Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Jul 1948

Vol. 112 No. 2

Sittings of the Dáil.

The Taoiseach

I move:—

That notwithstanding anything to the contrary in Standing Orders and in the Resolution of the Dáil of 4th May, 1948, the following provisions shall apply in respect of sittings of the Dáil until the adjournment for the Summer Recess:—

(a) The Dáil shall meet at 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday, Wednesdays, Thursdays and Fridays and shall adjourn not later than 12 midnight on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays and not later than 5 p.m. on Fridays;

(b) consideration of Government business shall not be interrupted on Wednesdays and Fridays at the time fixed for taking business of private members; and

(c) Questions to Ministers on the Order Paper on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays shall be taken at 3 p.m., at which time the business under consideration shall be interrupted.

As Deputies are aware, a Vote on Account was granted by the Dáil on 11th March and unless these Estimates are passed, and the Appropriation Bill is passed into law by the end of this month, there will be no moneys to carry on the public services.

The position in reference to the Estimates is that we have so far debated 29 Votes and on these Votes we have spent 121 hours up to yesterday afternoon. Something like ten hours have since been spent on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture. There are 44 Votes still to be debated and passed.

That is a situation which calls for some action on the part of the Government in the interest of the public. The plan that is embodied in this motion is an effort to reconcile our desire to give the fullest possible discussion to all Deputies on all sides of the House for the remaining Estimates and at the same time to recognise that we owe a duty to the public to finish these Estimates in time to enable the financial business to be concluded. The plan embodied in this motion will give, as from yesterday, at least 80 additional hours for discussion. We feel that that proposal is a reasonable one and ensures every Deputy, no matter whether he belongs to a Party or is Independent, adequate opportunities for discussion, provided there is co-operation and good will on all sides of the House.

With that additional allowance of time on the plan proposed—80 hours at least, probably more—we shall have at the end of that time given to this Dáil the greatest amount of time given to the Estimates in the last 20 years, so that nobody can contend that this Government is in any way endeavouring to curtail discussion on the Estimates. The highest number of hours granted to Deputies in previous years, since the year 1928, was granted last year when the discussion on the Estimates occupied 166 hours. The proposal now will give 201 hours at least, probably more. These figures demonstrate what I have already emphasised, that there will be ample power, with good will on all sides, for a full and free discussion of the remaining Estimates.

At the rate at which we have been going up to this, unless some plan such as is now suggested is put into operation, there would be no possibility of ending the Estimates before the end of the autumn. There are eight groups of Estimates, each one of which is important in itself—Agriculture, which is in progress, Fisheries, Industry and Commerce, External Affairs, Posts and Telegraphs, Social Welfare, Finance and that for my own Department. As I have said, we propose in this plan to give 201 hours at least and probably more. In the year 1935, on the 11th July at a time when less than 100 hours had been given, a guillotine motion was moved by the last Government and 102 hours only were given to the Estimates for that year. A very drastic guillotine was moved on the 11th July, 1935.

I think I have said sufficient to demonstrate to the House our desire to allow the fullest discussion, not to curtail any Deputy's rights and at the same time to safeguard the public interest, and to see that public financial business is brought to a timely conclusion, I ask for support for this motion and I would also ask for co-operation from all sides of the House to see that the financial business of the country is finished by next Friday week. This plan by which it is proposed to add 80 hours, is based upon a time-table starting from yesterday and envisages the conclusion of the remaining Estimates on next Friday week at 5 o'clock. I think we are entitled to co-operation from all sections of the House and that the country expects that we shall get it.

Mr. G. Boland

I should like to refer first of all to the reference which the Taoiseach has made to the guillotine motion introduced in 1935. The Taoiseach has not told us how much of the time was taken up on that occasion by Deputies who are now members of the Government Party. He will find, if he looks up the debates on that occasion, that it was the Opposition Party that was taking up practically all the time of the House. The practice, about which he is complaining, was always adopted during the time we were in opposition and by the Cumann na nGaedheal opposition during our term of office. We had to introduce a guillotine motion as the Opposition had taken up so much time of the House. We have no objection to extended sittings but I think it is only fair to recognise that the Opposition has a constitutional right and duty to put its case so that the public will have an opportunity of seeing all sides of the question. That duty does not fall so much on the Government Benches. It will be noted that, since the new Dáil was set up, at least equal time has been taken by Deputies on the Government side. It may be that since the debate on the Estimate for Agriculture started the balance may have been on our side but prior to that it will be found that there was almost speaker for speaker. Therefore if there is going to be any blame attached to members of the Dáil for delaying time I think it must rest equally on the shoulders of every Party in the House.

We do not want unduly to delay the proceedings or to hold up the financial business but we do think that the proposals put forward by the Taoiseach are a bit unnecessary and are going a bit too far. We had an opportunity of consulting the country members of our Party and I think the views which they expressed would probably be endorsed by the country Deputies in all Parties. They say that to start at 10.30 on Tuesdays is rather expecting too much and that if we were to start at 3 o'clock on Tuesday and to go on until midnight it would be more acceptable. We are prepared then to agree to sit at 3 o'clock on Tuesday until 12 midnight and then at 10.30 a.m. both on Wednesday and Thursday until midnight. The country Deputies also think it is unreasonable to ask them to remain here until 5 o'clock on Friday. Some of them have to travel long distances and they think that a sitting of from 10.30 to 2 would be ample. In that connection, having consulted the members of our Party I think the Government need not be unduly alarmed and that they will be able to get the financial business by Friday week.

Mr. Costello

It has to go to the Seanad.

Mr. Boland

I think it would be possible by our arrangements to get all the financial business by that date. You will get all the Estimates through by Friday week if our proposal is accepted. I therefore would ask the Taoiseach to amend that proposal to meet us, as the time we propose should be ample to finish this business. We did get in touch with the Whip's office, but there was a ring again to say that Deputies would have to await the motion. Our proposal would add 56½ hours from to-morrow morning. Of course, the other Parties will also have to curtail their speeches and to stand in under this arrangement and not to expect us to do all the standing down.

I know that where you have such a conglomeration of Parties in a Government it is hard to come to an arrangement, but the different Whips should try to control their Deputies. We do not want to delay the business at all and until the Estimate for Agriculture was reached, the order was almost speaker for speaker from each side. If the Taoiseach will accept the suggestion that I have made I think it will be generally acceptable.

Captain Cowan

May I make one suggestion? To-day we met at 10.30 and we are going to sit until 12 midnight. I think it is only fair in these circumstances that there should be a reasonable adjournment for meals, that there should be an adjournment from 1 to 2 o'clock for lunch and three-quarters of an hour in the evening for tea so that Deputies like myself who are trying to keep the House going will get a chance of getting out to have something to eat. I think that is a reasonable proposition.

Mr. Costello

I have great sympathy with Deputy Cowan's point of view but at the same time I think it has been contrary to the practice of the House. When we have so little time available, to take one and three-quarter hours off for meals would represent a serious inroad on the amount of time left. As regards Deputy Boland's suggestion, the only purpose I have is to get the business done. It is not my desire to bring Deputies up at an unreasonable time on Tuesdays but I think I am entitled to say that we exhausted every method of getting accommodation before we brought forward this motion. This proposal is substantially the same as that put to the Party opposite by my Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Cosgrave, and I told him that I was prepared to recommend it to the various Parties in the Government provided that there was agreement that the business would finish on Friday week. I got no such agreement. I waited until I came into the House, when I asked my Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Cosgrave, if he had heard from the Opposition, and he said "No." The only purpose of this motion, or any other motion, is to get the business done. I will accept any agreement which meets the wishes of the House to achieve that purpose and it is no use for Deputy Boland to say: "We wish", "We hope", and "We believe" that the business will be done. We want some undertaking or guarantee that it will be done on Friday week. There will be only one Tuesday on which Deputies will have to come up at 10.30 in the morning. If I can get agreement from the Opposition that, within the hours suggested by them in the amendment to the hour suggested in the motion, the business will be finished——

Mr. Lemass

The Estimates will be finished.

The Taoiseach

I am dealing only with Estimates and, of course, all stages of the Appropriation Bill. That must be clearly understood. Has Deputy Lemass any point to make about that, because if he has, let him say so? I do not want to have any misunderstanding.

Mr. Lemass

The Appropriation Bill could be taken the following week.

The Taoiseach

It could not. I am glad to know now where we stand. This motion is intended to enable all financial business, including all stages of the Appropriation Bill, to be concluded by Friday week. The Seanad must get some consideration, and, apart from that, the Bill must be through by the end of the month or the beginning of August. Unless we can get some agreement of a firm character on that basis, I would ask the House to pass the motion as I have moved it.

Mr. Boland

The Taoiseach has not exhausted every method, because there is the obvious method that other Governments adopt, of getting their own members to speak less. That has not been done by this Government.

The Taoiseach

I should like to add one comment on that. I want in a very emphatic way to protest against the principle which Deputy Boland is endeavouring to introduce that the Opposition have some sort of constitutional right to talk on Estimates and otherwise over and above that which Deputies who support the Government have. I repudiate that notion. Every member has the same rights as every other member. I do not want the Deputies supporting the Government to be a mere collection of people who will come in here and vote. They are entitled to talk and I wish them to talk. The Government wants them to take their due part in the discussions of this House.

Mr. Boland

Put the blame where it belongs.

Mr. de Valera

We will have to get our time to talk, too.

Mr. Dillon

During the debate on my Estimate there has been only one speech which was, I think, unduly long. Apart from that, the speeches from both sides have been of reasonable length and the interventions have been rational. There has been one obviously obstructive speech, but, apart from that, nobody on this side, or indeed on the opposite side, after Deputy Smith had spoken, spoke unduly long.

Mr. Boland

If the Government wants to get its business done they have the remedy.

The Taoiseach

Every Deputy is entitled to speak.

Mr. de Valera

Why have we got to shorten the time? There is another way in which the Government can do it—by bringing in a Vote on Account.

The Taoiseach

We will certainly do nothing of the sort.

Mr. de Valera

Very well; we have our rights and we intend to stand on them.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Morrissey)

Do not forget that these are your own Estimates, prepared by yourselves.

Mr. de Valera

We intend to stand on our rights.

Mr. Hickey

If Deputies would shorten their speeches the work would be done.

Mr. A. Byrne

Why not introduce a ten-minutes' rule, under which long-winded members would have to sit down at the end of ten minutes?

Mr. Boland

If the Taoiseach is satisfied, we are prepared to agree that the Estimates and the Appropriation Bill be concluded by Friday week.

The Taoiseach

That is all I am looking for—all stages of the Appropriation Bill and the remaining Estimates by Friday week.

Mr. Boland

I tried to get in touch with the Parliamentary Secretary but he was not in his office at about ten minutes to three.

Mr. Lemass

So far as any undertaking is given, it is an undertaking that the Deputies on this side will co-operate in getting the business finished by Friday week.

The Taoiseach

Apparently now there is again some sort of cutting down of these undertakings.

Mr. Lemass

I want to be quite clear. If there is any undertaking given, it is binding on everybody, and Deputies opposite are also going to co-operate in getting the business finished.

Minister for Justice (General MacEoin)

Agreed.

Motion, as amended as follows, put and agreed to:

That notwithstanding anything to the contrary in Standing Orders and in the Resolution of the Dáil of 4th May, 1948, the following provisions shall apply in respect of sittings of the Dáil until the adjournment for the Summer Recess:—

(a) The Dáil shall meet at 10.30 a.m. on Wednesdays and Thursdays and shall adjourn not later than 12 midnight on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays;

(b) consideration of Government business shall not be interrupted on Wednesdays and Fridays at the time fixed for taking business of private members; and

(c) questions to Ministers on the Order Paper on Wednesdays and Thursdays shall be taken at 3 p.m., at which time the business under consideration shall be interrupted.