Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Jul 1945

Vol. 97 No. 25

Committee on Finance. - Vote 66—League of Nations.

Minister for External Affairs (The Taoiseach)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £8,764 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1946, for a Contribution towards the Expenses of the League of Nations.

The sum of £8,764 provided in this Vote represents the amount of our contribution to the expenses of the League of Nations in respect of the year 1944. Deputies know the present position as regards the League of Nations. The Charter signed at San Francisco some time ago provided for the setting up of a world organisation on different lines, so that it must be expected in the near future that steps will be taken to dissolve the League of Nations, of which this country was, and is still, a member.

This is probably not the last Estimate which the Dáil will be asked to vote in respect of the League of Nations. The sum now proposed covers, as I have said, our contribution in respect of the year 1944. The expenses of the League for the present calendar year, or for that portion of it during which the League remains, will have to be met, and we shall have to bear our share. It may be necessary, therefore, to ask the Dáil to vote a further and final contribution to the expenses of the League of Nations next year, so that we may have fulfilled our obligations as a member of the League right up to the end.

General Mulcahy

I do not think there will be any objection from any part of the House for continuing the grant to the League of Nations until such time as it is wound up. The last report of the Secretary to the League of Nations, published in the beginning of the year, indicated, as the Taoiseach has said, that the United Nations Organisation is likely to be the organisation in the world to which will pass in time the functions and responsibilities, in perhaps an elaborated or different form, which up to the present have been borne by the League of Nations, so that the problems for which it had been attempting to find a solution will fall to the new organisation for solution. That leads me to ask a question which I asked when we were discussing the Vote for the Department of External Affairs. The question is, whether in view of the importance of the work that it is contemplated will be done by the United Nations Organisation, and the extensive nature of the Charter that has been adopted by the large number of nations that assembled at San Francisco and of the difficulty of our people getting a copy of that Charter now, the Government would consider having the Charter printed as a White Paper. We are voting a considerable sum of money running into close on £8,000 for the League of Nations plus sums of £6,000 or £8,000 already passed for the International Labour Organisation which is so closely connected with the League of Nations. I suggest that the cost of printing the Charter would be a very small sum to add, especially in view of the importance of the Charter and of the general information that we want to give to our people with regard to the trend of these things in the world. I think that, to do so, would indicate a desire on our part to continue the good intent that we had regarding our desire to co-operate in a progressive and peaceful way with the world at the time that we entered the League of Nations.

There is a further question that I want to ask the Taoiseach: It arises out of a suggestion that I gathered from him when he was speaking on the Vote for External Affairs. What I gathered from him was that it was not likely we would enter normally into general conferences held among the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations until the war with Japan, and the general war situation, had completely stopped. I do not know whether I gathered that impression correctly or not, but I would like to ask him definitely whether, in relation to any consultations carried on under the aegis of the United Nations Organisation, it is his intention that he would not sit down at any consultations with the nations representing the United Nations Organisation until the war with Japan has ceased. I think it would be quite unnecessary and undesirable, if the opportunity arose, to wait until then.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now back on the Vote for External Affairs.

General Mulcahy

No. I am on the League of Nations and on our work and co-operation with the League of Nations and with the organisation which by agreement, almost by planning on the part of the League of Nations itself, is actually going to take its place. I could read from the last report of the Secretary of the League a paragraph that I think would satisfy the Chair on the matter, if the Chair required to be satisfied. It is not my intention to labour the point, and I do not intend to go into any elaborate discussion on it. I am suggesting that I think it would be desirable, if the opportunity presented itself, that we should take part in consultations which would help in any way to broaden support for us, or which would give us a clear way of showing to the world that we were anxious to support the policies and the ideals that are enshrined in the preamble to the Charter, and that we would not wait until the last sword had been sheathed in China and Japan before taking that step. I am encouraged in urging this point when I read in this morning's newspapers that an emergency Order has been issued which removes disabilities that war vessels belonging to belligerents would labour under in entering Irish ports. If warships of any of the belligerents may, under certain conditions, enter Irish ports to-day, I am sure we should not place an unconditional restriction on ourselves that we would not sit down in international conference to-morrow, with these ideals to be pursued, if we got an opportunity to do so.

Mr. Blowick

On the debate on External Affairs I glossed over a subject with which I wish to deal more fully now, that is, the question of the League of Nations. We have been a member of the League of Nations for a number of years and, personally, I do not see what great benefits have accrued to us from that membership. It has never been explained to me what has come of it. The suggestion I made on the Vote for External Affairs was that there should come from this country a proposal that the small nations of the world should band themselves into a league for their mutual protection, benefit and welfare, as against world domination by three or four welter-weight Powers— Powers that make all kinds of promises to small nations but that, for some reason or other, are utterly unable to come to their rescue when they are up to their eyes in trouble. We know very well that world war No. 2 was supposed to have been fought in order to save Poland. Promises were made by many nations that they would go to the rescue of Poland but to-day the plight of Poland is worse than when Poland was invaded.

I want to put it before the Taoiseach that the time has come in world affairs when the small nations will definitely have to band themselves together for their own protection. The map of the world shows that there are three or four big nations definitely dominating the whole world. They do their best to broadcast propaganda to the effect that if the smaller nations do not align themselves with one or other of these big Powers they will be helpless; that they depend on the big Powers for life and for trade. That is not the case. That situation reminds me of the circumstances that existed in this country some 50 or 60 years ago; when the small farmers and the rural population were up against the landlord system. At that time we were held in a vice, the iron grip of a handful. It was considered impossible that the farmers could free themselves from the servitude they found themselves in as a result of mal-administration by the ruling power.

I think it would be a very wise move to form a league of small nations, and I would ask the Taoiseach to consider the suggestion for what it is worth. In view of the fact that we are a young State—an infant State, if you like to call it that—it would be a wonderful thing if we could make advances to several of the small countries of Europe. If one glances at the map of the world, one finds there is a preponderance of small States as against a few big Powers. At the present time one can say that the world is virtually ruled by England, America and Russia. One finds that the British Commonwealth is made up of a number of small dependent States or small nations seeking greater liberty and freedom. In Asia, the same applies. There is a vast number of small States that, for want of association and common ideal, are inclined to fight and wrangle among themselves, thus giving a chance to some big Power to exploit them.

The second world war has taught us the fate of small nations in Europe. Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, were overrun. In the first world war, Belgium was the victim. If small nations grouped together they could definitely force the big nations to recognise them, because if they stood loyally to one another in any kind of world crisis, they could pull more weight than any combination of great Powers. The great Powers have their own causes of difference among themselves. We all know that they are out for world domination. It is common knowledge that Germany started the war so that she might dominate the world. It is obvious that England and America and Russia are trying to dominate the world to-day. A combination of small States that of themselves cannot create a great fighting force on land, sea or air could bring some of these giants to their senses, provided there was loyalty and co-operation amongst them. It would be a very fine thing. Big nations have the disadvantage of being unwidely, whereas small nations, as a rule, are fairly well developed and compact, and are better able to manage their own affairs. I think there would be a greater spirit of comradeship amongst the small nations if a proper case were put up.

I do not mean that the small nations should band themselves together for any aggressive purpose, but for their own benefit. The big Powers would have us believe that they represent the only market, that they represent the only resort for emigrants in cases where the small countries cannot find employment for their adult population. If there were more co-operation between the small nations, we might find that they would absorb each other's produce. I do not see why they could not trade with one another. That would be the most effective threat to any future aggressor. It might be much more effective than any league of nations. The last League of Nations burst up simply because it was dominated by one or two big Powers. I am afraid the same will happen in any future league of nations. For that reason, I think nothing good would result from money spent on such a league that would be a kind of mixed grill of big, medium and small nations.

I put this suggestion before the Taoiseach, for what it is worth, in the spirit of offering something constructive and helpful, that might redound to this country's credit and help to solve the very problem that the Taoiseach has been discussing in the last two days, which is the burning question in this country and which we would all wish to have settled.

Mr. Norton

I want to ask the Taoiseach some questions. While we were a member of the League of Nations, the League, in pursuance of its policy of endeavouring to punish aggressors, imposed sanctions on Italy. Italy, in a most shameless manner, violated the independence of Abyssinia and, unfortunately, we were associated—not very creditably—with the recognition of the conquest of that small nation by the forces of aggression which Italy unleashed on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That was not in the past 12 months. That was some years ago.

Mr. Norton

That is so, but we are apparently going to close down this institution known as the League of Nations. I want to ask the Taoiseach whether we cannot have a cleaner name in that respect before the shop is actually closed. We then recognised the King of Italy—now happily deposed and his aggressive régime with him—as the Emperor of Ethiopia but, as he has ceased to be a king and is having a rather precarious existence these days, and as the whole Fascist régime in Italy has crumbled in the dust, I wonder if the Taoiseach would tell us now whether we still continue to recognise either the deposed king in Italy or any of his successors there as the Emperor of Abyssinia.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is not that External Affairs?

Mr. Norton

It is.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a Vote for the League of Nations.

Mr. Norton

The League of Nations also is External Affairs.

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Norton

At any rate, that is my question. Do we still recognise the deposed king or the prospective king of Italy as the Emperor of a happily free Abyssinia?

I have a second question to put. The Taoiseach has seen from the Press, and knows through the Department, that a charter known as the World Security Charter has been signed extensively, arising out of the discussions at San Francisco. Very many nations have been most anxious to subscribe to the declarations contained in that charter. We have not yet subscribed and I would like to ascertain from the Taoiseach whether this country proposes to make any application for the purpose of subscribing the signature of this country to the declarations which were embodied in the San Francisco Charter. This is a new effort to build a world organisation, in which it is hoped it may be possible to avoid a repetition of the horrible military catastrophe inflicted on the world during the past six years. I would like to ascertain what our intentions are in connection with the charter and what immediate steps the Taoiseach intends to take, as Minister for External Affairs, in connection with that matter.

General MacEoin

In moving this Vote, the Taoiseach told us it was, in his opinion, the final Vote, though he also said it may be necessary to apply for a further Vote to wind up. I would like to keep my remarks within the ambit of that particular statement. When he asks this Parliament to vote certain moneys for a set purpose, he should inform us exactly what has happened in world affairs. I think the Taoiseach should have given us a funeral oration over the grave of the League of Nations. It would be well if he had given a certificate setting out the cause of death. It would also have been wise to keep us informed as to the disabilities it suffered under during its life. It was a child born in the storm of war and it had great possibilities. Many small nations and many great nations expected great things of it, but they did not materialise.

When the Taoiseach was President of that body at one time, he took a very positive view and gave expression to very great thoughts, which brought admiration not only from his friends but even from those who thought differently from him. I felt that, when the League of Nations Vote was being moved this evening, the Taoiseach would keep all that in mind and would give the House a summary of its activities. He failed to do so and left Deputy Blowick to ask what benefit we got from the League. If the Taoiseach had discharged his duty properly, Deputy Blowick would not have been compelled to ask that question. We might have been shown that the League of Nations had done a good deal of work in the interests of world peace and to establish the rights of small nations. The Taoiseach could have told us why the rights, when established, were not maintained.

I do not want to develop an argument on this particular Vote, except in so far as the Taoiseach has asked for certain moneys to defray the expenses he feels called upon to discharge. I assert that the Department has not given us the information to enable us to decide properly whether the money should be voted or not. I would ask the Taoiseach to disclose to us, if he feels at liberty to do so, the circumstances he found obtaining at the League of Nations in Geneva when he was President of that august body.

An Ceann Comhairle

If we discuss the League of Nations in that manner, it will open a wide field of external affairs. In most Estimates, the Minister is responsible for the Department. In this particular case, it cannot be held that the Minister is responsible for the League of Nations. The Vote simply asks for a contribution towards it and it could not be held that the Taoiseach is responsible either for the administration or the policy of that League.

General MacEoin

The Minister is responsible for moving this Vote and I am asking him to give us certain information, so that we might vote the money with a freer mind. He was President of the League of Nations for one year—not the last year, I admit, and I would respectfully bow to your ruling that, therefore, it does not come within the discussion. If I am correct in stating that it is in his capacity as Minister for External Affairs he is moving this Vote, I am entitled to make this criticism, even though it may seem unreasonable. He tells us that this is the last Vote he is going to move for the League of Nations, that it is to be wound up and, unless I took a wrong note of what he said, a further Vote may be introduced as a final contribution, which would be the last sum this Parliament would vote for this purpose. Therefore, it is for the death knell of the League of Nations that we are voting this money, and he should have told us what, in his opinion, led to this death knell. He might have given us a funeral oration this evening, but he did not do so.

I am aware that representatives of this country, who attended the League of Nations very regularly, have returned to this country, and I feel that the Taoiseach, to enable us to come to a decision on the matter before us, should have stated what reports he received from those various representatives who attended the League of Nations within the last 12 months, whether they attended in Canada or elsewhere, or whether it was in the International Labour Office, or some other activity that they participated. Instead, we are treated in a most extraordinary way and told only that the Vote is being moved for something that is now about to die. I feel that is not the way to treat this Parliament.

I suggest that when this body is dying, when it is in its death agonies, the Taoiseach should tell us whether it is likely that any new organisation will arise, and he should tell us what his plans are if any new organisation takes the place of this one. Perhaps he could give us an idea of the nature of that new organisation and what efforts he is making to become a member of it. I am not prepared to accept from him a statement that he is not going to go with his hat in his hand to get into it, because I remember distinctly that in 1918 we sent a Minister to a conference at which questions deciding the peace of the world were likely to be discussed. We all know such matters were not dealt with, but at that time it appeared that they would be decided at that particular place. We sent a Minister to get in there, and I can assure Deputies here, and the people of the country, that we did not care how he got in so long as he got in.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter concerns External Affairs.

General MacEoin

I suggest it does not.

An Ceann Comhairle

It was raised very definitely on the Vote for External Affairs.

General MacEoin

I respectfully submit to the ruling of the Chair. Here we have an organisation dying, an organisation for which we are voting a certain sum of money. The Taoiseach has informed us that he will ask for a new Vote, or that it is likely we may have a new Vote in regard to this matter. I am entitled to ask the Taoiseach, before I agree to pay this money, what will be put in place of the present organisation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Taoiseach responsible for a new League?

General MacEoin

He is, unfortunately, the Taoiseach of this country, and whether the people have made a mistake or not, I will not say. I cannot be blamed for that. He is, unfortunately, occupying a position in which he is charged with doing certain things, including the moving of this Vote. In so far as that is his responsibility, I submit that he must answer here for it. I say that some organisation will replace the League of Nations and I want to know from the Taoiseach what steps he is taking to get in there. I respectfully submit that as we sent a Minister to do certain things in 1918 in a certain place, we have the courage to do the same to-day. Whatever Government represents this country it must do the work that it is called on to do, and before the Parliament of this nation decides to pay for doing it, that Parliament should be sure that the work will be well done.

By the ineffective statement he made on the case this evening, the Taoiseach has left this House and the country misinformed and, when he is concluding this debate, he should give us sufficient information to enable us to make up our minds whether it is worth while voting money to go into any further combination of nations. The Taoiseach has left Deputy Blowick in the position that he is forced to ask the question: "What good did we get?" That is a situation that should not arise and I say that the Taoiseach is at fault because he failed to inform the House. I should like to hear what his plans are for the association of this country with international affairs.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is definitely concerned with External Affairs and there is no money in this Vote for it. The House is asked to contribute money for a definite purpose and there is no money asked for future leagues, if such are established.

General MacEoin

I am referring to the Taoiseach's statement in so far as he said there would be a new and a final Vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

If there is, it will have to come before the House.

General MacEoin

I am merely asking that before he gets this Vote he should tell us what the new organisation will be like. He said here that there would be a new Vote for a final contribution and surely I am entitled to ask him what his intentions are with respect to the new Vote before we give him this one? I bow to the ruling of the Chair. I trust the Taoiseach will reply to the points I have raised.

Mr. Dillon

I observe with some concern a growing tendency on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party and its kept newspaper, The Irish Press——

Mr. L.J. Walsh

Kept by the Irish people.

Mr. Dillon

We can go into that some other time.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

Any time the Deputy chooses.

Mr. Dillon

I recall the history of the American Loan, the Republican Loan. As I said, I observe with concern the tendency to create the impression that in this democratic country in which we live it is graciously permitted to differ from Taoiseach de Valera about matters relating to the parish pump, the muzzling of dogs, or the closing hours for public-houses, but if one should differ with Taoiseach de Valera——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach must be referred to as the Taoiseach.

Mr. Dillon

If one should differ with the Taoiseach on any matter of substance, then these faithful children of Caitlin Ní Houliban are vigilant to detect treason. Should anyone challenge his omniscience——

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy now come to the Vote?

Mr. Dillon

I am dealing with this Vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

So far, no.

Mr. Dillon

Surely the Chair will permit me to develop my argument? If anyone dares to differ with the attitude of the Taoiseach on a matter such as the League of Nations, shrieks of "treason" rend the air. In such a matter the people of Ireland, apparently, are to look on the present Taoiseach as the personification of the nation and anyone who challenges his right to be known throughout the world as Ireland is a traitor. No rational person in this country challenges, or will suffer another to challenge, the right of the Taoiseach to be the legitimate head of the legitimate Government of this country, nor will they challenge, or suffer to be challenged, the right of the Minister for External Affairs to speak on behalf of the legitimate Government of this country at any international conference, League of Nations or otherwise. But I assert the right, and shall maintain it, to criticise the Minister—for he is no more than that—of a legitimate Government, within the law.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is, so far, irrelevant, in the opinion of the Chair.

Mr. Dillon

I trust Deputy Blowick will not think I am carping or being critical of or disrespectful to him, if I comment for a moment on his observations about the desirability of small nations combining for their own defence. Combining is all very well, until the time for defence comes.

Deputy Blowick spoke of combining all the small nations in Europe, Asia and the whole world. Suppose that combination is made and Afghanistan is attacked to-morrow. Will Deputy Blowick advocate this country's going to war in defence of Afghanistan?

Mr. Blowick

It would not be necessary; passive resistance would be quite sufficient against the big Powers.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Blowick's contribution to the defence of Afghanistan is that we should passively resist. I do not think, with deep respect, that, on those terms, he will have many candidates for admission to his league. He also asked the understandable question: what good did we get out of this League? He is sufficient of an Irishman, and a generous one at that, to turn his mind to the question of what good were we able to do through the league, as well as what good did we get out of it. We sent representatives to the League of Nations, and we once sent the Taoiseach. Those were the days when he did not think it shameful to dream dreams. He thought it worth while, speaking in the name of Ireland, in an unsympathetic atmosphere, amongst people who, he was pretty sure, were not going to listen and of whose ever understanding, if they did listen, there was little hope, to say that this country stood for certain fundamental principles, and a situation might arise in which he would be called upon to dream dreams like that again, unless he has grown so sagacious, so experienced and so realist that he has made up his mind not to dream dreams any more.

I think it is worth while going to gatherings of that kind, even though you know you are faced with a bewildered world which cannot find its own way home, because it has lost the key to the right way. The great contribution which a country such as this can make is to go there and even if as a voice crying in the wilderness, recall to the world the only way. Sooner or later, that way will be found, because there is no other way to peace—good understanding and dignity amongst men. Somebody will have to lead the world back to it, and all human experience teaches that it is highly unlikely that the nation destined to lead the world back to a knowledge of that truth will be a nation which is itself blinded by the material prosperity and power which have led it astray.

Surely the mission of a small, poor nation, which has no imperial ambitions, which has no axe to grind and which wants nothing of any other nation in the world but the right to live in peace and good neighbourliness with all other nations, is, by election, the one that will call the world back to the only road which offers hope for its own salvation. I feel sure that if Deputy Blowick reflects on that aspect, he will agree with me that, if we never got any advantage for ourselves out of the League of Nations, it might be for us an instrument wherewith to achieve a very noble destiny which one of his name should be peculiarly fitted to appreciate.

I heard reference made to-day to Poland. The League of Nations of which we are a member has, I suppose, as one of its functions, at this eleventh hour of its life, to see justice done to Poland. We may ask if the money we are about to appropriate is to contribute to that end. May I sound this note of caution? It is sometimes very easy to imagine that, from the columns of the daily Press, one can learn all that requires to be known about the affairs of another nation wherewith to form a prudent judgment, and, in the warmness of one's sympathy, one may rush to decry an arrangement which might, in the long run, be the best for the nation which had engaged one's sympathy, did one but know all the details of the case.

I do not know what the position of Poland is at present, and all I ask Deputies and persons responsible for pressing upon our Minister for External Affairs an attitude to be adopted at the League of Nations, should the question of Poland engage that body's attention, is to walk circumspectly, guided by this fundamental principle, that we believe of Poland, as we believe of ourselves, that she is entitled to be sovereign and free, and that we believe of Poland, as we believe of ourselves, that every man and woman living there has the right to render unto Cæsar the things that are Cæsar's and to God the things that are God's, without let or hindrance from any Power, inside or outside that country.

An Ceann Comhairle

What has that to do with this Vote?

Mr. Dillon

The League of Nations may be summoned to-morrow to consider the case of Poland.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is surely a matter for External Affairs.

Mr. Dillon

I say no more than that. Let us beware lest, in understandable sympathy, we rush in where angels fear to tread. Our views on fundamentals are known and they are as true of Poland as they are of any other country in the world.

Deputy Blowick, and, I think, Deputy MacEoin perhaps, dwelt on the imperfections of the League of Nations to which we now belong. God knows, it had enough of them, but do Deputies expect a human institution, designed to establish a rule of law, not amongst men but amongst nations, to be perfect ab initio? It took human beings centuries to establish that the law would be the same for everybody and that every man would be equal before the law. Does Deputy Blowick doubt that three centuries ago in England the Duke of Norfolk would have laughed if it were suggested to him that before the law he was no more than his potboy? But to-day all the dukes in England are no more than the humblest potboy before the law of England. We have not any dukes in this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

Nor in this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I am not asking the Chair to be unduly generous. Surely this goes to the very essence of the League of Nations—the rule of law.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps I misunderstood the Deputy, but I thought the League of Nations was finished.

Mr. Dillon

Indeed, it is not finished, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

This League?

Mr. Dillon

No, Sir; it is not finished. We have no dukes in this country, but we have a Taoiseach, and I am proud to say that so far even I am equal to the Taoiseach before the law. But it took centuries to achieve that.

Mr. Blowick

We will never achieve that in the League of Nations.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy says despairingly: "We will never achieve that in the League of Nations". If the potboy had said that to the Duke of Norfolk three centuries ago, the Court of Chancery would not be sitting in the Four Courts now. It was because the potboy three centuries ago, and his son and his grandson and his descendants to the eighth and ninth degree, kept hoping that there would be equality before the law, that we have the Court of Chancery in the Four Courts to-day.

An Ceann Comhairle

I fail to see how that arises.

Mr. Dillon

The whole purpose of the League of Nations is to ensure that there will be equality before the law between the smallest State in Europe and the Socialist Union of Soviet Republics. What else is the League of Nations for?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am expressing the view that the personal liberty of the subjects of the King of England, in England, and the details of its development over the centuries, have nothing to do with this Vote.

Mr. Dillon

Surely, Sir, only from that can we learn or hope that some day we can realise, although we begin imperfectly, the real ideal of a League of Nations, whereunder all nations will be equal before the law? I am making the submission to this House that the League of Nations to which we now belong, or the League of Nations to which at an early date we may belong, is not perfect. It puts us in no stronger position perhaps than that in which the Duke of Norfolk's potboy stood three centuries ago, but, if we have the faith that such humble people as he had in the ultimate triumph of justice, we can get for the small, impotent nations of the world the same measure of security that that humble creature got for his like in this day. But, if we take up the position that unless we can get complete security and perhaps justice, ab initio, in the League we belong to now or its successor in title, we are throwing in the sponge; we are betraying posterity, and, in my submission, the hopes of man. There is danger in our being in the League. Perhaps the safe policy is isolation—to run away from our responsibilities as a sovereign State. There is danger in going in with the predatory powers and fighting in their citadel for the freedom without which small nations cannot live. But I think the Taoiseach is right in indicating that he favours this nation taking that risk and playing its part in this League of Nations, knowing well that we may not see in our day the realisation of the dreams he used to think it was worth while dreaming, but that if we stand faithfully to such dreams some successor of ours in Ireland will see their realisation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I should just like the Deputy to realise that there is no motion to refer back this Vote. Therefore, the whole policy does not arise to the extent to which the Deputy has discussed it. All that arises is merely the administration of this amount of money.

Mr. Dillon

I understand that this money, in part at least, is provided for the International Labour Office, at the head of which a distinguished Irishman stands. I should be glad——

An Ceann Comhairle

To the best of my recollection that money is in the Industry and Commerce Vote.

Mr. Dillon

In that matter I shall be guided by the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is my recollection. If the Deputy has the Estimates in front of him, perhaps he will tell me whether the money for the Labour Bureau comes under this Vote?

Mr. Dillon

I confidently place myself in the care of the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

It states in the Estimates: "The provision here does not include that part of the contribution which is attributable to the cost of the International Labour Organisation, and which is borne on Vote No. 55 (Industry and Commerce)". That is a footnote on page 338 of the Estimates.

Mr. Dillon

There is no need to verify it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought the Deputy was looking for the reference, and I wanted to help him.

Mr. Dillon

I have complete confidence in placing myself in the care of the Chair. I mean it. I am not unconscious of the trials of the Chair sometimes, and of the Chair's distinguished fairness. I have said all I wanted to say, and I venture to commend my observations particularly to my friend Deputy Blowick, because I believe they deserve his generous understanding. I do not bespeak his agreement, but at least his understanding. I hope when the Taoiseach comes to reply he will distinguish me by a slight indulgence; it would intrigue me to hear if he is still capable of dreaming dreams, or has that power atrophied in him for ever?

The Taoiseach

I am afraid it is going to be very difficult to deal with this within the ruling of the Chair. I am not quite clear what latitude I have in dealing with the matter.

Mr. Dillon

Napoleon had a blind eye, Sir.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Nelson.

Mr. Dillon

Nelson—perfectly right.

The Taoiseach

I think I have already made it clear in public what our view is—that, if there is a world organisation formed for security purposes, for the maintenance of peace, and if the principles on which it is founded are at all acceptable, we should join it. The charter of the new organisation has been published. We have not been sent officially a copy of it, but we have a copy of it. I do not think that even the British House of Commons has published it as a White Paper yet. We have a copy, as I say, and it can be made available if it is thought desirable at an early stage, certainly in time for any discussion on this matter.

General Mulcahy

I think that the public should have an opportunity of digesting the principle and the commitments in it.

The Taoiseach

Does the Deputy mean that the White Paper should be a comment on it?

General Mulcahy

No, simply the publication of the charter with its preamble and terms for the information of our people generally.

The Taoiseach

I will see if that is possible. With regard to the existing League of Nations for which money is being voted——

Mr. Dillon

Can the Taoiseach inform us if the charter prescribes the method of admission for nations? Is a nation admitted of its own request, or what is the procedure?

The Taoiseach

I shall read a couple of relevant articles. Article 3, Chapter 2, says:—

"The original members of the United Nations shall be the States which, having participated in the United Conference on International Organisation at San Francisco, or having previously signed the declaration by United Nations of January 12, 1942, sign the present charter and ratify it in accordance with Article 110."

It has to be ratified by individual States. Then there is Article 4, paragraphs 1 and 2:—

"(1) Membership in the United Nations is open to all other peace-loving States which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the organisation, are able and willing to carry out these obligations;

(2) The admission of any such State to membership in the United Nations will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council".

The matter of this Charter is going to be a subject for discussion in a number of Parliaments. We have no particular hurry about it, and can take our time. The discussions on it will make it possible for all our people, when they have an opportunity of reading them, to understand exactly what is implied and what are the purposes.

Mr. Dillon

Has the Taoiseach's study of it yet permitted him to give us an informed view on it?

The Taoiseach

No. I have not studied it, except in a very casual way.

Mr. Dillon

Can a nation itself apply, or has it to wait until it is invited?

The Taoiseach

I think that an application would have to go in at some stage. There may be a question of an invitation. The main question about the existing League of Nations, for which we are asking the House to vote money is this, that the League is obviously coming to an end. We have persisted to the end in the League of Nations. By reason of that we have a share of the final expenses to pay, and that is the purpose for which this money is intended. There will probably be a meeting to dispose of the property and so on of the League, possibly to hand it over to the new organisation, and to dissolve the organisation of the League as such.

Deputy MacEoin seemed to think that it was my duty on this occasion to go over the whole ground of the history of the League, to point out the good things it had done and possibly the faults which made it finally an ineffective instrument for the maintenance of world peace. The trouble there is in getting an organisation of that kind to work is clear to everybody. It is all right when it is only a question of small nations, but the moment the big nations are involved, if they become aggressors and do not obey the law, then, of course, it requires tremendous force to bring them to heel, to bring them to book. But, as an organisation primarily intended to maintain peace, the decision to use it as an instrument of war, as it has to be used for the enforcement of peace, is one which prevents much enthusiasm on the part of member States. When Japan, as a great Power, attacked China in violation of the Covenant of the League, war would have had to be made on Japan to undo that aggression. At least so it appeared to the great Powers, but at the time the great Powers were not willing to undertake the obligations. A combination of the small States would have been helpless in the matter. It would have required overwhelming force, applied definitely at the point, to save China and to prevent the aggression of Japan.

It was, I think, when I was President of the Council, that that happened, and in it I certainly saw the end of the League. It was quite clear that when one great Power could do that, another great Power, when it was going to be tempted, would feel that the League would be equally ineffective. That happened, in my opinion, in the case of Abyssinia. Then, of course, confidence in the League had practically disappeared among the various members. The League was beginning gradually to shape itself into an alliance of certain Powers against others. At that point we indicated very clearly what our attitude was going to be, that we were not going to be parties to action by the League when it was developing in that particular way. That is the primary difficulty: to prevent aggression by a great Power means a great war, and you have, so to speak, in order to avoid war, to enter upon war.

There is no use in a League of Nations until all who are in the League make up their minds that they will combine and actually go to war to maintain the principles of the League. It is no inconsistency for the League to go to war on an occasion like that. It is a very different type of war from war between, say, an aggressor State and a State that is simply defending itself. It is what I would call a police war. Steps would have to be taken in advance, of course, to minimise the size of that war. That is the other matter which presents very great difficulty. How are you going to get a situation in which the League will have sufficient force at its command immediately, practically to overwhelm any one of the member States that attempts to break the law? We maintain the ordinary municipal law in the community by having power available to the Executive which is so great that the ordinary citizen or group of individuals cannot stand up against it. If they could, you would not be able to maintain the law. It is the same internationally.

Unless there is immediately available for the organ of the League, which is there to maintain peace and to see that the law is kept, a force which is overwhelmingly greater than that of any individual who may be about to break the law, then an effective organisation for the maintenance of peace is not there. That is extremely difficult, also, to bring about and that is why, on one occasion when I was speaking on this matter, I suggested that, in my view, we will not have nearly arrived at an effective League until we have something that is very nearly like a confederation of the nations. I think that ultimately we will have to get to that stage. I know there are difficulties and dangers in that, too, but we will have to get to that stage before we will have in a League of Nations a really effective means for the maintenance of peace.

I pointed out that it is the great nations that are the trouble in this, and it is the problem of the great nations that is the real problem. They realise that they must come in and, because they realise that they will have to bear the principal part of the burden, they want to have the principal part of the power, too. Consequently, in all these organisations being projected — and in the present one — for the maintenance of peace, there is a tendency to give to the great Powers an overwhelming influence, which generally means, in the long run, that if they keep together all goes well but, when they want to quarrel, then the whole purpose for which the League was established goes to pieces. If one of them feels sufficiently strong to be able to indulge its ambitions, whatever they may be, then you have the others in a position in which the machinery of the League as a whole cannot be used, because votoes can be employed to prevent the machinery of the League being operated in such a case.

I have not, as I have said, studied yet very closely the charter of the new United Nations but, from the preliminary look through it that I have had, I am not at all convinced that it is going to be really more effective than the old one was and — I have given the reasons for it—I do think that the smaller nations will not have in the new organisation the influence that they had in the old.

Deputy Blowick has spoken about our trying to get the small nations together. When the old League was working the small nations did come together very frequently to try to maintain their own rights under the League. It was a very common experience for us to have meetings with the representatives of a number of the Northern European States and some other States. As a matter of fact, we worked in close contact with the smaller European States and I have not the slightest doubt that if we all were members of a new organisation of this kind, we would also be brought together by our natural interests in order to maintain the rights of the small nations against the strong. But, as was pointed out by Deputy Dillon, the small nations alone could do nothing. They would not be sufficiently powerful as a league, separately, to be really effective but, wherever their vote comes in, they can be fairly effective by coming together and deciding upon a common programme and, when there are matters that affect the interests of the small States, they naturally do that. I do not think that, at this stage, however, we would gain very much by going into that wide field but, of course, the question naturally will engage our attention more and more now that the position is getting from the fluid into a more solid state, and in all probability, at a later stage, will come before the House.

As I say, it is extremely difficult to get anything like an effective league. The present charter, in my opinion—I have said it a couple of times—is not, from the small nations' point of view, as good as the old. From the point of view of being effective for peace, I do not think it is any better.

Mr. Dillon

It has elements of economic co-operation, and facets of that kind.

The Taoiseach

Yes. In the old League, as the Deputy is aware, there was a good deal of such work done. Apart from the fundamental problem of the maintenance of peace, the old League of Nations was a very valuable organisation. I agree with Deputy Dillon that the people of the world will have to struggle towards that ultimate goal of living under a rule of law which will be accepted and have some power to enforce it against those who will want to break it up. We will not get it quickly but, by persistently striving for it, we may arrive there at the end. One thing may help us is the realisation of what war now means. Formerly, wars could be engaged in by certain nations without these nations feeling there was a war on at all. That day, I think, is past and the realisation on the part of the nations which go to war that the victor often suffers as much as the vanquished and that, from the point of view of victory, it certainly is very dearly bought, may make the nations which want to go to war pause. But human nature remains very much of the same type over a long period and, in bringing individuals and nations under the rule of law, that was done in the past very largely by one strong Power completely demolishing the others and establishing itself as the one ruling Power. It might be thought that probably that is the way in which this rule of law might ultimately win acceptance in the world, by one Power dominating all the nations and consequently imposing its will for the time and some sort of evolution, like the democratic evolution of States, coming on afterwards. But I think that is a thought which would be horrible. One would certainly pray it would not be the way in which it would be done. It might for a time achieve success and bring about what we were just saying. I do not think it would be effective. Most States are of such a size that they can be governed by central authority, and so on, and we have not quite a parallel in the case of the nations as a whole. I do not think it will apply to nations as a whole. I do not think the thing could last in that form.

The alternative is something like a voluntary confederation. Any league, of course, is something like that, but it lacks some essential elements, such as the law-making body. How are you going to get the law-making body and, still more, how are you going to get the law enforcing authority, and how are you going to get the body that will justly declare what the law is and give just judgments between nations? These are the elements we have in an ordinary State. To get these for a world State or a world confederation would be extremely difficult indeed, so that we can only do the best that we can at each particular stage, try to improve it, try to get the individuals in the various nations to realise that peace means a great deal to them and that the method of trying to satisfy national ambitions by war is not the effective and the proper method.

As I say, I do not care to dwell on these things at this time because it would be very much better if we had a situation in which we would have something immediate and definite to decide upon. I think the House will pardon me if I do not go into these more or less speculative matters at the moment any further. I would like to assure Deputy Dillon, however, that I did not say we were not to dream dreams. I said that, it was all right for Deputies on the opposite benches simply to dream the dreams but we had not merely to dream them but to see how we were going to realise them. We cannot approach the matter from any other aspect, as long as we have responsibilities such as we have here on these benches.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Taoiseach say if we are to interpret those observations to mean that, at some future date, the Dáil will be afforded an opportunity to decide whether it will or will not instruct the Government to take the steps necessary to secure membership of this new body?

The Taoiseach

Yes, the Dáil will be consulted.

General Mulcahy

After application has been made, the question of ratification arises. Do I understand that this is a pre-ratification discussion?

The Taoiseach

No State has discussed or ratified the charter yet.

General Mulcahy

When a State has accepted, the charter has to be ratified by the Parliament of that State. Regarding the discussion for which Deputy Dillon is asking, do I understand that that is a discussion anterior to the actual discussion on ratification of the charter?

The Taoiseach

I think it would be a discussion as to whether we would or would not join. I think the best way would be to put a motion down, that the intention of the Government to do so-and-so has the approval of the House.

Mr. Dillon

To abstain from or to apply for.

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Vote put and agreed to.