Tairgim:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £13,300 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir á thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1946, chun Seirbhíse Seicréidí.
There is no change.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 18—Secret Service.
Proinnsias Mac Aodhagáin
What is the amount spent?
£20,000.
What was the amount spent for the latest year for which there are figures? I am raising this question because, on a couple of previous occasions, I asked why we were asked to raise a sum of £20,000 every year over a long period of years since the Government came into office, while at the same time, as far as I know, not even half that amount has been spent.
In 1943-44, the sum asked for was £7,000 odd; in 1942-43, it was £11,000 odd, and in 1944-45, it was £20,000 and the same for 1945-46. It was explained in 1944-45, of course, that there were certain special circumstances which justified the increase from £7,700 to £20,000. Now that the European phase of the war is over and the same circumstances and conditions do not prevail, I would like the Minister to tell us why it is necessary to estimate this year for a sum of £20,000. Can he give the House any indication that this amount will be reduced next year or can he satisfy the House that conditions have changed so as to warrant a very substantial reduction in the amount of this Estimate?
Could the Minister give any indication as to how this money has been spent within the last year, or even within the last three months? This question of the secret service is very important, if it has been used in the way that Secret Service Votes have been used all over the world. This is a lump sum placed at the disposal of the Government for the time being and it is a very important matter as to how it is spent. I would like to put the same question to the Minister as the Comptroller and Auditor General would like to put— has it been spent in the interests of the State? I feel that that phrase is a very loose one; we have indications that "the interests of the State" is confused with "the interests of Parties". Some people say that the State is represented by a peculiar unit within the country which has the exclusive right to decide what is in the State interest and what is not, and they confuse the interests of the State with the interests of a Party. I would like an assurance from the Minister that this money has been utilised in the interests of the State and not in those of a Party.
Deputy Davin asked what was the expenditure last year. It was £16,505.
Was that not the cause of a bit of inflation in certain circles?
It might have been getting rid of some of our sterling assets. Deputy Roddy asked why £20,000 was in this Estimate, since the European war is over. This may be a Secret Service Vote, but it is no secret to Deputy Roddy, who was a Minister for a long time, that Estimates are prepared around November.
If last year the service cost only £16,000, why estimate £20,000 this year?
It was estimated in October or November of last year that it would cost £20,000. I do not know what Deputies are complaining about. It was a very cheap neutrality, to get off for £20,000 a year.
It was not £20,000 in 1942 or 1943 and we were neutral at that time also.
It was to protect this State against enemies foreign and domestic, in conjunction with other defence measures, and if Deputies would exercise just a little sense of proportion they would not talk so much about the size of this Vote. It is the smallest in proportion to the size of similar Votes in any other country in the world.
Will the Minister give the assurance for which I have asked?
If I were to tell the Deputy what I think of him for asking for such an assurance——
Would I be allowed to tell the Minister what I think of him?
If you like.
It would be better to keep within the bounds of decorum. Is Vote No. 18 agreed to?
No, not in view of the attitude adopted by the Minister.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Tá: 42; Níl: 18.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Brady, Seán.
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick (Co. Dublin).
- Butler, Bernard.
- Carter, Thomas.
- Childers, Erskine H.
- Colbert, Michael.
- Colley, Harry.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Friel, John.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, James.
- Kissane, Eamon.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Lydon, Michael F.
- Lynch, James B.
- McCann, John.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- Moylan, Seán.
- O Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Grady, Seán.
- O'Loghlen, Peter J.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Ryan, Robert.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Ua Donnohadha, Dómhnall.
- Walsh, Laurence.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Con.
Níl
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Coburn, James.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Davin, William.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Everett, James.
- Halliden, Patrick J.
- Keating, John.
- Keyes, Michael.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Norton, William.
- O'Donnell, William F.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Reilly, Thomas.
- Roddy, Martin.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kissane and O Briain; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Keyes.
Question declared carried.