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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Jul 1948

Vol. 112 No. 10

Social Welfare Bill, 1948—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I wish to be as brief as possible in concluding my statement on this Bill. I see in the Bill that in the weekly rates of widows' contributory pensions a distinction is made which, to my mind, is unfair and unjust and I would like to know the reason for it. A widow resident in an urban area, where the person in respect of whose insurance the pension is payable was not an agricultural labourer, gets 15/-a week. A woman who is the widow of an agricultural labourer gets only 12/6 a week. That is a very invidious distinction as between the widow of a man who has provided food for the country and the widow of a town worker or a man engaged in business other than farming.

The self-same thing applies with regard to a widow resident in a rural area. If she is not the widow of an agricultural labourer she gets 16/-a week, but if she is the widow of an agricultural labourer she gets only 12/6. The same thing is carried on in respect of the children. That is an unjust distinction in a Dáil where Deputies are mainly representative of rural communities. It is something that should be got rid of. I had hopes that the Minister for Defence would have carried out his election promises, that the means test would be abolished. I expected that when Fine Gael was on the stool of repentance they would at least have undone the mischief they made in the 1924 Act.

And which you left undone.

Before 1924 the man with 10/- a week would be entitled, on reaching 70, to the full old age pension without any cutting or starving. Since then, unfortunately, he has been cut and starved. The value of 10/- a week in 1924 was far different from the value of 10/- a week in 1948.

Or 1941, if the Deputy wants a present of it. We have here installed a means test according to which a man in receipt of anything over £15 12s. 6d. a year will have his old age pension cut. That is most unjust and the Minister should mend his hand in that respect on the Committee Stage and bring the figure to some fairer basis. I do not think that 17/6 added to the 10/-, making 27/6 for an old age pensioner, supposing he had the 10/- a week, would do much more than keep the life in him in present conditions. I regret sincerely what has been exposed by this measure—a financial depreciation in this country within the past five months. When I make a comparison between what the present Government considered we were able to do financially six months ago and what they find themselves able to do financially to-day, I am afraid that they are working very badly.

The Deputy knows the answer to all that.

If that depreciation continues, it is very doubtful if the old age pensioners will be able to get anything. I should like, in conclusion, to compliment the Minister on having gone as far as he has gone and in doing it so rapidly. I regret that he found it necessary for the purpose of this Bill to extract something like £1,000,000 out of the extra stamps charged to the ordinary worker in this country and his employer. We had a right to try some means of finding the cash other than that. I am sure that if we tried to find the money for these grandiose schemes and the proposals envisaged here by such means there would be a lot of bitter talk against it here. However, the Minister, as I have said, has gone part of the way and I should like to thank him sincerely on behalf of the members of a board of which I happen to be chairman in Cork. He has relieved us and introduced a measure of justice for the people there that was long merited and long delayed. I had, as I said before, to find ways and means of getting over that difficult position from 1941 to 1948. I am glad and thankful that the Minister has met us and that when he came along to abolish the food vouchers, he at least had the decency to come in here with Part V of the Bill, which is the property, the brainwork and the genius of the South Cork Board of Assistance. Any year that I can knock off a sum of £1,300 off the rates for my constituents, I consider that I have done at least part of my duty.

In conclusion, I wish the Minister every luck with the Bill. I shall probably be here next week to propose certain amendments to it and to endeavour to abolish some things in it that in my opinion should not be there, particularly this ugly feature which I would ask him to amend himself, and so abolish the last blot of the old Fine Gael régime.

I intend to be very brief in any remarks I have to make in regard to this measure. I should first of all like to direct the attention of the Minister to certain very invidious features that have always been associated with the assessment of means in any old age pension scheme that came before this. Take for instance the case of a road worker who is earning so much per week and who when he attains the age of 70 applies for a pension. His wages are then assessed for 12 months back. In future I think that that practice should be abolished and that the pension should be given irrespective of the road worker's earnings which at the moment in Cork are £2 16s. a week. He should be given the pension irrespective of what he earned for 12 months back. There are various other matters that should be taken into consideration in regard to the cost of living. There are various factors in operation at the moment which were not in existence at the time when Lloyd George first introduced the Old Age Pensions Act and the means test, as it was operated at that time, bore no comparison to the means test as it is at the moment.

I suppose we shall all agree that the Old Age Pensions Act was either a piece of Ministerial psychology or Government expediency at the time Lloyd George introduced it but, irrespective of that fact, it can be said that every Old Age Pension Act since brought forward was no improvement on the original Act. As a matter of fact every step taken was more or less a retrograde step. I am asking our present Minister if there is going to be any policy of reviewing awards, that it should be operated more on the side of the applicant than on the side of the Treasury.

So far as differentiation between rural and urban populations is concerned, I cannot understand why it should be made. As a Deputy representing a rural area I believe that the people in rural Ireland are just as entitled to any concessions that are going as the people in urban Ireland but still I have to face matters here from a realistic point of view and I know that there is such a thing as the cost of living. Deputy Corry has left the House but it is a pity he did not realise when he was speaking that there are such things as perquisites in rural Ireland that do not exist in urban Ireland. However, I should like the Minister to give the consideration to rural Ireland that it deserves. Deputy Corry was very solicitous with regard to certain people but he was not so solicitous at the South Cork Board of Assistance last Monday with regard to these people when his colleague, Deputy McGrath, proposed an increase of wages.

That is outside the scope of this Bill.

If I am out of order, I apologise.

What Deputy Corry did at the South Cork Board of Assistance is not relevant to this Bill.

I heard him say that he was responsible, by virtue of certain action which he took at the South Cork Board of Assistance, for reducing the rates by £1,300. I do not want the rates of Cork to be reduced if that is to be done at the expense of the working men and women of Cork. We can reduce the rates of Cork on a basis by which the people who are most deserving of our consideration will not suffer. I guarantee that Deputy Corry will get every assistance on that basis, but I am not going to state here to-day that I reduced the rates of North Cork by £1,300 as a result of certain action that was taken by the Minister for Social Welfare two months ago when he cut us away from the vouchers and the soup tickets. I hope that never again will they be reintroduced into this country, that if we are going to assist anybody here we shall assist them in cash, and that they will not be obliged to go to the soup kitchens or the bread queues of any local assistance authority. I conclude by saying that I hope the Minister will take into consideration the assessment of earnings and that he will not peg back people for a period of three months just because they earned £2 16s. or £3 a year before.

I hope also, if the Minister can see his way, he will in the near future take into consideration people who are not receiving an income from the Treasury of this country, but who, by virtue of services rendered in other lands for a foreign country, receive pensions and that he will be more than generous with those people. A soldier is a soldier irrespective of what land he fights for. Those people fought in the British Army or Navy and as a result of their activities they are getting a pension. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that they are not being paid from the Irish Treasury but from the British Treasury and I hope that these men will not be penalised because they are drawing them.

I am not going to compliment the Minister for the measure he has introduced. It would be painting the lily white if I did. Everybody knew from the moment he was appointed that he would get a social security measure— I do not want to call it "social services" or "social welfare", "social security" I think is the word—in this country that would be a credit both to the Minister and to the Party and Government he represents. Sometimes in the very near future perhaps, we, who are not exactly satisfied with the full contents of the present measure, will devote ourselves, apply ourselves and avail of every possible opportunity to get more for the old age pensioners, widows and orphans, blind persons and the people in general who rely on the social security that is being initiated at this moment by Deputy William Norton, Minister for Social Welfare in this House. I am sure we we will be able to draw to his attention and emphasise the necessity of his next Bill being a far better one than the present.

The Department of Social Welfare is naturally a very important one and the Minister holds a very important position as head of that Department in the life of this country and the welfare of the people as a whole, because to him is laid out the task of providing for the section of the community who are not fit or able to provide for themselves. For that reason when the present Minister for Social Welfare took office, we on this side of the House, the members of the Government, naturally expected that a good measure would be introduced before this House making provision for those people. The Minister has given to this Dáil a Bill, and in fairness to it, it is at the present time as good and makes as good a provivision for these people I have mentioned as this country can possibly afford. It is not first class; it is not by any means the greatest social welfare Bill that could be brought into the House, but when we take into consideration and examine the financial position of our country we may realise that the country cannot possibly pay those people who are in need the same benefits that can be paid by neighbouring countries that are much more wealthy and have better financial resources at their disposal than we have. I want, therefore, to compliment the Minister for Social Welfare in the way he has set out in his effort to bring a certain amount of justice and fair play to the few sections of our community who have been forgotten in this Parliament and by previous Governments over a long number of years.

The most welcome part of this Bill is the Minister's statement that £2,500,000 extra will be given in pensions to pensioners of different types, £1,500,000 to old age pensioners and £1,000,000 to widows and orphans. The old age pensioners are the most deserving section of the community, old men or old women, as the case may be, who have given a life of toil, a life of hard work, a life of struggle and, many of them, a life in which they have denied themselves the comforts they were or should be entitled to in their efforts to make a livelihood for themselves and their families and who find themselves in their old age in as poor a financial position as when they started in life. The State should come to their assistance, to give them that measure of security which should provide comforts for them in the holiday of their life, if you like to put it that way. Very little effort has been made by anybody, by any Government irrespective of Party, until the present Minister for Social Welfare and the present Government took it on themselves to decide that those people should get the fair play and recognition they deserve. As we all know, as everybody in political life knows, the best political plank any platform can have is to say something about the old age pensioners. The spokesman of any political Party who will stand outside any chapel gate or at any political meeting and tell the community in general that he advocates great increases for the old age pensioners will get their ear and plenty of support. Unfortunately for the old age pensioners and for the Irish people as well, the old age pensions game has been very much played in past years, while no real effort has ever been made to provide a standard of security until the present time. We have promises of course and always will have promises in an effort to catch votes.

As I have said, it is a very useful thing, a very useful system of propaganda, but when the first test came of providing the money and showing the sincerity of the wish to give the people what they are entitled to, we have found out that all Parties failed up to now. I think, therefore, that in this Bill the present Minister for Social Welfare and the present Government have, if not fulfilled their promises or all the things they would have liked to fulfil, definitely advanced a considerable step in the right direction and made great headway and progress as they should make and were entitled to make.

There are one or two matters which prevent this Bill from being the perfect measure that we would like it to be. Personally, I would be very pleased if the means test were modified even more or, if possible, abolished altogether. If we abolished the means test, we could turn the amount of money which goes into administration of the means test over to the payment of extra allowances to old age pensioners and widows and orphans and in that way we would be doing something better. When we take into consideration, however, that, if that happened, men as rich as Croesus or as poor as a church mouse would be equally entitled to receive a pension, we must consider that the means test is a certain check on extravagance which would occur if it were not imposed. If we had such a sense of honour in the Irish people that a man or woman who was wealthy enough in old age to live would not make any demand on the State for assistance, we could do without the means test.

It is unfortunate, but I suppose it is the same all over the world, that the eyes of the people are directed, not entirely, but very much towards the Governments of their countries to provide for them and will immediately snap up even a trivial amount of money which will fall from the hands of the Government. Even though people may have ample wealth to keep themselves in a state of comfort and happiness in old age. I still believe that, if the means test were abolished altogether, even the wealthiest section of the community would be drawing their pensions even quicker than some of the poorer sections of the people. Therefore, I see a certain amount of good in maintaining the means test. I will, however, be candid and honest about my own personal opinion of it and it is that I should like to see it abolished at the earliest possible moment, because I still believe that we have enough of honour left in this country to prevent those who do not need old age pensions applying for them.

In introducing the Bill the Minister said that he is hopeful it will be possible to do away with the means test in time to come. For that reason, I hope that at a later date he will live up to the promise he has given and, if the country prospers sufficiently to allow of the means test being abolished, that he will in the near future or in the not too distant future introduce a measure to abolish it. In doing that, I am sure he will have the support of every Deputy.

There are a few objections which I see to the means test as provided for in this Bill. It is all very well to raise it at the top from £39 5s. to £52 5s., but the £15 12s. 6d. remains at the bottom. I should like if the Minister could possibly increase that at least to £25. In that way he would be taking a definite step which would give satisfaction and meet with the approval of every Deputy and he would gain for himself the everlasting gratitude of those old people who are cut out from receiving the old age pension because this £15 12s. 6d. still stands against them. However, taking the Minister at his word and relying on him, I shall leave the matter entirely in his hands in the hope that in the near future he will see his way to amend the means test further so far as the bottom scale is concerned, so that those people who are cut out from receiving pensions will benefit by the alteration.

There is, of course, a limited amount of money available in this country. We have heard from the opposition of the promises and assurances that were given on election platforms as to what each section would do if they obtained the reins of Government. We have heard of promises of old age pensions of 32/6 by one Party and of 25/- by another Party. Fortunately, our little Party have come unscathed out of that conflict, because we were sensible not to promise anything to anybody except that we would help any Party or group of Parties to do the best they possibly could for the Irish people.

Everybody here would be glad if we could pay 25/- a week to every old age pensioner. The demand which that would make on the Exchequer, however, would create a certain amount of doubt in the minds of the people as to whether the country could afford to pay such a high rate of pension. When we look at it in that way and at what the pensioners were getting formerly, all I can say is that the Minister has struck a fair balance between the two and, with a few exceptions, has produced a very good Bill, which will no doubt create great satisfaction and contentment all over the country.

The fact that 90 per cent. of the recipients of old age pensions are in receipt of the full pension is something that I did not know until I heard it from the Minister yesterday. As a Deputy who has had to make so many demands on the Department of Social Welfare to increase pensions for my constituents, I personally was of the opinion that not more than 50 per cent. of the recipients were in receipts of the full pension. I am glad to know that 90 per cent. of them are in receipt of the full pension. I do not think it would be wrong if the means test were modified a little bit so that at least 95 or 98 per cent. of the recipients would be eligible for the full pension when this Bill comes into force.

The only thing I do not like is that this Bill cannot be put into operation at an early date. The announcement by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement that pensions would be increased caused old age pensioners to look forward eagerly to that increase. We find, however, that we will be into 1949 before any financial assistance will be given to these old age pensioners. I presume that is not the fault of the Minister for Social Welfare or the Minister for Finance. Although some people would rather see this Bill in operation in a month or six weeks, those who have waited 20 or 25 years for a little extra allowance of money will be glad to know that a date has been fixed on which they will receive their increased old age pension. Although there may be a considerable number of grousers, nevertheless I believe that when the facts are brought home to the people everybody will be satisfied to wait for the time when they are to receive the benefits to which they are definitely entitled and which they should have received ten or 12 years ago when the cost of living started to increase and commodities which they had to purchase began to get dear for them.

Another welcome section of this Bill is that which does away with food vouchers and the supplementary allowances which necessitated the old age pensioner calling like a pauper to the assistance officers every week to receive his 1/-, 2/- or 2/6 as the case may be. The right way to carry out a pensions scheme is to put on the pension book the amount granted rather than have the old age pensioners wasting time by one day drawing the old age pension at the Post Office, another day going to the assistance officer for the allowance that the assistance officer will give him, and yet a third day going to some other officer for the food voucher or the slip of paper which will entitle him to a certain amount of food. This system of payment on the pension book will meet with much approval from every old age pensioner and every official who serves the old age pensioner because it will simplify the job for him and everybody will be happier.

The investigation officer has been much criticised and he definitely should be much criticised because of the methods he employed in seeking information about the private affairs of individuals when assessing the means test. He had, however, his duty to do. If out of his hands was taken the very nasty job of probing into the way the people get their money—or the amount of their savings or the small amount of money or goods they have which could be regarded as income—and a scheme devised which would cut out the necessity for such probing into the private affairs of old people, it would be a matter of satisfaction to them.

The function of the Minister for Social Services is, as I said at the outset, to provide help for the six sections of the community who are not able to help themselves. I refer to those who are unemployed through no fault of their own; those who are aged, those who are widows; those who are orphans; those who are blind and those who are disabled. In providing for these six sections of the community the State is doing a duty to its citizens and to the people who should be looked after. None of those six sections of the community would turn to the State for aid if they were able or fit to provide for themselves.

On the other hand, take the case of the industrious man or woman who has reached 70 years of age and who never made a demand for a single penny on State finances or State help. Through their industry and thrift they have amassed for themselves a little fortune to keep them comfortable in their old age. Those people were penalised. It was, in fact, a penalty to be thrifty. The individual who never got down to hard work and who simply lounged around without making any provision for the rainy day, on reaching the age of 70, becomes fully entitled to the maximum amount of the old age pension. The citizen who worked hard has to go through a rigorous examination by the investigation officer and, in many instances, is granted only a miserable 1/- or 2/- or 5/-, as the case may be. This measure is an effort to right that position. If it is not fully comprehensive in bringing about an end to this wrong, which I maintain there is, it is in its own little way, an effort towards bringing those who are thrifty and industrious nearer to getting the old age pension which they fully deserve and to which they are entitled.

The fact that orphans', as well as widows', contributory and non-contributory pensions will be increased is also very welcome. Widows, unfortunately, find themselves in very poor financial circumstances after the loss of their husbands and they, as well as everybody else, are entitled to whatever help they will get under this Bill. Let me say that the amount of money given to the old age pensioners is by far the most satisfactory item in this Bill and it will be received with approval by the people as a whole.

I was surprised at the speech which was made by Deputy Lemass yesterday, in which he told us that nobody in this House is against social services and that nobody in this House ever wanted to see old age pensioners or unemployed or anybody else not getting what they were entitled to. In the short time during which I have been a member of this House, one measure at least in this connection was introduced by members of the Fine Gael Party while in opposition and it was supported by every other Party which was then in opposition. It was a motion to the effect that any earnings in cash or in kind which an old age pensioner earned after 70 years of age should not count against him and that any moneys got from his family should not count against him for means test purposes. That motion was defeated by the overwhelming majority vote of the Party, who now cry out and say that the old age pensioners should have got this long ago. Deputy Lemass also told us that Fianna Fáil was planning to introduce an even better Bill into this House. They had 15 long years in which to plan and to plot and to lay it out.

In fairness to all sections of the community who pay taxes, let me say that the Irish people were scourged with taxation which was sufficient to provided more money for the old age pensioners than the old age pensioners were getting. We now find that Fianna Fáil intended to introduce a better Bill than that which the present Minister for Social Welfare has introduced. It was for them, and maybe for the old age pensioners a fateful thing that the events of the 4th of last February turned out as they did, and even more so that the events of the 18th of last February turned out as they did. If this famous Bill had been introduced—if they had got back into power—surely the old age pensioners would rub their eyes in wonder. I daresay that all they would have got under it would be what they had not over the past 16 years, namely, very little help or consideration from the Government or the Party that has just gone out of office. Deputy Seán Lemass has told us that the imposition of taxation is an unpopular move in any Government. That is quite true. The imposition of taxation which inevitably makes it harder for the taxpayer to live is something which will never have the approval of the people as a whole. Yet, in my short political career, I have never met any taxpayer who objected to taxation if that taxation were for the purpose of providing better benefits for the old, the widows and the orphans, the unemployed, the blind and the disabled. Of course, the people would complain if taxation were levied for grandiose schemes, such as the purchase of Constellation aircraft or the erection of a short-wave station. Those were the schemes upon which the previous Government was embarked. Under their régime the old, the sick, the blind, the widows and the orphans waited a long time for a square deal. One would have thought last October when the Supplementary Budget was introduced, with its increases on beer, tobacco and cinemas, that the Government then would have evolved some scheme of increasing old age pensions, blind pensions, unemployment assistance and so on. These unfortunate people waited and hoped.

I am surprised that Deputy Lemass should have the temerity now to tell this House that Fianna Fáil, if it had returned to power, would have inaugurated some scheme which would have brought increased benefits to these people. If Fianna Fáil had gone back as a Government in February we would have found ourselves now faced with another election and, in their bid for popularity in that election, they probably would have introduced a Bill giving increases to old age pensioners and others. That would have been a popular measure in connection with any election. That would have been a popular political move on their part and it would possibly have received overwhelming acclamation from all sections of the community. But the day of Fianna Fáil is past and gone.

The Minister for Social Welfare has taken a big step forward in providing these pension increases. We do not all agree that the present increases are sufficient, but they are a step towards something better when the opportunity arises and when the financial resources of the State are such that it will be within our compass to do much more for these sections of our community. The comment was made on this Bill that the Minister, in introducing it, had sounded the last post over the grave of Fianna Fáil. I thoroughly agree with that. As well as granting the increases to the old age pensioners and others this Bill brings about the abolition of the system of food vouchers and in that way it saves the ratepayers a certain amount of money. I think it would be a good thing if the Minister could grant blind pensions at an even earlier age. Blindness is the worst affliction of all the ills to which humanity is subject.

If I am to get any publicity in the Press, I trust that the Irish Press will not misrepresent me on this occasion as it misrepresented me when the Budget was passing through this House. That particular Party organ has an unhappy little knack of taking out of its context statements made by Deputies on the Government Benches and thereby misrepresenting the Deputies' views.

I cannot see the relevancy of this.

It may be a bit irrelevant. I merely wanted to make a passing remark on what had happened before in order that it may not happen again. It is immaterial to me whether it does or does not happen, but it is rather nasty to see people misrepresented in the public Press.

I want to congratulate the Minister on this measure and, in congratulating him, I would offer a word of congratulation, too, to the Minister for Finance without whose help and sanction it would be impossible to raise the money for increases in pensions. It has been said that the Minister for Social Welfare is entwined in the octopus of Fine Gael. The Minister has shown that he is a force to be reckoned with. He has shown that the Minister for Finance is behind him in his schemes for increasing pensions. It would be very little use for the Minister to try to provide increases if he did not have the sanction and authority of the Minister for Finance.

This measure demonstrates forcibly once again the strong links which bind together the members of the inter-Party Government. They are all agreed to give justice where justice is due by providing proper pensions for the old, the sick, the unemployed, the blind, the disabled and the widows and the orphans. This Government has set a headline for which the people have long waited. I am sure that the Minister for Social Welfare will always have the overwhelming support of every Party forming this inter-Party Government. This Government is giving to the Irish people that square deal to which they are entitled.

I hope that Deputy Commons, with that modesty that characterises him, will blush when he reads his speech, fully reported, in tomorrow's paper, because I gather from what he said that we are here paying the last tribute at the political grave of the Minister for Social Welfare.

No such thing. I did not think the Deputy was hard of hearing.

It is a sad occasion for Deputy Commons and those associated with him, but we on this side of the House cannot but yield some meed of admiration to the Deputy, who is struggling so gallantly in the tentacles of the Fine Gael policy. Indeed, the Deputy's speech was a very revealing one. It almost carried with it a note of penitence, certainly a note of regret——

That I ever supported Fianna Fáil, yes.

——when he referred to the fateful day of February 4th. The Deputy has a good memory. It is a memory, however, that may sometimes land him in an awkward situation, because he reminded the House that last year the Fine Gael octopus, in whose tentacles he and his colleagues now find themselves, put down a motion asking the House to resolve that in calculating means no account should be taken of earnings. That motion, as Deputy Commons has reminded us, was supported by Clann na Talmhan, the members of the Labour Party, and Independent members who are now on the Government side of the House. Deputy Commons has told us that the motion was defeated by those who supported the Government of the day and he gave us as an explanation for the attitude then taken up that we had not the money to spend because we were spending it on Constellations, luxury hotels, short-wave broadcasting stations and other grandiose schemes. There is no expenditure now on Constellations; the short-wave station has been put in abeyance; luxury hotels still seem to be thriving, owned in many instances by prominent supporters of the Government—but we still have them.

It is here proposed to re-enact anew a definition of earnings. Earnings are to be taken into consideration for the purpose of calculating means. Earnings under this Bill introduced by the Minister for Social Welfare are defined as "including wages, profits from any form of self-employment in a trade or business, including farming, unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance." I hope Deputy Commons has read that. It is rather sardonic to define unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance as earnings. I suppose, however, that is due to the fact that under the Minister for Social Welfare, who was a great advocate of policies of full employment last year, the unemployment figures for our people have gone up. How is it, if the Fine Gael Party were sincere, when they put down this motion to provide that in calculating means no account should be taken of earnings, that this definition appears? How is it that the Minister for Social Welfare, who supported the Fine Gael Party in the vote on this motion, sponsors a definition of earnings which includes unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance? How is it that Deputy Commons has congratulated the Minister for Social Welfare on introducing a Bill which contains that definition of earnings? How is all this thing done if the Fine Gael Party were sincere when they put down that motion, and if Deputy Commons and those associated with him were sincere when they supported that motion in 1946-47?

Does that apply to pensioners?

It applies to everybody.

I do not so read it.

It applies to everybody. The law has not been amended. The law has, as Deputy Timoney pointed out, been re-enacted in order that it might catch the blind pensioner.

Is not that a gross untruth?

What else would you expect?

I suppose that is quite in order, coming from the Minister, whose social vocabulary——

From whatever source a disorderly remark comes in this House, it is dealt with by the Chair. The Minister's remark is not disorderly.

Then it is quite in order for me to accuse the Minister of uttering an untruth, a gross untruth?

The Deputy said it does not represent the position in the Bill. He clearly has not read the Bill.

The Minister has charged me with uttering a gross untruth and I am told it is quite in order. That is all I want to be certain about. I was going on to describe this Bill, not in exactly the same phraseology as the Minister has applied to something which I have said, but at any rate in terms which would leave the people under no misapprehension as to the deception which it is proposed to impose on them by the Title of the Bill. This Bill has been put before the House and has been justified here as a social welfare Bill. I think the Minister responsible for attaching that title to this measure might very well be charged with attempting to sell goods under a false description. I say that because there are six Parts in this Bill. Of these six Parts, no less than three are concerned mainly with imposing increased direct taxation on the employed worker and upon industry. By reason of the fact that the taxation is imposed in one part on the worker and in the second part on the products of his industry, it will ultimately, of course, fall upon the whole community in their capacity as consumers.

There might be some justification for that if, as a result of this increased taxation, those who are called upon to pay it were going to receive any additional benefit. But in no case are the workers who are thus taxed going to get 1d. piece by way of additional benefit, in consequence of the new impost placed upon them. Yet by using what is plainly a deceptive title he is hoping to induce them to believe otherwise.

The adoption of the title "Social Welfare Bill" for this measure is to my mind a callous piece of cold-blooded trickery. It would be much better it, instead of endeavouring to deceive people as to the full scope of this measure and the nature of many of its provisions, the Government were straight and honest about it and described the Bill as it really is. First of all, it is a measure which has two purposes. The first aim as Deputy Com-mons's speech has shown is an attempt to quieten those who voted for the coalition Parties in the belief that old age pensions would be increased to 26/- per week, that pensions would become payable at 65, and that the means test would be abolished. That is what I might describe as the soporific purpose of the measure. I think, however, that in that respect it will prove to be much less effective than the Government expects.

The second object of this Bill is to relieve the Exchequer of the cost of providing the additional amounts required to pay sickness benefit, disablement benefit, unemployment benefit and widows' and orphans' contributory pensions at the rates at which they have been paid, either in cash or in kind, for many years past. Since the Fianna Fáil Government introduced and instituted the system of supplementary allowances in extension of the benefits given under the various social schemes, insured persons who have been enjoying these supplementary benefits have not been called upon to pay one penny piece more than the original contribution fixed by statute. They got these supplementary benefits for nothing.

Even Deputy Commons must be aware of that fact but, then, of course Deputy Commons now is struggling in the tentacles of the Fine Gael octopus. The stoppers are on his eye and that clear vision, which used to characterise him when he sat on these benches, has now become bedimmed and he is no longer awake to the fact that we were last year providing widows' and orphans' contributory pensions at the rates provided for in this Bill, that we were providing unemployment insurance benefits at the rates provided for by this Bill, that we were providing national health insurance benefits and national health disablement benefits at the rates provided for in this Bill and that we did not increase the contributions which were exacted from the workers in respect of that. Now, however, all that is changed. The workers are going to have to pay for these supplementary benefits in full. In some cases they are going to have to pay more than they would be justified in paying and the Exchequer is going to be relieved accordingly.

Fine Gael, at any rate, has fulfilled one of its promises to its followers, because it did promise that if it were returned to power it would cut down a lot of expenditure on social services which it described as extravagant and it would relieve taxation upon its supporters. This Bill might as truly be entitled as the "Social Insurance (Increase of Contributions) Bill, 1948", or the "Social Services (Relief of the Exchequer) Bill, 1948", as to describe it as the Social Welfare Bill, 1948. One of the main purposes of the Bill—more than half of the Bill is taken up with provisions which are going to give effect to that purpose— is to increase taxation.

It might be instructive if those who have been speaking here on behalf of the workers and praising this Bill would give some attention to what it is supposed to do under it. I do not know how many of those who have spoken in support of the measure and who have been full of praise for the Minister for Social Welfare and the Government of which he is a member, because they have introduced it, have taken the trouble to read the explanatory memorandum. I shall say this for the Minister—and, of course, I do not often have occasion to praise either any deeds or words of his—he has been at least straightforward in regard to this and has not concealed from any one of his supporters what he is proposing to do under this measure.

The explanatory memorandum which he has issued makes it very clear that the national health insurance contributions will be increased if the Bill goes through in its present form. I do not see any reason why this House should permit it to go through in its present form. After all, last year the Fianna Fáil Administration was able to provide these benefits for the workers without imposing any additional taxation, and the year, as the Minister for Finance told us, wound up with a surplus. Therefore, as I have said, there is no reason why the increases which I am going to describe to the House should become effective if Deputies like Deputy Hickey and Deputy O'Leary, who purport to speak for the workers, take their courage in their hands and stand with us in opposing these provisions of the measure.

You should never mention the worker.

I shall tell Deputy O'Leary what the Minister proposes to do under some of the provisions of the Bill.

You would not be out only for them.

Under this Bill, male workers who come within the ambit of the national health insurance scheme, are going to have to pay an increased contribution of 2d. per week. Their weekly rate of contribution is going to be increased by 50 per cent. They are not going to get one penny piece additional benefit because of that increase. Female workers are going to have their weekly rates of contribution increased by 25 per cent. and again, they are not going to get anything in return. Those who employ male workers who are insured for national health insurance purposes are going to have to pay 2½d. additional per week in respect of each of their male employees and 3½d per week in respect of each of their female employees.

Now take the case of persons who are insured under the unemployment insurance scheme, again, if they are males, they will have to pay an increased contribution of 2d. per week.

It does not represent relatively quite as great an increase as that which will be paid under the national health insurance scheme, but, nevertheless, it is not an insignificant increase. The female worker, who is an insured person for the purposes of the Unemployment Insurance Acts, is going to have her contribution increased by 2d. per week. In respect of all this the workers have no option. They call this an "insurance scheme", but it is, perhaps, a misnomer to call it that, because what it has really done is to tax the workers in order to make them provide for the contingency of unemployment.

Employers under the Employment Insurance Act are going to have to pay an increase of 2d. per week in respect of each worker, whether either male or female. Under the widows' and orphans' scheme, as far as the generality of contributors are concerned, men will have to pay an increase of 2d. per week and, while there will be no increase in the case of female workers, nevertheless employers of male and female workers alike must pay an additional contribution of 1½d. in respect of each insured person. Thus the general position will be that male workers will have to pay 6d. per week more under this Bill and their employers will also have to pay 6d. more, while female workers will have to pay an increase of 3d. a week and their employers an increase of 7d. a week.

Let me remind the House again that in return for these increased contributions the workers are going to get nothing more than they are getting already. Let us consider what this is going to represent in the aggregate as far as the general body of workers and the general body of consumers in the community are concerned. I have made some calculations and I do not pretend that these calculations are anything more than an approximation, because I have not available to me the figures that would be necessary to estimate the position more closely. I have had to be content with such figures as were in the publications available to me in the Library.

Under the national health insurance scheme the increased rates of contribution which I have detailed represent an increase in direct taxation of male workers insured for national health purposes of £93,000 per annum; in the case of female workers £51,000 per annum; thus the total increase in direct taxation to be imposed on the workers under Part III of this Bill is £144,000 per annum. Then we must remember the consumers, because when we say that employers also are going to pay increased contributions, it is essential for us to remember that the employer will not defray the cost of the contribution out of his own pocket, but will add it to the cost of the articles they manufacture, thus passing it on to consumer, as indeed the taxation which is imposed directly on the workers will be passed on.

As happened with tobacco, cigarettes and beer under your Budget.

I am dealing with this Social Welfare Bill which the Minister apparently thinks will be good for the worker and with the additional taxation which will be imposed upon him in the most onerous and most regressive way, but I will deal with that later.

I was referring to the position of the consumers who are going to be taxed indirectly through the employers' contribution for the purpose of the national health scheme. We find that in respect of male employed persons who come within the ambit of the national health insurance scheme, an additional £116,000 is going to be taken; in the case of the female workers who come within the ambit of the scheme, an additional £63,000 is going to be taken, so that the total increase in taxation which is going to be imposed on the community, and particularly on the workers, under Part III of this Bill amounts to no less than £323,000. It is more than 50 per cent. —or rather I will say ? as I want to be cautious—more than would be got if an additional ¼d. per lb. were imposed on sugar. I know the sort of lamentation we should hear from the Labour Party benches, aye, and indeed from the Fine Gael benches, if a Fianna Fáil Government came in here and said that in order to defray the additional cost of supplementary pensions provided under the national health scheme we were going to impose an additional tax of a ¼d. a lb. on sugar. In Part III we are imposing taxation which is going to bring in this sum to the Exchequer. It is going to be collected by the Post Office and paid out by the Post Office to the National Health Insurance Society and that society then is going to have to forgo the subventions paid to it out of the Central Fund to enable it to pay the supplementary pensions. In this devious way we are going to take from the people in additional taxation £323,000 in a full year, under, remember, only one part of the Bill, Part III.

Under Part IV of the Bill the same thing is going to be done, but not, perhaps, I grant you, in precisely the same rapacious way. Part IV is entitled Amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 to 1946. Surely the Minister for Social Welfare is a master of understatement, because one would think that these amendments were designed to improve the Unemployment Insurance Acts from the point of view of those contributing to the scheme.

How does it improve them, however, from the point of view of the insured person? How are the Unemployment Insurance Acts to be improved under Part IV of this Bill? They are going to be improved in exactly the same way as the national health insurance scheme is going to be improved, in the way I have detailed to the House. I have made some calculations, and again I make the same reservation with regard to these figures as I made with regard to those I have used in respect of the national health insurance scheme. If they are erroneous, the House will forgive me, because I am labouring under the same difficulty that every other Deputy is labouring under with regard to this matter, a difficulty which was created by the sublime reticence of the Minister for Social Welfare, who did not tell us how much he proposed to collect from the workers and from the community under Part III, Part IV or Part VI of this Bill.

If my figures are wrong in any significant way, therefore, I think we shall ascribe it to the Minister for Social Welfare who did not tell the House, who did not tell the country, and who did not tell the people—because he was afraid to tell the people—how much additional revenue he was going to bring in under these new taxation provisions. Of course those who are going to go into the Lobby in support of these tax provisions, as they will ultimately have to do, did not want either the House, themselves or the country to know how much is going to be collected by the enforced sale of stamps to insured persons under the provisions of this Bill.

Now let me come to the amount involved from the workers' point of view in Part IV of the Bill. I think that male persons insured for the purpose of the Unemployment Insurance Act are going to have to pay £85,000 additional taxation under this scheme. Females will probably have to pay about £38,000 of additional taxation under this scheme. The employers will have to pay £85,000 in respect of male insured workers and £38,000 in respect of female insured workers. Therefore, the total of direct taxation for workers under Part IV of this Bill will be £123,000, and the total indirect taxation on the workers and the rest of the community as consumers will be another £123,000. Altogether, in direct and indirect taxation, under Part IV of this Bill the Minister for Finance, I think in this case, will collect £246,000. It is no wonder that Deputy Commons thought that this Bill was sounding the last post for the Minister for Social Welfare.

Then let us take Part VI of the Bill, a part in which I have great interest. Part VI is entitled "Amendments of the Widows and Orphans Act, 1935". Under that part of this measure there is going to be an increase in direct taxation on male insured workers, I calculate, of about £96,000, and an increase in indirect taxation on consumers arising out of insured male persons of about £72,000 and of insured female persons of about £84,000. So that the total increase in taxation under Part VI of the Bill is going to amount to something like £252,000.

Now let us see what is the total amount which is going to be collected under this Bill which is succinctly but inaccurately described as a Social Welfare Bill. We are going to collect under Part III £323,000. I hope Deputy O'Leary, who is making notes, will take note of these figures. We are going to collect under Part IV, under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, by additional stamps, £246,000. We are going to collect under the widows' and orphans' pensions scheme an addition of £252,000, making a modest total of £821,000 in all to be collected, let me repeat, from the workers and the community under Parts III, IV and VI of this Bill. In return for that £821,000 of additional taxation, the workers are going to get, I suppose the expression is Parliamentary, dang all.

It is more than you would give them anyhow.

The Deputy ought to remember that in the year 1935 we passed the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act; that in the year 1937 we improved the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act; that we have been responsible for many of the improvements in other Acts; and that last year, and in every year since 1941, we were responsible for giving the workers the supplementary benefits, which they are still going to get, but for which they are going to be called upon to pay for the first time in seven years. As I am going to show, they are going to do more than pay for them.

I said that this was a dual purpose Bill, very much like the dual purpose cow, a highly unsatisfactory animal when we come to examine it. First of all, I think the aim is to try to cover the confusion of those Parties who placed themselves at the disposal of the Fine Gael Party after having made election promises which the Fine Gael people would not allow them to fulfil. I said that this Bill, while relieving the Exchequer, is designed to save the faces of the Deputies who support the Coalition and who put the present Government in power. It is a very inadequate measure, I think, from that point of view. In so far as it may partially fulfil its purpose, it does so in the manner of the ostrich. Deputies opposite may think that by hiding their faces behind this Bill they and their records will escape observation. So does the ostrich when it buries its head in the sand. Government Deputies, particularly Deputies of the two Labour Parties—or are there two Labour Parties still?—and Clann na Poblachta, are in a similar position to the ostrich. They are trying to hide their faces behind this Bill, but, like the ostrich, they are leaving their tail-ends exposed. Some of these tail-ends, which are now so bedraggled, once carried very fine feathers. In that also some of the Deputies opposite resemble the ostrich.

I should like to remind those of them who are taking any interest in this Bill of what they once proposed to do. I have here a document issued over the signature of a gentleman who once described himself as co-founder of Clann na Poblachta and the loyal friend and colleague of its leader. But now, alas, he fills the rôle of political Ishmael in this House. However, when he was a member of Clann na Poblachta, Deputy Cowan made this promise to the electors: "Increases in old age pensions to 26/- a week at 65 years; widows' and orphans' pensions, blind pensions, national health benefit, unemployment insurance, and workmen's compensation increased to ensure a decent livelihood to all recipients; the means test to be abolished." When Deputy Cowan was not a member of this House and was seeking the suffrages of the electors in the constituency of Dublin North (East) just a few months ago, let me remind Clann na Poblachta Deputies what was then promised by Deputy Cowan on his own behalf and on behalf of his Party. Widows' and orphans' pensions, blind pensions, national health benefits, unemployment insurance and workmen's compensation increases to ensure a decent livelihood to all recipients. This Bill has no provision relating to workmen's compensation, so that promise is not being fulfilled.

So far as contributory widows' and orphans' pensions are concerned, this Bill makes no improvement in the position of those who were beneficiaries under that scheme and, as I have shown before this, it radically worsens the conditions of those who were compelled to contribute under the widows' and orphans' pension scheme. So far as national health benefits and disablement benefits are concerned, there is no improvement made under the provisions of this Bill. Again, people who were compelled to contribute to the National Health Insurance Society are definitely worse off to the extent of an increase of 50 per cent. on the contribution which is levied upon them by law every week. "The means test to be abolished." The means test, as Deputy Commons was constrained to admit, still survives in this Bill——

For the moment.

——in almost precisely the same form as it exists at present. I shall, perhaps, deal with that aspect of the matter later. Deputy Cowan has not abolished the means test. Neither has any other member of the Clann na Poblachta Party thought it worth his while to go to the Taoiseach or to indicate to his representatives in the Government that they had got to fulfil the pledges which were made to the people in January and February last—or else! And they could make that "or else" very effective. If this Bill does not fulfil the pledges which were made by the Clann na Poblachta Party Deputies to the people it is because the Clann na Poblachta Party Deputies themselves are not concerned to fulfil those pledges.

You made a lot of promises in 1932.

If Deputy O'Leary desires to participate in the debate he can take precautions accordingly.

I will remind the House, before I pass on from Deputy Cowan, that he promised that old age pensions would be increased to 26/- a week and that they would be payable at 65 years.

So much for Deputy Cowan. What about his one-time leader and, as Deputy Cowan once described him, "my loyal friend and colleague and co-founder with me of Clann na Poblachta." What did he undertake to do? He is now a member of the Government. He is now in the Cabinet. He had a part to play in deciding what was going to be embodied in this Bill. He said during the election that they would introduce a scheme of social insurance to enable those unable to earn their living to get benefits equal to the basic minimum wage, and that wage was to be fixed to the cost of living and would fluctuate with the cost of living. I do not know what one would describe as "the basic minimum wage." We fix an agricultural minimum wage to ensure that any person employed in agriculture will receive not less than that minimum. We know that the majority of those who are employed in agriculture receive, in fact, more. Where is there such a provision in this Bill? If we take that what the present Minister for External Affairs had in mind when he was speaking at a Clann na Poblachta meeting in Kildare during the course of the election, was the minimum agricultural wage, where is that provided for in this Bill? He said that Clann na Poblachta policy would be modelled on those of Sweden and New Zealand, where they have worked successfully. I think that if I, or any member of the Fianna Fáil Government, had introduced a Bill with these provisions and said—"Here we have a Bill which is based upon the policy enforced in Sweden and New Zealand, and which works successfully there"— the first man to hoot us out of the House in derision would be the Minister for Social Welfare, who has introduced this Bill.

Let us pass to another limb of the coalition. Let us take what was promised by the Labour candidate who stood for Dublin South-East Constituency and see what she had to offer the electorate when she was asking them to support her. She said that the Labour Party seeks support for, among other things, social security—adequate aid and protection for the aged, blind, widows and orphans and invalids by a broad scheme of social security on a contributory basis aided by Exchequer allocations; increased old age pensions to be provided at 65, and the abolition of the means test; increased national health insurance benefits to ensure that they are more closely related to actual wages; State insurance schemes replacing the present unsatisfactory workmen's compensation scheme and ensuring that the injured workers will receive compensation equal to their salary. This was what was promised by the lady who has recently been nominated to the Seanad by the Taoiseach. Where is there any attempt in this Bill to give effect to these promises which she made on behalf of herself and her Party to the electorate when she was seeking their suffrages?

I come now to a much more important person than the lady to whom I have referred. I come to the present leader of the Labour Party in this House. I have here the election address which he issued to the people when he stood as a candidate for Dublin South (Central) constituency in the general election of 1948. The election address is like most election addresses—it is adorned by a photograph of the candidate, probably as an earnest that a man with such an honest face would do his best to fulfil any promises he made to the electors. What did he say in relation to this matter of social welfare?

"The Labour Party has a social security policy," said Deputy Larkin when he issued this address in January, 1948, "to meet this situation ... there is one immediate demand"—he was not going to be baulked—"pensions of 25/- per week and no means test." Deputy Larkin is generally credited with having played a decisive part in bringing about the constitution of the coalition. Some people are unkind enough to suggest that one of the reasons for that was that he was anxious to displace Deputy Norton and assume the appearance of power where he had long enjoyed the reality. However, that is not the question——

And it is not the truth —it is another one of the Deputy's statements.

We know that Deputy Larkin is now a power in this House. He is leader of the Labour Party which might almost be described as the keystone of the coalition. Deputy Larkin promised the electorate that if he were returned to power they would be enforcing a social security policy which would give pensions of 25/- a week without a means test.

And that will happen before the next general election.

Wait and see. Do you know when the next general election is going to come? It will come like a thief in the night and it will catch you unprepared.

That will be just too bad for Deputy MacEntee.

I have now given one side of the story. I have given the picture as it was painted, perhaps, by the less responsible elements that constitute the coalition. I am going to say now what the more hide-bound reactionaries who dominate the coalition had to say on this question of social security, about which Deputy Larkin, Senator Butler, Deputy Cowan and the Minister for External Affairs were so vocal when they were standing as candidates at the general election. The people to whom I am now about to refer had very little to say about Sweden, or New Zealand, or any of the other progressive countries. They took a very poor view of what is being done elsewhere in regard to social services. In fact, they rather seemed to think that social services were an indication of an iniquitous state of society rather than otherwise; that it was wrong and unjust and entirely reprehensible to provide for the needs of the poor and the infirm and the unemployed among us.

Will you quote them on that?

I am going to quote in a moment. I am going to quote no less a person than he whom, I understand, Deputy Joseph Brennan thinks is going to follow in the footsteps of Wolfe Tone. I am going to quote from a statement which was made in this House on the 13th May, 1947. The reference is column 73. The quotation is from no less a person than the Leader of the Coalition, the commander-in-chief of the Minister for Social Welfare, Mr. Costello—the Taoiseach himself. Here is what he had to say about this question of social services and social welfare:—

"The money is wanted"—he said, with a sneer—"for social services. That is the justification for all the extravagances that have been perpetrated and inflicted upon this country by Government profligacy in the last six or seven years."

Now, that is a mouthful for Deputy O'Leary; I notice Deputy Hickey has fled lest he might hear it.

"Spending on social services is the excuse for everything. The existence of social services is an indication of ill-health in the body politic. In any case, as has been said, they are nothing more than a row of medicine bottles showing disease in the household."

The Minister for Social Welfare's new medicine bottle is a cure-all for all our social ills—I suppose it in this case carries the certificate "Approved by the Taoiseach, Mr. Costello, approved for universal consumption by the Government elements——"

You are finding it hard to swallow.

Before we finish I think the public are going to find it very hard to swallow.

Wait and see.

So much for the Taoiseach. According to him this Bill is just another medicine bottle—a very little tincture of a curative with a very large admixture of water, plus colouring matter. I am not going to suggest that the colouring matter is slightly red.

We come then to the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Finance spoke on the 14th March, 1947. The reference is column 2278. Deputy McGilligan, as he then was, now Minister for Finance, said we were instituting in this country what were called in the old days "institutions of slavery." Deputy McGilligan, as he then was, Minister for Finance as he now is, said in reference to social welfare measures that you must recreate the institution of slavery, and that we do it with what we call social services. Thus, the Minister for Finance just a little more than a year ago. So this Bill, according to him, is a new institution of slavery.

That, of course, is a gross misrepresentation.

In so far as there are going to be additional benefits and increases in benefits for old age pensions or non-contributory widows' and orphans' pensions under this Bill, here is what the Minister had to say about provisions of that sort: "What we call social services are what I would call grants-in-aid to the annuitants of the servile State." So, in fact, we have it here from the Minister for Finance that the purpose which the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Welfare and the Government had in mind when they introduced this Bill was to provide grants-in-aid to the annuitants of this servile State. It has become, I gather, a servile State since the change of Government. Is it any wonder that in such circumstances the Minister for Social Welfare has been compelled to stultify himself by introducing this Bill which falls so far short of everything which was promised by at least one-half of the coalition and promised in most resounding tones and in a most comprehensive way by the Minister for Social Welfare himself.

The 25/- a week which was suggested by Deputy Larkin, let me again remind the House, represents an increase of no less than 10/- per week over the current rate of old age pension. The 26/- which was suggested by Deputy Cowan and the Clann na Poblachta Party represents an increase of 11/- over the current rate. But where are the increases of 11/- or 10/- under this Bill? Are Deputies who have been praising this Bill aware of the fact that in many cases there will be no increase at all in the old age pension granted under it and that the position is such that, in order to ensure that there will be no actual reduction in the amount paid to many old age pensioners at the present time, Section 13 had to be introduced into the Bill? I wonder if Deputies who have been praising the Bill have read Section 13 and asked themselves why it was necessary to insert that section.

To compensate for your mismanagement in previous Governments.

If the Bill does everything that the Minister for Social Welfare and others who are supporting him and pressing him think it is going to do, where was the necessity for Section 13? Section 13 reads:—

"No person, who was, immediately before 7th day of January, 1949, in receipt of a pension and a supplement thereto under the Order of 1947, shall, if he continues to be entitled to such pension after the 6th day of January, 1949, receive less by way of pension than he would have received if this Act had not been passed and the Order of 1947 had continued in force."

Who made the Order of 1947?

You did.

The Minister for Social Welfare answers and says we did. Why was it necessary to insert Section 13? Because if Section 13 were not in the Bill many people would be receiving less by way of blind pensions than they are at present receiving under the Order made by the Fianna Fáil Government in 1947.

You stopped the food vouchers last year. I will rub that into you when I get the chance.

Let the Minister be silent for a moment; he cannot get going in his usual refined style merely by way of interruption. He had better wait until some of that postgraduate eloquence which he has cultivated somewhere in Dublin has a chance to exhibit itself. If Deputies will take the trouble to study for themselves and relate the manner in which the new scale of old age pensions will operate in conjunction with the means test to the manner in which the existing scale operates in relation to its means test, they will find that, irrespective of Section 13—which is a definite confession on the part of the Minister that many pensioners would be worse off under his Bill than they are at the moment—there are points in the scale where, in fact, old age pensioners will be receiving no more than they are in receipt of to-day and they will find also that there are many points in the scale where the increase of the old age pension is not going to be 2/6 as it purports to be under the Bill, but will be only 6d. a week. Deputy O'Leary, I think it was, said that I was going to give people only 2d. a day. What does he think of the Minister who will give them only 6d. a week in the old age pension?

You could not give them that.

What the Minister proposes is less than 1d. a day. If the Deputy will divide six by seven he will get six-sevenths of a penny a day, which is a good deal less than 2d., although I am not saying that 2d. is a lot. A lot of people under this Bill will have to be content with 1/- of an increase; some will get 1/6 and others 2/- a week, but there are a great number who will get an increase of only 6d. or 1/- a week. There are some who will get no increase at all. That is the Bill that has been introduced with such a fanfare of trumpets by the Minister, who told us how proud he was to be associated with a measure which gives many existing old age pensioners no increase, and in some cases gives them a miserable tanner.

I now come to the provisions which relate to the contributory widows' and orphans' pension scheme. I have told the House that while the contributors to that scheme are going to have their contributions increased by 50 per cent. —that is, the men—there will be no additional benefit. The justification for that is this—it is a very pious one— that it would wring the heart of the Minister if he had to do anything which would be inconsistent with the strict application of the most rigorous insurance principles. He has departed in that regard—at least his predecessors departed from that in many important respects in relation to two important measures, the national health insurance measure and the unemployment insurance measure. In both these cases the State contributes two-ninths of the total cost of the benefits which are payable under this scheme. It contributes at the rate of two-ninths of the total contributions which are collected and used in the scheme. In the case of contributory widows' and orphans' pensions the State does not contribute anything—it is entirely a pure insurance scheme without any subvention from the State.

So far as the contributory end is concerned, the contributions fully cover the cost of the scheme. They cover the cost of the pensions, plus the cost of administration. The contributions collected in respect of the workers from their employers, together with the income from the accumulative surpluses of these contributions fully defray the cost of the contributory pensions plus the cost of administering the contributory widows' and orphans' pensions scheme. If the Minister were really so concerned as to ensure that the widows' and orphans' scheme would be fully self-supporting—at least the contributory end of it would be fully self-supporting—he could have introduced just as good a scheme, giving the benefits which he proposes to pay as contributory widows' and orphans' pensions at the same rates as he proposes to pay them here and, instead of increasing the contribution by 50 per cent., he could have been content to increase it by 25 per cent. An investigation of the position which was undertaken by me in 1945—a very thorough investigation —of the whole position in relation to widows' and orphans' pensions, indicated that that scheme could be considerably improved and a scheme which, I think, is superior to that which the Minister has produced could have been devised whereby as good benefits could be given for an increased contribution of 1d. per week from the worker and the same from his employer.

The Minister has not done that because he has robbed, or proposes to rob, the contributory side of the scheme in order to enable the non-contributory pensions, which are the proper liability of the State and are not the liability of the contributors to the widows' and orphans' pension scheme, to be paid. He has done that in order that he may pass on to the shoulders of the workers a liability which properly belongs to the State. The Minister, with that chasteness of language which distinguishes most of his utterances, in his references to myself in this House, said, when I raised this matter towards the end of the debate on the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare, that I had indulged in my customary nonsense and had read apparently the same kind of drivel as I was reading there that evening, not knowing in the slightest what it meant.

If there is one person who knows— and I say it with no mock modesty— the history of the finances and the origin of the widows' and orphans' pensions scheme, it is the Deputy who is now speaking, because I, in conjunction with the then Minister for Local Government and Public Health, our present President, Mr. Seán T. O'Kelly, hammered out the provisions of this scheme. They have stood the test of time and I do not have to submit in silence when the Minister for Social Welfare chooses to refer to anything I may have to say in criticism of what he is proposing to do, as drivel. The Minister for Social Welfare tried to find in the actuary's report some justification for the action he was taking in this matter. He quoted the following from the actuary's report:—

"As indicated in paragraph 16, the sum paid during the last eight years, namely £450,000 per annum, is substantially larger than will be needed in future and an equalised annual grant during the next decennium, commencing on the 1st April, 1945, of about one-half of this sum, say £220,000, is estimated to be sufficient, together with the contributions at the present rates and the interest on the accumulated assets to meet all the expenditure out of the funds for contributory and non-contributory pensions and the cost of administration thereof and to secure that in ten years' time the invested reserves of the scheme will then be substantially equal to the present balance, which is £3,900,000."

My answer to that is that the actuary misdirected himself when he assumed——

Is that comment permissible? Is it in order to say that an actuary appointed by the Government to carry out a certain investigation misdirected himself. Surely that is a charge against the competency of the actuary, who has no opportunity of defending himself?

I do not think it is a very serious charge.

I admit that coming from a Deputy, like Deputy MacEntee, it need not be treated as serious.

The actuary made an assumption which he was not justified in making. He assumed that the contributory widows' and orphans' scheme and the non-contributory scheme were integrated with each other. They are not. The provisions which apply to them are entirely separate and distinct. A sum of £450,000 was paid in to help the Pensions Investment Fund in its early stages because it was realised that perhaps many new entrants to that fund would be entering at periods of their lives, which involved that when they and their dependents became beneficiaries under the fund, the amount of contributions which they had paid, which you might equate as premiums, would be insufficient to cover the true actuarial cost of the benefits which their widows or orphans were going to derive from the fund. It was never the intention that the contributory side of the fund would have to assume a liability and a responsibility which properly attaches to the Government.

I am glad to say that the financial provisions of the scheme were so drawn that the actuary's report showed this, that in fixing the contributions, fair provision had been made to ensure that after the number of beneficiaries under the contributory scheme reached their maximum, that is, when the amount paid by way of contributory pensions would have reached the maximum or would have stabilised itself, the income derived from the accumulated balance in the Pensions Investment Fund, together with the income derived from the contributions to date, would fully defray the cost of the contributory pensions and the cost of administering the contributory scheme.

I know the circumstances under which the scheme was initiated; I know what was in the minds of those who fashioned the scheme. The actuary does not. If the Minister had turned to paragraph 8, page 6, of the actuary's report he would have seen something which might have struck him as significant. The actuary states:—

"In the 1935 Act it was provided that there should be paid into the investment account a sum of £250,000 out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas in respect of the financial year ending 31st March, 1936; a like sum in respect of each of the next succeeding nine financial years, and thereafter such sums as the Oireachtas might determine. The 1937 Act, which, as has already been mentioned, extended the scope of the non-contributory pensions section of the scheme, at the same time increased the annual payment for the year ending 31st March, 1938, and each of the next succeeding seven years to £450,000."

Why was that done? It was done for this reason, and for this reason only, that, as the table on page 5 of the actuary's report indicates, in the year 1937 the sum of £250,000, which had been provided for in the Act of 1935, would not be sufficient to defray the full cost of the non-contributory pensions, plus the cost of their administration, that a very much larger sum would be required. Accordingly, in the year 1937, without any help or support from Deputy Norton, as he then was, the State subvention of £250,000 to the non-contributory side of the scheme, was increased to £450,000. Experience has shown that that figure is just sufficient, with a little bit over, to meet the obligations of the State with regard to non-contributory pensions. For instance, in the year 1939 the total cost of non-contributory pensions rose to £466,000, and that left nothing for administration. After that date the cost of these pensions began to decline: it was £462,000 in 1940 and £448,000 in 1948. The actuary, on the basis of the experience of the preceding years, estimated that in the year 1946 they would have cost £402,000 and that the cost would continue to decrease, until in 1961 the pensions would cost £337,000, plus, let me remind the House, the cost of administration, which in the case of non-contributory pensions, is very considerable. This £450,000 which we contracted to provide for at least eight years from 1937 to 1945, was intended——

Which you did not do.

——to cover the cost of the non-contributory pensions scheme.

You reduced it one year.

We reduced it——

I had to tell you that.

——to £250,000. You did not have to tell me that. We paid the £250,000, however, we did not steal it.

But you reduced it.

We reduced it because the calculations indicated that if we reduced it for one year and then restored it to and maintained it at the £450,000 figure, it would fully cover the cost over a long period of years of the non-contributory pensions. The reason the matter was left, the reason why, in 1937, we did not contract to pay more than £450,000 for a longer period than eight years was because we realised that the position could be re-examined at the end of that time and if the £450,000 proved to be sufficient, as we hoped it would prove, we could continue to pay it; if it were more than sufficient—in fact, it turned out to be somewhat more than sufficient—we could give the Exchequer, the taxpayer, the benefit of that; if it proved insufficient, then we could increase the subventions of the fund.

What, however, is the Minister doing? What does he propose to do in respect of this Bill? Let me repeat— and this is the whole relevance of what I am saying—the Minister under Part VI of the Bill, has so increased the contributions to be exacted from the workers and employers and ultimately from the consumers of this country, that they will be bearing a very large part of the cost of the increased non-contributory pensions under this scheme.

I wonder if those who in this House purport to speak on behalf of the workers have considered what that means. Every worker in this country bears a fair share of taxation and out of the proceeds of that general pool of taxation the cost of these non-contributory pensions should be borne. The worker, as I have said, already bears his fair share in contributing to that general pool, but over and above that, under Part VI of this Bill, the Minister for Social Welfare, one-time leader in this House of the Irish Labour Party, proposes to tax the workers twice over in order that he may pay a portion of the cost of the non-contributory pensions. The provisions of this part of the Bill are a fraud upon the insured worker of this country; they are an attempt to trick him, or they are certainly an attempt to deceive him. Far from justifying the encomiums we have listened to in this House from the members of the Party behind him, this action of the Minister should have received their criticism, as I have criticised him, if they were alert and watchful on behalf of their constituents. They should condemn him for what is a most dishonest ramp as far as the widows and orphans are concerned. In his Budget, the Minister for Finance, with the connivance and consent of the Minister for Social Welfare, whose prime responsibility it is to watch over, protect and safeguard the interests of those who have built up the fund and who have contributed to it, raided the Pensions Investment Fund, which was built up in previous years by the surplus contributions of the workers, built up over a period of years, in order that the equalised contributions drawn from the workers would enable them to secure the benefit of adequate pensions for their dependents, their widows and their children after their decease in respect of contributions fixed at a moderate rate, that they paid over a long period. That is why the Pensions Investment Fund was set up. It was never the intention of us who drafted this legislation and asked the House to enact it, to tax the people to provide the £450,000 or to ask the contributors to the fund, the insured persons, to do any more, over and above what they contributed as general taxpayers, than to provide for their own widows and children. As I have said, they have already, as general taxpayers, contributed to the general pool of taxation out of which the non-contributory pensions should be paid. This is unjust and inequitable and should be raised by those who pretend to speak on behalf of the workers. It is unjust for the Minister for Social Welfare to do what he has already consented to the Minister for Finance doing in relation to this fund. I hope that when the Dáil comes to consider this in Committee, they will support an amendment, which will be designed to ensure that the interests of the contributors to the widows' and orphans' pensions fund be fully protected and safeguarded from such a raid as was made on the fund this year by the Minister for Finance.

I am going to be very short in my contribution to this debate. I got up merely for the purpose of correcting one of the many misrepresentations of Deputy MacEntee in the course of his speech. Deputy MacEntee has achieved a certain political notoriety, built up to a very great extent on the particular type of political misrepresentation which he indulges in in this House and on election platforms. I am well aware that that particular Deputy has the habit of apologising for the dirt he has thrown five or six years later when the damage is done. Deputy MacEntee purported to quote accurately some of the statements made by the Taoiseach when he was an opposition Deputy in this House with regard to social services generally. He purported to do the same thing with regard to the present Minister for Finance. My reason for getting up here is a simple one. I want to let the House know and to place on record the full quotation of the speech in question by the then Deputy Costello. Let fair-minded Deputies in this House judge for themselves whether or not Deputy MacEntee was deliberately misrepresenting the speech of Deputy Costello, as he was then, for the purpose of making a dishonest political argument against Deputy Costello as Taoiseach. The quotation given by Deputy MacEntee to which I am referring, appears on column 73 of the Official Reports, Volume 106.

The Taoiseach was referring to the fact, as Deputy MacEntee said, that it was customary for the Fianna Fáil Government to give social services and the increase in the amounts spent on social services as an excuse whenever they were charged with extravagance. The Taoiseach said:—

"Spending on social services is the excuse for everything. The existence of social services is an indication of ill-health in the body politic. In any case, as has been said, they are nothing more than a row of medicine bottles showing disease in the household."

Deputy MacEntee ended the quotation there. He taunted Deputies on these benches with that particular quotation. He told us that that was the view of the Taoiseach regarding the necessity or otherwise of social services and deliberately set out to give the impression to Deputies and, through the columns of the Irish Press, to people throughout the country that the Taoiseach was opposed to this Bill and to social services generally. I want to give the fuller quotation. The Taoiseach went on:—

"The sounder your economic fabric, the less need there is for social services. But, because of the policy of the Government (that is the Fianna Fáil Government), who have reduced agricultural production, caused the cost of living to rise to the soaring heights it has arisen, and because of the malnutrition people are suffering from, we require these additional social services. It is all very fine to say they will cost millions of money. But when you find an old age pensioner, with all these millions of money being spent and being used as a justification for Government extravagance, being presented with the price of seven and a half packets of cigarettes on which to live every week, I think the argument of social services will have little appeal for those people who have been looking and are still looking for some indication of the Government's intention to control prices, to reduce expenditure, and do their part in controlling the cost of living."

That is the view expressed by the Taoiseach at the time. That in no way resembles the picture which Deputy MacEntee tried to paint here for the purpose of trying to deceive Deputies and the people throughout the country through the columns of the Irish Press to-morrow morning.

Unfortunately, I had not time to find the exact quotation from the speech of the present Minister for Finance which was quoted by Deputy MacEntee. I think, however, that from what I have given of that quotation Deputies on all sides of the House will appreciate that the case being built up by Deputy MacEntee was politically dishonest and, as I say, was for the purpose of deceiving us and those outside the House. I think from the quotation which I have given the House they will be able to judge whether or not the quotation attributed to the Minister for Finance was accurate and given fully and in its context. I am quite certain that it was not. I heard the Minister for Finance talking on this particular subject in his Budget statement. Every Deputy knows quite well what his views are, and I subscribe to those views. I think that the more you can reduce the necessity for social services the better, and the better it will be for the entire fabric of this State. I do not think that we can pat ourselves on the back because we have a big bill for social services or even because we are going to increase that bill.

I agree with the remarks made by the Taoiseach which I have quoted and with the case presented by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement, that, as things are here at the moment, it is not only desirable but absolutely necessary and essential that we should have social services, that we should improve our social services, that we should give the increased benefits which the Minister is giving in this Bill. I think that is absolutely necessary, and, for my part, I want to congratulate very heartily the present Minister for Social Welfare on this Bill and on the work which he has put into this Bill to give these increased benefits in a period under six months since he came into office.

Deputy MacEntee is fond of browsing amongst old newspaper cuttings. I have done the same thing occasionally. I am very well aware of the promises made by Fianna Fáil in 1932 and earlier years. I am also very well aware of the extent to which they failed to carry out their promises, and they had 16 years in which to do it. This Government has been in office for less than six months. I made this claim before and I make it again, that they have done far more for subsistence pensioners in this country in that time than Fianna Fáil did in their whole 16 years. I am quite certain, as the Minister remarked this afternoon, that before very many years have passed there will be even more considerable improvements, if these improvements are necessary.

I hope we shall arrive at a stage in this country some time when the necessity for social services, of some kind at any rate, will be completely eliminated. I want to explain that, because, as I say, I know the capabilities of Deputies opposite so far as misrepresentation is concerned. There are certain social services that will always be necessary, no matter how much you step up production, no matter how you raise the standard of living. There will be people who cannot help themselves, due to old age, ill-health or blindness. Whatever the reason may be, there will be certain individuals who cannot help themselves and who must rely on the State for assistance. In so far as that is so, social services will always remain and must always remain, and be encouraged by whatever Government is in power. But, so far as a great deal of the social services are concerned, I believe that the real remedy is in increasing the standard of living of our people. I believe that if you do that, and it can be done, then you are reducing, and eventually may eliminate, the necessity for social services of that particular type.

I have dealt with Deputy MacEntee and I am very sorry he did not wait to hear it, because he has the habit of apologising for his utterances five years too late. I think that if his attention was called to the fact that the cutting he was quoting from was incomplete and in no way represented the views of the Taoiseach, he might have apologised before he left the House, instead of waiting for five years.

I would not take part in this debate except that my name was mentioned by the former Minister for Local Government who has now left the House. I witnessed Deputy MacEntee shedding tears about the poor people and the workers. The ex-Minister, when in office, would not sanction for the road workers of County Tipperary or other counties more than 2d. a day and he now tells us about what his Party was going to do if they had been returned to office. Deputy Dr. Ryan also told us about what they were going to do but last October Deputy Dr. Ryan, when Minister for Social Welfare, said that relief measures would cost £500,000, and that the State could not afford it. In that he was backed by the Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party. I am glad to be able to say that since this inter-Party Government has come into office the Minister for Social Welfare and the Minister for Finance have been able to find £2,500,000 for the old people and the widows and orphans of this State despite all the mismanagement and squandermania that went on in the past 16 years under a one-man Government. The people are thankful for the change of Government because the Fianna Fáil Party forgot the promises they made in 1932. The means test is one of the meanest tests carried out in any country. During the term of office of the ex-Minister, widows were getting as low as 2/- a week and even 1/- a week—and some people, because they were under a certain age, got nothing at all. I do not want to throw bouquets at this Bill. It is not all that I would expect it to be but I can understand that, considering the condition in which the affairs of State were handed over to us, it is the best that can be done at the moment and I am glad that the Minister has plans for a bigger scheme. The means test is applied to Old I.R.A. men who got a pension for service rendered and who are unfortunate enough to be unemployed. There is no mention of them in this Bill.

That would not come under social welfare.

A means test is applied to those people who are unemployed and registered in the labour exchanges.

That is for military service rendered.

Yes. Sums as low as 3/6 and 4/- a week are deducted at the labour exchange. I should like the Minister to bear that point in mind and to see that the position is remedied. I know of many cases in my constituency which were investigated by officers and in due course the applicant would receive a letter from the Custom House saying that the Minister regrets that the applicant is not entitled to a pension because her husband is working with the county council. Female old age pensioners whose husbands are working on the roads are denied the old age pension.

And will, under this Bill.

Yes, because the means test is not extended enough. I do not agree on the sum of £52, but it is an improvement on the sum of £39 which was in force heretofore. I should like to see it extended so that if a man—even if he were an old age pensioner—could do a little work he would be able to earn even £1 a week. It should be remembered that many people in this country do not like to give up work and cannot afford to give up work on the 17/6. I would point out that it is costing the ratepayers more than 17/6 a week to keep a person in a county home, in a mental hospital, or even in Mountjoy at the present time. That sum is nothing to boast about at all considering the present-day value of money, but it is a step in the right direction. No man wants to be unemployed to-day if he can have employment, because unemployment has always been a miserable existence and it always will be so.

The last Government made many blunders. Money was found for luxury hotels, aeroplanes, and so forth, but the plain people of Ireland were let down. I hope that this Government— some people call it a Fine Gael Government, but I do not care what it is called so long as it does something for the people whom I represent—will improve conditions in this country. If they do, they will have my support. 23,000 widows and orphans and thousands of blind persons were forgotten by the previous Government, and it is grand to see that this new Government are not forgetting them. They are only six months in power, and yet they have gone a certain distance on the road towards improving conditions. When the new Government came into office the ex-Ministers went around the country saying that the new Government would not hold office for longer than six weeks, but they are still here after six months, and they have effected an improvement in conditions. They removed the taxes which Deputy Aiken imposed in the supplementary Budget. That was something that Fianna Fáil said they could not do because the money had to be found and the way they found it was by penalising the workers—the workers on whose behalf Deputy MacEntee is now shedding salt tears.

This is not unemployment now.

It is very hard to have to listen to the ex-Ministers speak when we remember how they used to march up the lobbies, accompanied by Deputy P.J. Burke, whether they were right or wrong, to vote as they were told to vote by their leader. Last October they were against increased old age pensions.

The Deputy might now tell us something about the Bill.

The Bill is not as we Labour people would like it to be. I am sure that if we had a Labour Government we would introduce a much better Bill. We have to take the best alternative that offers itself at the moment, and hope that when the White Paper is issued we shall be in a position to make an even greater improvement. I know that the people are very happy with this small increase of 5/- in the rural areas and 2/6 in the towns. The pauper system under which they had to apply to the home assistance officer for an extra 2/6 is done away with. That was the system instituted by Fianna Fáil, which described itself as a Christian Government. I am glad that sort of system has been done away with. Reference has been made in this House to speeches made by Government Deputies during the election. Why was not reference made by Fianna Fáil when they were first taking office in 1932 and when they promised to bring back the emigrants to give employment to all, and so forth? I would like to see an increase in old age pensions to £1. I think 25/- would just give them an existence.

The Deputy is coming down 5/-.

With the White Paper in view, I hope it will be 35/-. You, of course, did not want this at all.

I would like £5, if it were possible.

You gave ex-Ministers £500 in pension. The money was found for that. If we cut down on some of our State institutions we could probably give 25/-. We should economise on pensions for ex-Ministers.

You are a great economist.

It could be done. We could do away with Arus an Uachtaran.

I wonder would the Deputy give us some of the speeches he made down in Wexford.

I wonder would Deputy Burke be orderly in the debate.

I said down in Wexford that I did not care who was Taoiseach if the people in my constituency got some increase in their pensions. We are advancing now in the right direction. There is plenty of money in the country. Nobody will worry about the halfpenny or penny increase on the cards because what one never had one does not miss. I stamped cards for 25 years. Probably Deputy Burke does not stamp a card in the mental hospital. I paid in stamps for 25 years and I never got any benefits. I am not entitled to benefit to-day and, if I died to-morrow, my widow would get nothing.

We would look after you, Deputy.

You did not go the right way about it the last time you walked up there. I am stating facts. The workers about whom Deputy MacEntee is so concerned will have no objection to paying an extra penny or halfpenny if it means an improvement in the position of the necessitous. People who use that kind of argument use it because they have nothing else to advance. Deputy MacEntee made reference to the Labour Party. A few months ago we were deprived by a Parliamentary Secretary in the Fianna Fáil Government from making representations in the Custom House on behalf of our constituents. The people who did that have very little right to stand up here and talk as they do. They can tell us now the grand schemes they were going to carry out because their day has gone. The people will not be so easily poisoned with the insidious propaganda of the Party organ of the opposition. This is the right kind of Government to have in this country. Everybody is represented in it. We have the worker, the lawyer and the doctor working in harmony. It is that harmony that has brought about the improvement in the position of our pensioners. The sooner the opposition realise that this Government is going to function——

I think they realise it already.

——despite all the efforts of the Irish Press the better it will be for themselves. Fianna Fáil in their 16 years of office failed to do anything for these people. I am glad that blind pensions will be given at 21 instead of 30. Who did the Fianna Fáil Government think was going to keep a blind person until he reached 30 years of age? I hope that when the White Paper is issued another £2,500,000 will be available to improve the position of our pensioners. I have no doubt more money will be available because the Government is going the right way about it. I am glad that the Minister after six short months in office has at last done something tangible for the most down-trodden sections of our community.

I looked forward with interest to the Minister for Social Welfare's introductory speech. I must say that it struck me that all through the course of his opening statement he was rather uneasy. His tone was very apologetic. He apologised for certain items in the Bill, first of all by saying that, "with the limited financial resources" at their disposal, it was the best they could do at the present time.

He apologised in detail for certain sections of the Bill on other grounds. That section which raises the workers' and employers' contributions for national health, but does not raise the benefits for the worker, he apologised for on the grounds that he was keeping what he called the fundamental insurance principle. Fianna Fáil was a bad Government, a reckless Government, which trod on the backs of the workers because it forsook "the fundamental insurance principle" and gave the workers something for which they had not paid on their cards. They are going to get no more under this Bill for national health insurance benefits, but they will pay more in their stamps. They are being taxed as workers to pay for the benefits they got free from the State under Fianna Fáil. He apologised in the same way for increasing the contributions from the worker and employer under the unemployment insurance scheme. The same benefits will be paid under this Bill as have been paid for a number of years —not a penny more—but there will be a deduction from the worker's wage; there will be a contribution also from his employer in order to pay into the Exchequer the money that went to support that fund for the past few years. No further benefits will be received by the workers, but their contributions will be increased.

He apologised also for increasing the stamps for contributory widows' pensions. The grounds were the same, that he was keeping "the fundamental insurance principle". The workers are going to be taxed, the people who employ them will be taxed, in order to keep that fund up, a fund which was being supplied out of the Exchequer for a number of years past in order that the benefits might be at the height which they now are. Those benefits are not being increased under this Bill.

I looked forward to the Minister's speech to hear what apology he had for Sections 13 and 54, but there was no apology and no word of explanation in the Minister's speech about Section 13. He glossed over it as if it were not there and he glossed over Section 54 as if it were not there. Section 13 says:—

"No person, who was, immediately before the 7th day of January, 1949, in receipt of a pension and a supplement thereto under the Order of 1947, shall, if he continues to be entitled to such pension after the 6th day of January, 1949, receive less by way of pension than he would have received if this Act had not been passed and the Order of 1947 had continued in force."

No person in the categories referred to "shall receive less" under this Bill and the reason that was put in was to ensure that certain existing pensioners would not be cut under the provisions of the Bill. The situation will be that after the 7th January next there will be pensioners in no way different as to family circumstances or income who will be receiving different rates of old age pensions because of the date on which they got their pensions. If they are 70 before the 7th January and if they got the pension before it they will have the Fianna Fáil rate; if not, they will be cut down to the inter-Party rate of pension.

As well as increasing certain pensions under this Bill and as well as increasing the contributions from the workers and employers, this Bill also cuts down the rates of pension and supplement to certain classes of old age pensioners. At the present time, under the old age pension code as it stands, old age pensioners with dependent children could have 25/- or 30/- a week and in some cases more. They will continue under this saving clause to carry it while the children are within the appropriate age, but a person similarly circumstanced as to numbers of children and income who gets a pension after 7th January will get only 17/6, so that this Bill cuts down certain classes of old age pensions.

Will they be much below the 12/6?

Certain of them who might otherwise get 25/- or 30/- under Fianna Fáil will get a maximum of 17/6, and some may get only 5/- under this Bill, if they have a certain income. We heard a lot from the Minister for Lands at one time. He was one of the persons loudest in denouncing Ministerial salaries—the idea that we could not increase the old age pensions while Ministerial salaries were being increased. His colleague, Deputy Commons, was very loud about the increase in Deputies' allowances, seeing that the old age pensions were not increased. Deputy Commons went so far as to say that he would not take the filthy lucre, that he would pay it back. A Parliamentary reply the other day disclosed the fact that he did not pay any of it back since he was elected.

That is not true.

There was an answer from the Minister for Finance, who was asked what Deputies had returned their allowance or portion of it since the 18th February and that answer disclosed that not a single one did. Deputy Commons got his colleague, Deputy Cafferky, out the window because he went around Mayo saying what he was going to do.

The Minister for Lands, when he was plain Deputy Blowick, was loud in his denunciations of the big ministerial salaries, the "imperial rates" of ministerial salaries. I do not think they are imperial rates. I think that if Deputy Blowick does his job as Minister for Lands, it pays the people to give him that rate of salary and all the other emoluments that are attached to ministerial rank, but Deputy Blowick, the Minister for Lands, has changed his mind. Yet there is no change at all in certain other payments by the State. There are certain classes of old age pensioners who must not get what Fianna Fáil gave them. That is a fairly long jump in political education. The Minister for Lands must have persuaded himself that it is the right thing to do, but I think that the people of the country are entitled to know the arguments which convinced him that it is the right thing to carry on ministerial allowances, Parliamentary allowances, judges' salaries and all the other payments which he criticised, while he proposes to give certain classes of old age pensioners actually less than what Fianna Fáil gave them.

If it is incorrect the Minister is here in the Dáil and he can read for himself. Anybody can read the Order, under which old age pensioners were to get supplements of 7/6 or 5/-, according to their circumstances, over and above the 15/- standard rate of the old age pension as it is to-day. Actually he can ascertain from the Department of Finance or the Department of Social Welfare that at the moment there are old age pensioners who are entitled to, and who are drawing, 25/- or 30/- a week. After the 7th January, according to this Bill, the maximum they will get will be 17/6.

Now we know why the finances of the country are so depleted.

The Minister for Lands cannot just laugh it off.

I am laughing at the effort you are making to try to fool the people, but that day has gone.

Deputy Blowick cannot fool the person who will see after the 7th January that, under this Bill, a pensioner who is in all particulars similarly circumstanced to the old age pensioner who is now getting 25/- per week will only get 17/6 a week.

I never met one of them. Where did you find them?

If this Bill passes there will be many such people after the 7th January.

We shall hear all about them.

I should like to say at this juncture that it has been arranged between the Whips of the various Parties that the debate should conclude at 9 o'clock or, at least, that the Minister will start to conclude at 9 o'clock. There are at least six or seven other Deputies who wish to speak. While I do not suggest for one moment that Deputy Aiken should cut short his remarks, I think it is only reasonable that an opportunity should be afforded to others who want to speak of saying a few words.

I shall be as brief as I can. I have been here in the House for a number of years and I have heard certain statements made. I have seen certain promises that were made throughout the country and I am curious to know what has happened since. One of the things that intrigues me is this financial mystery. Where has the money gone to? It used to be: "Where is the money going to come from?" but now I want to know where has the money gone to—all the money that was in this country a couple of years ago. We were told that there was "no financial difficulty" and that we had "plenty of money" to pay old age pensioners 22/6 with no means test or, if there was to be a means test, the first £52 of income was to be ignored. I do not claim that our economy would have supported pensions at that rate, but there are Deputies opposite who did claim that it would support them and that there was "plenty of money in the country".

The excuse of the Minister for Social Welfare here yesterday was that we had "limited financial resources". When he was proposing a motion in 1946, just a couple of years ago, under which it was proposed to give a pension of 22/6 and to exclude the first £52 of income in the means test, he said "the money could be easily found". Why cannot he find it to-day for a pension of 17/6 and a means test under which only the first £15 of income is excluded from the calculation of means? Where has all the money gone to—the £12,000,000 that could be easily found to carry out the proposals he made in March, 1946, whereas in July, 1948, he has to go and tax the workers in order to get the money to give something to the old age pensioners? Where has all the money gone to? Deputy Norton, as he then was, said on the 8th March, 1946—the quotation is to be found in Volume 99, column 2279—when he was speaking to his motion regarding a pension of 22/6 and proposing to exclude the first £52 of income in the calculation of means:—

"What this motion says to the old age pensioner who got 10/- a week in 1916 is that, having regard to the increased cost of living, he ought not to get less than 22/6 per week now."

"Now" was two years ago and since that time, and particularly since the inter-Party Government came into office, the cost of living has gone up. For the last two and a half years we may take it that it has gone up by at least 10 or 15 per cent., so that in order to compensate the pensioner for the cost of living, according to the ideas of the Minister for Social Welfare at that time, the old age pension would now require to be 24/-, 25/- or 26/- a week. The Minister for Finance supported the Minister for Social Welfare in 1946 in asking for this £12,000,000. The sum of £12,000,000 did not frighten him then; he did not propose that we should tax the workers who stamp their cards in order to get the money. He said in the course of his remarks in column 2281 of the same volume:—

"The Minister, therefore, attempts to frighten the people by saying that the proposal here in its fullest form would mean an addition of £12,000,000 per year and wants to know where that could be got. The money is already here."

That is what the Minister for Finance said in 1946. The money was there in 1946; I want to know where it has gone to.

Deputy Norton, as he then was, intervened in another debate and it is not a year ago. The reference is Volume 107, column 236. He said:—

"How can you justify giving 2/6 to the old age pensioner and £144 additional allowance to a Deputy?"

I want to know how he can justify at the moment, in view of his past, leaving Deputies' and other allowances as they are—as I think they should be left—and cutting the pension of certain old age pensioners. Not alone is he reducing certain classes of old age pensions, but he is reducing certain classes of widows because the same saving clause is put in Section 54 referring to widows.

Another point that the Minister was also very strong on was the means test. Indeed, all Parties in the Government were very keenly against the means test. The Minister for External Affairs in his election appeal said about the means test: "There are no means tests for Ministers or Parliamentary Secretaries; there are for the old people". I would like to know, and I think the people would like to know, by what process the Minister for External Affairs came to the conclusion that the right thing to do was to leave the Ministers' and Parliamentary Secretaries' salaries as they are and to keep the means test for old age pensioners and in certain cases to cut them down below what they were getting under Fianna Fáil. The Minister for External Affairs in that same document, appealing to the electorate of County Dublin, said : "I solemnly undertake" to do several things.... No. 4 was: "On all occasions to defend the weakest sections of the community irrespective of political affiliations". Surely one of the weakest sections of the community is the old age pensioners who have children dependent upon them.

The Minister for Social Welfare to-day, when he was asked why he put in clause 13, interjected: "That was to compensate for your mismanagement". He said it to Deputy MacEntee. The mismanagement was that we decided, when goods became short and had to be rationed at the beginning of the war, that a supplementary food allowance should be given to old age pensioners and that they should also be given a supplement for each dependent child. When we decided to translate the food vouchers to cash supplements, they continued to draw cash supplements for every child dependent on them. This Bill, however, provides for the old age pensioner alone, except in cases where they are already in receipt of pensions and supplementary allowances for children under Fianna Fáil legislation.

It is no wonder that the Minister skipped any reference to Clause 13. It is usual for a Minister when introducing a Bill, particularly a Bill of this character which is all cross-references, to explain the intricate sections that might not be apparent. That is his duty as a Minister, to inform the House as to what is in the Bill, but Section 13 and Section 54 were not even mentioned by the Minister when he was introducing this Bill. It is quite obvious from the Minister for Social Welfare's attitude when introducing the Bill that he did not like it. Why is he standing for it? When he insisted he did get an additional 11/- per week for certain sections of Government employees at a time when everyone else had to stand still. Did he say, when he was getting that 11/- per week for Post Office workers, that he would not ask for anything more from the Minister for Finance? Surely to goodness a promise of that kind, if it were made, would not bind him to bring through this House a Bill which contained a clause reducing the old age pension for certain sections.

It is normal for members of Clann na Poblachta, for the Labour groups and for Clann na Talmhan, when we suggest that certain things should be carried out, because they promised the people that they would put certain policies into operation if they were elected, to give the excuse: "We cannot do that; it would require legislation." In fact, they give that excuse when no legislation is required. But we have legislation now.

If they do not carry out the promises that they made to the people —some of them promised 32/6 per week and no means test and others 25/-; the minimum was about 25/- —they cannot use the old excuse that it would require legislation. We are now legislating and they have an opportunity of explaining to the people why they have so changed their minds that what they thought was possible a couple of years ago, and particularly during the election, is not now financially possible, even to the extent of three-fourths. Where has all the money gone? The Minister for Finance used to throw millions around. Deputy Cowan, in fact, would only be trotting after him on any platform in Dublin. Even in this House, as I have quoted in another debate of this kind, £12,000,000 was easy to find, according to the Minister for Finance.

People in glasshouses should not throw stones.

In another debate from which I quoted recently the Minister for Finance said that, "if there is some good purpose for which Irish money is required, we can print it." Why do we not print the money required for giving the old age pensioners some increase, instead of taxing the people who are stamping national health, unemployment insurance and widows' and orphans' pensions cards? I do not believe in that policy. The Minister for Finance, however, persuaded a number of people in the country that it was possible and that the reason we did not do it when we were on the Government Benches was because we were bloated capitalist conspirators. Where are the printing machines gone to?

The Minister for Lands may smile at that, but a number of people throughout the country voted for him and for others who put him on the Government Benches on the plea that there was no financial difficulty in this country, that it was a figment of the Fianna Fáil imagination. It would be well if Ministers would explain now what is the economic and financial truth of the matter. It would be well for them to explain why they were leaving Ministers and Deputies with the same emoluments and only giving a very modest increase to certain old age pensioners and no increase to widows under the contributory scheme, to the national health insurance contributors and to the contributors under the unemployment insurance scheme.

It was more than you gave.

There is not a single penny more being given under this Bill to national health insurance contributors, to widows under the contributory scheme, or to unemployment insurance contributors.

There is to the old age pensioners, and that is more than you gave.

Yes, but not to the others. They have taxed the contributory people who stamp their cards and they have left Deputy Collins with the allowance which they used to growl about. All I am asking is that they should explain——

I have not to explain that.

The Minister for Lands is very tough. He will have a lot to explain to people in County Mayo. Let us hope he will take a few Sundays off and take a trip down to Mayo in the car that he used to denounce and explain particularly to the people why it is that they are going to cut down the pensions of certain classes of old age pensioners and certain classes of widows. When he has done that, he will have done a good week-end's work and he can come back here and smile again.

Is the Minister using the car the Deputy used to use?

God forbid.

The Minister for Lands is quite entitled to use his car as long as he is Minister for Lands. I hope he will have that car and all the petrol he wants to explain his policy and the policy of the Government to the people and that he will continue to draw his salary. I want him to explain why he used to have different views. He has changed his views. By what process did he come to that conclusion? I am asking him to explain that to the people of County Mayo.

As there are other Deputies who wish to speak, I do not propose to submit this Bill to the critical examination to which I would otherwise submit it.

I have left the Deputy almost one hour for his speech.

There are other Deputies who wish to speak. I am not complaining of the length of Deputy Aiken's contribution. I want to explain to the House and for the purposes of the record why I am not going to use, to the exclusion of other Deputies, the 50 minutes available in a critical analysis of this Bill. I want to make it perfectly clear so that there can be no misunderstanding by anyone that during the general election campaign I did advocate 26/- per week for old age pensions, that pensions should be paid at 65 years of age and that there should be no means test. I stand over that policy now, just as I stood over it then. In so far as this Bill introduced by the Minister fails to reach the objective which I had in mind and which the Party with which I was associated had in mind, it is a disappointment. I frankly state that this Bill does not at all reach my expectations. I appreciate the difficulty of the Minister. I appreciate that in five months of office he has brought in provisions here which he states will cost the Exchequer £2,500,000 in a full year. If that £2,500,000 are to be made available for those weaker sections of the community it is undoubtedly an advance on things as they were. That is the most favourable thing I can say with regard to the Bill. I know that Deputy Norton, the Minister for Social Welfare, is as anxious as I am to bring up those pensions and those allowances to a rate that will enable a man or a woman or a child, depending on those allowances, to live in ordinary conditions of decency. I know that that is the objective of the Minister just as it is my objective. In so far as he has not reached that objective I say that this Bill is disappointing. In so far as it has made some progress towards that objective the Bill is to be welcomed. I understood from Deputy Lemass last night that it is the practice of the House that no private Deputy may put down any amendment to this Bill that will involve a charge on public funds.

That is the practice not only here but in many other places. It is the Government's privilege.

I appreciate that to that extent persons such as myself cannot on the next Stage of the Bill put down an amendment to increase any of those allowances or in fact to reduce any of the contributions that are to be paid by contributors under the different schemes. I have some personal difficulty in knowing to what extent an ordinary Deputy can improve this Bill in any way by a suggested amendment on the Committee Stage. However, in these few general remarks that I have made I want to be fair to myself, to the House and to those Deputies who are anxious to speak and I will content myself with that statement in brief of my principles in regard to social welfare schemes and social services generally.

I want to congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. Many Deputies have said that it does not go far enough but at any rate it goes a long distance to meet the claims of the weaker sections of the community. Deputy MacEntee attacked this Bill so vigorously that I am rather expecting that he will marshal his entire Party into the Division Lobby to vote against it. I do not know his intentions but he seemed to claim that this Bill is a retrograde step as far as social services are concerned. I do not think any sensible Deputy would agree with him on that point. A great philosopher once said that truth is to be found at the bottom of the well but when Deputy MacEntee puts on his diving suit he hardly ever succeeds in bringing up the truth. He brings up a lot of other things that do not as a rule look well, sound well or smell well.

It all depends on the kind of well he goes into.

I think that neither Deputy MacEntee nor Deputy Aiken did justice to themselves in their approach to this measure. It is a step forward no matter from what angle we may look at it, even if it does not go as far as some of us would desire. Apart from the general principle that it raises the standard of old age pensions there are some very useful reforms in it also. I was very glad that the Minister decided to reduce the age limit for blind pensions. During my career as a Deputy I have come upon quite a number of blind persons whose parents or guardians were worried as to their future until they would reach 30 years of age. As we know, it is, perhaps, possible for parents or guardians to look after those people so afflicted up to the age of 21 but after that there is always the danger that they may be left on their own. In this Bill the State is coming to the rescue of that deserving section of the community.

Like other Deputies, there are some small points in this Bill which I should like to see improved. There is, for example, the case of the agricultural labourer. I do not think that in the case of a man who is a general agricultural labourer there should be any means test. There does not seem to be any justification for depriving a man of a pension when he reaches the age of 70 just because he has been engaged in agricultural work and obtained a wage. Only to-day I received a letter from such a person. He said that although he is well over 70 years of age he has not yet received his full old age pension just because he works occasionally. That is an economy which ought not to be practised. A person who has reached 70 years of age and who has worked as a manual labourer all his life should automatically receive a pension. That is one reform which ought to be introduced. Another reform which ought to be introduced concerns small farmers. I do not think that the present system of assessing means is right or desirable or that it is even an efficient system. People residing on or owning a small holding under a certain valuation should be entitled to a pension. There is no sense in sending down an official to try to estimate the income which a person derives from a few cows or a few hens. If persons with land under a certain valuation are entitled to a pension, even though they are the owners of a small holding, they should be given it.

People perhaps with a higher valuation might be entitled to old age pensions without any investigation if they assign their places over to their sons and are simply maintained on the holding. Reforms of that kind are urgently needed. We all welcome the fact that a more comprehensive scheme is contemplated—a scheme which will cover all forms of want and which will provide insurance against the fear of want. Pending the introduction of such a scheme we welcome this Bill as a step forward.

I think it will be generally agreed that the biggest drawback of the old age pension code is that it penalises the thrifty man. A man who tries to provide something for his old age or who imbues his children with a sufficiently Christian spirit so that they are prepared to look after their parents should they be in need is not qualified for an old age pension under the present code. The man who does not save and who is not thrifty gets the pension without any difficulty at all. Unfortunately this Bill has done nothing to alleviate that situation. The lower limit of the means test is retained at the same figure. I think the Minister should have raised the lower figure or at least brought it back to where it was pre-1924, particularly in view of the cost of living to-day. I think raising it at the lower end is the more important step.

The Minister has provided a clause in the Bill under which non-manual workers who passed out of insurance some years ago and who were brought back when the limit of salary was raised are covered in case they should become unemployed and there is no break in their insurance. I want the Minister to give similar cover to widows. The number of cases involved would be comparatively small. I have met one case myself and I think it shows the necessity for extending the scope of the present measure to bring in widows. A certain man was continuously in employment from 1915 to 1943—that is, 28 years. Due to the rise in wages he went over the limit of £250 in 1943. In 1947 he was brought back under the Act which was introduced in this House and which extended the limits to £500. That was in April, 1947. He died in August of that year and his widow has been ruled out of benefit on the ground that he had not 104 contributions since his last entry into insurance. His 28 years' payments were ignored. I suggest that if that case arose in ordinary outside industrial insurance the general consensus of opinion would be that the widow should benefit. That is what I am asking the Minister to do in this case. The number will be limited because it will only apply to those that occur within two years. The cost would not be very great. I understand that this particular fund received no State aid. It is able to stand on its own feet. That is another reason why I think the Minister should accede to my request. I am sure that he will consider the matter sympathetically.

I welcome this measure and I realise that it is an advance. The Minister deserved the appreciation of everybody in taking this step forward in social services. At the same time I do not agree that the modification of the means test has been explained in full detail. In the rural areas the means test is of vital importance. I understand from the Minister's statement that it is open to various interpretations. Something more definite and more concrete from the Minister on the Final Stages of the Bill would be welcomed by the people in my constituency. I suggest that it never was intended by any Government that the interpretations which are placed upon the means test by the investigation officers should be the interpretations under Statute. The investigation officers adhere rigidly to the letter of the law and they make it impossible for the average man or woman to qualify for either old age or widows' and orphans' pensions. No matter what interpretation is put on this means test, modified or otherwise, I feel that these people will meet with the same fate unless the Minister makes it very clear that there is one definite minimum with which there can be no interference. I have in mind various cases that have happened in the past. Within the past month I had one case where a man had 8/- per week with a £7 valuation. In due course his wife became eligible for a pension but, instead of bringing her up to the proper level, the investigation officer cut the old man's pension by 4/- and the total between the two is now 8/- —that is, 4/- each. There are cases like that. I am sure that it was never intended that such an interpretation should occur under the old age pensions code. I am sure the Minister does not intend that it should continue in the future. He is motivated by the best intentions. I congratulate him on this present measure. But, it will be nullified if his officials throughout the country put a wrong interpretation on these matters and take advantage of the so-called modification in the means test. I suggest it should be more definite and I am sure the Minister will clarify the position in the course of his reply.

With regard to widows' and orphans' pensions, there are anomalies. I have come across a case where a widow with one child will receive as much as a widow with two children. The basic allowance is the same, but the difference comes in with the supplementary cash allowance. There should be a better adjustment there. I have drawn the attention of officials in the widows' and orphans' branch to that anomaly. That is one of the points I wish to make in regard to this type of pension. All these matters should be investigated with the object of finding a remedy and having them simplified.

Then there is the point of no cognisance being taken by a pensions officer of the money that is paid out by an unfortunate man with a family who has to rent a house, lease it or pay highly for it in some way or another. No allowance is made in that respect and it is not taken into account in the assessment of means. That matter should be attended to. I am aware that things such as gifts and other perquisites that might be available to these poor people will no longer be regarded as means. This is a very important point. Take a worker in a small town or village who rents his place or otherwise pays a high figure for it. Up to now, there was no credit given for that; he got no abatement in the means assessment.

I trust the Minister will give some hope to people who have done their utmost to compel their children to marry. Heretofore, a man in that position was penalised because his son or somebody else in the family did not get married. That man could not get a pension even if he was 90 years old. There are dozens of these cases in my county and the pensions officer time and again has ruled them out. Under the existing legislation the Department has to acquiesce. I hope there will be a broader interpretation in relation to this aspect. I regard this matter of the means test as highly important. I do not know whether the Ceann Comhairle will allow me to refer to one matter.

The Deputy should never give notice of his intention to wander.

I would like to refer to the investigation officers who carry out the means test in old I.R.A. pension cases. The same officers as are now working in the Minister's Department are employed reporting on men who apply for a disability allowance, a special allowance.

They are not in this measure and the best submission for the Deputy is to recognise that they are not covered by it.

When these investigation officers were called in to carry out the means test, they disrupted all the intentions of the Minister for Defence.

I think the Deputy did not hear me.

I bow to the ruling of the Chair. I hope the Minister will give me an assurance that, in so far as the means test is concerned, there will be a fair interpretation of his intentions. I know that there will be a big advance under this measure and that there will be a big improvement, but I am afraid that unless great care is taken all this work will be nullified. We have pensions officers in Killarney and Cahirciveen who have gone out of their way entirely. They have made it almost impossible for the average man or woman to qualify. They regard the people as dishonest, and that is a wrong approach. The pensions officers regard every poor man and woman applying for a pension as being out to deceive them, and that is the wrong approach. They regard them, if you like, as criminals, people with criminal intent, out to cheat the State cut of money. I suggest the Oireachtas never instructed these officers to treat the people in this fashion. I made a statement on the Minister's Estimate the other evening and I regret to say that I found a man in his Department just of the same mentality. That man has a Civil Service mind.

The Minister is responsible to the House, not the civil servant.

I do not like to refer to this, but any applicant with land is finished with that man, no matter whether he has five, ten or 40 acres. While that man is there, such a person will get no pension.

I thought I had restored cordial relations between yourself and that official?

I regret that that is not so. I went in with great confidence yesterday thinking that everything was all right and that there would be a changed atmosphere, but I found things worse than ever. I am grateful to the Minister for what he has done about it. I hope that the Minister will take cognisance of the position in County Kerry.

I gather the Minister is no more pleased with the amount offered to pensioners than I am. I can well appreciate his difficulties seeing that what he has done will cost £2,500,000.

I shall refer first of all to the old age pensioners. There are quite a number of men retiring after long years of service with one firm or another and they are receiving 6/- to 10/- a week. Under this Bill, they will get 23/6 per week. There are many other old age pensioners who went out and who have got nothing at all, who never have been in receipt of an income, and at the moment they have 7/6. Many pensioners when they reach 70 find their national health benefit is cut off and these men would under this Bill get 17/6. I thought it was time that men like that would be brought to £1 a week. I am referring to men who have been working under county councils on the roads and men working in places where they have no close relationship with their employers. When they reach 68 nobody wants them and they are receiving unemployment or national health benefit. When they reach 70 they have no income whatever and now they will receive only 17/6 as a maximum, whereas the man who has 6/- or 7/6 a week will receive 23/6. I hope the Minister will improve the conditions in that respect. I think if it is possible at all that he should also increase the rate of sickness benefit under the national health insurance scheme. I notice that there is to be some increase in the contributions and I think it would not require legislation to increase the amount of benefit. Everybody will admit that when a man is knocked up through illness, it is very difficult for him to exist at all on a maximum allowance of 22/6 a week.

There are a few points which the Minister has probably overlooked to which I should like to direct his attention. Firstly, if a man becomes unemployed and wishes to get unemployment assistance he has to sign for six days at the labour exchange before he receives any benefit at all. I suggest that when a man is unemployed he should receive benefit within the first week of unemployment. It is very unfair that a man should have to wait for six days before he receives anything at all. These people have certain human rights and they should not be deprived of any means of subsistence during what is comparatively a long period for them. Similarly a man who falls ill receives only three days' benefit for the first week. I say that a man who has to sign at the labour exchange to show that he is unemployed or the man who falls ill and applies for sickness benefit should be paid benefit from the first day of illness or from the first day of unemployment.

There is one other matter to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention. There are a number of women workers employed in vocational schools as cleaners. They do not come under the Unemployment Assistance Act and if they did they would get no benefit because of the amount of their earnings during the year. These women cleaners are often out of work for periods of six, seven or eight weeks and they get no benefit from any source and they cannot get unemployment assistance because they would not be insured under this scheme. We have a number of girls in Cork who are employed as women cleaners in these schools who are thrown out of work whilst the teachers are on holidays and, of course, drawing their salaries. It is rather strange that women cleaners compulsorily unemployed for eight weeks should receive no benefit from anybody whatsoever.

I am glad that the Minister has done something in regard to the position of men who lose their employment through, as it is alleged, some fault of their own, but I am entirely in disagreement with the strong words used last night by Deputy O'Higgins about the danger of abuses in connection with men who draw unemployment benefit. I am sure that nobody would stand for a man drawing unemployment benefit unless he was legally entitled to it. Deputy Lemass also spoke rather strongly on the question of a man who loses a job through his own fault.

I did not support him on that.

I know you did not. Deputy Lemass stressed the point that the Minister was going too far in reducing the penalty on a man who loses employment through his own fault or who gives up his job voluntarily. I am quite satisfied that Deputy Lemass was serious enough in the point he made but if he had any experience of dealing with workers in employment, or if he was ever a member of a Court of Referees, as some of us have been, he would find how hopeless is the position of the court sometimes in trying to meet the wishes of the men involved. You may have the case of a man who has a row with a foreman or the case of a man who finds the work too hard and who in consequence loses his job and, because of that, he is disqualified to receive benefit for a very long period. As one who has been a member of a Court of Referees, and who knows the humane attitude of the chairman towards workers generally, I can testify that these courts are often placed in a very difficult position in trying to carry out the law. I am glad that the Minister has modified the law in that respect.

I think it is altogether too bad that a man who loses his employment should be disqualified from benefit for a period of three months. We have to remember that there are a number of men casually employed who have frequently to resort to the labour exchange for the means of subsistence. We are all aware that casual employment creates casual habits and we should not be too serious in our strictures on poor men like that who are victims of the system under which they live. We should not be ready to brand them as criminals. I am glad the Minister has shown a decent humane attitude in that regard. I think that if the Court of Referees are given sufficient power to exercise their common sense in individual cases the system will work all the better. Nobody would stand for men drawing money from the labour exchange on fraudulent grounds and we will support anybody who tries to check it but I think you will find very few instances where that is taking place. I think if there is one place above all others where we should exhibit some respect for human rights it is in the administration of the labour exchanges. Every man who goes into the labour exchange has to fight with himself and he has to fight against the system and in consequence he is embittered against the system. I should not like that anybody should take the attitude that these men are a class apart and that they are trying to impose themselves on the community. I would be rather inclined to say that they should have the sympathy of everybody because they are the victims of a system.

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister also to the fact that I understand there is a clause in the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act under which a widow whose husband dies within 12 months after they have been married is not entitled to get a widow's pension. I should like the Minister to look into that matter because I have a specific case where a couple got married and the man died within a short period. That woman has not yet succeeded in getting a widow's pension because it is stated that she was not long enough married.

We believe this Bill is only an instalment of greater things to come. I grant that the Minister has done very well in producing these improvements in social services within such a very short time. The increases granted will be of some help at least to many old age pensioners. I know that the Minister is no more satisfied in his mind than I am with the present rates but I would say to those people who are criticising him, and criticising those who are support ing him, that when the bigger scheme comes along I hope that we will not have our minds centred on a pension of 17/6. If we are to do justice to old age pensioners, to widows and orphans and to the blind people, we will have to do much more than talking about them. It will be necessary to consider the social organisation under which we live from the ground up. I hope that when the larger scheme comes before us there will be unanimous opinion that old age pensioners and widows and orphans should receive much more from the State than they have been receiving up to now.

There is not much time left to make a contribution to this debate, but there are, however, a few points that I would like to put before the House in connection with this Bill. I am not going to refer to the plethora of promises that were made by members of the inter-Party Government and their followers during the last election and before it, because reference has been made to them already This Bill has got a mixed reception in the House, but in so far as it makes any improvement in catering for the most helpless section of our community, I welcome it. I am afraid, however, that it falls very much short of the anticipations of the people in the country. The greatest amount that can be paid under this Bill to old age pensioners is 17/6 a week, and if we take the value of money into consideration at the present time, 17/6 is not a great lot.

It is a bit more than 12/6.

If we accept the opinion of the present Minister for Finance who told us a year ago that the £ was only worth 10/-, 17/6 is only worth 8/9 as compared with its value in 1939.

You brought it down to 10/-.

It was not we who brought it down.

You were in office all that time.

The Deputy knows very well that it was world conditions that brought it down and that we had no control over it. Accepting the opinion of the Minister for Finance the greatest amount that can be got under this Bill for old age and blind pensioners is 8/9.

What is 12/6 worth according to that formula?

I have not very much time at my disposal. If there were more time I would be more inclined to take notice of the Minister interruptions.

The Minister will have an hour to speak later.

I cannot understand why the Minister rushed in with this Bill at all when he has told us that we are to expect a more comprehensive measure late on in the year. If we could wait for that comprehensive measure, we would have more time to discuss the various aspects of the question. Indeed if the Minister wanted, he could have made a Government Order increasing the old-age pensions and so on to a certain figure because a Government Order is not without precedent. Quite recently when the present Government wanted to raise money by taxation, they did it by a Government Order increasing the postage rates without having recourse to the Dáil and they could do the same in a case like this, coming in afterwards with what may be described as a "comprehensive measure of social welfare".

I was amazed to hear Deputy O'Leary—he is here in the House now —telling us that Fianna Fáil did nothing for the people who are supposed to benefit under this measure. It was Fianna Fáil who blazed the trail regarding social legislation. Widows' and orphans' pensions and children's allowances were unheard of before Fianna Fáil came into office and unemployment assistance was introduced during their term of office. It could not be expected that these benefits would remain static; rather would it be expected that they would be improved and increased as the years went on, especially if they were to keep in line with the increased cost of living As everybody knows, the cost of living to-day is very much higher than it was before the present Government came into office. When Deputy O'Leary, therefore, said that Fianna Fáil did nothing for old age pensioners, widows and orphans and recipients of unemployment assistance and so on, he was not telling the truth and he knew it.

Another matter I would like to refer to before I sit down is the present attitude of those in the Department of Social Welfare re old age pensions. I am very glad that Deputy Flynn raised the question of the administration of the Old Age Pensions Acts under the present régime because it has been my experience that it is now much more difficult for anybody to get the old age pension than it was six months or a year ago. That is so despite the fact that these people told the people up and down the country of the great benefits they were going to confer on the aged. I find that there is even a bias against claimants from rural areas, so no matter what measure is brought in here, no matter how excellent its provisions may be—and I do not say that the provisions of this Bill are excellent—a lot would depend on the administration of the measure when it became law. As I said, I, in common with Deputy Flynn, find it very difficult to get an old age pension for any rural person who is in possession of land, even of a small parcel of land.

With regard to what the Fianna Fáil Government did for the improvement of the social services, they increased the cost of the social services from £4,000,000 to £13,000,000. That was a fairly good advance by Fianna Fáil and I think that if the present Administration keep in line with that, if they are as progressive as that in their dealing with the sections of the community who are supposed to benefit under this measure, they will not be doing too badly at all.

I think it was Deputy Cowan who mentioned that £2,500,000 a year was to come out of the Exchequer for the implementation of this measure. Of course that is not the case. Anybody reading the Bill must surely come to the conclusion that that is not so and that the most of £1,000,000 will be got from increased contributions from the subscribers to and recipients of national health insurance benefits, unemployment insurance benefits and contributory widows' pensions. It is wrong to say that the sum of £2,500,000 is to come out of the Exchequer as it is no such thing.

I do not think that I should delay the House any longer since there is an agreement to let the Minister in at 9 o'clock and I suppose that agreement stands. We will have another opportunity of discussing these things I suppose.

So many matters have been raised on this Bill, during the course of the past two Parliamentary days' discussion, that it may not be practicable to deal with all the matters this evening. Subject, however, to time being available, I shall endeavour to cover all the points raised. On the whole, this Bill has had a very good reception from every side of the House except the Fianna Fáil side where the Deputies frankly confessed that they were disappointed with the Bill. I know they are disappointed with the Bill. I know they are politically bilious with the Bill. They are disappointed because they know perfectly well that this Bill debunks all the nonsense talked on Fianna Fáil platforms throughout the country during the last election, when they said that doom and disaster would overtake the country if we had not a Fianna Fáil Government in office.

It debunks your election promises.

Every single promise we made with regard to social services we will redeem before we go out of office. I know that this Bill has been received with much disappointment by the Fianna Fáil Party. The prophecy of doom and disaster did not materialise. The old age pensioner now realises that he or she will get a better deal from this Government. This is the first instalment of many good deals which they will get from this Government. The widows and orphans throughout the country who are receiving non-contributory pensions will get under this Bill much more than they would have got under Fianna Fáil legislation. It is because of that fact that Fianna Fáil Deputies are disappointed with this Bill.

Deputy Beegan complained that the Bill did not go far enough and had disappointed him. Let him go around the County Mayo and the other rural areas and tell the people that under the Fianna Fáil non-contributory widows' and orphans' pensions scheme a widow with two children is getting basic pension and cash supplement totalling 12/6 and that she is going to get 22/- under this Bill. Let him look for a widow with four children who is now getting 17/6 non-contributory pension and tell that widow that, when this Bill is enacted into law and the necessary arrangements are made to bring it into operation, she is going to get 30/- per week—12/6 increase on a 17/6 pension. He will not find it too easy to convince that widow that this is a disappointing Bill. He will find it a pretty tough job to sell "doom and disaster" to her when she knows that she is going to get 30/- non-contributory widows' pension instead of 17/6 which she is getting at present. Let him look for the widow with five children who is now getting 20/- and who will get 34/- when the scheme comes into operation.

I hope Deputies opposite will make representations to have these increased rates of pension paid. Whatever disappointment there may be on the opposite benches about this Bill, there will be no disappointment in the homes of the recipients who, under this Bill, will get £2,500,000 more in a year in respect of social services than they are getting to-day. A sum of £1,500,000 will go into the homes of the old age pensioners and another £1,000,000 will go into the homes of the widows and orphans. Is it any wonder these Deputies are disappointed? I would be disappointed if I were sitting over there. I know their natural sorrow in this matter. I know what human feelings and impulses are and how difficult it will be to get people up on the bandwagon when this Bill is in operation, and how difficult it will be for the Party opposite to tell the people that this is a bad Government which gives an additional £2,500,000 per year to old age pensioners and widows and orphans. They should cheer up. There is no reason why the Party opposite should be sorrowful over the Bill. The country does not in any way share their sorrow or their disappointment. Even though they may be politically dispirited amongst themselves, the widows and orphans and the old age pensioners, when this Bill is law, will cheer them up and remove the doom and the bleakness which surrounds Fianna Fáil. I am telling Deputy Burke something which should remove the bleakness which apparently surrounds himself and his colleagues.

I am very interested, really.

Human nature being what it is, I suppose it is too much to expect that this Bill will be received enthusiastically by the opponents of the Government. But, allowing for our political differences, I think that, on the whole, the Bill has had what might be regarded as a tolerably good reception, even from reasonably-minded opponents of the Government. Even Deputy Corry, who is not famed for admiration of the Government, this evening was constrained to say that on the whole it was a good Bill. He said he was glad that it had been introduced and that in fact one section of it would do for his constituents what he could not get his own Government to do for the past ten years. He praised that section of the Bill. He said that it would mean more money for the workers and would take something off the rates of Cork. Being an astute politician, he thought it was a good advance, he, no doubt, claiming complete and absolute responsibility for its enactment in this Bill, when he could not get a move on his own Government.

I do not say that this is an ideal Bill. I never claimed it to be an ideal Bill. But, with all its shortcomings and any blemishes that it has, I say it is a good Bill and that it represents a very substantial advance on our existing social legislation. I sympathise with the claims which have been made from all sides of the House that there should be further improvements in the Bill. I should like to see further improvements in the Bill. The views that I held about social legislation when I sat on the benches opposite are the same views that I hold to-day about our ultimate destination in the matter of social services. We must recognise that social services are vital for the maintenance of the standard of life of our people and that they are particularly necessary in a country such as ours, because our people do not earn standards of remuneration which would enable them to provide for the hazards of life in all spheres. They are not able to put sufficient money away for the rainy day: (1) because their incomes are not sufficient; and (2) because there are too many economic and fiscal rainy days. In circumstances of that kind, the only thing you can do is to ensure the population against hazards by getting something from the greater number so that you may concentrate upon relieving the smaller number when adversity overtakes them.

I hope we shall develop our social services. So long as I have any responsibility for guiding them, I shall do my best and, as I said, if this Government runs its full term of office, all the promises we made in respect of social services will be redeemed. I make no apology for saying that, and I expect everybody who wants to see adequate social standards provided for our people to rally behind the Government in an effort to give our people the best possible code of social legislation. I do not deny that if this Bill were fashioned by my own hands in a different set of circumstances it would be more generous than it is. Every Minister in every Government finds that the things which he wants to do and would like to do, he possibly cannot do at one time. My position in this whole matter is that I should like to go very much further. Next year I think we shall go further and the year after that I hope we shall go further again. In that way I hope that we shall be able to build up, brick upon brick, a decent standard of social services for our people.

My position in this matter was that I had £2,500,000 for additional social services. The problem was how best to apply that £2,500,000. I decided to apply it in the direction (1) of modifying the means test as the inter-Party Government was committed; secondly to increase old age pensions and thirdly to remove the discrimination against old age pensioners in the rural areas. The Bill does that. In respect of widows' and orphans' pensions, non-contributory, we have stepped up these pensions very considerably. On some of the ranges the increase is 75 per cent. over their existing consolidated pension. In other words, take the basic pension, put the cash supplements on to it, regard that as a consolidated figure and we have put a 75 per cent. increase on that in some cases. I am sorry if it annoys some of the Deputies opposite but no matter who it annoys it has been done and it will be done and the widows and orphans will be thankful for it.

Deputy Corry, now that he has attained a new standard of freedom in opposition, and Deputy Beegan spoke about the means test. They thought that the means test ought to be abolished. Some Deputies said that it should be modified and others said that it should be abolished. I cannot understand the mental set-up of Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party who, having been 16 years in office and having had a clear majority in this House and full powers to abolish the means test, declined to do so and now come in here sorrowfully shedding tears that it is not abolished. Is that not downright hypocrisy? It may, perhaps, be called political hypocrisy, and to that extent it may not be as serious as normal hypocrisy.

Did the Minister not promise to abolish the means test?

I shall refer to that in a moment. Within less than six months of being out of office Deputy Beegan, Deputy Corry and other Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party shed tears that the means test had not been abolished—they having had, for 16 years, all the power they required to abolish it. Not only would they not abolish it but they would not even modify it. In October last a motion was introduced into this House designed to secure a modification of the means test. The then Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Dr. Ryan, said that it would cost £500,000—only £500,000—this is costing £2,500,000. The wordy political braves who are now on the Opposition Benches all trekked into the Division Lobby to vote against a modification of the means test which would cost £500,000. Last year the Fianna Fáil Deputies would not vote £500,000 for the modification of the means test——

We gave £2,500,000 last year.

——yet they are now suffering from an outbreak of artificial sorrow because we are spending £2,500,000 in an endeavour to improve the social services of the country. I think you can chance that sort of stuff at the crossroads but you have to meet the truth here because the documents are available for the refutation of these contentions. I would advise the Deputies on the opposite side of the House to drop these tactics because though they may work at the crossroads they will not work here where people know the facts. I think it is a bit late in the day for Deputies who had every opportunity to modify the means test while their Government was in office to come in here now and lament the fact that we have not, after five months of office, abolished the means test. The abolition of the means test at present would cost approximately a further £3,000,000 and we have not got another £3,000,000 at the moment to enable us to do so. In connection with that policy we were confronted with the following problem. We could have utilised some of the money for a further modification of the means test in which case we would have let in more widows to qualify for the existing rate of pension but would have given nothing additional to the widows who now have it and whose means are less than those of the potential claimants who would come in under a modification of the existing means test. I asked myself if I would modify the means test only and let people who have more means than existing pensioners in to claim pensions or would I use the money to give an increase to existing old age pensioners with a reasonable modification of the means test to let in those who are at present above the maximum limit which would qualify them for a pension. We could have modified the means test in such a way as to let people with £3 and £4 in to claim the old age pension but was it better to give increases to those with only 5/-a week than to give 12/6 or 15/- to somebody with £3 or £4 or even £5 a week. I thought it was better to give most money where the money was most urgently needed, and it was on that basis that this approach to the problem was decided upon. However, this is not the last day of the Irish race. It is not the last day on which this House will meet.

Please God.

This will by no means be the last Social Welfare Bill that will be introduced into this House. I am sure that there are many more such Bills to come—all of which will, I hope, aim at raising the standard of our social services. No Bill, in a healthy independent community, in the sphere of social services can ever be a final Bill. Whether demand for social services will be continued by national developments and by international developments, by new concepts of human value, by movements in other countries in the direction of improved social services, every Dáil that sits from now on till the end of time will probably be confronted at one time or another with social services Bills, all designed, I hope, to lift up more and more the standard of life of the weaker sections of the community. This is one of the first such Bills this Government has been privileged to introduce. I hope it will introduce many more and I hope that we will always have an intelligent and socially conscious population that will from time to time insist on the claims of the weak and the helpless getting attention from the Legislature. In the meantime, Deputies opposite may console themselves by the fact that approximately 130,000 existing old age pensioners will have their pensions increased to 17/6 a week and that there will be increases for others not at present in the enjoyment of the maximum rate of old age pensions.

Deputy Lemass and Deputy Dr. Ryan referred at some length to the question of the insurance principle. Deputy Lemass put up various Aunt Sallys and regaled himself in knocking them down, much to his own delight. He told us of his suspicions of the insurance principle. He brought us into the domain in which there was no such thing as the insurance principle in social welfare schemes but where, instead, the State taxed everybody and then, out of the kitty thus created, money was made available to do certain things in the sphere of social welfare. He did not tell us whether he was in favour of it or not. He merely posed the question and played with it for a quarter of an hour. He did not, however, tell us whether he was in favour of an abandonment of the insurance principle and a change to a scheme by which, under structure of the existing Acts, the State raises all the money by general taxation and distributes that in the various forms of social insurance. I would have liked to have heard Deputy Lemass develop that but Deputy Lemass knew, of course, that he was getting into deep water. He was just satisfied to create suspicion about what was being done in this Bill but he carefully avoided indicating on which side of the line he was finally going to stand. I confess quite frankly that I see many of these things through my long experience and long contact with the working-class movement and I think I am not a bad barometer in that respect of the views of the working-class people in a matter of this kind. In very many countries, and certainly in those countries where social insurance has been brought to a high level, there is a pronounced bias towards the insurance principle; firstly, because it gives the worker a statutory right to whatever benefits are provided in the legislation designed to ensure those benefits to him; secondly, it prevents his rights in that respect being made a political plaything; and, thirdly, because there has always been a general recognition that wherever a scheme has departed from the principle of insurance benefits have, in the main, been pauperised rates of benefits. Is there anything in what we know of this country of ours—do not let us move outside it—that induces us to abandon the insurance principle in respect of social welfare schemes? Old age pensions were paid entirely by the State and not on an insurance basis. What has been the long miserable story? In 1908 5/- per week raised to 10/- during a world holocaust in 1916. Ten shillings the old age pensioner was getting in the rural areas in 1916. Thirty-two years after in 1948 he was getting 12/6. That is a State scheme unsupported by contributions of any kind. Does anybody think that is an ideal scheme? Is that the kind of scheme that commends itself to us? Is that the kind of State subsidised scheme that Deputy Lemass offers to us when we had available to us, through the insurance basis, a means of bringing into operation a much better and more widespread scheme of old age pensions, paying better benefits than are paid to-day and than will be paid under this Bill, with pensions that make some approximation to maintaining a tolerable standard of living for old age pensioners?

Children's allowances are trotted out to us. Does anybody want to worship at the shrine of children's allowances in this country? Under a State scheme we have 2/6 for the third child. Does that deserve our admiration? I do not think it does. As a matter of fact I think if the children's allowances scheme had got the consideration it deserved, the considerable sum of money used in it might have been better employed and might have been used much more effectively than it is used to build up low rates of wages in respect of persons who had large families to maintain, instead of being distributed as it is without bringing us, in my opinion, the best return we could get for the administration of the Children's Allowances Act. Deputy MacEntee travelled along similar lines this evening. He, of course, is the most unreliable guide of all in anything relating to judgment based on economic sanity. So far as the workers are concerned I am convinced that the maintenance of the insurance principle is in the long run the best thing for the workers. I can get abundant evidence supporting that viewpoint from countries which are insurance conscious in matters of this kind. I think, therefore, that the effort to get away from an insurance basis in this matter is just another political subterfuge to try to draw a red herring across the track of what is known to be in the hearts of the Opposition—a good Bill from the point of view of those who will benefit under the scheme and a bad political Bill from the point of view of Fianna Fáil.

One would imagine that this scheme of cash supplements was designed by the Fianna Fáil Party for the special pleasure and gratification of the people concerned. What are the facts? During the emergency when wages were pegged down—we all know how viciously they were pegged—with the rising cost of living, the Government felt compelled to give food vouchers to persons in receipt of certain social welfare benefits. Obviously those people could not be asked to pay additional contributions for these food vouchers. The food voucher itself was detestable enough but to ask them to pay additional contributions for the food vouchers was obviously politically impossible. They were not consequently asked to pay. Then it was realised, as this official file here shows, that it was better to put them on a cash basis; that the food vouchers were not popular. It is mentioned here that people never believed they were getting anything better when they were getting a cash payment plus a food voucher. One Minister goes on record here as saying that a person with an old age pension of 10/- and a food voucher still felt he was only getting 10/-; and this scheme was initiated, therefore, for the purpose of taking back the food voucher and giving an extra 2/6 in the belief that they thought they had more with 12/6 than they had with 10/- and a food voucher. That is how we arrived at the cash supplement scheme. This file makes it clear that it was purely a temporary measure, the intention being to ultimately get away from it and back to the normal position. I have no doubt in the world that if Fianna Fáil had remained in office we would have gone back in the ordinary way to the insurance principle in this matter—namely, where the increased rates of benefit would be borne by the relative funds and these funds would be supported by increased contributions from the workers, the employers, and the State in order to enable them to pay higher rates of benefit.

What we are doing under this Bill is we are getting back on the insurance basis. We are amalgamating a temporary addition now to the basic pensions or basic allowances. We are producing a consolidated rate of benefit which will be supported by higher contributions of which the worker will pay a part, but the employer and the State will also pay their parts and the new benefit will not be a cash supplement nor will it be a temporary benefit. It will be a permanent benefit enshrined in legislation and will not be liable to any of the fiscal or budgetary changes with which Governments are not wholly unacquainted. I think, therefore, that what we have done in this matter is a sensible approach to a problem made difficult because of the expediency basis on which that problem has been handled up to the present.

Deputy Dr. Ryan also discussed the means test, but I think what I have said on that subject sufficiently covers whatever comments he made. He referred to the delay in bringing this Bill into operation. I have already told the House the factors which prevented this Bill being made operative as from a date earlier than 7th January next. When this Bill was being prepared and when the machinery which would be necessary to create it was being discussed, I sent for the higher officials of my Department and told them the lines on which this Bill would proceed, on the assumption of Government approval for it. I told them what would be necessary, on the assumption that the Bill would be sanctioned, in the way of producing additional books and so forth. I asked them what would be the earliest possible date when they could get this machinery under way and they told me it would take at least six months, and then it would be extremely hard work. In fact, on further examination I thought it would not be possible to get it under way even within the six months and it was only by pressing the officials and suggesting the adoption of certain shortcut devices that we were able to get to the position in which we could say with certainty that this Bill would be operative as from 7th January next.

I told the House yesterday of the variety of things that have to be dealt with when this Bill has been passed by the Oireachtas. The problem we are up against this year is a very much bigger one in the matter of increasing pensions than was the problem that confronted the previous Minister last year. Those who had to deal with the problem both last year and this year are perfectly satisfied that last year's was only a fragment of the much bigger problem that faces us this year. I would have liked to have made this Bill effective as from an earlier date, but that was not practicable. I saw no value in promising that we would have the Bill by a certain date when I knew there was no chance of having it by that date. I thought it better to be honest and to tell the people the truth. I am saying it publicly now so that they will understand and I am saying it, reinforced with the expert information which I have had from my officials that it would be physically impossible to bring the Bill into operation at an earlier date. If it had been possible the Bill would have been brought into operation earlier. I felt it was better to be honest and candid and to put down a definite date rather than adopt a shilly-shally, carrot-like attitude and lead the people to believe they would get the Bill at a time when we knew it was not possible to give it to them. That is the simple explanation why the Bill cannot be made operative before 7th January.

Deputy Keyes referred to workers on the verge of cities and towns who, he said, are disqualified from receiving unemployment assistance during the currency of the Employment Period Orders because they resided in rural areas. He suggested we might draw a ring around a town or city, a ring between the rural areas and the city or town border and say, in respect of anybody who lived in that circle, which would be a mile from the circumference to the boundary, that that person should be regarded as a city worker. I do not think that that would solve the problem. If you start drawing circles a mile out from the city border or the town border you will get somebody one and a quarter miles from the boundary and you will be no better off. You may succeed in mollifying a certain number, but you intensify the anger of those outside the mile circle.

I am not unconscious of the difficulties to which Deputy Keyes adverts, and I will be willing to look sympathetically at any proposal which will enable me to classify in a reasonable and sensible way any person living outside a city or town who does not follow agriculture as a craft or in any ancillary way. But if you come to say that tradesmen are not within the scope of this, you have to find out what a tradesman is. I have looked up references to see if anybody could describe a tradesman and nobody has attempted to do it. One course would be to catalogue every single person who does anything other than agricultural work and say that that person is not an agricultural worker. If Deputy Keyes, with his fertile mind, can give me any convenient kind of description, I shall be willing to examine it with very considerable sympathy.

I was only adverting to the registration in the labour exchange —the manner in which men are registered there. For instance, if they register a man as an electrician, they have no right to make him an agricultural labourer on the application of the Employment Period Order. His registration ought to stand.

If the Deputy will let me have his views in detail, I shall look into the matter sympathetically, because I think I share a good deal of his views in that respect. Deputy Keyes also referred to blind pensions, and here it is desirable to note that we have broken a considerable amount of new ground in respect of blind persons. We are now providing blind pensions at 21 years, whereas at present they are not provided until the person is 30 years. At present a blind person with an income of approximately £39 from any source is prevented from receiving a blind pension. Not only do we propose to give a blind pension of 17/6 per week, but we will give it at 21 years and we say to the applicant: "You may earn £52 a year and we will disregard it; your wife may earn £39 a year and we will disregard it, or you can earn it. If you have a wife and two children we will disregard £26 per annum in respect of each of the children." If you tot up the figures applying to a blind man with a wife and two children you will find that under this Bill he can earn £143 per annum and still get the full blind pension. Under the present Act, if he earns £39 a year he gets nothing at all. We qualify him for the blind pension at 21 years instead of 30 years. I think that is a substantial improvement. No Government in this country has yet attempted it, and it has been done in a relatively short time.

Deputy MacEntee, with his characteristic inaccuracy, purported to interpret Section 12. I think when the Deputy tries to interpret Bills, particularly one of a character he previously administered, he ought to get a legal adviser as an assessor. In Section 12 we give effect to the exemptions to which I have just adverted. We say that certain things will not count. Earnings of that kind will not count and we go on to define "earnings". We say that "earnings" include "wages, profit from any form of self-employment in a trade or business (including farming), unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance". Deputy MacEntee, in his usual lop-sided way for reading things, says that that means that we are regarding these things as earnings. What it means is this. We say you can get a pension, if you have a wife and two children and if you have earnings to a total of £143, earnings which may come from any of these sources. If they do we disregard them. That is the purpose and the legal meaning of that section. Deputy MacEntee says that it means the opposite. So much for his veracity and his attempt to interpret Bills. Anybody who reads Deputy MacEntee's speech in the Official Report dealing with Section 12 will remember this, that the truth is exactly the opposite to what he says. He has completely misinterpreted the section and obviously does not know what it means. It is not fair to insult people's intelligence by purporting to interpret a section when one is clearly not qualified to do so.

Deputy Sir John Esmonde referred to the means test in respect of small farmers. Here there seems to be a certain rather widespread misunderstanding of the position. Some Deputies talked as if the means test was operated by regulations made by the Government and approved by the Department of Finance and that the whole purpose of the scheme was to cheat the potential pensioner out of the old age pension to which he was genuinely entitled. Let me say, in the first place, that there have been no instructions issued by this Government in any way to tighten up the means test. No instructions of any kind have been issued to investigation officers to tighten up the means test. My personal desire is that the investigation officer should always give the applicant the benefit of any doubt that exists. Deputy Beegan feared that although we were giving persons an increase in their pensions, that would be raked off by an intensification of the means test. Let me say that the revision of pensions under this new Bill will be based on existing assessments in every case. There will be no fresh instructions issued. The existing assessments which are carrying full pensions will be the basis for reassessment under this Bill. No effort of any kind whatever will be made to tighten up the administration of the means test under this Bill and I would not countenance that for two seconds.

It is true of course that the means test causes certain difficulty in some cases. One finds that even making the broadest possible allowance for administering the means test, nevertheless anomalies and perplexities may take place. I do not say that the present basis is a scientific measure for establishing the means of an applicant. It has many blemishes and under any kind of reasonable examination, it would probably be revealed that the old scheme is outmoded and is in need of the impregnation of more modern thought as to what can be reasonably classified as means. I do not think it is possible to do anything in this Bill to get any clarification in that respect but I shall undertake to examine the whole question broadly in the light of the proposed comprehensive scheme to see whether it is possible to introduce a more simplified means test on a basis which will enable persons clearly to understand the basis on which their means are calculated.

Perhaps the Minister will allow me to ask him a question. The greatest hardship which I see in this connection is that caused to a labouring man who works until he is 70 or 75 years of age. If he applies for the old age pension, his means are estimated according to the amount which he received for his last year's work. The same applies to road workers and other people in receipt of very small salaries. I wonder would the Minister see whether something could not be done for that type of worker.

I do not think the Deputy is correct in his statement. I think Deputy Corry spoke on the same lines but I do not think the Deputy's information in that respect is right. I do not want unconsciously to do the Deputy any wrong but I think it was Deputy Corry suggested that a person could not get the old age pension until six months after he reached the age of 70. There is no statutory deferment of the old age pension for six months or for any other period when a road worker or any other worker attains the age of 70.

Mr. Burke

I may say that I have been on several pension committees and we have been up against that.

Here is the position. For the purpose of ascertaining what a man is going to get when he is 70 years of age until he is 71, you look at what he got from the time he was 69 until he reached 70. You assume that that man will have the same income for the next year unless there is evidence that he will not receive that income. It is clear beyond doubt that if the man does not intend to resume his county council employment, that if he has reached a stage when he is no longer employable, that man should qualify there and then for the old age pension.

Mr. Burke

But they do not.

I suggest that the quickest possible way of dealing with that, so as to put it beyond all doubt, would be to get a certificate from the employer that the man is no longer employable under the county council or in any other capacity. There is no statutory disqualification for six months. Bear in mind that this might occur. A person who reaches 70 years of age can draw benefit at the employment exchange and he finds that that benefit is higher than the old age pension. He can draw that for 156 days at the labour exchange. Very often he goes to the employment exchange and draws his benefit for six months. When it ceases, he puts in his application for an old age pension. He hopes to get his old age pension and wonders why he was not getting it from the age of 70 although, statutorily, he cannot draw insurance benefit and the old age pension at the same time.

The agricultural worker could not draw unemployment insurance benefit.

I am talking of Deputy Corry's road worker. I have said sufficient to show that there is no statutory disqualification when a person reaches 70 years of age.

In that case I suggest to the Minister that he should round up his Department's officers.

I do not think there is any need to.

I am afraid there is.

In case there is any doubt, we shall have the matter investigated.

We shall do the rounding up for you.

You did not do much rounding up when you were in office.

We shall do it now and I did it then also.

Deputy Dunne raised the question of marriage allowances and maternity allowances in connection with national health insurance. This Bill deals only with national health insurance in a limited way—the consolidation of cash supplements with benefits. This whole question of the present scale of maternity benefits and marriage allowances will be considered in connection with the comprehensive Bill and I can assure Deputy Dunne his point of view in the matter will not be overlooked.

Deputy Dunne also raised the question of the wages and conditions of service of the staff employed by the National Health Insurance Society. I am sure the society want to extend reasonable conditions of employment to their staff. If there is a matter to be discussed I think it should be discussed between the organisation representing the staff of the society and the committee of management. The committee of management is an autonomous body. It has full freedom to act on its own in a matter of that kind. I do not want to be forced into the position of issuing orders and directions to the committee of management. It is a democratically elected body and it should be allowed to do its work until it is shown that it cannot do its work. The committee of management ought to get a fair chance. I do not think it is reasonable to hold the whip over it and say: "You have got to do this" or "You are expected to do this" without giving it a chance of considering the merits or demerits of any claim presented. I would prefer that the society would have an opportunity of considering representations in the same way as any other employer would have an opportunity of considering representations made to him on a similar subject.

Deputy Dunne also raised the question of the extension of unemployment insurance to agricultural workers. That is a big problem and it is one which has been considered in connection with the comprehensive scheme.

I am anxious to bring agricultural workers within the scope of this scheme but there are certain difficulties in regard to the matter. They will be adverted to in the White Paper which will be issued shortly and you will all have the opportunity of bringing your genius to bear on the solution of that problem.

Deputy Lemass talked about this Bill constituting attacks on workers and employers. As I explained, this Bill is going back to the insurance principle in respect of the Acts that have originally been passed on the principle of insurance. It is not a tax on the workers in any way, any more than the original Acts imposed a tax on them. It recognises that the original Acts were constituted on the basis of employers, employees and the State putting money in a kitty and on the basis of what is in the kitty you can pay certain rates of benefit. We are not doing anything more than was originally intended by creating a fund out of which benefits can be paid. In this way we are giving to the workers guaranteed, unquestionable, legal rights to a consolidated rate of benefit and a cash supplement instead of having the position regarding the benefits the subject of political or fiscal contest in this House. There is no tax on workers. What they put in they get back in the form of benefit and that is not a tax. It is certainly different from the tax imposed on them by the Fianna Fáil Supplementary Budget on cigarettes, beer and cinema seats. There was no wailing then for the tax on the workers. They should be glad to pay that kind of tax, but now, of course, their friends who imposed that additional taxation on them last October are shedding tears over this small additional contribution which will go to make available a pool out of which they will draw benefits. I confess that I do not understand the variety of tears that have been shed over this tax on the workers from the Fianna Fáil Benches in view of the glib way they taxed the workers in their Supplementary Budget. We repealed the objectionable sections of that Budget, showing that we did not desire to tax the workers. The remission of those taxes imposed in the Fianna Fáil Budget on cigarettes and tobacco would repay the additional contributions which are now payable over and over again.

All the cigarettes are going over the Border.

Do not let us hear any more of taxing the workers. Instead of taxing them, it will treat them with reasonableness.

Deputy Lemass said:—

"Why, instead of introducing a Bill of this kind, do you not give the people an increase all round? Give them 2/6 and tell them as soon as you like when they are going to get it."

I do not think that is good enough for them. I want to give the people in the rural areas a 5/- increase on the maximum and bring it up to the standard in the urban areas. I do not want to fob the widows and orphans off with 2/6. I want to make sure that the people in rural areas will get, not 2/6, but 5/-. Some widows will get, not the 2/6 that Deputy Lemass recommended, but increases varying from 11/- to 22/- in the week. I think that a Bill which does that is a better thing than this easy recipe of Deputy Lemass: "Give them 2/6 and get them over with." This is a better Bill, a more durable Bill, a more useful Bill from the point of view of those who will benefit by it. Deputy Lemass did not do too much distributing of 2/6's when his Government was in office and he is not going to wed me to the parsimonious code pursued by his Government in that respect.

I must say, seeing that he has administered unemployment insurance for about 14 years, Deputy Lemass has displayed an extraordinary want of knowledge as to the provisions of the Acts he was administering. He complained that in a case where a worker loses his employment through his own fault or leaves it without just cause he should be automatically disqualified from getting a pension for three months. That is a thing which he said that he thought was simply indefensible. Deputy Lemass forgot completely, apparently, that under the unemployment insurance code a person who leaves his employment in similar circumstances may be disqualified from receiving benefit for from one week to six weeks. I want in this Bill to give to the court of referees, for the purpose of the Unemployment Assistance Acts, the same discretion as they have in respect of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. A principle has been established in the case of the Unemployment Insurance Acts and I want to extend it and to remove the anomaly which exists at present in respect of the Unemployment Assistance Act. Deputy Lemass pretends that he has never heard of it before and that it is an entirely new principle. He quite ignores the fact that the principle was there and has a well established beaten track. As Deputy Hickey has said, if Deputy Lemass had any experience of courts of referees he would know that a certain elasticity was much more desirable. The chairman and members of courts of referees know that the present section of the Act is unsatisfactory inasmuch as it gives them no discretion and forces them to treat every case of a worker who leaves his employment in exactly the same way. The worst possible case of leaving employment or of insubordination on a job is treated in the same way as a case which is bristling with extenuating circumstances. I want to do for unemployment assistance what the Unemployment Insurance Act does for unemployment insurance, and in that way to give the court of referees that discretion which they have not got at present.

Deputy Corry raised the question of rates for agricultural workers and benefits for agricultural workers compared with town workers, and I have a good deal of sympathy with Deputy Corry in this matter. The whole difficulty arises from the fact that the Fianna Fáil Government introduced two rates of pensions for agricultural and non-agricultural workers and two rates of contributions, and it is because of that fatal early mistake we have the two rates now.

Change them.

I should like to see one rate of benefit and one rate of contributions, but Deputy Corry will realise that if you want to have the same rate of benefit for town workers as for agricultural workers in rural areas, then you must have the same rate of contributions. I think that it might be possible to make the agricultural worker's contribution the same because it is now less than that of the town worker. The structure of the Act is such that it allows the agricultural worker to pay a certain proportion of the town worker's contribution and he does not get a mathematically equal proportion of the town worker's benefit. He gets a higher proportion of benefit for his contribution. If there is any general desire in the House, however, that there should be one rate of contribution for agricultural workers and town workers and one rate of benefit, I would be glad to look at the matter sympathetically and see if there could be any means of establishing among the various Parties some measure of agreement.

I would like to get the Minister's suggestion in connection with that. Has he taken into consideration the amount of illness benefits drawn by town workers as against rural workers? He will find that while the rural worker might be paying a smaller rate, he is not so often ill.

This thing has got to stand on its own feet.

Put the rural workers by themselves and they will stand on their own feet.

Do not spoil the case of the rural worker. I am on his side as well as the Deputy. The present position is that the agricultural worker pays 4d. for pensions benefit and the non-agricultural worker pays 8d. That means that the agricultural worker pays 50 per cent. of the non-agricultural worker's contribution, but he gets 80 per cent. of the non-agricultural worker's benefit. If you were to increase the agricultural worker's contribution by 3d. you will give him the equivalent of the non-agricultural worker from the point of view of benefit for paying approximately 75 per cent. of the non-agricultural worker's contribution. You can see that there is a balance in favour of the agricultural worker. However, that is a matter that can be considered. Certainly it would tidy up this Bill very considerably if that section were redrafted on the lines of having one rate of benefit for one rate of contribution. I am prepared to examine that on an assurance that there is a pretty substantial measure of agreement amongst the Parties as to the desirability of doing it. In any case, whether we do it now or not, it will be examined in advance of the new comprehensive scheme which is to come later.

Deputy Commons raised the question of the abolition of the means test and in that respect he is on common ground with a number of other Deputies. I have already replied to the matter in general and I take it that no special reply is called for there. The Deputy, however, said that if we abolished the means test we would make savings in administration and that with the savings so effected we could open up a new scheme of additional social service benefits. I want to criticise the Deputy for expressing that point of view, because it is one which has been expressed on many occasions in this House. I have had that matter investigated to see how much would be saved by the abolition of the investigation into means and I am told that the savings would not amount to more than about 15 per cent. of an officer's time. The investigating officer's day is built up by doing a variety of work over a variety of fields of endeavour. If you were to eliminate the investigation into means for the purpose of old age pensions, you would save from 10 to 15 per cent. of his time. But, as the officers work in individual units and not in groups or aggregations of the population, you might knock off 10 or 15 per cent. of an official's time but, as there is only a single civil servant in a town or village, you would not save anything because of the fact that you must always have somebody there. In fact you save nothing whatever by discontinuing the investigation. I mention that merely to give the House the benefit of the inquiries I made on this subject.

Deputy Aiken, I understand, raised questions on Sections 13 and 54. Section 13 contains what is in fact a saving clause in case anybody now entitled to a certain rate of pension might, under the new Bill, run the risk of losing anything. Here is how it occurs. There are in the country old age pensioners who, although over 70 years of age themselves, have children not over 16 years of age. Now only those old age pensioners who got food vouchers for children up to the end of July, 1947, got cash supplements for children. From July, 1947, the last Government abolished the issue of cash supplements to old age pensioners with children under 16 years of age. Those who got pensions after that date got nothing for the children. In order to preserve the interests and the rights of those who got cash supplements for children before July, 1947, I introduced this saving clause for the purpose of making sure that, in case anything would operate to reduce their pension, they would be saved by Section 13. There is only a handful of people affected, but a mischievous effort was made to give this Section 13 a significance which it has not got. The Deputy could travel all Ireland for a week and not find one of these people.

Deputy Aiken is remarkably silent on that matter now. Why does he not give the Minister the benefit of the comments he made this evening on Sections 13 and 54?

I made my speech. If the Minister for Lands is satisfied, it is all right.

Deputy Hickey referred to the waiting period for unemployment assistance benefit. As I said before, this Bill is only making minor modifications in the existing Act and consolidating the basic benefits with the cash supplements. I understand the point of view which Deputy Hickey raised, but this is a matter which will be considered in connection with the amendment of the Unemployment Assistance Acts which will have to be dealt with in connection with, or following the introduction of, the comprehensive scheme. Deputy Hickey also referred to the question of the means of an applicant for old age pension purposes. He said that a person might be drawing benefit from the National Health Insurance Society and, when that person reached 70 years of age, the national health insurance benefit stopped and the person had to depend on the old age pension. That is one of the problems incidental to the operation of any kind of a means test. Any kind of means count for the purposes of the Old Age Pensions Act. As I say, this Bill goes some distance to relieve the problem. I do not say that it has gone far enough, or that it has gone as far as I should like it to go, but it has gone as far as I can stretch it with £2,500,000. When I get another £2,500,000, I shall have another shot at it in the direction suggested by Deputy Hickey. But, at the moment, the £2,500,000 is required to provide the benefits set out in this Bill.

Deputy Hickey also referred to the staffs of vocational education schools. These, of course, are not insurable under the Unemployment Insurance Act, being regarded as domestic staffs. It would require an amendment of the Act to have them classified as industrially insurable. That is one of many problems that will have to be dealt with in connection with the comprehensive scheme so as to see what classes it is desirable to make insurable. My view is that we ought to make as many of them as possible insurable so as to spread the comprehensive scheme over the greatest number of citizens.

Deputy Kissane referred to the fact that he thought it was now more difficult to get an old age pension than before. I do not know on what basis that statement is made, but again I want to say positively, definitely, deliberately, and with all the responsibility I have, that no instructions of any kind have been issued to deciding officers or to investigation officers to tighten up the means test inquiry. I want to allay everybody's fears in that connection by emphasising that no official instructions and no private instructions of any kind have been issued by me or by anybody else to tighten inquiries in regard to the means of applicants for old age pensions.

I come now to Deputy MacEntee's contribution to this debate. Deputy MacEntee spoke for about 1½ hours on the trials and tribulations which this Bill will impose on the people. According to him, everybody was to be adversely affected by the Bill; it is a most injurious Bill; it would pinch and squeeze a whole variety of people and it was the deliberate policy of the Government to introduce this Bill to annoy the people. Even in his wildest anger, Deputy Corry would not suggest that. He knows perfectly well that this is a good Bill and everybody else knows it too. However, half of the members on the Front Bench opposite set out to-day and yesterday to make a big attack on this Bill in the hope that they could deny it some of the undoubted benefits which it has and which will be felt in due course in the pockets and in the homes of those who will benefit under it.

Deputy MacEntee, notwithstanding the wise advice I gave him last week, went off on a tangent to-day about the solvency of the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Fund. I do not know if what I am going to do now will make any difference at all to the mental make-up of Deputy MacEntee or in any way improve his record for veracity in these matters but, lest the report of his speech be read and some people make the mistake of imagining that what he said was correct, I want to put the following on record. I said, on the occasion when the Estimate was being discussed, that the actuary was the authority for doing what we did in respect of the £450,000 which ought normally to be paid into the pensions fund. Deputy MacEntee—that incomparably knowledgeable man who knows much more, of course, than an actuary —said this evening that the actuary was wrong and that he, Deputy MacEntee, was right. Deputy MacEntee, of course, has a reputation which is all his own for always being right when the world is wrong. Of all the people in Ireland who make mistakes there is at least one impeccable citizen—Deputy MacEntee. He can always be right notwithstanding the fact that much more qualified people can always be wrong in his mind. This actuary was appointed during the period when Deputy MacEntee was himself in office. Writing about the solvency of the fund in a report dated November, 1944, the actuary said:—

"Under the Acts the amount of the Exchequer grants is prescribed until 31st March, 1945, and thereafter is to be such sums as the Oireachtas may determine. As indicated in paragraph 16 the sum paid during the last eight years, viz., £450,000 per annum, is substantially larger than will be needed in the future, and an equalised annual grant, during the next decennium, commencing on 1st April, 1945, of about one-half of this sum, say £220,000, is estimated to be sufficient, together with the contributions at their present rates and the interest on the accumulated assets, to meet all expenditure out of the fund for contributory and non-contributory pensions and the cost of administration thereof, and to secure that in ten years' time the invested reserves of the scheme will then be substantially equal to the present balance, viz., £3,900,000."

The balance then was £3,900,000. The actuary thought that ten years hence it should be about that amount and now it is £4,500,000—£600,000 more than the actuary said it should be ten years hence. We have six more years to go; we are accumulating annually, and yet Deputy MacEntee is worried about the solvency of the fund six years hence. I think the best thing to do is to let the actuary, whose business it is to investigate these matters, speak for himself. The position clearly is that the fund did not need the £450,000 this year because it is already more than solvent and it has more in it than it really needs to have in it. It is, at all events, absolutely safe. No widow or orphan need worry about its solvency and, in any case, Deputy MacEntee ought to know—but apparently he did not—that when the comprehensive scheme is introduced the fund goes. It will be merged into one national pool which will be there for all these contributions. Deputy MacEntee, as usual, is wasting time about the position of a fund six years hence when he knows, or ought to know, that it will go in about two years' time. Deputy MacEntee engaged in the rather puerile entertainment of reading out speeches which were made by Deputies of other Parties during the recent election. He dishonestly pretended that he believed that the promises which they then made in respect of social services were promises which they proposed to implement in a matter of a few months. He quoted Deputy Cowan and Deputy Larkin as promising 25/-a week. He quoted Senator Butler as promising increased social services— seeking to give the impression that this was all to come in a matter of a few months from the date of the election of the new Government.

On a point of correction, my figure was 26/-.

Very well. Nobody ever expected, I take it, that within five months of taking over office a new Government would be able—especially with the legacy of debts left to them by the last Government—to implement its full social welfare programme. We never promised to do it within five months. The inter-Party Government's policy, laid down for anybody to read, promises a modification of the means test. We have done more than that. We have increased the old age pensions, but even in so far as Deputy MacEntee issued a challenge, I would like to take it up and tell him and his Party that before this Government goes out of office it will redeem all the promises which were made by those who now constitute the inter-Party Government.

Deputy Cowan's and Deputy Larkin's schemes for 26/- a week old age pensions will be implemented in due course; and I am satisfied that before the Government goes out of office we will have higher old age pensions, higher widows' and orphans' pensions and higher unemployment insurance benefits and workmen's compensation. All these things will be done in due course. I think we have not made a bad start by making £2,500,000 available. It is a fair indication of what is going to come. The next task will be to get down to the contribution scheme and, when we get down to that scheme, I hope then that by adhering to an insurance basis we can step up our social services substantially. My main worry in the matter is how far we can spread our social services and over what classes of the community can we provide these benefits. We will try to make it as wide as possible consistent with the people's ability to pay or consistent with our ability to devise ways and means to bring them into a scheme in a manner that will not unduly tax the financial resources of the State. Fianna Fáil will not get any political tricks out of saying that this Government will not increase its social services more. As sure as Fianna Fáil Deputies are sitting in this House social services will be increased and improved once this Government is given time to do it and there will be no undue delay in doing it.

A comprehensive scheme will be pushed forward as tenaciously and as expeditiously as possible when this Bill is out of the way. I hope the House will have an opportunity at the earliest possible moment of reading the White Paper, of then getting Governmental approval for a scheme, giving the Bill to the House and giving to the nation as a whole a comprehensive scheme of social services infinitely better than those which we have to-day. I will make a present to Deputy Lemass and Deputy MacEntee and the other Deputies of the ramp they are trying to bring about in regard to the increase in the contributions by the workers under the three Acts. In my opinion the amount of the increase is trifling—a fragment compared with the taxes imposed on tobacco, cigarettes, the bottle of stout and cinema seats by the last Government. Put down these taxes on the one side and put down what the ordinary working man and woman spent in paying the additional taxes imposed by the Fianna Fáil Budget— and which we repealed one week after being elected—and you will see that, even if you call the additional contributions taxes, they are trifling compared with the three imposed by Fianna Fáil in its supplementary Budget. Crocodile tears of that kind will deceive nobody. I have a sufficient appreciation of and knowledge of Irish workers to know that they would gladly consent to an increase in their contributions to see those increases used to build up better widows' and orphans' pensions and better old age pensions instead of being utilised in the ghastly tragedy of trying to establish a transatlantic air service when other air services all over the world are losing millions of money to-day. From the point of view of the workers, taxation—even if you call it taxation —raised in this way gives them better rights to the various benefits in the future than they have got in the past. That taxation will be used, if it is used at all, in the interests of improving social service. Deputy MacEntee may rest assured that he will get no political tricks by trying to start a hare of that kind because in the long run he will not be able to convince anybody with intelligence in this country that a Bill which gives £2,500,000 additional for social welfare schemes is a bad Bill, or that a Government which produces it is an undesirable Government I recommend this Bill to the House for a Second Reading. I feel convinced that, notwithstanding all that has been said by the Fianna Fáil Deputies in the course of this debate, in their hearts they know perfectly well it is a good Bill, one which their own Government would never have introduced with the speed which we have introduced it and one which their own Government had decided it would not introduce because they had decided that they would not introduce Bills of this kind to increase non-contributory widows' and orphans' pensions and non-contributory old age pensions. This Bill has come quicker than the Fianna Fáil Deputies thought it would. They are disappointed. They will get over that. It is only a political disappointment. They know in their hearts it is a good Bill and I defy them to vote against it.

Question put and agreed to.

With regard to the Committee Stage, the point was raised to-day that some additional time might perhaps be afforded for the submission of amendments on the Committee Stage and it was agreed that these might be submitted up to the forenoon of Tuesday next.

Tuesday morning at 11 o'clock.

Is Deputy Aiken in a position to state definitely now whether the Opposition will agree to take all the remaining stages next week? Deputy Lemass intimated that he would discuss that matter later but it would be useful if we could know at this stage whether we shall have to make provision for the Report Stage next week or whether that stage will be deferred to the week after.

I do not know what the position is. It would be better to get the Whips together on that and let them settle it.

Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 4th August.

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