It is proposed to take business, as on the Order Paper, Nos. 1, 2, 4 and 5. If and when the business on the Order Paper is completed, Private Deputies' business will be taken, as on List No. 4—item 1, resumed.
Order of Business.
Is it not in order to take Private Deputies' time at 12 o'clock to-day?
It is not proposed to do so.
By permission of the House, the Government can take Private Deputies' time.
Well, Sir, I should like to advise the Government that we object to Private Deputies' time not being allowed at 12 o'clock to-day, and if the Government are proposing to take Private Deputies' time I expect that that will be done by means of a motion, and, in proposing such a motion, I would ask the Government to tell the House what is the reason for the urgency of the two Bills mentioned.
I think that the reason for urgency is quite clear.
Is there a motion before the House, Sir?
It has not been formally moved yet.
No, there is no motion before the House. If there were, I presume that it would have been put by the Chair, if necessary, but I think that Deputy Mulcahy's attitude in this regard is unreasonable. During this Session, whole days have been devoted to Private Deputies' business—something that was never done before—and I think that in view of the manner in which the Government have gone out of their way to facilitate Private Deputies at the expense of Public Business, the various Private Deputies who have motions on the Order Paper ought to be prepared to facilitate us now. This Bill, as the House is aware, is very urgent. We cannot allow the present position to continue, and the law must be made clear and definite in regard to the administration of the Military Service Pensions Act.
And the Local Government Bill?
I think that, in these circumstances, it would be unreasonable for Deputies to put their private motions before Public Business. So far as the Government are concerned, if they do propose to take Private Deputies' time to-day, we are quite prepared to give equivalent time next week to Private Deputies' motions.
We are sitting from 10.30 a.m. until 2 o'clock to-day in order to convenience other members of the House, including the Government Party. The Military Service Pensions Bill has been under discussion now for practically two days, and there is no reason why the discussion on that Bill should not be completed by 12 o'clock to-day, considering all that has already been said upon it. At any rate, there are several motions on the Order Paper. We are in the middle of a discussion on housing—a motion that has been on the Order Paper, in Private Deputies' names, since before April, 1944. As a matter of fact, I have gone back before April, 1944, in this matter.
You can go back to December, 1943.
Well, at any rate, it was on the 1944 list. The motion coming after that was also on the Order Paper in April, 1944, and there are six other motions that have been on the Order Paper since September and, probably, earlier than that. Accordingly, I repudiate the Minister's suggestion that any Private Deputies' time has been given at any sacrifice of their own time by the Government. If Private Deputies' time was given by the Government, I suggest that it was due to the fact that the Government had not their business ready.
It seems to me that a most extraordinary principle is being urged upon us now.
There was no agreement to sacrifice Private Deputies' time to-day, and I submit that the discussion on housing is due at 12 o'clock.
So, then, the Government's offer to give time next week is being rejected by the Deputy? As I have pointed out, the Government have endeavoured to meet the Opposition in a reasonable way, and are we now to be told that the Opposition, or, at any rate, the principal Opposition Party, are not prepared to accept that offer which, I submit, is a very reasonable one?
We are asking that Private Deputies' time should be taken to-day.
I think that the Government will have to retain its prerogative in this House of ordering the business of the House. I move that consideration of Public Business be not interrupted at 12 to-day for Private Deputies' Business.
The motion is that the consideration of Public Business be not interrupted at 12 to-day for Private Deputies' Business. I am putting the question——
I oppose that motion, Sir, for reasons that I propose to give. The Government have informed us that they are going to stand over their prerogative in ordering the business of this House. We are going to stand over the prerogative of the ordinary Deputies, with a view to seeing that those things which press on them, and which press on their people, are brought in a formal way before the attention of the House, and through the House, before the country. In order to give themselves the chance of dealing in a fairly systematic, simple way with some of the more pressing problems of the country, the Private Deputies of the various Parties have agreed, as a kind of gentlemen's agreement, not to take more than three hours on the discussion of a Private Deputy's motion.
I submit that, with the increased number of Parties, and therefore an increased number of different points of view in the House, three hours is not an adequate space of time in which to discuss some of the motions on the Order Paper, but Private Deputies have been conveniencing one another and the Government in relation to that matter so that the principal problems that are troubling the country to-day might be brought in a simple and timely way before the House. We agree that the Government has responsibility, but I do not know how the Government Party is discharging its responsibility when it takes up the greater part of three days in discussing the Bill that is before the House— a Bill that is, to some extent, a legacy of mistakes made in the past. If, in the line of pensions, men have to be assisted by pensions to enable them to meet their domestic and other responsibilities because of circumstances in the past, there is also implied in every one of the motions on the Order Paper that as a result of mistakes in the past there are other sections of our people who are suffering in the matter of housing, of agriculture, of poverty, and in many other ways. In view of the general attitude that has been taken up by the Government, of, to a large extent, refusing information when they do hold a commission of inquiry on any particular matter, lying down on the findings of such commissions, and withholding the reports of these commissions from people who require that information urgently, and when an attempt is now being made to straighten up regulations of order in the Dáil that have lasted for 20 years, so as to induce more discipline in the expression of public opinion in the House, I think that the attitude of the Government is unreasonable. We see all these signs around us, and I think that any members of this Dáil who fail to stand by the prerogatives of Deputies in this House, and to open their minds here in a systematic way on what is troubling the House and to bring more vigorously home to the Government the urgent necessity of dealing urgently with some of the major factors of life here, and who allow their opportunities to slip, or are willing to rest on their opportunities in these matters, are false to the promises on which they were elected and have no right to put themselves forward as Parliamentary representatives in this House of the people who elected them.
The motions which have been on the Order Paper for more than six months were put down in an unorganised and unsystematic way by individual Deputies or pairs of Deputies, as applying to conditions in their own constituencies, but, pieced together, they should help to drive home to the Government the general nature of the problem which requires to be dealt with—and dealt with urgently. We were advised this morning that the Local Government Bill was to be taken to-day.
That has not been announced.
We were advised at 10.15 that it would be taken to-day.
By whom?
It was announced in my office.
The Deputy ought, at least, to tell us who informed him that it would be taken to-day.
I was advised from my office that it would be taken to-day. That is denied and I accept the denial completely and withdraw the suggestion. But urgent matters have been reported upon—matters to which we might very well have asked the Government to devote a whole day —which bear urgently on present conditions. Those matters might have been discussed in preference to much of the business which has been before the House since we assembled after Christmas. I am resisting the proposal of the Government to-day so as to warn them that there are matters requiring to be dealt with urgently and to appeal to individual Deputies, who cannot be smothered by the Government Whip, to keep a watch on their prerogatives and to stand over their responsibilities by seeing that Parliament discusses those matters which are vital to the lives of our people, in that way doing the duty which the people sent them here to do. Some of us want to ensure that we shall not fail in that respect.
I should like, if I may, to deal with some of the points which have been raised. May I remind the House of the terms of the announcement which has been made —that as soon as Government Business ordered for to-day shall have been disposed of, the House will take up Private Members' Business. Deputy Mulcahy has said that, in his view, the Bill under discussion would be disposed of by 12 noon. If that really represents his view, what is the purpose of this opposition?
It should be disposed of by that time.
Evidently the view of the Deputy and his Party is that they should have full opportunity to misrepresent the Bill, but that Private Deputies, for whom the Leader of the Opposition is so concerned, who support the Bill, should not have the opportunity to justify their vote in regard to the matter. That is the regard which the Leader of the Opposition has for the rights of Private Deputies. As the question of the rights of Private Deputies has been raised, may I say that in no section of the House is there a greater number of Private Deputies than on this side——
Deputies who are normally silent.
They are just as much concerned for their rights as the members of any other Party, but they have a sense of proportion and put the public interest and public business first. They recognise the urgency of the public business ordered for to-day, and I am sure that, for that reason—a very good reason—the majority of Private Deputies will support the Government in its attitude if this question is put to a vote.
Question put: "That the consideration of public business be not interrupted at 12 noon to-day for the purpose of taking Private Deputies' Business."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 46; Níl, 27.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Breen, Daniel
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick (Co. Dublin).
- Butler, Bernard.
- Carter, Thomas.
- Childers, Erskine H.
- Colbert, Michael.
- Colley, Harry.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- Furlong, Walter.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, James.
- Kissane, Eamon.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Loughman, Frank.
- Lydon, Michael F.
- McCann, John.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moylan, Seán.
- O Briain, Donnchadh.
- O Cléirigh, Mícheál.
- O'Connor, John S.
- O'Grady, Seán.
- O'Loghlen, Peter J.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- O'Rourke, Daniel.
- O'Sullivan, Ted.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Ryan, Robert.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
- Walsh, Laurence.
- Ward, Conn.
Níl
- Beirne, John.
- Bennett, George C.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Browne, Patrick.
- Coburn, James.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Corish, Richard.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Dockrell, Henry M.
- Donnellan, Michael.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Finucane, Patrick.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Halliden, Patrick J.
- Hughes, James.
- Keating, John.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- O'Driscoll, Patrick F.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Reilly, Patrick.
- O'Reilly, Thomas.
- O'Sullivan, Martin.
- Pattison, James P.
- Rogers, Patrick J.
- Spring, Daniel.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kissane and O Briain; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Browne.
Question declared carried.