I move that leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Valuation Acts so as to provide that the valuation of any land or turf bog or turf bank shall not be increased by reason of the cutting or the sale therefrom of turf by or through the local authorities or other agencies intended to provide fuel during the emergency contemplated by the Emergency Powers Act, 1939.
Valuation Bill, 1945—First Stage.
I second that.
I wish to object.
The Government have indicated that they will take Private Deputies' time for their own purposes to-day and I would like to say with regard to this Bill that this is a matter arising out of emergency circumstances and it is a matter that is creating a considerable amount of loss and dislocation among a certain number of people who gave their services during the emergency. It is a matter that has brought about litigation between these people and local authorities. I would almost claim it as my right, as the Leader of the major Opposition Party in the Dáil, to ask the Government, as a matter of Parliamentary courtesy, to agree that this measure will be printed and circulated so that there may be a discussion and the members of the Dáil may see what is creating this disturbance in the country.
The subject matter of the Bill is contained in the Title which appears on the Order Paper to-day. If the subject matter of the Bill had any reason in it, the Government would not oppose it at this stage. As the Deputy is aware, the Valuation Acts——
On a point of order——
The Deputy has made his statement.
I rose on a matter of order and I want to make sure that this is being dealt with as a matter of order and that we are not discussing the First Reading of the Bill now.
Is the Deputy not moving the First Reading?
The First Reading of the Bill is now being discussed; otherwise it would not have been mentioned. The Government need not put down the First Reading of the Bill in Government time. It would go on to Private Deputies' time unless it is taken in the Order of Business. The Government have included it in the Order of Business and it is being taken.
The Government have misled the House. I understand that if a Private Members' Bill is not being accepted by the Government, it goes down for Private Members' time and is then dealt with as a First Reading in Private Members' time.
The procedure in relation to this matter is laid down in the Standing Orders and the Deputy would have found out the procedure by reading the Standing Orders.
Is objection being taken to the First Reading of this Bill?
Yes.
Is the First Reading being taken now?
Yes, and objection has been taken to it. The Deputy supporting it may make a brief statement and the person opposing it may make another statement.
In 1941 powers were given to local authorities to cut turf, to take over turbary from which turf could be cut, or purchase turf from private persons. Through 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944 a considerable amount of turf was cut in various counties. There were at least 14 county councils which, in 1944, had overdrafts running into tens of thousands of pounds. In one district alone, in the North Riding of County Tipperary, the situation has now arisen where a number of persons have had their valuations increased as a result of the fact that they produced turf from their turbary in order to help the county councils and the people during the emergency. Their valuations were increased without any notice being given to them, beyond the ordinary notice published by a local authority to the effect that new valuation lists were on view.
After the time had passed in which they could put in an appeal they found themselves — two or three years afterwards—charged with substantial increases in their rates and with their valuations very much raised. That was because they had sold turf from their lands during the emergency. Some of these people now find themselves with increased valuations. Where the valuation was £20 before the emergency it has now been increased by another £20. In other cases, where the valuation was £15, it has been increased by £25. People find themselves brought before the District Court to answer a charge of non-payment of the increased rates. They are asked to meet this charge at a time when the local authorities not only have ceased cutting turf—and no income is coming to those people in that way—but when in many cases the land from which the turf has been cut has been evacuated by the local authorities and left in such a way that the grazing that would normally take place cannot take place by reason of the large number of cuttings and dykes left there.
These people were able, in other years, to put a substantial number of cattle on such land and get a fair income at £2 a head. They are no longer able to put these cattle on the land because of the difficulties that have been created. The whole position arose out of the emergency, under an Order issued by the Minister for Industry and Commerce or some other Minister, enabling turf to be provided for the people. When these parties entered into an arrangement with the local authorities to sell them turf at a particular rate they never dreamt that in an Act of 1852 there was a clause which some county managers would rely on to recoup themselves for losses on the turf cutting, or that losses of that kind would be turned back on the small number of people who gave their lands and their services in order to provide fuel for the people.
I asked to have this matter debated on the Adjournment the other night so that we might inform ourselves as to what is the Government's attitude. That attitude is that every Minister, from the Taoiseach to the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Finance, washed his hands of responsibility and, through the normal Standing Orders, I was not able to get the matter raised by way of question or on the Adjournment. I submitted a motion in order to have a three-hour discussion on the subject, but the Government refused time for that.
In North Tipperary there are cases coming into the District Court. People are surprised and shocked that they have been caught in this way and, now that the fuel emergency is to some extent over, they feel the Government are treating them in a very shabby way. They feel that they are being dealt with in a discriminating way, that action is being taken in certain counties which is not being taken in others. If this action were being taken in all the counties in which turf had been cut, there would be a very serious agitation problem to be dealt with by the Government. It has begun in North Tipperary, four years after turf was cut, and men are being asked to pay additional rates to-day because the local authority, in 1941 and 1942, paid them for turf which they agreed to allow the county council to cut on their lands. These lands are worth less to-day than they were before turf was cut on them and it is the general approach of the Government to the matter which is shocking, which is appalling and which is disturbing the public mind.
I ask that a Bill be passed which will secure that, during the period when turf was cut through local bodies or special agencies set up to deal with emergency circumstances, no man who gave his turbary will have his valuation raised by reason of his having done so. The Act which I should like to see on the Statute Book is an Act amending the 1852 Act to this extent:—
"Nothing in Section 12 of the Valuation (Ireland) Act, 1852, shall be deemed to authorise or ever to have authorised the Commissioner to increase the valuation of any land or turf bog or turf bank by reason of the fact that a rent or other valuable consideration was paid for turf cut, saved or withdrawn therefrom by or on behalf of a local authority or other authorised agency intended to provide full during the period of emergency contemplated by the Emergency Powers Act, 1939."
That is all that is asked, and I would have expected that such a proposition could have been dealt with in a normal, orderly way in the House and that various people concerned with their constituents could either express their knowledge of what the facts were, or their opinions of what should be done; but here we have a situation in which the Government are attempting to cloak discussion, and I have these few minutes to indicate to the House the kind of matter that would have been discussed here if the Government had allowed this Bill to be printed and circulated. They are refusing to do so and I think it is a disruptive and generally an appalling way to carry on the business of the House, and particularly business arising out of the emergency and out of people having given of their substance, having given the bogs which were there for themselves and their families for the relieving of the general fuel position of the country during the emergency.
Deputy Mulcahy has implied that this matter was not being dealt with in an orderly fashion. The Standing Orders outline what is to be done on the introduction of a private Deputy's Bill, or even of a Government Bill. Members have the right to object to it. I object to the introduction of the Bill because there is no rhyme or reason in it. Under the law as it stands, the ratepayers of County Tipperary or of any other county have the right to move, through their representatives and their officials, to get a bog, which had not been worked, revalued when it becomes a valuable property. The people of Tipperary and other counties have paid very dearly during the emergency for these bogs. As Deputies are aware, turf bank prices had to be controlled, and Deputy Mulcahy's proposition is that the people, having paid dearly for the right to cut turf on land which up to then had been of no value to the owner, should again compensate him by shouldering the burden of rates which these individuals who own the bogs are liable under the law to shoulder.
The law as it stands compels the Commissioner of Valuation, when requested to do so by the local authorities, to revalue rateable hereditaments. His revaluation may show that the value has gone up or down. In certain cases quite recently the commissioner was requested, according to law, by local authorities, who were not satisfied to see that those to whom the community had given, in some cases, very high bog rents, escaping their liability for rates, to go down and revalue these properties, and in the group of cases about which Deputy Mulcahy is becoming very violent, the owners concerned were drawing a couple of thousand pounds annually in rents, while the additional rates they would have to pay were a little over £100. We are entitled to see that these people who have been drawing such sums should bear their equitable portion of the rates, and if Deputy Mulcahy complains of the overdrafts of the county councils surely the county councils are entitled to see that these people help the ratepayers of the county to meet their overdrafts and their annual charges.
There is no rhyme or reason in this Bill. If there were, it would be a matter which could be debated at length, but I do not know why Deputy Mulcahy has taken up the case at all. I do not think any Deputy could object to the reasonable provisions in the Valuation Act which allow turf to be used in the normal way by a man for his own benefit without any rateable valuation being put on it; but when he starts to charge his neighbours for turf banks, he should pay according to the rents he charges—and a very small proportion of the rents he charges, as indicated by the fact that this group, which gets over a couple of thousand pounds in rents, have to pay only a very small amount.
Will the Minister say what the legal proportion is?
It has worked out that the group of people who were paid £2,493 in royalties were asked to pay £172 in rates.
Will the Minister say what is the legal proportion?
That indicates the legal proportion. I cannot state the exact legal proportion. If these people object to it, they can go to the court— I understand that some are going to the court—and can appeal against it. I do not want to go into the questions into which the judges will be going, but from the community point of view a very valuable property has been created for these people by the community.
Query.
They get their royalties or rents. Roads have been built all over the place in order to open up these bogs, and, under the Emergency Powers Act, if any damage was done, they are entitled to claim and to get compensation from the local authority. I do not know any more that the community could do for them. If a bog ceases to be used in that way they cease to be liable for rates.
May I ask a question?
There can be no more discussion. There can be only one brief statement for and one brief statement against.
With respect, I wish to recall what happened on a previous occasion. It is very rarely that we have in the House an exhibition of a refusal to a First Reading.
There can be no more discussion.
I was trying to draw the attention of the Chair to the fact that I remember an occassion when a speaker from another Party was allowed to say a few words. I wished to ask a question by way of seeking information.
The question is: That leave be granted to introduce the Valuation Bill, 1945.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 32, Níl, 54.
Tá
- Anthony, Richard S.
- Beirne, John.
- Bennett, George C.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Cafferky, Dominick.
- Coburn, James.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Commons, Bernard.
- Coogan, Eamonn.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Dockrell, Henry M.
- Dockrell, Maurice E.
- Donnellan, Michael.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Everett, James.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Halliden, Patrick J.
- Hughes, James.
- Keyes, Michael.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- O'Donnell, William F.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Reilly, Patrick.
- O'Sullivan, Martin.
- Pattison, James P.
- Roddy, Martin.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Bourke, Dan.
- Brady, Brian.
- Breathnach, Cormac.
- Breen, Daniel.
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Healy, John B.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Kilroy, James.
- Kissane, Eamon.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Loughman, Frank.
- McCann, John.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moran, Michael.
- Moylan, Seán.
- O'Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Connor, John S.
- O'Grady, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick (Co. Dublin).
- Carter, Thomas.
- Childers, Erskine H.
- Colley, Harry.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Crowley, Honor Mary.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- De Valera, Vivion.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Fogarty, Patrick J.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- O'Rourke, Daniel.
- O'Sullivan, Ted.
- Rice, Bridget M.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Robert.
- Shanahan, Patrick.
- Skinner, Leo B.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
- Walsh, Laurence.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Conn.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Bennett; Níl: Deputies Kissane and Kennedy.
Question declared lost.