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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 May 1946

Vol. 101 No. 4

Supplementary Estimate, 1946-47. - Local Government Bill, 1945—Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Sir, it is perhaps not inappropriate that the last words we heard in this House to-night were a suggestion from the Parliamentary Secretary that it might be better if the ordinary courts of the land were done away with altogether and a military tribunal used in their stead. Here we have a measure passing through this House which is, I think, the high water mark—at any rate up to the present— of the Government's attack on democratic procedure in this country. We have long been accustomed to the attitude of the Government that the local council should be controlled by their Party representatives in order that local administration by such bodies should be entirely in accord with the policy dictated by the Government. We have even had recently statements by a Parliamentary Secretary that the representatives, at any rate in a particular county, of the Fianna Fáil Party on a local body would be called together from time to time and instructed as to what their attitude was to be in the local council. We have seen the managerial idea introduced—an idea which was intended in its conception to put a better machine into the hands of the local representatives in order to relieve them of much of the detail in administering their areas and in order to put a more efficient instrument into their hands in carrying out their own local policies in relation to local matters. We have seen that idea carried much further than was originally intended and the county manager made an absolute servant and tool of the Minister; and, by being made such a servant and tool of the Minister for local Government, made the servant and tool of the Fianna Fáil Party. We now go another step further.

This Bill, as originally drafted, suggested that the Minister believed that circumstances might arise when, a rate having been struck, it might be clear that that rate was inadequate for the carrying on of the local services visualised under the Bill as originally drafted; and the Bill, as originally drafted, contained a provision that in such circumstances and on reconsideration of the matter a new rate might be struck by the local body. By the time that we came to discuss this matter in Committee, however, we were presented with an entirely different idea. We were presented with an amendment which, I think, was opposed by every single Deputy in the House, outside of the Government Party Deputies, and a new and brighter idea was introduced to the effect that when the Minister thought that a rate, having been struck, was insufficient to carry on the services of the county or the local body—as he understood them—he could order the local body to reconsider the matter and strike an adequate rate. We now provide in this amendment on Committee that if the local representatives do not take his view of the matter, but stand on their own judgment and take their own decisions in their own way, as local representatives dealing with local matters, and decide not to accept the Minister's judgment, the Minister can clear them out and put in a representative of his to take complete control of local finance, to strike whatever rate the Minister may dictate to him should be struck; in other words, to make, levy, collect and recover the rate. It is obvious, therefore, that in the passage of this Bill through this House the Minister has taken advantage of the Committee Stage to pass an amendment by which he can, when the local council, having struck a local rate, decline to vary it in accordance with his instructions, remove them from their position of power and responsibility in representing the local ratepayers and put his own representative into their place; and he can, by all the powers at the command of the Government, through him take control over their pockets and collect whatever rate the Minister in his discretion decides shall be collected.

Now, these powers are taken by a Government who came into office originally on a plank in their programme that they were going to derate agricultural land and reduce taxation generally. Far from doing that, the total amount of rates collected in the year 1945-46 was £3,000,000 more than the total of the rates collected before they came into office and £2,000,000 of that was from county councils. The total amount of taxation raised by taxes from 1932 up to the present year has increased by £17,000,000 and the whole tendency of increased taxation has been to shift the weight of the increasing burdens put upon the country by the Government from the taxes, which cannot now bear any more, on to the rates: and we have a number of Bills going through the House at the present time tending to increase the rates more and more—that is, rates that have been increased already by £3,000,000, to increase them still further by the powers the Minister is now taking to impose still further on the ratepayers. It is in that particular atmosphere that the Minister is taking under this measure the power to wipe out any local authority that does not strike a rate high enough according to his outlook on the situation.

It has been customary here in looking back over the times that have passed to realise that the introduction of local government, as we now know it, and the representative nature of local government, as we now know it, was the beginning of the political education of our people. It was through local government that they developed a sense of responsibility, on the one hand, and, on the other, a sense of power; it was through local government that they developed the capacity to administer local affairs. The general circumstances created by the Fianna Fáil Party's approach to local government have been such as to render local representative work distasteful to a very, very large number of our citizens and to a very, very large number of excellent people who have found it more convenient and more dignified to mind their own business—their own private business—and to avoid giving the public service what they would like to give because they are not allowed to give that public service in an atmosphere in which Christian, dignified and patriotic people would like to give it. They are up against the Fianna Fáil machine.

The public life of our country has been made all the poorer by the withdrawal of these excellent people from public service because of the circumstances created by the Fianna Fáil Party. Now, there are those who still voluntarily give local service on local bodies and I sincerely hope that a large number of them will continue to do that work; but they are going to be put into a more undignified position, if you like, whereby they can be wiped out at any moment by an Order of the Minister who has power to dictate that they shall do certain things in their locality. If the local representative body decide that it is not a thing that can be done and decline to provide, out of the pockets of their fellow-ratepayers, the money for it, they can be wiped out by a stroke of the Minister's pen. The Minister is taking these powers. If I were unconcerned with the order and dignity of public life in the country, I would be tempted to say the Minister is welcome to these powers, because, great as has been the patience of our people, great as has been their bewilderment as to what they ought to do in face of the policy and tactics adopted by the Government Party, our people have not lost all sense of public responsibility and all sense of human dignity. They realise that unless individual people and individual representatives in various parts of the country stand manfully, courageously and intelligently over local problems and local work, this country will be destroyed. Even the very circumstances and difficulties of the last six years have awakened in the people a sense of the fact that they must trouble themselves and exert themselves in looking after their public affairs. There is already an awakening throughout the country of that sense of responsibility. The Minister will find that the wiping out of local government in the way in which he is doing it administratively and is now planning to do it in a more wholesale way, will not be tolerated by out people. Our people realise that unless the local affairs of Cork are carried out with local intelligence and under local direction with a local sense of responsibility—the same applies in Roscommon and Galway—the affairs of the country as a whole will not be properly looked after.

The strength of our people has never been the strength of one man. The strength of our people has been the democratic strength spread throughout the country as a whole, where individual people realised their responsibilities and co-operated with one another to stand up to their responsibilities. It is the systematic policy of the Fianna Fáil Party to destroy that strength. They have destroyed it to a certain extent. There are things that you may damage but there are things that you may not wipe out completely and the Minister, I think, has gone to the end of his tether in attempting to wipe out local responsibility and local sense of service throughout the country. This Bill will not be the tool or the weapon in the hands of the Government that they expect it to be. The country may be in for a certain time of difficulty when the new great plans of the Minister for Local Government and his two lieutenants reach the point of being put into effect, but when these plans and the cost of them disclose themselves and when the relationships between these things to the actual needs and capacity of the country reveal themselves to local ratepayers and their representatives the Minister will meet people that he will not be able to overawe or overcome. While certain difficulties may arise between local bodies and the totalitarian-minded Ministry we have now, I am quite sure the result will be an awakening of Irish democracy to its responsibility, its rights and its duties.

The ambitions of men have been responsible for the disasters and calamities that have occurred in Europe, ambition to wield absolute and complete power over the lives of the people. One would expect, in a country such as ours, that the advice and warnings of that august authority, Pope Pius XII, would be heeded by the Government. Not so. Under this particular Bill, if the House accepts it now in its Final Stage, the Minister for Local Government will have reached the zenith of his ambition, to sit in the Custom House and to dictate to every local authority in the country. We have been often told, in defence of the managerial system, that one particular power was the function of the local authority, namely, the power of the purse, that the manager had only executive power, and that if the local authority did not provide the moneys, the manager could do little about it.

Now, the last power vested in the people of this supposed-to-be democratic country is going to be filched from them and vested in the all-powerful dictator in the Custom House. It is an extraordinary state of affairs if the Fianna Fáil Party are going to vote for that. The Minister for Local Government is quite satisfied that the people of this country are capable of electing a Fianna Fáil Government and that they show a high degree of intelligence in electing a Fianna Fáil Government, but that they are intelligent only to that extent and that so far as the administration of their local affairs is concerned they are utterly incapable of electing a body from among themselves to administer and, because of that disability on the part of the people of this country, that it is now necessary for the Government to vest absolute power in a man, the individual Minister, whose ambition it is to wield absolute power over the local authorities in this country. The expansion in local services that we were promised the Minister is going to provide regardless of the capacity of the people to pay. No matter what the representatives of the people may think of these services, no matter what their practical experience may be, no matter what their idea is about the capacity of the people to pay, once the dictator in the Custom House says it, it must be done and the local authority can do nothing more about it. As a matter of fact under Section 30 the Minister can, by Order, wipe out the local authority. He can threaten to proceed, and he can proceed, against the local authority by mandamus. Considering the average member of a local authority in this country and his capacity to meet the fairly substantial costs that he might be mulcted in if the Minister had recourse to mandamus proceedings, it is a form of intimidation and it is unlikely that the average man would take the risk of involving himself in considerable cost. The whole idea behind this section is repugnant to the idea of the rights and privileges and authority that are vested in the people. It is trampling on the rights of the people and is arrogating to one individual here absolute power to destroy and to trample on the last vestige of local government in this country.

Some day, if the House accepts this measure as it stands, we shall bitterly regret having set up dictators in one form or another. It has been pointed out that the local authority is the training ground for parliamentary representatives. We all appreciate the necessity for some means of affording training for the representation of the people in their native Parliament. Is any man, possessed of manhood, prepared to serve a local authority under an Act of this sort? Is any man prepared to be so servile that he will act under a Minister with the absolute power which is being taken in Section 30? We have protested against these powers on the various stages of this Bill, particularly the Committee Stage. Surely we should learn from the history of recent years and the advice of eminent authorities that at all costs we should preserve the authority of the people, government of the people, by the people, for the people. What sort of definition shall we have of democracy when we have this piece of legislation in operation? Is it too late to appeal to the Minister to reconsider this matter before he takes the final step? Has his ambition blinded him to the realities of the situation? Does he not realise that the people will not stand for this sort of thing? I suppose he is losing contact with the people. If he were not, he would appreciate that they do not want this kind of legislation and will not stand for it. During the passage of this measure, there has been opposition from every section of the House. Very wise advice was given to the Minister from his own benches by Deputies with years of experience of local government. He was not prepared to accept that advice. He is machining this piece of legislation through the House, knowing that, in the ranks of his own Party, there are Deputies who will be forced to go into the Lobby and vote for it against their own will and judgment. I think that it is a most discreditable piece of business.

It is very difficult patiently to discuss the type of speech which we have just heard from Deputy Hughes, and such as we heard, immediately preceding him, from his leader, Deputy Mulcahy. We are told that the purpose of the Government in putting through this measure is to make it easier for them to give effect to other measures which are at present before the House, or are in preparation, to improve the condition of the people.

Deputy Hughes said that the people will not stand for those measures, that they are opposed to them and that, if the representatives of the people had their way, these measures would not be given effect. Here is an Assembly in which the people are represented. Although I know that members of the Fine Gael Party make very grandiose claims for the amount of public support which they have, I have yet to hear them declare that they are entitled to assume the reins of government in this country as representing the majority of the people. A remarkable change has come over the policy of Fine Gael within the past twelve months. In 1943, 1944 and 1945, when the Government was beset with international difficulties of a most complex and critical kind, the leaders of Fine Gael were clamouring for more and more plans and more and more grandiose schemes. We were told about the conditions which were being offered to the people on the other side of the water, about the far-reaching measures which were there being enacted, dealing with housing, public health and transport problems. A little over twelve months ago, when Europe was still involved in war, this Government could not go quickly enough for Deputy Mulcahy and his followers. We could not conceive plans sufficiently far-reaching or extravagant for them. Of course, the sole reason they were in the forefront of those who were clamouring for what they called national reconstruction and post-war reconstruction was that they thought that the Government's hands were so fully occupied with the immediate and terrible problems arising out of the European war that we had not had time to plan or think of the future. Now, when it is manifest that our statements, and our replies to them, during that period were, in fact, true, that these plans were being prepared, that Ministers were considering what the post-war situation was likely to be, that we had planned to develop our road system, our transport system, our tourist industry, our agricultural industry and prepared far-reaching measures for the improvement of the public health and the improvement of local administration in general, the tactics of the Opposition have changed. We have Deputy Hughes to-night disclosing to the people the real motive behind the obstructionist campaign which is being waged in this House not only against this Bill but against the Public Health Bill. It was carried to such an extent in regard to a Bill to improve the health of the people and to enable us to survive as a race that no fewer than 600 amendments were put down to that measure. Twelve months ago, they were clamouring for us to be progressive: to-day they want us to be as reactionary as themselves.

Not towards dictatorship, anyway.

In that connection, perhaps it is well to recall a significant statement which was made by a leading member of the Opposition, a very influential and powerful member, Deputy Dockrell, in Dún Laoghaire. That Deputy told us that, for the past six years, the Fine Gael policy has been in cold storage. That is not an inapt remark.

Well frozen.

The Fine Gael policy has been in cold storage. Now, the only things I know of that are put in cold storage are carcases that have been butchered and bled.

And rabbits.

And to-day the carcase——

Is very much alive.

——of the Fine Gael policy is taken out of cold storage and we are witnessing what is not an unusual occurrence when dead meat is taken out of the refrigerator. You all know, I suppose, what happens when something without life in it is put into a cold chamber—you do not prevent the process of decay, you merely delay the putrefaction of the corpse, and when the corpse is taken out of cold storage and exposed to the ordinary temperature and action of the atmosphere, a very evil-smelling aroma emanates from it.

A magnificent answer. It is very creditable.

That exactly describes what we are witnessing to-day. The carcase of old reactionary opposition, the policy which from 1932 to 1939 was operated and was given effect to by the Opposition Party, has gone putrid, on being taken out of cold storage. What was that policy from 1932 to 1939 but one of continuous opposition to every progressive move made by this Government on no matter what plane—in the political field, in the industrial field, in the agricultural field and in the field of social welfare? They opposed us in every constitutional development we made. They opposed us in regard to the Constitution, they opposed us in regard to industrial development. At a time when they are opposing us in relation to the Public Health Bill, it is well to recall that there was a time when they opposed us in relation to wheat, beet and peat. When we increased the old age pension, when we brought in our measures dealing with the conditions of employment —no matter what we did——

And the Standstill Order.

——to try to improve the conditions of the people in the period 1932-39—we were met by the bitter opposition of the Fine Gael Party. "The country could not stand it, the country could not afford it"— the same old catch-cry as they are using to-day. That is not to be wondered at, when we are quite frankly taking pains to ensure, in relation to measures which may be enacted by this Government or by our successors, that the old obscurantist mentality which animated Fine Gael from 1932 to 1939 and which was then put into cold storage and has now been taken out again, is not going to be allowed to prevent the onward progress of the people of this country. Our people are entitled, if the country can afford it, to have the same advantages and facilities as people have elsewhere. It is not more than two months since Deputy Mulcahy was acting like an emigration agent in the old days or a recruiting sergeant for the British Army, when he was telling the people from the platform of this House——

The less you say about the British Army the better.

——from the forum of this country, of the magnificent conditions they could enjoy if they would leave this country.

Did you not try to leave it yourself?

He then criticised the Government because we frankly said we could not give the people of this country everything that they have in Great Britain. We could not give them their inflated wages, but we could give them——

Their passports.

——in return for their wages, something to eat.

Black bread.

On a point of order, is all this included in the Bill or is this what should have been in the Bill?

This is in reply to the speeches made by Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Hughes. I can quite easily appreciate how hard it must be for Deputies Hughes, Keating and Giles and their outlier, Deputy Davin, to remain silent when I am exposing the inward purpose of their policy and making it clear that the old carcase has been taken out of cold storage.

Will the Minister answer this one question: is he going to be a dictator or not? That is the net point.

I am quite prepared to answer that. I never said "The brown shirts have been victorious in Germany, the black shirts in Italy and the blue shirts will be victorious in Ireland". On the contrary.

There would have been no blue shirts if the Government had conducted themselves. The blue shirts were not armed; it was only in self defence that they had to wear blue shirts.

The Deputy must allow the Minister to continue.

The Minister is talking through his hat. I want to tell the truth and I am telling him the blue shirts did not carry arms.

The Deputy must sit down. He is out of order.

I am not out of order and I am not going to stop.

The Deputy must leave the House if he is not going to keep in order.

It is not the first time I left it, in a good cause, and I will leave it and be delighted to get away from such a damnable crowd.

It is hard to listen to him, right enough.

One word more and I have finished.

The Minister is concluding on the last stage of this Bill and must be allowed to continue.

The Minister is the most disorderly man in the House.

He should not be allowed to sling a lot of muck around. It has no relation to the Bill.

It is time we heard something about the Local Government Bill.

The Minister has been comparing blue shirts to black shirts.

I take it the Minister was leading up to the point.

Let him deal with the measure before the House and not be mud slinging.

With your permission, Sir, as at least implied, Deputy Hughes asked me a question and, even though it is quite clear that, when a Deputy asks and gets a different answer from what he expected, it does not please, I want to say that, with such a record, I am not a dictator and I do not seek dictatorial powers. I seek only that, as long as I am Minister for Local Government and Public Health, I will have the powers at my disposal to enable me to make the law of this Oireachtas effective, to enable me to make the writ of this Parliament run and be obeyed. It is with that end in view that every single provision in this Local Government Bill— which is now about to pass from this House to another place and which, within a short time, will become law— has been inserted.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 44; Níl, 24.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colbert, Michael.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Daly, Francis J.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Furlong, Walter.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lydon, Michael F.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard S.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Davin, William.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • O'Donnell, William F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Ó Ciosáin and Ó Briain; Níl: Deputies McMenamin and Giles.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn