Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 29 May 1945

Vol. 97 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 9—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a sum not exceeding £102,110 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1946, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works (1 and 2 Will, 4, c. 33, secs. 5 and 6; 5 and 6 Vict., c. 89, secs. 1 and 2; 9 and 10 Vict., c. 86, secs. 2, 7 and 9; etc.).

Mr. Dillon

When we adjourned the discussion of the Estimates, I had suggested to the Parliamentary Secretary that the Board of Works, if they want useful public works, might begin by building a new Legislature, secondly, if they want to co-operate with the housing authorities, that they might build a new prison in the outskirts of Dublin and hand the site of Mountjoy over to the housing authority for Dublin City with a view to providing them with an open space whereon to build completely new flat buildings into which the tenants of condemned buildings might be transferred while these condemned buildings were being taken down and their sites used for building proper accommodation. I had suggested to him that the machinery of the Tennessee Valley Authority might be studied by his Department with a view to determining whether it might be profitably adopted in restricted areas in this country.

The only other thing I want to ask him to inform the House about is this: the Minister for Justice has repeatedly told us that it is his intention to provide a new borstal institution as soon as he can get proper accommodation for it, and that, having examined all available premises, he has reached the conclusion that no radical improvement in the borstal institution here can take place unless and until a building specially designed for that purpose is erected. I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether the Department of Justice have bespoken the good offices of his Department in getting this building allocated and erected, and, if so, when we may expect the work to be put in hand. Many applications will be made for all sorts of structures, and we in this House are in this difficulty, that the borstal comes primarily under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Justice, and when we make strenuous representations to him that something should be done about it his reply is that he simply has to await the convenience of the Board of Works, that every other Minister is pressing vigorously for various kinds of accommodation, and that ultimately the decision must be taken by the Minister for Finance. If that contention is correct, I want to put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that there is no public work connected with Government Departments more urgent than that of erecting a borstal, because at present we are trying to operate the borstal system in a prison. The result is that the system is not being properly administered, and that the consciousness of their inability effectively to operate the borstal system in those premises is resulting, in my submission, in a humane relaxation of discipline, which is really threatening the success of the whole administration of the institution. I sympathise with the Minister for Justice that he is reluctant, in the kind of accommodation which is available to him, to enforce the letter of the law.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely that is a matter for the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Dillon

Unquestionably, but it is subject to the difficulty that his defence is that the premises are inadequate and that he cannot get new premises. I want to impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary the urgent necessity for giving early priority to this work. When the work is to be put in hand, I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what is the exact procedure? Who determines the kind of accommodation required, and who designs the accommodation once the plans are put in hand? Recently I was speaking to an authority on the subject of borstal treatment, and one of the first things he said was that an eminently desirable fitting for the rooms in which inmates of a borstal live is that each bedroom should have running water, so that the boys can perform their ablutions in their rooms.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has not the Deputy wandered very far from a Vote in which there is no provision for a borstal institution?

Mr. Dillon

Is there not provision in this Vote for a borstal institution?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think so.

Mr. Dillon

Surely there is? Is not this the Vote for Public Buildings?

An Ceann Comhairle

Only the money for the site is provided in this Vote.

Mr. Dillon

May we not deem that to be a shadow of forthcoming events? Surely if we are discussing a site, we are entitled to discuss what is going to be put on it?

An Ceann Comhairle

But the Deputy wants to discuss how the borstal institution is to be run and how it is to be built. Is not that a matter for the Minister for Justice, whose Vote has already been taken in this House?

Mr. Dillon

The Minister says it is a matter for the Board of Works. If any Minister will get up here and say "I am responsible," I am quite prepared to speak on his Vote, but what I find extremely oppressive is to be run from pillar to post. I used to experience that in regard to the Summerhill place of detention. The Minister for Justice would not be responsible; the Minister for Education would not be responsible, and it took me ten years to run it to earth between the pair of them. I do not want to be put on the same runaround in connection with the borstal; I want some Minister to say he is responsible. I would point out that what might appear to be an unreasonable degree of luxury in a place designed for the incarceration of convicted persons is, in fact, not excessive where you are dealing with the borstal, because the primary purpose of a borstal institution is the reform and moulding of adolescent characters, and the experience of those accustomed to its administration leads me to believe that one of the most vital reforms to be effected with this type of adolescent is the establishment of cleanliness, discipline and regularity, and that once those things are established the future of the boy is pretty well secured.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is not that again a matter for the Minister for Justice?

Mr. Dillon

Very well, then, I ask the Minister for Finance, when he is contemplating the design of the building to be provided, not to be swayed by what might well be the departmental view that a rough and spartan atmosphere is the correct one for an institution of this kind. We have never had in this country a properly equipped borstal institution. Ever since the borstal system was introduced the boys have been housed either in Clonmel Jail or in Cork Jail, with the result that the system in this country has been an inglorious failure. I believe that the greater part of that failure is due to the fact that we have never attempted to provide those responsible for the administration of the system with premises in which they had any hope of getting satisfactory results. We have not had an adequate building for that purpose in this country. I would ask the Minister for Finance, when considering the plans, to send a competent person, one of his architects, to Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to see the kind of premises that are provided there for the effective working of the borstal system. I understand that the borstal system has worked admirably in Great Britain.

An Ceann Comhairle

The working of the borstal system in Great Britain does not come under this Vote. As soon as money is wanted for the building of a borstal institution, there will have to be a Vote for it.

Mr. Dillon

Surely we are not voting money to buy a borstal site if we do not intend to build a borstal institution? We have bought a site for this purpose. Why have we bought a site, if we are not going to build the institution?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not discussing building; he is discussing administration.

Mr. Dillon

I am saying this: the building impinges on administration. The administration is good in Great Britain because the buildings are good in Great Britain. Therefore, I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary to send his architect to see the buildings where the administration has been efficient. That seems to me to be as logical as two and two are four, or four and four are eight. I am aware, with regret, that there is a feeling growing up in the Departments here that the accommodation for this purpose should be rough and ready. It is to counteract that developing sentiment that I raise the matter here to-day. If we put up the wrong type of building at this stage, no matter what kind of personnel we employ hereafter the system is going to fail. The responsibility then of making this very necessary system a success largely devolves upon the Board of Works. I have some knowledge of the personnel available for an institution of this kind, and I have no doubt that if we get the right kind of premises we will get the right kind of personnel. But if we have the wrong kind of premises, no matter what kind of personnel we put into it the thing cannot be made a success. I urge on the Parliamentary Secretary to appreciate the gravity and importance of this matter, and, realising it, first, to stipulate that the building of this borstal will have early priority amongst building schemes which his Department will undertake, and, secondly, to ensure that the architect charged with the responsibility of designing it will have facilities for seeing properly designed institutions in countries where the system has been a manifest success.

Mr. Cogan

I want briefly to refer to the suggestion which has been made in the course of this debate that a new Parliament building should be erected. I hold that such a proposal at the present time is outrageous. The present Government have always impressed me as being extremely shrewd politicians. When they want to put forward any proposal which they know will command a considerable amount of support from the electorate they usually announce that decision with a great flourish of trumpets; they do not approach any other Party in connection with it. But, when they are faced with a situation in which they desire to embark on some proposal which they believe will not command the support of the entire electorate, they put on their most pleasant manner and approach the various Opposition Parties in this House and ask them to sponsor that particular proposal.

Mr. Smith

For example?

Mr. Cogan

In this connection, I know that the Government want to erect a new building for this legislative Assembly and, because they do, they have, I am sure, approached the other Parties and asked them to sponsor the proposal. They want the other Parties to start an agitation for a new building to accommodate Senators and Deputies. Deputy Dillon has, unwittingly, I think, fallen into the trap set for him by the Government. He is advocating something which the Government want but which they had not the courage to advocate.

Mr. Dillon

Is there an implication here that I have been approached by the Government? People ought to learn to say things bluntly. Is that the implication in the Deputy's words?

Mr. Cogan

I have made it quite clear that the Government have approached other Parties in this House in connection with the erection of a new legislative building.

Mr. Dillon

Do you say they have approached me?

Mr. Cogan

If the Ministers have passed over Deputy Dillon, I regret that such an insult has been offered to him.

Mr. Dillon

Willing to wound, but yet afraid to strike.

Mr. Cogan

Deputy Dillon will know whether he was approached or not.

Mr. Dillon

He is a poor fish.

Mr. Cogan

Deputy Dillon was afraid to remain here to hear what I have to say. Whether he was approached or not, he has put forward this ridiculous and absurd proposal. He has endeavoured to make a case for the spending of hundreds of thousands of pounds of the people's money on the erection of a luxurious palace for Deputies and Senators. Do Deputies think that they have deserved or earned such gratitude from the taxpayers that the taxpayers are willing and anxious to come forward and provide them with a new building? If the taxpayers wish spontaneously to make up a subscription amongst themselves by way of a voluntary contribution to provide another House for us we would be ungrateful and ungracious if we refused to accept it. But this is a different kind of proposition. It is a proposition to tax the people in order to provide a more luxurious building for ourselves. I hold definitely that, as long as there is one family housed in a slum tenement in this city, as long as there is one family requiring decent housing accommodation, there should be no attempt made to change from Leinster House. I think that Leinster House is quite adequate to serve all the purposes for which it is required and that it would be criminally wrong to expend public money, which is so urgently needed for other purposes, upon the provision of——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must know that there is no such provision in this Estimate.

Mr. Cogan

I am referring to the suggestion which has been made.

Mr. Smith

We are having a talk about it, anyhow.

Mr. Cogan

One other reason why I should turn down Deputy Dillon's suggestion is that I find that the type of building which our modern architects impose upon us is rather hurtful to the eye. I have no doubt that, if we were to get our engineers and architects to provide us, in Merrion Square or some other square, with a new Parliament building, when they would have finished the work, after spending hundreds of thousands of the people's money, they would leave behind them a building which more than anything else would look like a huge soap-box. That is almost invariably the type of building which we get from our modern architects.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy come now to what is in the Vote, apart from the suggestion of what might be in the Vote in a future year?

Mr. Cogan

Another suggestion has been put forward for the solution of the slum problem, and that is, that a new prison should be erected. A country clergyman, on being transferred some time ago to the chaplaincy of a prison, preached a sermon on the text: "I go to prepare a place for you." Deputy Dillon is going to prepare a place for the slum dwellers of Dublin in Mountjoy Prison. That is the solution he has put forward. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary would consider that worthy of a moment's consideration.

There is provision in this Estimate for a substantial increase, an increase of nearly £2,000, in respect of Arus an Uachtaráin. I would like to know the cause of that increase. There is also an increase of close on £1,000 in connection with the Houses of the Oireachtas, and I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to explain how the increase has come about.

In regard to the workers employed by the Board of Works at weekly wages, I would like to know how they are recruited, or if there is any special system of recruiting employees. I would also like to know the recognised system of getting building work done, whether it is invariably done by contract and if the contracts are adequately advertised. I would like to know if any work has been done by the Board of Works by direct labour and, if so, whether the Parliamentary Secretary has taken the opportunity to compare the cost of the work done by direct labour with that done by contract. Such a check is always desirable.

I am glad to see that there is some provision, though it is a limited provision, in this Vote in regard to arterial drainage. The Parliamentary Secretary might give us some information as to whether any progress has been made in the implementing of the Arterial Drainage Act. The country is urgently awaiting a rapid development in connection with work under that Act, particularly in view of the employment situation.

Mr. Hughes

Under sub-head J (7) there is provision, which appears to be an annual provision, of £4,800—a similar amount was provided last year —for gauges and meters, and I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if that is for existing gauges and meters that are more or less permanent on rivers like the Barrow, or if it is for the purpose of making surveys for future work. If it is for new work, would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what rivers are at present under observation, where these meters are being used to ascertain the flow and volume of water? We appear to be very slow in getting off the mark in regard to the provision of work under the Arterial Drainage Act. I know that it is a very big problem and the Parliamentary Secretary has indicated to the House that the completion of the whole scheme of arterial drainage is a very long-term proposition. However, there are some rivers where the problem is acute and I would draw his attention to that. I do not want to be unreasonable, as I appreciate the volume of work to be done and the difficulty of getting priority.

I have in mind a particular river, the River Barrow, where very serious hardship occurs in some towns and villages at periods of high flooding, which has been accentuated by the Barrow drainage in the upper reaches of the river. The water comes down very rapidly, there is a rapid rise, and people in Carlow, Muinebeag and Leighlinbridge experience great hardship. The general opinion of local engineers who have examined this problem is that it is due to the canalisation of the river and the fact that you have weirs along the river. It is suggested that if it were possible to provide sluice gates for flood periods to let the water through, it would nearly solve the problem of flooding. I think that representations have been made to the Department, and that there has been a request to the Minister to receive a deputation in regard to the matter. I do not know whether anything has come out of that or not.

In view of the magnitude of the whole drainage problem of the country and the fact that problems of this sort are unlikely to be tackled in the near future, surely the Department should consider, as part of the arterial drainage scheme, the easing of problems of that type, pending the final drainage of the whole basin. That is a very urgent matter. Apart altogether from the damage that is done from the agricultural and food producing point of view, there is very serious hardship caused almost annually—and in this last winter, particularly—to small families living in houses adjoining the Barrow and in the towns along the river. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary appreciates the after-effects of that hardship, the danger to young families from damp houses and damp conditions, especially in regard to diseases such as tuberculosis. That is a matter which cannot be overlooked, and if the Parliamentary Secretary could ease the situation temporarily by the provision of sluice gates to deal with the flood water, I would impress on him the necessity of having the matter examined in the near future. I had a discussion with him before about this matter and I do not think he held out very much hope that we could expect a scheme for the lower reaches of the Barrow at an early date.

This problem is not merely one that applies to this particular river. It applies generally to rivers where a certain amount of work would give temporary relief. I can assure the Minister that I am not singling out one river alone in this respect, and that there are sluggish-flowing rivers where flooding occurs in the lower reaches, even where there is no canal operating at all. In those cases, certain relief could be provided so as to reduce flooding. In view of the long-term policy and the amount of waiting that is involved, some provision should be made to relieve, as far as possible, the hardship which these people are suffering at present.

Mr. Smith

During the short discussion on this Estimate I have been invited to do all kinds of things. Deputy Dillon has requested me to build a new prison, so that the old institution of Mountjoy could be used for the purpose which he stated. I will not build a new prison because I have not, and the Office of Public Works has not, been instructed by the Government to do so. The Deputy also mentioned that we might think of building new Government offices. Deputy Cogan does not take kindly to that proposal, apparently. Again, that is not a matter for the Office of Public Works. It is a matter of major policy to be decided by the Government. If the Government decide to build a new prison or to embark on the erection of Government offices, we shall no doubt receive instructions from them and we shall endeavour to carry out those instructions to the best of our ability.

The same applies to the other matter to which Deputy Dillon referred—the provision of a borstal institution. Provision has been made for the purchase of a site. In all these matters we are the agent department and we act entirely upon the instructions of the Minister who is responsible. If the Minister for Justice wants a building of this nature he tells us about it and gives us some idea of the centre where he would like it to be erected. He gives us an idea of the general requirements and our architects endeavour to conform to the instructions given. We have not got the site yet. When we have procured a site satisfactory to the Department of Justice we will get further instructions. Plans will then be prepared and submitted to the Department of Justice and, after consultation with the Minister and the Department, the erection of the building will be proceeded with.

To the Deputies who addressed themselves to the problem of arterial drainage, I can only say that the appointed day has been fixed, and since March 31st we have been endeavouring to build up our staff. At the moment we are completing the plans and drawings for the Brosna catchment. We are engaged also in survey work on the Glyde and the Dee. We have not, as I indicated in my opening remarks, made any provision for starting work, for the reason that we have not the necessary machinery or plant. There are other factors, but even if we had the plant to-morrow I am sure Deputies will realise that we could not undertake a scheme of that kind now. My experience is, that in the rural areas anyhow it is very difficult to get workers for the essential operations in order to provide turf and sow the crops. I am sure it will be agreed by all Deputies that however important arterial drainage may be, these other operations are much more important to us now.

Mr. Hughes

Is the plant on order?

Mr. Smith

We have been trying for years to get certain types of plant that is essential before we can make a start on arterial drainage schemes. We have been unable to purchase that essential plant. Immediately it comes on the market we shall try to get it.

Mr. Hughes

Does that mean that you have not placed any orders yet?

Mr. Smith

The orders have been placed long ago. I would like to make a start as quickly as possible, but even if we could lay our hands on the machinery we require, there are other factors that have to be considered before we embark on the scheme.

I take it the item about which Deputy Cogan sought an explanation was one of maintenance of the buildings to which he referred. So far as employment is concerned, the men are normally recruited through the labour exchanges. Most of the work carried out by the Board of Works is done through contract. I think that covers all the points raised.

Mr. Hughes

I raised one point about temporary relief works.

Mr. Smith

I know the kind of case Deputy Hughes has in mind. I am prepared to concede that there are certain towns, such as those which he men tioned and some other towns which I know, that are affected from time to time by flooding.

Mr. Hughes

Kilkenny has the same problem.

Mr. Smith

Kilkenny, yes. We cannot be asked to regard these problems as problems that we should be called upon to deal with. We were not responsible for placing Kilkenny in its present situation.

Mr. Hughes

That is hardly a convincing argument. It is there, you see, and that is the trouble, and apparently you are not prepared to shift it.

Mr. Smith

There is this point to be made in support of what I have said. Recently in a very important town in the Midlands a new industry was established, or rather a building was erected to house an old industry. It is situated convenient to a river, and for some reason or other it appears that the building was erected without regard to the high water level of the river. At certain times of the year there is flooding, and damage may result both to the building itself and the work that is being carried out in it. Could it reasonably be suggested, in the course of six or 12 months, or even in two years' time, that we should be driven as a result of that situation from the course of work that we have mapped out for ourselves? I am prepared to admit that you have, in the points raised by Deputy Hughes and other Deputies, certain problems that must be dealt with, but I doubt very much if they should be dealt with under the Arterial Drainage Act.

Mr. Hughes

Surely. How can they be dealt with otherwise?

Mr. Smith

These are matters that can be discussed on some other occasion. I can give no assurance to the Deputy now that we will be able in the near future or, in fact, in the next five, ten or 15 years, to come to the rescue of the centres he has in mind through any operations under the Act.

Vote put and agreed to.