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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Jul 1945

Vol. 97 No. 25

Committee on Finance. - Vote 7—Old Age Pensions.

Proinnsias Mac Aodhagáin

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £2,535,250 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1946, chun Pinsean Sean-Aoise (8 Edw. 7, c. 40; 1 agus 2 Geo. 5, c. 16; 9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 102; Uimh. 19 de 1924; Uimh. 1 de 1928; Uimh. 18 de 1932 agus Uimh. 26 de 1938); chun Pinsean do Dhaill (Uimh. 18 de 1932 agus Uimh. 26 de 1938); agus chun Costas Riaracháin áirithe bhaineas leo san.

There is practically no change in the cost of old age pensions.

Has the Minister any explanation as to the number of cases of appeal still waiting investigation?

I have not.

Is the Minister satisfied that it is not due to insufficient staff?

That is a matter for the Minister for Local Government.

I understood that appeals were largely a matter for the Revenue Commissioners.

No. Appeals are largely a matter for the Minister for Local Government, who is the deciding authority.

Can the Minister say why there is a decrease of £10,000? It is not due to an excessive means test being applied in connection with those claims?

It is a matter of the number of weeks in which the pensioners were paid.

Are we allowed to discuss the question of old age pensions here?

It is rather a coincidence that since a new Parliamentary Secretary was appointed in connection with old age pensions we find that there is an excessive means test being adopted in connection with old age pensions applications. I will give the Minister three or four cases in which pensions have been refused on the grounds that the applicants did not comply with the statutory regulations as to means. One man is in receipt of 10/- a week pension. His wife is 74 years of age. On compassionate grounds the county manager, rather than see that man in receipt of home assistance, decided to give him employment, but he found that owing to his bad sight he was unable to continue in that employment on public boards. His wife then made a claim for old age pension, but the investigation officer decided that, on account of his 10/- a week pension and the few months' work from the public board, she was not entitled to it. Their income for that particular year was something like £40, but for the previous year they had only £26 and 5/- home help. Another man who was in receipt of 7/6 disablement benefit and 7/6 home assistance, was allowed only a small pension. I could quote numerous cases in the last 12 months where, in the case of fresh applications, appeals were made to the pensions committee, and the pension officer's decision has been upheld in the Department of Local Government. At the present time Deputies are debarred from interviewing the appeals officer. I am not making any complaints about that; the appeals officer always acted fairly whether a Deputy made representations or not. What I am suggesting is that a circular must have been sent to the investigation officers, because in my 22 years' experience I have never previously known investigation officers to put as high a valuation as they are putting at the present day on the perquisites of which applicants are in receipt. We have public bodies passing resolutions appealing to the Government to abolish this means test. At present, people with property can transfer it to their relatives, and after two years they are entitled to draw a pension, but the poor person who receives a small amount from national health or home assistance is immediately debarred. That is reckoned as income. It was never so reckoned prior to last year when the new Parliamentary Secretary was appointed. Since his advent this new means test has been adopted to prevent people from receiving the maximum amount which the Act allows.

Was it the policy of the Revenue Department to send out special instructions last year to increase the valuation of labourers' cottages and plots? These cottages and plots are, in some cases, let at a rent of 1/- a week. The valuation put on them by the investigation officer is 2/6 a week. When the local pensions committees make recommendations in these cases they find that they are of very little avail, because in nine cases out of ten the decision of the investigation officer is upheld by the Department of Local Government. Public bodies throughout the country have unanimously passed resolutions asking the Government, in view of the hardships which are being endured by the poor people in my area and other areas, to abolish this means test. Surely, it is not fair that the investigation officer should reckon as means the 5/-, 6/-, or 7/- a week which some of these people receive in the form of home assistance. I understood that under the Act neither national health insurance nor home assistance was to be reckoned as means, and yet it is calculated as income in this figure of £39 a year. In my own constituency, and I am sure in many other constituencies, there are many complaints in regard to the manner in which claims for old age pensions are being treated. The means test is being applied far too rigidly to prevent deserving people from getting the miserable pension of 10/- a week.

I would like to support Deputy Everett's appeal on this question of the means test as it applies to old age pensions. Possibly the investigation officers are governed by the regulations. I know a man who has a pension of 6/- a week. He is the owner of a one-storey house with a valuation of about £4 a year, and by reason of that he is losing 2/- a week pension. The pension should really be 8/- a week. That represents a loss of £5 a year to him. He is a single man, the last of his family. He bought this house some years ago to have a home for himself. He worked hard all his life, and the loss of this 2/- a week has been a big disappointment to him. He was a man who was buyed up with the hope that when he qualified he would get the full pension of 10/-. He is a man who was never accustomed to receive anything from Government Departments or local bodies. I think this matter of the means test is one in which some change should be made.

I want to join in the appeals made by other Deputies for the abolition of this means test. This is a most important Vote and I think we should have a full House to discuss it. To my mind it is more deserving of discussion than some of the matters that were discussed here during the last three days. The old age pensioners are deserving of every consideration from the Minister and the Government, many of them being the parents of young men who fought in 1916. This Government, like the previous Government which cut down the old age pensions, has made the great mistake of making paupers of the aged people. In my town I find that the majority of the inmates in the county home are old age pensioners. They could not live outside on the pension. As inmates of the county home they are allowed out of their pensions 7/- a fortnight to buy tobacco. The Minister, instead of issuing vouchers, should give a decent pension to the old people. A lot of money could be saved on the cost of paper in that way. Give the old age pensioners £1 or 25/- a week, and do not have them going to the shops with vouchers for so many ounces of butter and so many loaves of bread. In the shops they have to take what they are handed because they have not the ready cash. I worked for a very decent employer, who could only give his retired workers a pension of 6/- a week since, if he gave more, the means test would be applied and the old age pension of 10/- would be cut down.

We have no more deserving people than the old age pensioners. I am receiving letters every day in the week from people in the rural parts of my constituency. The case was brought to my notice lately of a man who, some years ago, was evicted from his farm. His sons have now got back the farm, but the father has nothing and has been refused the old age pension. The excise officer told me that the man's wife owns the land, and yet he will not give the old age pension to her husband. It was recommended by the local pensions committee. I know another case, an old woman, the wife of a road worker, who was granted a pension of only 5/- a week. Her husband has the miserable wage of £1 19s. 6d. a week, or a 1/- a week less than the agricultural rate of wages. I think this thing will have to be looked into. It might be well if the money that is being spent on sending inspectors around the country to look after the stamping of eggs were applied to the benefit of these old people. There are many old people through the country whose sons were killed in the last war. They were granted pensions by the British Government, and now they find that the means test is being applied in their cases.

I know of one man who had a pension of 8/10 from the British Government for the loss of his son who died as a result of gas poisoning in the last war. When that man came to the age of 70 he was told that he could be allowed only 16/- a week to live on and his old age pension was adjusted accordingly. That is a thing that I could never understand. The British Government in that case were giving this man 8/10 and the Irish Government then operated a means test in his case and deducted a corresponding amount from his old age pension. We hear a lot about all the great things that have been done for the country. I think the meanest thing that was ever done was to operate a means test against old people. During the summer-time the allowance of turf is reduced. Would it not be a good thing that they should be allowed that turf during the summer so that they might have it to supplement their winter allowance? In the general elections of 1944 there were great rumours abroad that the old age pensioners were going to get £1 a week.

That could not be done without legislation.

All the Parties were promising that they were going to give the old age pensioners £1 a week. That was in order to get votes.

Whatever the Deputy does outside, he cannot come in here and advocate legislation upon the consideration of an Estimate.

He is not. He is only saying that people promised it but are not doing it.

That is just what I am trying to say, but like all promises, that promise was broken.

Surely Deputy Allen did not say that.

Every one of the Ministers said it. They all said it.

They made these promises.

I thought it was £3 a week.

It was 64/-.

Of course, the man who was saying that is not in the House and was not in my constituency when he was saying that.

That was the time they had the gold mine in Wicklow.

I think it was Peadar Cowan or somebody who was preaching the £3 a week doctrine.

One of Deputy Davin's Party.

Deputy Davin will answer for that.

It would not be too much for a decent man.

It is not a bad policy, mind you.

You can joke all right, but it is no joke for the people outside who are trying to live on 10/- a week. If the Government want to give credit for anyone, it should be to the old people of the country. I had a case in Kilmuckridge of a man who was in receipt of an old age pension of 3/6 a week and he did not get that pension until he was 74, whatever mistake was made. Deputy Allen may know the man I refer to. In the rural districts there is a further means test. An extra half-crown is allowed in the rural districts, but every old age pensioner in the rural districts does not get that half-crown. In Wexford, a woman who applied for the additional half-crown was refused because her son had the agricultural rate of wages. I regard that as a very mean policy.

I think it will be the best day's work for this Dáil when it increases old age pensions. We are told by the Minister's representative that it would cost £500,000 to increase the pensions. That would be the best spent money that this Dáil ever voted. We are told that the emergency is over. I wonder will there be a further reduction and will the allowances given to old age pensioners be scrapped? I should like to see the pensions given entirely by way of cash through the post office. The country can afford money for everything and no one will grumble about giving the old age pensioners a decent stipend that they can live on. I hope the Minister will reply to my remarks when he is concluding the debate. There is not a quorum in the the House at the present time although this important debate is in progress. Is that not a disgrace? But last night and the night before we had a full House. Because the case of the old age pensioners is now being debated Deputies do not want to listen.

Seven Fianna Fáil Deputies out of 77.

When this Government were seeking power they promised the people that if they were elected they would be the poor people's friends. I think it is a disgrace to a country like this to see old age pensioners asked to exist on 10/- a week. Great play is made about the small perquisites that these people have but, as one who is in touch with the poor people week after week, I have been more than surprised to see the way they are treated in a Christian country. There is money for everything but for the old age pensioners, the blind pensioners, widows and orphans and the sick poor. I say we are a disgrace not only to ourselves but to the rest of the world when we see a Government like this, that came out so gloriously and told the people that if they were returned to power the poor people would never see another poor day. I am ashamed to say I am an Irishman.

I should like to support some of the views put forward by Deputy Everett. In the first place, I think it is wrong that account should be taken of the little industry of the rural worker in a cottage in the country. He is producing goods, occupying his time. He has gone off the labour market and surely if he does produce something for his own needs we should not have investigation officers going around to make him account for the little that he does in that way.

Another point is that if a man goes off the labour market there should not be the delay there now is in giving him the old age pension to which he is entitled. I hope the day will come when, instead of a system of old age pensions, the social services will be so improved that there will be a contributory retiring allowance for every man who labours and that every man can look forward to some measure of comfort in his old age in return for the work he has given to the nation.

I should like the Minister to say what speed has been attained in the decision of old age pension cases by the new Order made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health.

That question must be addressed to the Minister for Local Government.

That is a matter of appeals and is for the Minister for Local Government.

I am afraid Deputy McCarthy, in advocating contributory old age pensions on this particular Vote, was slightly out of order.

I was anticipating.

It is administration that is usually debated on an Estimate and there have been no new instructions issued in regard to the means test, which is the one criticism of the administration that was made during the debate.

During the last year?

The assessing officers are going on the instructions that have been in operation for a long number of years. Deputy Coburn spoke of the man in a cottage having the cottage assessed as worth 2/- a week. Well, there is a standard assessment, based on the valuation, and it has not changed for years.

It was changed under the Cottage Purchase Act, where the tenant purchased the cottage.

I know, but I am not responsible for that here.

No, it is the Minister for Local Government and Public Health who is responsible.

Another question was raised by my friend from Wexford, who spoke about the benefits in kind being taken into account. They are not taken into account in the estimate of means, where the person is living in the house. If one of a married couple owns a farm, the income of both is combined and half is attributable to each, so that in the case of a man working on the roads and the wife on the farm, she could not be any better treated than in getting 5/- a week.

She has not a farm.

The Deputy stated the man was working on the roads and the wife on a farm.

The road worker has no farm.

The Deputy said the wife had.

Because he is working for the county council, he can get only 5/-.

Vote put and agreed to.
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