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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Jun 1946

Vol. 101 No. 17

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 5—Office of the Minister for Finance.

An tAire Airgeadais

Tairgim:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £56,800 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1947, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Oifig an Aire Airgeadais, lena n-áirítear Oifig an Phághmháistir Ghenerálta.

That a sum not exceeding £56,800 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1947, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Finance, including the Paymaster-General's Office.

As Deputies will see, the net increase in this Estimate this year is £1,447. That increase is accounted for by a slight change of staff, and by the usual incremental increases, as well as by some change in the emergency bonus.

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. In listening to the few brief remarks of the Minister a stranger to this Assembly might be excused if he were surprised to learn that, in these few brief words, the taxpayers have been asked for £85,000, and as to how the £85,000 is to be expended, or what value is received by the taxpayers for the £85,000, the answer was in these few brief words. I deplored on very many occasions the sapping and undermining effect it has on every Minister to have an over-all disciplined regimented majority in this House. I do not believe there is a democratic Assembly where the head of the most important Department of any State comes in and, in brief words, intermixed between two languages, asks so casually for an additional £85,000.

Have we not discussed finance solidly for the last two months? I do not know what more the Deputy wants.

I listened to and I heard the Minister discussing patriotism, murder, and a great number of other things rather than attending to the business of finance. We had the Minister in a car that cost a lot of finance touring the country and discussing things far removed from finance and that kind of glib interruption is not going to assist in getting £85,000 from the taxpayers as easily as the Minister thinks it will be forthcoming. In this country, as well as in every other country, it must be established beyond yea or nay that the only Department to which the taxpayers can look either for protection or any sign of guardianship of the public purse is to the Treasury, the Department of Finance. If there is laziness, slackness or casualness at the head of that Department, then money got by the gruelling process out of the pockets of the people is casually and lightly spent. We have ample evidence in the Book of Estimates before us of the manner in which the functions, or what should be the functions, of that particular Department have been neglected in recent years.

We have in the general Estimates in this Book a jump over a period of ten years in the demands made on the taxpayers of £20,000,000. That increase of £20,000,000 was the exact sum that it cost to run all this State and all these services before the Minister and his fellow watchdogs took charge of the public purse. The increase in that decade alone is equivalent approximately to the cost of running the State at the time when the Minister was denouncing the Government of the day for squandering the taxpayers' money and acting as a leech and a vampire on the people. Is that any reason why there should be a vote of confidence in the Minister and in his administration? I will probably get the usual cheeky frothy, empty reply, namely, social services. It is not the increase of social services that is responsible for the enormous increase in the demand made on the taxpayers. The big end of the increase in the demand made on the taxpayers is the increase in State services, the increased cost of Government Departments in themselves—the increased cost of the police, the enormously increased cost of the post-war army— pomp, ceremony, and satellites. That is where the taxpayer's money goes.

Does the Deputy intend to rehash the Budget debate?

The Deputy's intention is to deal with the figures in front of him and to ascertain, so far as he can, what services the community is getting from the Minister and his Department for the vast sum of money which is so casually asked for. Every head of a Department, introducing his Vote to Parliament and asking Parliament to salt the taxpayers for the cost of his Department, gives some brief survey of work done, of things accomplished, of plans and proposals for the future. This Minister, the headline for all the others, the man who should be most concerned about the moneys abstracted from the taxpayer, comes in here, and, in a brief sentence, asks for an increased sum, a sum never asked for before by anybody sitting in his position as head of that Department. If we do not get an explanation at the opening, let us have some explanation at the finish. Let us be told why this Department, with a country no greater in territory, with a country substantially smaller in population than it was ten years ago, requires £10,000 or £15,000 more from the taxpayer.

What is the justification for the increase every single year not only in money but in numbers? Is it because, on top, we are reaching a higher scale of incompetence which is reflected by requiring more assistants of one kind or another underneath, but inside, that Department, or is it that the increased ability, energy and watchfulness of the present holder of that high and responsible office is making more work for the people in that Department? Somewhere there must be an explanation and sometime this Dáil is going to stick its toes in the ground and refuse to give more money merely because more money is asked for, without any reason given, and sometimes even the troops behind the Minister will wake up to their responsibility to the taxpayers and will ask the questions I am asking.

Why should it cost more every year for the last ten or 15 years to run this Department? Why should that one Department, which has within itself no social services, cost more? Why should there be a greater number of assistants to wait on Minister Aiken than on Minister Ó Ceallaigh, Minister MacEntee or Minister Blythe? Why should the same amount of work require more people and cost more money? As the cost of that Department goes up, if we are to judge by the Book of Estimates, the vigilance of that Department goes down. The men in charge of the brake are getting more slack on the job and the brakes are becoming inefficient, until we have reached a point at which the brakes on expenditure are completely gone.

With regard to the Minister's administration of his Department, I want some information on a matter which appeared in the public Press within the last five or six days. I want to know the legality of the action taken by the Minister, and, further, whether the Minister's action is not in absolute conflict with and a defiance of the Constitution. I have no inside information. I have not been in touch with the person concerned or the organisation concerned, and I have been approached neither by the person concerned nor by the organisation concerned. We read in the daily Press that the Minister for Finance, as Minister for Finance, has sent an ultimatum to a high officer of the British Legion, apparently instructing him to vacate that office, or, presumably, to vacate his position in the Civil Service. According to the papers again, that civil servant has held that high office in the British Legion for a great number of years—I think 20 or 25 years was mentioned. If there was anything illegal, anything improper or anything irregular in the dual position he filled, that irregularity or illegality was there in a time of Minister Seán T. Ó Ceallaigh and Minister Seán MacEntee, and was never questioned or challenged.

Every Parliament has to be far more vigilant with regard to the democratic rights and constitutional freedom of small minorities than it has to be with regard to the democratic rights of big minorities or large majorities. This organisation is an organisation of men who went through terrible times together, an organisation for comradeship, an organisation run along the benevolent lines of all trying to help the one and each trying to help the other. The only offence the members of that organisation ever committed was that they fought with that valour and distinction which carried on the grand name of Irish soldiers down through generations and centuries for courage and bravery and valour. But they fought in a uniform which was not ours—we had no uniform of our own at that time—and they fought at the express wish of the majority of the elected representatives of this country at the time, of men who could claim, to a much greater extent, a mandate to express the voice of the people than any 49 per cent. or 50 per cent. of the electorate as represented by the present Government can claim at present. That was their offence in the eyes of the Minister. Now, when they are aged and small in numbers and with immense gaps in their ranks, now is the time for the bully to wield his stick; now is the time for the blackthorn of the thug to be used against a small and aged minority that deserves nothing but respect, support and understanding from the people of this country. The Constitution, under which we live and function, and the Constitution, under which they live and function, guarantees, amongst other pious phrases, the right of free association. What is the use in guaranteeing the right of free association to any person or people if they are simultaneously told: "If you exercise that right you will lose your livelihood"? This Parliament is not voting £1,700 a year plus cars, plus drivers, plus, plus, plus 100 other items to any particular individual to give him a position of power from which he can emit his political spite against any minority or group of people in this country. It is misusing the office and it is abusing the powers of the office. If those men, or the servants of this State, have not the right to join any association of old comrades, organised on political lines, in order to commemorate and review their experiences in the past and revive the old comradeship and friendship, then that clause in the Constitution is a sham and a humbug.

If that clause in the Constitution means anything at all it means that people, when they exercise those constitutional rights, must be protected from victimisation, from threats of loss of employment and must, above all, be protected from a Minister with the mentality and the outlook of the bigoted warped mind of the ornament that at present decorates the top of the great Department of Finance of this country.

Deputy O'Higgins has been as eloquent as usual. I think it was lucky for him that he had some case to raise on this particular Vote to justify his motion to refer back beyond what he had a week or two ago when he first put down the motion. I do not propose in dealing with the question of the ordinary administrative Estimate of the Department of Finance to tire the House with a second Budget speech or another speech similar to that which I made on the Finance Bill. Deputy O'Higgins was not here a week or two ago when we were discussing the Finance Bill. As a matter of fact it went through inside an hour or two. The purpose of that Bill was the implementation of the terms of the Budget speech. I do not know where Deputy O'Higgins was on that particular occasion; at least he was not here and very few members of his Party were here to discuss it. I am asking this year, as I have already pointed out, on the Estimate for the Department of Finance for an increase of £1,400—that is, an increase of £1,400 on an Estimate which was last year £83,700 odd. I think I gave a very reasonable explanation for that very small percentage increase—that it was due to the normal incremental rises which civil servants get from time to time as they go up in numbers of years' service. That was the principal item, plus the emergency bonus, plus a couple of changes in staff. Actually in the Minister's Department, there were 127 civil servants last year and there are 127 civil servants in the present financial year.

Deputy O'Higgins raised one question on administration during the year —that was what appeared in the papers of yesterday in regard to a certain civil servant who was instructed by me to vacate the chairmanship of a certain organisation. Deputy O'Higgins alleged that this was the first occasion on which this particular gentleman was taken to task in regard to this matter. The fact is that both my predecessors had trouble with him and they got an undertaking from him that when he spoke in public he would keep in mind the terms of the circular which was issued in 1932 regarding civil servants and politics. This particular civil servant is a member of the British Ex-Servicemen's Legion.

As chairman of that body it was his duty to speak from time to time in public and he found it very difficult to keep from crossing the political line. He was warned on a couple of occasions and undertook to abide by the terms of the Finance circular of 1932 regarding the participation of civil servants in politics. This year, however, he again broke the rule and I gave a direction that, as he had proved himself incapable while acting as chairman of this organisation of keeping the rules, he must vacate the chairmanship.

What did he say wrong?

I think the House is entitled to know that.

Deputies should not interrupt the Minister when he is speaking.

I think I am entitled to ask the question.

The civil servant in question interfered in politics and made a political speech; that is what he said wrong.

Will we get a copy of the speech?

The Deputies can get a copy of the speech. They can go back over the papers just as easily as I can. At any rate, one part of it appeared in the Irish Times of the 7th February, 1946.

The 7th February, 1946?

The 7th February.

And when was action first taken?

Action has been in process of being taken since the 7th February.

It took five months.

There was no violent outburst on the spur of the moment, as the Deputy alleged.

It took five months to write the letter.

It took five months to get to the stage that the final direction was given.

I can understand now why you want all this money.

The Deputy does not know why I want all this money, but I shall tell him. The people in this country are entitled when they pay a civil servant to know that that civil servant will serve any Government elected by the people impartially. If civil servants are allowed to interfere in political matters the people have no such guarantee.

Who is the judge?

He is not the only civil servant who has been dealt with. The Deputy alleged that the reason why I dealt with this civil servant was because he was a member of the British Legion. I have more respect for men who fight for a cause, if they believe it to be right, than the Deputy has.

You are saying that.

There was a civil servant who fought for the same cause that I fought for and became a member of an Old I.R.A. Association. He became secretary of the organisation and he crossed the political line.

On the wrong side.

The Deputy would say that it was the right side from my point of view.

We want to know the history of it.

I will tell the Deputy the history. He attacked a member of the Deputy's Party in public as secretary of this Old I.R.A. organisation. I said to him through the official: "You must not do this sort of thing," and he gave an undertaking that he would keep out of it. It was on the second occasion that I dealt with him, when he attacked a Deputy. He offended before that and he was warned about taking part in politics. On the second occasion in which he offended—that was when he signed, as secretary of this Old I.R.A. Association, an attack on a member of the Deputy's Party—he was told that as he could not keep within the rules as secretary of this organisation he would have to give up his secretaryship, and he gave it up. That was one case. The other day a young civil servant broke the rule. His attention was called to it and he was asked to give guarantees that he would keep the rule in future. He would not give them and he had to be dismissed.

It is my duty as Minister for Finance to hand on to my successor, whoever he may be and whatever political Party he belongs to, a Civil Service that is out of politics. This community is giving civil servants a reasonable livelihood, having regard to their own standards, and they are entitled to expect that the odd one who wants to break out will behave as 99.9 per cent. of the civil servants have always behaved and that is, whatever their private political opinions may be, to display reticence in political matters and not to be airing their opinions on one side or the other. This particular gentleman, because he broke the understanding he gave while acting as chairman, was asked to resign from the chairmanship of this organisation and not to speak at public functions of the organisation.

We are dealing with the case of a civil servant who was a very high officer of an important organisation. This action of the Minister's was taken a week or eight days ago. Surely if the Minister wants to justify his action along the lines that this man was engaging in politics he must have in his file there the particular statement on which he based his judgment.

Will you read it out?

I had better read the whole report so that it can go on the record.

I have no objection. I asked for it.

It appeared in the Irish Times of the 7/2/1946:

"The position of the ex-servicemen in Éire on their return was mentioned by Mr. A.P. Connolly, the chairman of the Southern Area Council, at the British Legion Conference at Belfast yesterday. After saying that the position was causing grave concern, he spoke of the petition sent to the then British Premier asking for something to be done for the men whose unemployment contributions had been paid to the British Exchequer but who found there was no unemployment assistance for them when they went back to Éire. Things generally were in such a bad way that the best advice they in Éire could give a man was to get back to Britain again during his 56 days' leave. It was a sad state of affairs and he did not know what the position would be with many of the men if they had not the British Legion. He wanted to take that opportunity of thanking the Legion as a national organisation for their goodness, their breadth of vision and their benevolence to Éire. In Éire they were spending about £50,000 a year, but their claims were many and the demands so great that the individual sums were microscopically small. Were it not for the British Legion the plight of Éire ex-servicemen would be infinitely worse. The Legion was a God-send and there was no part of His Majesty's Dominions that had such need for that organisation as Éire. In Northern Ireland preference was given to ex-servicemen, but in Éire it was the reverse. The Éire Army was being demobilised and he supposed that they could not find fault with any Government in looking after its own soldiers."

The next part of the report refers to what Sir Basil Brooke said.

The position is that this man advised people to get out of the country. The Minister had an expensive State Department for some years back to assist 250,000 people to get out of the country. Is one thing proper and the other improper? He helps members of his own organisation to get out of the country. At an immense cost, the Department of External Affairs helps 250,000 people to get out of the country and over to Great Britain.

Anyone in this country can advocate that people should stay in it or go out of it, but if they accept the responsibilities and the duties of civil servants it is not their job to interfere in politics, to tell people to go out of the country or to stay in it or to vote for one Party or another.

Where are the politics in that statement?

We have the mentality of the censorship here again. There are no politics in that. Refer it to any impartial tribunal. It is bitter victimisation.

Are we to take it from the Minister that it was on that statement and that statement alone that the Minister's action was taken?

On that statement, following upon many other statements that this particular gentleman had made in the past and when he was called to account he gave an undertaking that he would behave himself.

Will the Minister be so kind as to point out in that statement anything that could be branded as a political statement?

We will let the people do it for themselves.

The Minister has already shown the people. The Minister has sought to justify this action of his on the sole ground that the chairman of this organisation indulged in politics.

Would the Minister be kind enough to point out the politics in the statement he has now read?

The people are not quite as ignorant as Deputy Morrissey would try to indicate.

It is not a question of Deputy Morrissey's ignorance; it is a question as to whether people are going to have any freedom in this State or have a jack-boot Minister.

The people would have very little freedom if Deputy O'Higgins' Blueshirts had control.

We had Mr. Aiken's gun bullies.

We had to keep the thugs in their place.

The Blueshirts stayed here and did their stuff and they did not retreat across the Border under the shadow of the Ulster Constabulary.

They gave us what we could not get from the Minister—freedom of speech.

There is plenty of freedom of speech. I did not interrupt the Deputy.

Will the Minister answer my question, instead of trying to create a smoke-screen? Where is the politics in that man's statement?

The people of this country are wise enough to see the politics, without my telling them.

The Minister must justify his action here.

Of course. I have justified it.

Point out the politics.

If the people are not satisfied with my justification of it, they have their remedy and they will take it. The people had their remedy against the Deputy's political Party and took it in due course. If they think I am not acting fairly and reasonably in this case, in standing up for their rights to have an impartial and faithful Civil Service that will not interfere in politics, they will take their remedy.

That is not politics.

I have yet to see the Minister acting impartially in anything.

In the course of his statement, the Minister said that Mr. Connolly had appealed to the people to vote. There is not one word about voting in the statement.

I said no such thing.

The Minister did. It is on the records.

Or taken off.

The Minister has given us to understand that this gentleman held a high executive position in the Civil Service.

Is the Deputy making a speech? He may ask the Minister a question.

This gentleman was also chairman of an association established for the purpose of relieving distressed ex-soldiers who fought in the British Army. This man has advised them the best method to adopt in order to help themselves. He made no reference which could be considered disparaging. The Minister is unable to point out the politics.

The Deputy is making a speech. The Vote has been completed, but he may ask a question.

The Minister will not answer the question.

I cannot compel him.

As one Deputy not interested in the British Legion or having any connection or association with that organisation, but standing here for fair play for citizens, I want the Minister to point out to the House where, in the statement he has read to the House, there was politics or any disparaging statement regarding citizens or institutions in this State.

This is worse than the Noel Hartnett case, infinitely worse.

Question—"That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration"—put, and declared lost.
Vote put and agreed to.
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