I would like to say that I will, but the Act, in fact, is very new, and, as Deputy Allen knows—he is a very old member of this House—it is unusual to have an Act amended within a very short time after its passing. I can only say that we shall endeavour to assess the extent of the difficulty in this matter and it will then be further considered. I cannot promise legislation in connection with a matter of this kind. I realise that in cases of this kind there is bound to be a considerable amount of hardship involved in a certain number of cases. However, the matter will be considered further in the light of experience.
Deputy Cogan suggested the stanardisation of the type of houses to be erected in this country. I am not sufficiently an authority on that matter to say whether such a policy would be good or bad in the end. As the House knows, there is a committee set up for the purpose of considering and giving a certain variety in the matter of design in housing. I would not like to feel that we would set official sanction to a policy of standardising houses generally throughout the country. I do not think that would be a desirable thing to do. So far as that can be given effect to for the purpose of keeping costs down to the lowest possible figure, it is a matter which might bear examination. Deputy Cogan also made a very interesting suggestion in regard to the future of local authorities. He suggested that certain members of the local authorities should be asked to devote themselves to the work of particular departments. I am not so sure how that would work out in practice, but I think it would be a good thing for local authorities in the future to appoint certain sub-committees at the annual meeting to act as executive committees in matters requiring rapid decision. Such committees would, too, provide a useful liaison for the local authority itself in the full and free use of its powers as the elected representatives of the people. That matter will come in for early consideration in connection with whatever proposals or changes will be made in the future.
Deputy de Valera made, in my opinion, certain very useful suggestions towards the solution of certain difficulties with regard to sites for housing in the City of Dublin. All those have been noted and they will be considered as fully as possible. Certain suggestions were made as to the location of sites for large groups of houses and I feel sure that those suggestions, when brought to the notice of the housing council of the local authority, will get full consideration. Like him, I, too, am concerned with the rather steep increase in rates throughout the country. The present increase in rates is, of course, due to a large variety of causes, causes well within the knowledge of members of this House. Increases in salaries have had to be provided for officials of the local bodies, as also have increases in wages. I am not suggesting in the latter case that the demands of the employees have been met to the extent to which I would have liked to have seen them met. But all those factors contributed to the increases in rates. Other factors bearing upon the increases came into effect in recent years and they all tended to add considerably to the charges imposed on local authorities.
I would like to see a more active interest taken in local affairs by the members of local bodies. That is a hope I entertain in connection with whatever changes are made in the structure and management of local government. One of the things I have observed in recent years is the gradual waning interest shown by local representatives in their own local affairs. I regret very much that that should be so. I have been present at estimates meetings of a local body where very large sums of money were under consideration for disbursement over a period of 12 months, the programme having been laid down. I have often regretted the paucity of comment on these very large commitments under consideration. I remember a time when every single item was closely scrutinised at the estimates meeting. I am not so sure that I was then happy about that close scrutiny but, in the end, I realised that it was a good and useful policy to examine closely into expenditure and to show the result of that examination in whatever alteration could reasonably be made. I would encourage local authorities to have in future a preliminary examination of their estimates made by a special committee of the council in order that a careful examination might be made of expenditure. It is inevitable that certain substantial increases in rates should have occurred. I regret that they should have occurred at a time when the responsibilities of local authorities in connection with housing and other matters are increasing. To a large extent, however, we are powerless to avert these increases at the present time.
Deputy Keane referred to a number of local matters in his constituency, including the case of a rate collector in Cork who was a temporary official of the council over a number of years and in respect of whom repeated applications were made by the county council over a number of years for sanction for his permanent employment. It is a fact that he was successful in qualifying for appointment to a permanent post by passing the examination of the minor legal appointments system arranged by the local bodies. He will be happy to know that the matter need no longer trouble him because the question has been settled and sanction has been given in that particular case to a permanent appointment.
Deputy T.F. O'Higgins referred to the question of the issue of licences and the delays that occurred. It is inevitable that there should be certain delays in connection with the issue of licences. I hope that we shall reach a stage shortly when the whole position in regard to the issue of licences will be considerably eased. The recent removal of the internal control of timber—a very important commodity in regard to building—is an indication of the progress that has been made in that direction. But, having regard to the fact that the Department of Industry and Commerce before they can issue licences will have to ascertain from the Local Government Department certain particulars which will ensure that the building materials will be based on the size of the house and the requirements of the house, it will be understood that there are reasons for delays that cannot be entirely overcome. With regard to by-roads or minor roads, I shall have something to say on those before the debate closes. The Deputy referred to a particular case in Leix-Offaly where flooding has resulted on a road because of an alteration in the old course of a river. I think he will agree with me that it is, in one form or another, a very old problem; but that does not suggest that its solution should be shelved, if the problem is capable of solution. It is suggested in the Department that this is a matter that may again be considered under the recent Sanitary Services Act and it has, therefore, been referred to the legal advisers of the Department for further consideration. Already we have had technical advice from an engineering inspector in the Department and it may be that ultimately the powers of the local authority will be so ineffective to deal with it that it may form part of a wider problem of drainage in that area. I can only say that whatever service the Department can give the local authority, within reason, towards a solution, will be given.
Deputy O'Rourke referred to the needs of the country places in the matter of housing. I realise there is still in the rural areas a considerable need in that direction. When I say that private persons, a very large number of whom reside in the rural areas, are expected to make a contribution towards the solution of the housing problem to the extent of 40,000 houses, I think the Deputy will realise that we are not losing and cannot lose sight of the rural areas in this connection. I feel sure that the rural areas will benefit very considerably by the operations of the Act and the easing of whatever regulations can be eased or liberally interpreted in connection with the working of that Act.
I have known for a very considerable time about this problem of cul-de-sac roads. I wish I could suggest an immediate solution. I promise to have that matter further examined with the object of seeing what can be done. I know it represents a difficulty and is a source of discontent in many parts of the country. I would like to see some remedy.
I am afraid I cannot adopt the advice given to me in the matter of housing, that we should hasten slowly. On the contrary, our idea is that we should accelerate our pace as much as possible. It is true that there are difficulties because of certain costs, but I am afraid we cannot afford to wait very much longer as all the circumstances point to this, that it is a problem that has grown enormously in the five or six years of the emergency, during which it was quite impossible to give it the amount of attention it deserved.
We had also from Deputy Fitzpatrick a contribution on housing. He spoke on lines somewhat similar to those suggested in a plan received in the Department some weeks ago with regard to the erection of temporary houses. That plan is being examined and certain inquiries are being made There would be no difficulty in approving generally the principle he outlined once the question as to whether we should proceed to erect temporary houses for an interim period was settled. Once that matter is settled some decision will be taken in reference to this, and I may say it will be taken in a short time.
The Deputy also made, in common with other Deputies, a plea for the white-collar workers. We have encouraged the local authorities and also the boroughs to acquire sites inside and outside their boundaries for the purpose of helping those people to make a contribution by housing themselves. We have encouraged the making of sites available at a fair price and giving them all the facilities that can be given to enable them to erect houses for themselves. That will show how earnest we are that private persons of that class should be enabled to make a contribution to their own housing. The grants available in the Department, plus sites at a reasonable cost, plus the operation of the Small Dwellings Act and the facilities afforded under that Act, should enable a very substantial contribution to be made.
I also hope that groups of workers in various forms of employment will come together for the purposes of forming utility societies and make a combined effort towards erecting their own houses. I promise that if any general evidence of a development of that kind is shown to me, I will do whatever I can to see that the local authorities give them the fullest possible facilities in acquiring sites and in erecting the houses they require.
I am not in a position to speak with any degree of knowledge on the question of ground rents for shops and houses, which was raised by Deputy Byrne. It is a matter on which I have very little knowledge and I have not had an opportunity within the past few days of studying the official information that is available. I will ask the officials of the Department to let the Deputy have information to whatever extent it is available in a short time.
Deputy Dr. Brennan had some criticisms to offer in connection with the constitution of the housing council. I should like to explain to him that my difficulty there was as regards the size of the council. My desire was that in order to do the work well and speedily the council should be a small one. I know there are very many worthy and useful persons whose names could be added, If it was possible to have a larger council. It is intended that this council should work, not over and above the Housing Committee of the Dublin Corporation, but rather along the same lines and that it should contain advantages that are not entirely available to the Housing Committee of the Dublin Corporation, which is a very large body and in regard to whose work I have nothing but what is good to say.
I think the members of local authorities will agree that there are very definite limitations in the working of a large body, and in this and other matters a small committee is preferable. I may say, for the Deputy's information, there will be an addition made to the membership of the housing council when the local elections are being held in County Dublin and it may be possible to reconcile in a satisfactory way the needs of County Dublin when that opportunity arises.
Deputy Collins, and I think Deputy Byrne also, advocated the appointment of a Minister for Housing. I do not think we have reached the stage yet when that matter can be fully considered. There could be a very much better case made for that some years ago than there can be made now, because then the Local Government Department dealt also with health and social welfare. The setting up of separate Ministries to deal with health and social welfare relieved the Local Government Department considerably. I do not know that that proposal could be fully justified at present and I do not think that we can offer any final opinion until we see what progress can be made under the existing position.
The Deputy mentioned the acquisition of sites in urban and other areas. I have already dealt with the point that sites should be made available to private persons at a fair price and so enable them to avoid the difficulty of trying to get sites—vainly in many cases—and in the end purchasing them at prohibitive prices. With regard to the statement that housing should be considered on lines altogether apart from mere budgetary considerations, I sympathise very much with that view. I am inclined to think that the final solution of the housing question in this country must depend on how far we can go in that direction. I am satisfied that we want to make very considerable progress in that direction and I think he will find that, so far as I am concerned, I shall not be unmindful of what I believe should be a very useful asset towards putting housing on a higher plane in this country in future than it occupied before.
The same remark applies to certain criticisms offered by Deputy Hickey in connection with the present financial requirements of houses. I am glad that he referred to the question of direct labour in Cork in the matter of housing, because there seems to be in certain quarters of this House an impression that direct labour was a system that had already been tried and found wanting. It is, of course, a system that requires good and active supervision. I believe that supervision can be secured in many cases in close association with the skilled operatives employed or through their trade unions. I am glad to say that in one borough in this country already we suggested to the local authority—and they very readily accepted the suggestion—to initiate a scheme for the provision of 74 houses through direct labour. In that particular case the local trades council offered to make their contribution to the success of the experiment by setting up a committee to consult with the engineer and to supervise output and the general control of the scheme.
I should say without being unduly optimistic in this matter that I have every hope that this experiment will justify itself. In fact, the report of the Dublin housing council, published some time ago, did not suggest, as was stated by some members of the House, that the experiment was a failure in Dublin. It, in fact, showed that certain costs in connection with direct labour were very considerably lower than they could be otherwise, but it did suggest that the experiment as a whole was somewhat dearer, and gave some reasons in mitigation of that view. It suggested that in future 25 per cent. of the work done by the local authorities should be carried out by direct labour. I look forward to the time when local bodies can proceed with well-defined plans for the provision of houses by direct labour, and I am quite satisfied that with the co-operation forthcoming in certain areas, direct labour and the contract system also, working side by side, testing and checking prices, results and values, will be able to do excellent work in that direction and will be able to give us an amount of information that will be very useful in the matter of arriving at final costs and furnishing suggestions as to how future schemes should be carried out.
There was also a reference to the question of construction of houses in urban areas. It is a fact that reconstruction grants are available in urban areas to ordinary persons now—small farmers or labourers. The term "labourer" is a wide one under the meaning of the Act. The Housing Act also affords facilities for the reconstruction of houses in urban areas owned by persons who let them for rent provided those houses are subject to examination by the local authority and that notice is served on the owners of such houses requiring them under the terms of the Act to reconstruct the houses and provided also that the local authority is in a position to give certain financial facilities to the owners of such houses for the purpose of that reconstruction. I hope that provision will be availed of to a considerable extent and that, in cases where it is not possible for the owners to avail of that provision, they may, in agreement with the local authority, dispose of their property and that, where these houses are suitable for reconditioning, the local authority will undertake that work.
There are quite a number of other matters that would require replies but it is not easy to deal with them in the course of a reply of this kind. In a general way, I may say to Deputies that the suggestions that have been made—and a number of them have been very useful—will be examined as fully as possible. I feel sure that a number of them can be utilised with advantage to the Department and to the work of local government generally in this country.
I want to say something in a general way about two or three matters that have occupied a very considerable portion of the time of the House in the discussion on the Estimates and on which speeches have been contributed by Deputies from all sides of the House. The first is in connection with the future of local government. In my judgment, local government in this country should, in future, in order to be successful, be local. It seems that the tendency in this country for a number of years has been in another direction altogether. I have always held the view that the Local Government Act, passed by a British Parliament a number of years ago, was perhaps the first and the most substantial instalment of Home Rule for this country. I regret very much that it seems to have been in the time since we got control of our affairs a sort of play-thing, to be changed and moved about in all directions from time to time. It seems to me a matter of great regret that there has been no stability in regard to local government policy in this country. I think the foundation of the success of that policy must be confidence in the people to manage their own affairs locally. It seems entirely inconsistent to suggest that we can manage our affairs in Parliament here and that our local representatives down the country cannot be trusted to manage their affairs.
I certainly have no patience with all these pious generalities that are talked about corruption all over the country. There has been no such thing as widespread corruption. I would say in this country, local administration as well as national administration has been on the whole, taking into account the general position of many other countries, up to a good standard. If here and there representatives stumbled and fell and were, perhaps, to some extent not quite honourable in their dealings with the people in local matters, that is no reason why the system generally should be condemned. Neither am I satisfied that the County Management Act has made for any great degree of efficiency in this country. Even if it did, I think you could have in the country that soulless kind of efficiency which is not of such advantage to the people as a whole. I know—and it is a remark I have made more than once in this House— no service in the State which requires to be administered on broader lines of human sympathy than the work of local government. The local authorities come in contact with the needs of the people every day of the week. They come in contact with the needs of people who are the most helpless in preparing their own cases and defending their own interests. Broad and comprehensive sympathy for that work is required and I know nobody who can do that better than the members of local bodies. I pin my faith, after long experience of local affairs and as a member of a comparatively small minority Party on a local body, to the integrity of our people in such matters. They must and can be trusted to manage their own affairs reasonably well, with advantage to local administration generally.
This debate has revealed a very remarkable change. I can remember that when the question of management arose in this House in legislative form the opponents were very few. The position has in fact been completely reversed now, because neither here nor in the Seanad recently were there many who thought it well to do any honour to this system, this much boosted system, of county management. It was regarded as a readymade recipe for resolving all local difficulties and ills. It has, in fact, proved to be nothing of the kind, and I know there has been a growing feeling of discontent with the system all over the country for a number of years. It can, in fact, be said that many of the local authorities and many intelligent people on the local authorities have been in revolt against the system for a very long time. It is quite well to tell them what powers they have. We know that certain powers are conferred on them if certain provisions of the Act are invoked, but the plain fact is that they regard themselves as the providers of money in the spending of which they have no say whatever. Therefore my policy will be to restore to the local bodies the greatest degree of control of their own affairs that can be devised by in the first place transferring certain powers from the managers to the local bodies, and, in the second place, taking whatever other action is necessary for the purpose of adding to and supplementing these powers.
I want to refer now to one or two other matters which were touched on only very lightly. One of these is the care and control of cemeteries. I should like to take this, the first, opportunity I have got in this House of asking for a new approach to this problem all over the country. I say definitely that the present position of most of the old cemeteries, and I have a fairly wide knowledge of this matter, is very discreditable to all of us. We have a great deal of reverence for our dead, and, amongst many people, we are conspicuous for our reverence for the dead, but unfortunately, for whatever reason, we give very little attention to their last resting places, and the present condition of some of our cemeteries is not one on which we can be complimented.
I feel that one of the advantages of combined engineering services would be to enable more thorough attention to be given to this matter by employees of local authorities in future. I wish to encourage the local authorities to make sure that their staffs, when not otherwise engaged, will be asked to concentrate on bringing the last resting places of the dead, and particularly the older graveyards which are not now in such general use, up to a good standard of decency and care. It is true that in many cases in recent years the tendency has been to have the cemetery in close proximity to the church, and, under the control of the clergy, an entirely different story is revealed. I suggest that this is a service with regard to which we could have a good deal of useful voluntary effort, and I ask good citizens generally to assist in the formation of committees in their various areas to give attention to this matter.
The old practice of paying a caretaker of a cemetery a few pounds and asking him not alone to open the gates when a funeral came along but also to be responsible for the general upkeep of the cemetery is completely useless, from the point of view of getting any reasonable standard of care, because the amount allowed in such cases was so small as to provide no reward whatever for that person's labour. The employees of the local authorities, under combined engineering arrangements, can make a contribution in this respect. It is also a matter in which many other sections of the people could make a very useful contribution, and I hope that the practice that prevails in certain ecclesiastical areas in the country of devoting a Sunday, or some few days in a particular week, to the general visitation and care of the cemetery in the area, will be universally adopted in the country. I hope that I may be able to record in 12 months' time a considerable improvement and advance in that direction.
With regard to roads, the fact is that the whole position has changed considerably in recent years. The roads are now carrying a degree and a weight of traffic which they were never originally constructed for. It is a very peculiar position that we should at present have railways rapidly going derelict from the point of view of traffic and incurring very heavy financial liabilities, while a large and increasing amount of the traffic has been steadily diverted to the roads and, strangely enough, to a large extent, by the people responsible for running the railways. I feel that this is certain in the end to involve a very heavy burden on local bodies, a burden which, in my opinion, it would be scarcely fair to impose on them. The remedy is not easy to find, but it must be found, and I have certain very strong views as to how that remedy will ultimately be found. I am satisfied that limitations must be found in order to make as sure as we can that as much traffic as possible is diverted to the railways and that the roads are retained at a reasonable standard of construction and improvement, consistent with the financial position of local bodies and their capacity to bear that burden.
As to the future I found when I came into the Department plans for the survey of a certain mileage of main road—widened, double carriage roads— the results of which might be available in 50 or 60 years, or perhaps sooner. I doubt it——
