Deputy Mulcahy, in this matter, referred to the question of finances. For example, he referred to the question of school buildings and the provision of buildings. That is a matter, for example, which I am dealing with at present, dealing directly with the interests concerned. I do not know whether it is proposed or suggested that the question of school buildings for the future should be determined, should be considered and have recommendations made upon it by this council and that then these recommendations should be made public. I have adverted to the difficulty that is likely to arise, particularly in regard to financial matters, where this House is the supreme authority and where the Government alone has the right to put forward proposals for expenditure.
I have referred to the difficulties that naturally will arise if another body is to have the right to recommend proposals for expenditure, and to publish these. It is not as if somebody quite apart from the administration were making such recommendations, because clearly it is envisaged that this council should work in close co-operation with the administration. In fact, it is difficult to say that it would not be part of the administration if the recommendations regarding the setting up of the body made by the Vocational Organisation Commission were carried out in detail. Or take the question of salary scales for teachers. That is a matter of the greatest importance. It is a matter that may have to be examined at some time in the near future, perhaps, let us say, after the emergency. Supposing that this council is set up, and that it examines, and considers itself free to examine, this question of salary scales for teachers and that it makes certain recommendations. As I have indicated, even if the Minister were in sympathy with these recommendations, that is no proof that the Government as a whole may accept them. Nevertheless, in regard to finance or proposals involving finance, it seems to me that the principle is clear that the responsibility must rest with the Minister and with the Dáil, in its turn. If an education council be set up by the Government and entrusted with certain responsibilities, entrusted with power to make recommendations, to consult with the Minister, and to examine educational questions and, if having these powers, such a council should make recommendations upon that particular question, for example, of salary scales for teachers, is it not likely, unless it were made absolutely clear that the functions of the council were to be purely advisory, purely subordinate to the Minister, and that they should have no approach other than through the Minister, that there might arise serious difficulty?
It is stated in the report of the commission that State control is growing in education: "There is the danger that the State may be urged to go beyond its legitimate sphere and to usurp the sacred rights of parents" and so on. If it is suggested that the setting up of this council would prevent such a development, I think the course of events in other countries has made it clear that a national education council in itself will not prevent such a development. But, if it is suggested that there is any danger of developments here contrary to the wishes and intentions of the Irish people, and the ideals and wishes of the Governments that we have had up to the present, I would point out that there are certain safeguards there at present and I think it is not clear from the particular paragraph from which I have read an extract, that these safeguards have been put in their proper perspective if we are to regard this question from the point of view of safeguarding parents and citizens from the danger of usurpation of their rights by the State.
In the first place, we are working under a denominational system of education. The Church has a predominant interest in education. She controls to a very large extent the primary and secondary system. For example, in the case of primary education the schools are owned and controlled by the managers, and the teachers are appointed by them. In the case of secondary education, the schools are almost altogether controlled and managed by the Church, which is, in fact, entirely responsible for them. The only function the State has in connection with either system may be described briefly as supplying the necessary finances, seeing that the work is inspected, that value is being given for the money, and that the curricula for the time being are being followed. If there were any further doubt on that question as to whether we have sufficient safeguard in the control which the Church itself directly exercises at present in the two most important branches of education, you have the fact, as I have said, that you have a forum here in which educational problems from time to time can be discussed, and we have seen that, even if the Oireachtas should pass legislation which is considered to be antagonistic to the Constitution, you have a further safeguard in the way of appeal to the courts. You have sufficient and ample safeguard there, even if the Oireachtas itself should err in not ensuring that the rights of parents and the people generally are safeguarded. I think, therefore, that the principle underlying the establishment of the council will have to be very carefully examined so as to ensure that, if it be set up, there would be no conflict between the Minister and the council; that it would be quite clear that the responsibility for policy rests with the Minister; that he cannot share that responsibility with any other body.
Consultation, as I mentioned on the last occasion, is going on all the time with the different educational interests. It has always been the practice to have these consultations with the most important interests. I have been informed by representatives of some of these interests that they prefer the system of free access to the Minister, direct and candid consultation with him, and free and untrammelled discussion, to this alternative system. From my point of view I feel that it can be argued that the system of consultation leads to more effective and better work and would probably lead to better results than the loose organisation which it is proposed should be set up in the shape of a council of education. It means that the Minister and his staff, who are responsible for the administration of the educational services from the State point of view, can come into direct and immediate-touch with those charged with the running of our schools; with those who are entrusted with direct responsibility for teaching and looking after out pupils. These representatives are persons of practical knowledge. They have the training and experience, they have the special qualifications, which enable them to give advice regarding projects or proposals and, above all, being, by virtue of their positions, in direct touch in a way that outsiders cannot be with the work of the schools, they are in a position to give a very direct, immediate and complete answer to any question that may be put to them regarding developments or reforms. They can immediately answer and give the Minister the benefit of their advice as to the reactions of the proposed reforms or developments on the work of the schools.
Now, if it is suggested that a body is necessary to co-ordinate all the different opinions and to get advice, to make inquiries and to review the position from time to time, we need not confine ourselves to consultation, though that, I believe, is by far the most valuable agency by which proposals can be examined and considered and, if thought worthy, be put into effect. We can set up at any time commissions or inquiries for the special examination of certain questions. The Hadow Commission in England was really in the form of a permanent consultative body, to which the Minister from time to time referred certain important educational problems. That commission, having dealt with one particular branch or with one set of problems affecting education, having spent a considerable period of time examining these, was able to pass on to other fields of inquiry.
As I have said, however, it appears to be clear enough, from the way in which the recommendation is set out here, that the proposed council would not confine itself to mere inquiry. It would have the right to send for officers of the Department, for example, and could question them regarding proposals. It could question them on the methods by which these proposals would be carried out and on any other issues arising there from. Moreover, each year it would review the chief educational activities of the Department and question higher officials on those activities. It would publish a yearly report, dealing with defects or with possible developments in various branches of education. Especially, it would deal with the co-ordination of the whole educational system, from primary school to university, and the relation of primary education to the more important fundamental education as a whole. All these questions would seem to me to lie within the sphere of educational policy entrusted to the Minister for the time being. No doubt, the Minister could from time to time refer questions of the nature mentioned to such a council, but it seems to me that, if the council is to be entrusted here and now with all these responsibilities, it would be difficult to see where the Minister's responsibility for educational administration and policy ends and where the responsibility of the council begins.
Under the vocational education system, which is administered through local statutory committees representing the trades, occupations and professions of the area, the bodies concerned should be familiar with the needs of their respective districts and they should know the wishes of the parents. I think members on all sides of the House will agree that there is popular and democratic control there in the fullest sense. There is an annual congress of the representatives of vocational education and there is a council set up. First, there is the Irish Technical Education Association and, secondly, there is a committee or council of that body. When the Department of Education was asked why we had not set up a consultative council, as contemplated under the Vocational Act of 1930, we replied that, in fact, we regarded the Irish Technical Education Association as a consultative council. The commission, in paragraph 353 of its report, does not consider that this council is adequately representative, or if it is, that it can look after vocational education as a suitable consultative council. The paragraph goes on to state:—
"But this body, representing local vocational education committees, with a standing council including officers employed under such committees, cannot be said to be independent of the Department, for both committees and officers rely on the Department for their grants and the approval of their schemes. Moreover, the association's annual congress; attended by large numbers and with constantly changing personnel, has neither the time nor the means for a thorough review and annual report; the smaller standing council meets very infrequently and cannot be considered an adequate consultative body, which should include persons of national standing representing the universities, secondary education, organised employers and organised labour."
I should have thought that most of those interested, particularly organised employers and organised labour, would be represented in one way or another in the Irish Technical Education Association. However, for the reasons stated by them, the commission did not consider this body to be adequate.
I shall not trouble the House at this stage by going into the comments of the commission on vocational education and technical education generally, but I should like to call the attention of the Dáil to the foreword written by the Most Reverend Chairman of the commission, in which he states that—
"vocational organisations should develop from existing institutions and should follow the laws of organic growth."
Except for the body to which I have just referred and which, I think, can claim to speak for vocational education, there is no body, so far as I know, which can claim to be considered as the basis for the establishment of a council representing primary and secondary education.
