report for knowledge of the intended visits of distinguished visitors to its shores and their public activities while in the country.

The action of the institute in this regard has meant a succession of difficulties and embarrassment, positively harmful to our relations with other Governments and to the impression of this country which we would wish them to have. Some of the cases which have arisen have been very regrettable indeed. I do not intend to worry the House with details, but if an illustration is required it would be difficult to find a better example than the conduct of the institute in connection with the meeting which it held last week.

To that meeting it invited a number of the foreign representatives here in Dublin. The organisers of the meeting knew, of course, in advance that speeches were to be made criticising the decision of the Government out of which the present discussion has arisen, but, to my knowledge, the invitation to the foreign representatives stated the purpose of the meeting to be the discussion of the future of the institute. Instead of that the foreign representatives who went there found themselves attending an organised protest against the action of the Government.

Not only that, but the representatives of the Press not having been invited to the meeting, a report of the proceedings was supplied to the newspapers by the institute itself.

No, it was not.

Well, how was it got? It was supposed to be a private meeting.

The only representative there was a representative of the Irish Press and he did not report it.

This supplied account of the proceedings——

I am questioning that.

——having reported the speeches criticising the Government's decision, went on to say that the meeting was largely attended by the Diplomatic Corps, thereby, no doubt, intending to convey that the foreign representatives went there with foreknowledge of what was to take place and in sympathy with the object of the meeting. No better example could be found of this body's sense of the public proprieties or of the mischievous effect of its activities on our external relations. The professed object of this group is the study of external affairs. Is there any decent citizen who thinks that our relations with other countries are improved by manoeuvres of that kind?

Recently Senator Douglas who, with Mr. Donal O'Sullivan, Mr. Auchmuty and Mr. J. T. O'Farrell, is one of the leading lights of this organisation, said something about the refusal of the Government to recognise the right of anyone to study international affairs except themselves. That is a statement false in every particular. The more interest people take in external affairs the better we like it. What we object to is the misuse of an organisation and a name to endeavour to bring the Government of its own country into contempt and to create embarrassment for it in external relations.

If any Deputy in the House will read in the British Press, for example, what is being said about this meeting they will understand what type of mischief can be done. The aim of this group was to present the Government with a fait accompli and put the Government in the position that they had either to submit to them and allow what they wished to take place or put themselves in the position in which they could be accused of discourtesy to a distinguished visitor.

I am charged with the responsibility for the conduct of the foreign relations of this State. I find a body of this kind carrying on propaganda against the declared policy of the country in a time like this by using a self-assumed title, suggesting that it has a status which it does not possess at all, inviting members of foreign Governments and foreign diplomats over here without the slightest reference to their own Government, thereby creating difficulties and most regrettable incidents between ourselves and other countries —it becomes my duty in such circumstances to make as plain as I possibly can the standing and character of this institute and the views which the Government here has formed of its activities.

That is precisely what was done when the Institute's invitation to Dr. Masaryk was made known to me some days before the proposed meeting. The Deputy has tried to institute a contrast with Trinity College meeting. There is a contrast, that all the proper formalities were taken in the case of Trinity College. These four or five gentlemen want to put themselves above the Government. They think that they are the Government, notwithstanding the decision of the people. As far as we are concerned, that is not a situation that is going to be calmly submitted to. We made clear our official view of this organisation and expressed the wish that Dr. Masaryk should not accept the invitation to address it. Dr. Masaryk adopted the course which I or any other member of the Irish Government would naturally have adopted if the positions had been interchanged and we were visiting Czechoslovakia.

I need hardly say that we have the greatest possible respect for Dr. Masaryk in this country. It was a great pleasure to us to welcome him here, and I regret exceedingly that his visit should have been marred by this matter, which, but for the unfortunate course of conduct which the group controlling this institute have persistently chosen to pursue, need never have arisen at all.

I mentioned the decree in Switzerland and, if the Chair will permit, I should like to read it.

I would like to get in a word or two after you.

By decree of the Federal Council in Switzerland on November 3rd, 1936, organisers of public or private meetings at which foreigners are to speak are obliged to obtain the formal permission of the Department of Justice.

According to this decree, permission will be refused if there is any reason to believe that the internal or external security of Switzerland, the neutrality or independence of the country or the relations of Switzerland with foreign States are in danger or if there is any fear that interference in the internal position of Switzerland or other inconveniences might follow.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.40 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Friday, 10th November, 1944.

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