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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 1946

Vol. 99 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 63—Army.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £707,141 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1946, for the Army and the Army Reserve (including certain Grants-in-Aid) under the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts, and for certain administrative Expenses in connection therewith; for the Expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures; for Expenses in connection with the trial and detention of certain persons (No. 28 of 1939, No. 1 of 1940 and No. 16 of 1940, etc.); for certain Expenses under the Offences Against the State Acts, 1939 and 1940 (No. 13 of 1939 and No. 2 of 1940), and the Air-Raid Precautions Act, 1939 (No. 21 of 1939); for Reserve Medical Supplies for Civilian Hospitals; for certain Expenses of the Local Defence Force (including Grants-in-Aid) (No. 28 of 1939); for Expenses in connection with the issue of Medals commemorating the 1916 Rising, etc.; for certain Expenses in connection with Blood Transfusion; for a Grant to the Irish Red Cross Society; for Expenses in connection with the Production of certain Chemicals for Sale; and for a Grant-in-Aid of the provision of premises for a Soldiers' Club.

When the original annual Estimate for the Army Vote, 1945-46, was being compiled, hostilities in Europe had not ceased, and consequently the Estimate was presented in its emergency form whereby all expenditure and receipts were grouped under two broad sub-heads without any details whatsoever. That gross Estimate in that form was for £8,411,942.

The annual Estimate was not taken until the end of June and by that time hostilities had ceased, and consequently the necessity for suppressing detailed information no longer existed. Accordingly, it was then decided to present the Estimate in its old form by sub-heads and with details, subject to the overriding consideration that the total amount of the gross Estimate for £8,411,942 should not be exceeded. Within that amount, the sum of £1,560,000 provided for gratuities was purely a post-emergency item and the balance, £6,851,942, was distributed among the other services indicated by the sub-heads of the Vote on the best information then available. As pointed out at the time to the Dáil, about 61 per cent. of the Vote's expenditure related directly to the pay and maintenance of the Army, and, therefore, the principal factor was the average strength to be maintained during the year. Starting with the actual strength on 1st April, 1945, and assuming a progressive reduction month by month after June, 1945, until the figure of 12,500 all ranks was reached at the end of March, 1946, the Estimate proceeded on the basis of an average of 22,249 all ranks over the whole of the financial year. That assumption pre-supposed that demobilisation would begin in July, but in fact it did not begin until November, so that now in February, 1946, we find as a fact that average maintained was not 22,249 but 23,616 all ranks. That is the main explanation for the additional sums now required under sub-heads A, B and C.

In sub-head A there is also included a sum of about £175,000 for a special payment in March of all deferred pay accrued due up to and including 27th February, 1946. Deputies will recollect that, nearly four years ago, privates received an increase of sixpence a day in pay, and that in addition both N.C.O.s and men received an additional increase of sixpence a day, the payment of which was deferred. All men who have been discharged from the permanent forces have been, or are being, paid such pay, and soldiers serving on a regular engagement have received all credits due up to 28th September, 1945. The only class, therefore, which has not received any of their deferred credits are men serving on a temporary engagement for the duration of the emergency. It will now be possible owing to changed conditions to pay all men, of whatever category, serving in the Army, all deferred credits due up to and including 27th February, 1946, and after that date to treat the sixpence a day deferred pay as an integral portion of their ordinary pay.

For gratuities under sub-head A (4), we require an extra sum of £260,798, because the number of claims which will, it is estimated, be dealt with during the financial year is greater than originally anticipated.

The explanation I have already given regarding the additional amount required for the pay and maintenance of the Army applies also to the amount needed under sub-head C for the pay of civilians. In June we budgeted for 1,511 civilians under this sub-head, but actually it has been found necessary to employ on an average about 1,800, and that is why we require £47,939 more.

As regards the sub-heads for stores, P, Q and R, our commitments in the annual Estimate are greater than anticipated, and claims materialising in respect of deliveries have also been heavier. Under sub-head R (£59,537), for instance, we relied on the fact that in previous years much of our fuel supplies consisted of Army-won turf, but this year, owing to the reduction in the strength of the Army, we were unable to rely on that source of supply and had to go out to tender for our requirements. Again, as regards sub-head Q (£23,811), we had for some time past under order badly needed engineering equipment, and in the absence of an export licence we could not get delivery. With the cessation of hostilities, however, the licence was granted, and we received delivery of the equipment. In the case of sub-head P (£169,729) we have received delivery of guns and fittings, generator sets and Bren-gun and universal carriers which we were seeking for some time past, and which are required for the equipment and training of the Army even in peace time.

The excess on sub-head T (£29,605) is entirely due to the purchase of sites for military purposes. At Limerick we have purchased a site for a new barracks, and work is proceeding thereon; and at Baldonnel and Fermoy, in view of the development of aircraft, we have found it essential to purchase more land for the extension of runways. Under sub-head U, the excess of £18,307 is mainly due to compensation to owners of private property occupied for military use during the emergency. In sub-head Y (2), Army Reserve, the excess (£10,656) is due to the fact that the revised Estimate presented in June allowed for an average of 1,770 all ranks, but the actual average strength throughout the year was 5,843.

Sub-head Y (4) provides Grants-in-Aid for the newly reorganised Local Defence Force described in the Estimate under its Gaelic title of An Fórsa Cosanta Aitiúil. For financial purposes the old force has now practically ceased, and recruiting to the new force has begun. Here I should point out that, in the annual Estimate, a sum of £83,000 was provided for Grants-in-Aid for the old force, and that the most of that money was payable in January, 1946. Owing, however, to the reorganisation of the force payment was suspended and only about £3,000 was actually paid out. There is a saving, therefore, of £80,000 on the original year's Vote against the £15,000 now asked for.

Under sub-head E E we require £1,000 to defray the cost of pre-Truce medals and ribbons. No provision for any such expenditure was made in the annual Estimate.

Under sub-head V (2) we are asking the Dáil to make a Grant-in-Aid of £10,000 towards acquiring and adapting a new soldiers' club in Dublin. Such a club existed in Dublin up to 1931, but from that year until 1941 there was not any. In 1941, owing to the large number of troops garrisoned in Dublin, and also to the large number visiting the Capital either on duty or on leave, the need of a club which would provide meals, lodging and recreation for the soldiers became apparent, and for a time the position was acute. After vainly seeking accommodation in various quarters, the Hospitals' Trust came to our rescue by letting us at a nominal rent certain premises over the Sweepstake Offices in O'Connell Street, and through the generosity of benefactors, to whom I, on behalf of the Army, offer sincere thanks, we were enabled to equip the club. The need of the club and its success may be gauged from the fact that during 1945 the turn-over of the restaurant was £6,112, and that of the dormitory £1,040. These figures represent about 4,779 meals a month, and accommodation for 50 soldiers nightly.

The premises were required for their original purpose and notice of termination was served for 31st August, 1945. Alternative accommodation was then sought, and the management committee eventually secured premises in Parnell Square at a cost of £8,989. The building is now being adapted and renovated and the cost, including the provision of a new hall, will be about £8,250. The total cost, therefore, will be between £17,000 and £18,000, and we are asking in this Estimate for a Grant-in-Aid of £10,000 or two-thirds of the total cost whichever is the lesser.

I have now dealt with the various sub-heads shown in the Estimate. The total gross additional sum required is, as shown, £1,408,037. From that has to be deducted a sum of £374,765 in respect of excess Appropriations-in-Aid, due mainly to the sale of surplus Army stores. From the special sales we expect to realise about £367,000 and we also anticipate a surplus of about £7,765 from the normal activities of the Department. This reduces the gross total to £1,033,272.

However, from that total there must be deducted a sum of £326,131 representing savings on other sub-heads of the Vote not specified in the printed form. The savings are scattered over some 22 other sub-heads of the Vote, but it may be said in brief that the savings were effected mainly either through the cessation of certain services or the non-purchase of certain stores. For instance, the closing down of the old Local Defence Force has effected a technical saving of about £136,641; the repatriation of internees about £11,037, and the termination of the A.R.P. services £30,974. The cancellation of certain store purchases has brought savings of £105,273 and the adjustment of estimation on other sub-heads £42,206, bringing the total technical savings up to £326,131. Hence, deducting the excess appropriations and the technical savings on the annual Estimate the net sum required is £707,141 which the Dáil is now asked to Vote.

Can the Minister tell us in what part of Parnell Square it is proposed to acquire the premises that he has referred to?

It is on the Cavendish Row side, but I cannot remember the number.

The premises were formerly a hotel.

The Westbrook Hotel.

I do not want to enter on a general discussion of this Supplementary Estimate although it deals with many aspects of Army control and administration. In connection with the L.D.F. Grants-in-Aid, can the Minister say if the sum mentioned is intended to provide a gratuity for each man, or is it merely a Grant-in-Aid made to the unit to cover certain expenses? I see that the amount in the sub-head is £1 per man per unit. Would the Minister say if that includes a gratuity, or bonus, to each member of the L.D.F. either on a per capita basis or on a basis of service at so much per year?

I gathered from what the Minister said that the rate of demobilisation has been slower than was anticipated. Speaking from recollection, the rate of demobilisation was estimated to be 2,000 per month. Can the Minister say whether the rate of demobilisation has been less than 2,000 per month, and, if so, by how much? Can he also tell us the number of acres of land acquired at Baldonnel and Fermoy, and the cost per acre? Perhaps he could also tell us the cost of the club that has been acquired, and also if the club, in making provision for the lodging of soldiers, endeavours to make the largest profit possible or is merely catering for the accommodation of those soldiers, who find themselves in town for a night or a few nights, at the cheapest possible rate; because it was suggested that such accommodation should be provided at the cheapest rate which would enable the club to pay its way, and that the club should not charge anything over and above the ordinary outgoings which these services would entail.

During the period of the emergency, Sir, I think the Minister will admit that this House was very generous in voting huge sums of money for Army expenditure, including a very big sum for the provision of warlike stores. We are now asked, in this Supplementary Estimate, to vote a further sum of about £170,000 for the same purpose. I presume that that arises from contracts that were entered into before the war ended, but I would very definitely discourage the Minister and the Government from entering into contracts for the purchase of any further large quantities of warlike stores, because the average person assumes that we are going to have peace for a reasonably lengthy period, and if we are going to have another war, we will not be able to defend ourselves with the same kind of warlike stores or equipment that we might have been called upon to use during the period of the late war.

This is not an Estimate on which we can say very much on questions of policy, but if I were tempted to encourage the Minister to purchase warlike stores and equipment, I should say that he ought to concentrate on the air and the development of our air force. I do not suppose we can expect anybody to acquaint us with some of the secrets connected with the atomic bomb, or to tell us how to counteract any of the effects of the atomic bomb when the next war takes place—and I hope, at any rate, that I will have passed out of this world before that takes place. However, it is a serious thing to authorise the expenditure of huge sums of money on warlike stores if, as we all hope, we are not going to have another war for a long time to come. In that connection, I should like to know from the Minister what percentage of the warlike stores purchased during the late war are still in stock, and what is their stock-taking value at the moment.

That would be a question more for the main Estimate.

Yes, Sir.

Well, then, the Deputy may expect an answer to that on the main Estimate.

I admit that I may be unfair in asking the Minister for that information now.

It can be raised on the main Estimate.

All I want to do is to discourage the Minister in this matter and to ask that, until he gets the authority of the House to do so, he should not enter into any further contracts for the purchase of warlike stores or equipment.

I think, Sir, that it will come as a shock to a great many people to find that nine months after the war has ended we are presented here with a Supplementary Estimate, asking for a sum of money to be voted, by way of a supplement, which is almost equal to the total normal, pre-war sum required for the Army. The Minister—and I tried to follow him very closely—did not say, in respect of the sum mentioned by Deputy Davin: about £169,000 for guns and so on, that that sum was in respect of contracts entered into before the end of the war. If I followed the Minister aright, it was in respect of a new commitment by the Department, and I think that before a sum of £169,000 is voted we ought to get some more justification for it, even on a Supplementary Estimate, than we have got.

Another substantial sum that is mentioned in this Supplementary Estimate is for the provision of new military barracks in various parts of the country. Now, I think—and I speak out of the absolute depths of my ignorance about military matters and military strategy, and particularly about what are the effective military weapons of the day and, still more so, what they will be to-morrow or the day after —we already have enough military barracks in the country. Even if we had not made what, I suppose, will now be called progress in war weapons over the last four or five years, one would have thought that we already had more than sufficient military barracks in this country, and I want to object strongly to voting money for the provision of new military barracks in various parts of this country at a time when we are told that, because of the shortage of necessary building materials, we are unable to provide houses for people who are living to-day in conditions that are resulting in disease—I will not put it any stronger than that. I do not want to over-stress or to over-emphasise this matter, nor do I want to pick holes in the proposal, but I do say that if the Minister for Defence comes into this House and asks for a sum of money—because that, in effect, is what it means—of between £1,000,000 and £1,500,000, as a Supplementary Estimate, in a year in which the House has already voted a very large sum it requires a lot more justification from the Minister than we have got from him. I think that this cannot be treated, if I might say so, as just an ordinary Supplementary Estimate for a token sum.

It is a pretty large sum. Deputies, of course, are confined to what is in the Vote, but it is a large sum.

Yes, Sir, but it practically covers the Army as a whole.

Yes, so far as warlike stores are concerned.

There are so many things covered by what are called savings.

It is admitted that it is a large sum.

I am confining myself as closely as I can to the Supplementary Estimate, and I am dealing only with the larger items. There is another substantial figure in the Estimate. It is a sum of £59,000, the amount required, in addition to the sum already voted, as I understand from the Minister, for the provision of fuel for the Army. We are told that that sum is required because of demobilisation or because Army personnel was not turned over to the bogs, so to speak, this year as in other years, while at the same time we are told that the rate of demobilisation has been far slower than was originally anticipated. The Minister cannot have it both ways. If the personnel of the Army is considerably smaller than it was, then there ought to be some reduction in the amount of fuel required, though I can see that you could have a substantial reduction in personnel without reducing the commitment for keeping the fires going. Those who remain in the Army ought not to be scattered and under as many roofs as it was necessary for them to be during the war period. On the other hand, if the rate of demobilisation has not been as rapid as was anticipated, and the necessity for military manoeuvres has not been as great as it was in previous years, there should have been sufficient personnel available to cut and save whatever fuel was required for the Army. Three items of the Estimate stick out: (1) £169,000 for more guns; (2) a substantial sum for new military barracks; and (3) an additional sum of £59,000 for fuel for the Army. The Minister covered his subheads in the way customary with other Ministers when dealing with Supplementary Estimates. I suggest that this is rather an extraordinary Supplementary Estimate which would require a little more elaboration and justification. The House ought not lightly to vote so substantial a sum without further information.

I should like to raise one or two matters in connection with this Estimate. There is provision in the Estimate for what are described as re-enlistment bounties.

I have no official ground for saying what I propose to say, but it is generally rumoured that recruitment for the Army, of late, has been very slow and unsatisfactory. I have no official grounds for making that statement, but the general view I hear expressed amongst Army personnel is that recruitment is not as good as was anticipated. I should like if the Minister would give us some indication of what the rate of re-enlistment is, and what the rate of recruitment of persons not previously in the Army is. As everybody knows, there is quite substantial recruitment for the British Army at the present time. Quite a considerable number of men contrived to get across the Border, officially and unofficially, to join the British Army. If they are young healthy persons, we ought to endeavour to attract them to our own Army. If they have not been attracted so far, because the conditions are not to their liking, the Minister must give some consideration to making those conditions such as will attract that potential Army personnel which is at present not being attracted. I am talking, more or less, in the dark so far as the rate of recruitment to our own Army is concerned. I am not in a position to express an opinion whether it is up to expectations or not. I should be glad if the Minister would tell us what the Army view is of the present rate of recruitment and whether it is up to the standard anticipated by the Army authorities when they contemplated a peace-time Army of, approximately, 12,000 men.

An item in this Estimate relates to marriage allowances. If it is not inconvenient at this stage—if it is, I shall postpone the question until the main Estimate is before us—I should like the Minister to tell us whether he hopes to be able in the immediate future to take on to the marriage establishment all the married soldiers in the Army. At present, only a proportion of them can get on to the marriage establishment.

The others have to await their turn, which is very unsatisfactory to the married soldier. I think that everybody would desire that married soldiers should be borne, generally, on the marriage establishment of the Army. For some reason or other, that was not found practicable in the past. That is a situation to which the Minister ought to face up and some steps should be taken to overcome the difficulties which prevented the absorption of married soldiers into the marriage establishment. That may be an administrative matter which it is not fair to raise at this stage. If it is not convenient for the Minister to answer now, I am satisfied to leave the matter over for the main Estimate or the Minister might communicate his views to me otherwise than by debate here.

I should like to refer, in the first place, to Item P— Warlike Stores—in respect of which the Minister said the increased cost was £169,000. The Minister explained that that was for stores for which they had entered into commitments and of which delivery had been made unexpectedly or in advance. I should like the Minister to tell us to what amount of warlike stores we are committed, and must take delivery of, because I take it that, in 1939, when the emergency threatened, we would have passed an Estimate for millions. The next question that arises is: Are the stores which have been delivered obsolescent or of the latest type? I differ slightly from some of the previous speakers in that I feel that the Army ought to be equipped with the latest types of arms, including guns, armoured vehicles, tanks, etc. They ought to have samples of all those of the latest types. If those are what we have got, I have not a word to say, but I should like the Minister's assurance that we had not had to take delivery of obsolescent types of equipment.

The next item about which I want to ask the Minister has reference to the Grant-in-Aid of the L.D.F.—£1 per annum in respect of each effective member. I asked him to-day about the overcoats—whether they would involve an expense or a saving. I ask the Minister now—he can answer at his pleasure if he does not find it convenient to answer at the moment— what is he going to do about the L.D.F. overcoats? I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again to-morrow.
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