Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1945

Vol. 98 No. 9

Adjournment Debate. - Position of Public Analyst (County Clare).

Mr. Donnellan

To-day I asked a question of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. I consider that the reply was far from satisfactory. That is the reason why I asked permission of the Chair to raise the matter on the Adjournment, although I do not like bringing the Minister back into the House at this hour. I asked, in the first part of the question, "if he will state if the office of public analyst in County Clare is now vacant". The answer to that was, "The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative". From my information and according to Press reports, it appears that the former public analyst in County Clare, not very long ago, wrote to the county manager in that county—not to the county council—directing the county manager to appoint in her place, during her unavoidable absence, a certain assistant to that position. Nevertheless, the Minister's reply to-day to the first part of the question, is that the position is not vacant. I do not want to bring in the name of the individual concerned even though she is the first lady of the land, but I do not think that it should be allowed that an individual holding an appointment in this country should write to the county manager of a county saying: "Hold open this very good position and keep it open for some time until I am in a position to return to it." Do not think I am raising this matter, as some Deputies may think, for any political purpose whatsoever. My connection with Clare is very slight and I am raising it because it is a matter that is talked of generally throughout this country. Even though some members of the Minister's Party may laugh, I want to tell the Minister and his Party that if they, as the Government Party, allow such things to happen and continue to allow such things to happen, it is not to their credit and it will not help them in the country.

The policy appears to be to make the poor in this country poorer and, to a certain extent, to make the rich much richer. It is a terrible state of affairs if a person who is appointed to a public position by some means or other, probably because that person is the qualified person and the proper person for the position, as I believe was the case when this public appointment in Clare was made, can come along later and write a letter to the county manager saying, "Appoint such a person in my place until such time as I can return." If the Government allows such a thing to happen it is not to their credit or to the credit of this State as a whole. That is not politics by any means. I would ask the Minister to reconsider his reply to the effect that the position was not vacant. The position must be vacant, because the person who occupies the position has gone on to another and cannot return for the next seven years. I would suggest to the Minister that an appointment should be made to the position in Clare without any recommendation from the person who held the appointment beforehand.

When I asked what was the salary attaching to that office, I got a very long list. It started off with a payment of £100 a year; then it went on to certain rates of pay for certain work done. Surely the Minister can tell us in round figures, approximately, what is the pay per year as public analyst in County Clare. Certainly that is what I asked him.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. MacEntee)

It is not, Deputy.

Mr. Donnellan

"If he will state the terms and conditions as regards salary and appointment, fees, etc., governing this post."

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy got a full answer to that.

Mr. Donnellan

Well, what I wanted to know was the pay. Is that plain enough?

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy has got it.

Mr. Donnellan

I have got it in figures and I suppose it would take the Minister himself to let me know what the total means. I cannot find what the total salary for the position is. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the matter. Do not allow an individual holding such a position to get the sanction of the Minister's Department to have somebody appointed temporarily to the position until such time as the individual returns to it. I raise the matter to give the Minister an opportunity to explain. Is he going to allow that kind of thing to happen? I make it plain to the Minister that I do not wish to bring the individual concerned into a debate in this House but I want to explain to the Minister that the general opinion through the country is that it is allowed in this case because it is that individual. I do not believe it is, but I would ask the Minister not to allow it in this case or any other case because if that is allowed the next thing will be that the people having a pull or by some other means, may grab up seven, eight or ten appointments in the country and then can say: "Put this person here and that person there, and let me be jumping from job to job until at last I reach one where I will not need to worry for the rest of my life". That puts it, simply and plainly, before the Minister and I would ask him to tell us if it is the policy of the Government to allow that to happen? If it is, it is not a good policy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister.

Mr. MacEntee

Am I concluding, Sir?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. MacEntee

It is understood that if I speak now the debate is closed?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. MacEntee

There is a great deal of conscious misunderstanding on the part of Deputy Donnellan in regard to this matter. The Deputy has been a member of a public body——

Mr. Donnellan

Since 1918.

Mr. MacEntee

——and should know what is the relationship between persons who belong to the profession of public analyst with their public bodies. These are not ordinary appointments. They are not in the strict sense of the term offices under the county council. They are appointed in the same way as a consulting engineer would be appointed or as, say, if need should arise, many solicitors are appointed to do certain work on behalf of the county council—on a fee basis. Public analysts are like consulting engineers and solicitors. They build up a practice as private persons. They are engaged in ordinary professional practice as consultant analytical chemists. It happens that the public bodies, for the convenience of the public and in order to enable them to discharge their functions under the Public Health Acts, have to designate a certain person to be their public analyst and that person has to make for the general public and the public authority, analytical tests upon a fee basis.

That brings me to this question of salary. All we can say in relation to any one of these appointments is what might be the gross amount that would be paid to the specified person in respect of the work which that analyst does under the Public Health Acts for the public authority and for private individuals. But we would not be able to determine for ourselves what would be the amount of personal remuneration attaching to that work, because the public analyst is engaged in private practice, in ordinary private business, carrying out the practice of his profession, in the same way as Deputy Donnellan carries on his ordinary avocation as a farmer and a shopkeeper. I could tell, if I had a look at Deputy Donnellan's books, what was his gross turn-over from year to year, but I am certain that I, or even the Revenue Commissioners, could not determine what is the exact amount of his personal remuneration.

Mr. Donnellan

Maybe I do not know myself.

Mr. MacEntee

It is similar in the case of a person holding an appointment as public analyst. He is an ordinary private practitioner, not a functionary of a local authority in the same way as a county surveyor or a county manager or a county secretary is. He is remunerated in exactly the same way, for instance, as a consulting surgeon by fees per case, but with this difference, that whereas the consulting surgeon might be using all the equipment and the accommodation of a public authority, a public analyst has to provide the equipment necessary for the carrying on of his profession, has to provide the laboratory premises, has to provide the chemicals and scientific apparatus, and has to provide the skilled professional staff which is necessary to enable him to carry out the chemical research which he is called upon to undertake under the terms of his appointment. Therefore, there is nothing more misleading than to assume that the gross amount of any fee which a public analyst receives would give any clear indication as to what the amount of his personal profit, by remuneration, might be. That would depend upon a great many things. First of all it would depend upon the extent of his other practice, on the extent of the work which he would carry out for private concerns as well as public bodies, for of course, all these analysts do carry out extensive work for private concerns. They work for food manufacturers, for drug manufacturers, for people who are engaged in ordinary industrial undertakings and may want to have a water supply tested to see it it is suitable for industrial processes, or for use in boilers or who may be having trouble with the discharge of effluent into rivers and waterways. All these people come to these very highly skilled professional people who occupy the position of public analyst, and they pay fees. In fact, what makes these appointments to be public analysts attractive to those engaged in that profession is not the amount of remuneration which they get from such an appointment, but the status which it gives them, the cachet which it puts on them when dealing with private individuals who want to utilise their services; just in the same way as if you go to a medical directory and look down the list of professional men you will see the leaders of the profession are very glad to put after their names every public appointment which they hold. If, by any chance, one of them was married to a distinguished and brilliant lady following the profession of medicine and was by some chance selected by the people for the honour of being head of the State, would we have Deputy Donnellan coming in here and attacking him or her because, without drawing a penny remuneration, he or she did not forgo the right to describe themselves as holders of such-and-such medical appointments either under a public authority or under a voluntary hospital or some other medical institution?

What is of importance in connection with this profession of public analyst is the fact that before a person can be appointed a public analyst he has to have very high professional qualifications, qualifications which are possessed by very few people in this country, qualifications which, at one time, could only be obtained outside this country. It is because the holding of an appointment of that sort is an indication, a guarantee, that the person holding it is able to carry on his ordinary private practice as an analytical chemist with competence and efficiency that these appointments are valued. They are esteemed and sought for very much more for that than for the remuneration which they bring. That explains why, when I was asked to-day by Deputy Donnellan to state the terms and conditions as regards salary and appointment, fees, etc., governing the post, I could give him only all the information at my command. I said this afternoon that the remuneration in Clare is on the following basis:—A payment of £100 a year to cover analysis of samples up to 250. Everybody who knows anything about this profession knows that a payment of £100 would not remunerate a public analyst if, by any chance, he had only to analyse 250 samples in a year, as he has to maintain his laboratory, provide his technical equipment and his technical staff and give the time either of himself or of his skilled assistants.

That is a token payment which must be made, which would have to be made in order to provide a basis. It is only when the number of samples makes it worth while, that apart from anything else, any personal remuneration begins to accure. Even when the number of samples to be analysed is comparatively large, the element of personal remuneration in the fee is relatively small.

I gave the Deputy every possible information I could in the matter. I pointed out that the minimum payment of £100 was quite the usual practice in these matters to provide a minimum payment to cover analysis of samples up to 250, that the payment was 7/6 per sample for samples in excess of 250 and up to 500; 7/- per sample for samples in excess of 500 and under 1,000; and 6/- per sample for samples in excess of 1,000. Now, there was everything I could possibly give the Deputy; yet he professes not to be satisfied with that information. Was the Deputy's dissatisfaction in this matter genuine or bona fide? Was it to enable him to open this matter in the hypocritical fashion in which he did? While disclaiming any intention to particularise any person in relation to this matter, he was very careful, in the course of his speech, to make quite certain that any person who read the speech would identify the person he had in mind.

Mr. Donnellan

It is not your habits I have.

Mr. MacEntee

No. My habit is to be blunt and direct.

Mr. Donnellan

It is well known.

Mr. MacEntee

I certainly would not do it that way, if I wanted to raise a matter of this sort—and God forbid I ever should.

Mr. Donnellan

On a point of order, I explained in my statement that I regretted that this person was interested in the County Clare in the matter and the Minister comes along with the same rotten attitude as he adopts in the country at the crossroads or even in the Dáil.

Mr. MacEntee

I have just said that the Deputy said he regretted having to raise it. He need not have mentioned any person's name or sex; but the Deputy was careful to mention the fact that it was a lady, that she happened to be married to some person who occupied an august position. He was meticulously careful. The Deputy's quarrel in this matter seems to be that a lady has entered into the bonds of matrimony with an Irishman, a lady who is as good an Irish lady as any man could be a good Irishman, a lady who was in the Post Office in 1916, a lady who played a noble part in the whole struggle for Irish liberty since that period, who happens to be married to the President of our country.

Mr. Donnellan

Keep to the question.

Mr. MacEntee

What does the Deputy ask me to do? This debate may last until 9.30 and I am now concluding; and I do not want any interruptions from the Deputy.

Mr. Donnellan

Keep to the question.

Mr. MacEntee

I am keeping to the question. What does the Deputy ask me to do? To single this lady out for special treatment. The Deputy is a member of a local authority.

Mr. Donnellan

Yes.

Mr. MacEntee

He has also been a member of this House for a short period and I would not say that his presence has brought any honour to the proceedings.

Mr. Donnellan

Neither has yours, and I will be here after you.

Mr. MacEntee

But if, as a member of this House, he had read the Local Government (Officers) Regulations which I issued in 1943, he would have seen that there are many members of this House who enjoy the same privilege, that there is provision made in those regulations for the performance of whole-time duties of whole-time officers, in person or by Deputy. There is a member of this House who holds one of the highest posts in the service of the local authority. He is not a member of my Party, but he performs those duties on occasion by deputy though he is supposed to give whole-time personal service. There are other members, some of whom may be in the Deputy's Party. I know there are other members who sit on this side of the House, some who sit on the Labour benches and some who sit——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is going outside the question.

Mr. MacEntee

No, Sir, I am not going outside the question. In this debate, you have allowed the Deputy to say that I am making a special exception in regard to this lady.

Mr. Donnellan

I asked you not to do it.

Mr. MacEntee

You have already said that, so I am pointing out to you that there is provision in the law of this land for certain offices to be performed by deputy. What the Deputy is asking me to do is to single this person out for special victimisation, to treat this person, because she happens to be associated in the bonds of matrimony with a good Irishman, in exactly the same way as the Black and Tans tried to treat her, in exactly the same way as was sought to victimise her in 1922-23, because she was staunch then to the principles which she holds to-day.

Mr. Donnellan

Nonsense.

Mr. MacEntee

That is what the Deputy wants me to do, because there happens to be in this country a President and others who gave honourable service to the Irish nation. This gentleman, Deputy Donnellan, who sits for Galway, who has proclaimed——

Mr. Donnellan

In spite of you.

Mr. MacEntee

——that he has no interest in Clare, no association with Clare, tells us that he wants me specially to victimise a certain person —because he has a personal spleen against her.

Mr. Donnellan

Sir, surely you will not allow that?

Mr. MacEntee

To gratify his petty mind, his petty antipathies, to try to make a little political capital out of it, if he can.

Mr. Donnellan

You will fail.

Mr. MacEntee

That is what Deputy Donnellan asks me to do. That is the question which the Chair allowed him to put to me, and I must be allowed to continue without interruption from Deputy Donnellan. I did not interrupt him when he was speaking. If the Deputy, who is so meticulous about the concerns of Clare, had devoted his attention to a county nearer to him, with which he is much more closely associated, he would have seen that what the county manager in Clare did had been done elsewhere for other people. That question was not raised by the Deputy who sits for Galway, because the person concerned there does not happen to have any associations, good, bad or indifferent, either with this Party or with the national movement as a whole. You, Sir, allowed this gentleman to make a general challenge to me on my conduct. He said that, because the holder of a certain office had certain associations, she was being singled out for special treatment. You must allow me, with all due respect to you, to deal with that case, since you allowed it to be made; and whether it suits Deputy Donnellan or not or whether it renders anybody in the House impatient or not, I am going to shatter that canard once and for all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are confined to Clare.

Mr. MacEntee

No, Sir, because the Deputy has raised a general principle on this matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think he did.

Mr. MacEntee

We will have to appeal to the record to-morrow.

Mr. Hughes

On a point of order, I would like to ask a question.

Mr. MacEntee

I am not answering any question. I have a little time left and I am not giving way to the Deputy.

Mr. Hughes

I am entitled to raise a point of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is it a point of order?

Mr. Hughes

I do not know to whom the Minister was referring, but he referred to an individual in Galway.

Mr. MacEntee

Did I?

Mr. Hughes

And he reflected on that individual. Is it usual to permit a Deputy to reflect on someone who is not present in the House to defend himself? I do not know who the individual is at all.

Mr. MacEntee

I did not refer to any individual. Deputy Hughes need not come in to save Deputy Donnellan.

Mr. Donnellan

I can speak for myself.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have already ruled that this question is confined to that of the public analyst in Clare.

Mr. MacEntee

Then why did you allow Deputy Donnellan to raise the general case?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not aware that I did.

Mr. MacEntee

Yes, you did. The Deputy said that, in this matter, a person was being treated with special consideration. In rebutting that, I am entitled to call the attention of the Dáil——

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister is trying to misrepresent me.

Mr. MacEntee

I am entitled to point out that this consideration has been extended elsewhere to a considerable number of people who have to do public service, even outside this country.

Mr. Donnellan

Sir, you are trying to sabotage the whole debate. There is one question. Will you answer it? Are you going to allow things like that to be said here?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If Deputy Donnellan does not conduct himself——

A Deputy

Put Deputy Donnellan out.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think he will have to leave the House.

Mr. MacEntee

It is now 9.30 p.m.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 15th November, 1945.