Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 1946

Vol. 99 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Agriculture.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1946, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, and of certain Services administered by that Office, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is concerned entirely with the National Stud and is necessary because we did not succeed in transferring the Stud from the Department to the new board as soon as we expected. There were a lot of legal delays, which are now coming to an end, but we have to ask the Dáil to vote this amount of money for carrying on the ordinary operations of the farm there, that is, the purchase of stock, payment of wages, and so on. The appropriations against that are coming from the sale of stock and income from the National Stud itself. Now that we have the legal position almost put right, it is hoped we may be able to make the transfer in or about the 1st April, so that the board would be put in control from that date.

It was explained before that the new board will get a licence—which is the technical term, meaning something similar to a lease—to carry on. During the time we had the Stud, there was a lot of necessary repairing done to buildings, including the setting up of paddocks and fields, and so on, as well as a lot of cleaning up on fences.

Perhaps it is all to the good that we had it for this couple of years so that we can hand it over to the new board in a fairly fit condition. I cannot say definitely the date from which they will take over and carry on, but I hope it will be about the 1st April.

Mr. Hughes

The Minister says that certain sums are arising out of Appropriations-in-Aid — £11,950. I think. There is already existing a very considerable appropriation there— £270,000. Is that the compensation paid by the British?

Dr. Ryan

No. The Deputy will understand, of course, that that is the whole appropriation of the Department, not the National Stud alone. It includes incomes from other farms and agricultural colleges, on the whole Vote.

Mr. Hughes

Has the Minister nominated the board yet?

Dr. Ryan

They have been nominated, but not officially appointed.

Mr. Hughes

Would he tell us the personnel?

Dr. Ryan

Yes. The names were published, and I thought the Deputy knew them.

Mr. Hughes

Would he tell us who they are now?

Dr. Ryan

They are Major Moore, of Moore Hall; Lord Fingal, Mr. Frank Cannon, Mr. P.J. Ruttledge, T.D.; and General Liam Hayes.

Mr. Coogan

Is the new board functioning at the moment?

Dr. Ryan

Not until the 1st April. There were several difficulties arising, but at last we have got the articles of association from the printer, and the next point is to register the company, which will take a few weeks, as there are certain formalities. Then the board will be appointed officially, but we cannot do that until the company is set up.

Mr. Coogan

When does the Minister anticipate they will be functioning?

Dr. Ryan

About the 1st April.

Mr. Hughes

Would the Minister say what appropriations from other sub-heads make up the appropriations for this particular purpose—sub-head P?

Dr. Ryan

Sub-head P. covers all appropriations from every source. There are various numbers down along. If the Deputy looks up the Book of Estimates, he will see the appropriations which come in, in fees of various kinds and from every sale in an agricultural college. The whole lot comes to £270,000. The extra appropriations are coming from the National Stud itself in this case.

Mr. Corry

One objection I have to the formation of these companies is that we cannot get any information about them from the Departments concerned. This is another such company, but when we look for information regarding costings or anything else we cannot get it, either here in the House or otherwise. This is a matter of grave importance to the agricultural community, especially as we have now decided on a policy of fixation of prices.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is going away from the matter of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy is not. The Deputy is dealing with the formation of a company and giving instances of what has happened in other cases.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is what the Chair is complaining of—the Deputy is giving instances. This deals with the National Stud alone.

Mr. Corry

This is the formation of a national company and when the company is formed, if I ask a question here, I am told the Minister need not reply. I put down three questions some time ago, in connection with other farms run by the Department of Agriculture, dealing with the fixation of prices and I came up against the very same difficulty, that we could not get any information. I want to know if we can get information in connection with this one, if I ask what any particular item cost or regarding the sale of live stock or anything else. It appears we cannot get the information afterwards.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That cannot be discussed at all.

Mr. Corry

One of the Appropriations-in-Aid here is for an agricultural station—£800 odd. We cannot get information as to the cost of producing milk or beet at that station. At present, the prices of those things are being fixed for a number of years, but we are not getting an opportunity here to find out the basis on which they are being fixed. The Minister has a number of these farms at his disposal, run by the State. Surely there ought to be some White Paper placed on the Table of the House, giving us each year from those places the cost of production of the different articles?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would call the Deputy's attention to the fact that it is not necessary—in fact, it is not in order—to discuss Appropriations-in-Aid at all. The Deputy can only discuss the specific matter for which a supplementary sum is required —in this case, the National Stud—but not the Appropriations-in-Aid.

Mr. Corry

In this case, the additional sum is required for the National Stud.

Mr. Hughes

On a point of order, surely the Deputy is entitled to discuss an item that appears on the Vote?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, he is not.

Mr. Hughes

He is entitled to question any sums that appear on the statement.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, except on the general Estimate. On a Supplementary Estimate, Deputies may discuss only the actual things for which the money is required.

Mr. Hughes

But if he wants to find out how the sum arises, is he not entitled to discuss the figures?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is usual to show them, but they are not necessarily a matter for discussion.

Mr. Hughes

In order to get the Minister to satisfy him, surely he is entitled to discuss what is shown on the Estimate?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

He is not entitled to discuss everything shown on the Estimate.

Mr. Davin

On a further point of order, is it not a fact that the exact figures shown as Appropriations-in-Aid on this Supplementary Estimate sheet will not appear in the general Estimate? Is it not only by the disclosure of the Appropriations-in-Aid, the deductions from other amounts, that the figure now asked for by the Minister is arrived at?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Whatever way it is arrived at, Deputies can discuss nothing but the amount required and the purpose for which it is required. Nothing about Appropriations-in-Aid can be discussed at all.

Mr. Davin

That is how we arrive at the figure asked for by the Minister.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am merely pointing out the rules of order in this matter.

Mr. Hughes

Surely information should be set out here for the purpose of satisfying Deputies before they vote? They should be informed as to how the figures are arrived at. A Deputy is entitled to ask for information.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is nothing to stop him asking for information.

Mr. Corry

My trouble is this. From time to time a number of those estimates are brought forward here, whether they are for university farms, the Athenry agricultural station or other places of one kind or another. When we afterwards look for information in this House in connection with the cost of production on any one of these farms, we are told that such questions cannot be allowed. The whole future of agriculture in this country is hanging on the question of price, and naturally farmers are anxious to know whether these figures about which we ask questions will cover the cost of production.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is off along general lines .

Mr. Corry

The Deputy is discussing this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Davin

How do you arrive at the figure of £10? Obviously, you take into consideration the figure under the heading of Appropriations-in-Aid. Is it not a simple sum in arithmetic?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am merely telling Deputies what they can do. On a Supplementary Estimate they can discuss only the matter for which the Supplementary Estimate is required. Do you all understand that? I do not want to be repeating it.

Mr. Corry

I am discussing only the £10. I want to know, before this £10 is voted, whether we are going to get the information that we are entitled to? If I vote for £10 of the people's money for this thing, I want to know whether we will have laid on the Table of the House every year the cost of each of these horses and other similar information.

Am I not entitled to have that done? I am giving instances where, in connection with previous sums voted by the House, we asked for certain information, and surely I can draw an analogy in the present instance? Certain information was necessary in connection with Estimates that were passed here relating to farms. We were refused information as to the cost of production of certain articles of farm produce.

We, as agriculturists, are entitled to know how figures are arrived at which will govern the price of our produce in the future. That was my main object in rising to speak on this Estimate, and I would like to hear something from the Minister on the subject. I want to know whether production costs will be shown here or will be issued in the form of a White Paper. As regards farms run by the State, I think Deputies and the public generally are entitled to be shown the costs of production. It is a matter of education for them. We are entitled to the costs of production of different articles, the manner in which animals are fed, and so on. When State money is being spent on agricultural education, the community are surely entitled to get certain figures and statements. We are not getting them and that is my complaint.

Mr. Davin

I do not want to go into the matter raised by Deputy Corry, but in the White Paper before us, under the heading of salaries, wages and allowances, for the National Stud, there is a figure of £1,710. I do not know what period is covered by that figure. I should like a little information also as to how the figure of £10,000 for general expenses was arrived at and what period is covered there. It is a fairly big figure. What is meant by the term "general expenses"?

Dr. Ryan

That refers to the general expenses of running the farm. I do not know if the Deputy is aware that every penny spent must go down in the Estimate, and every penny we get in goes into Appropriations-in-Aid. It is not a case of bringing the net result before the Dáil. The £10,000 covers the purchase of stock, paying wages and doing everything that a farmer has to spend money on.

Mr. Bennett

All the outgoings?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Davin

It refers to salaries, wages and allowances.

Dr. Ryan

Perhaps I am wrong in including wages—they are separate. The purchase of live stock and seeds would come under the £10,000. As regards Deputy Corry's question, there was a Bill brought before the House and that matter was fully discussed. Members of the Opposition argued very strongly along the lines on which Deputy Corry argued. There was a division and, so far as I know, Deputy Corry voted with me, so there is no use in the Deputy complaining now about it.

Mr. Hughes

I feel very much inclined to indulge in some criticism, but I understand it is not in order to criticise legislation on an Estimate.

Mr. Smith

Every man keeps his end up here.

Vote put and agreed to.