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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 1948

Vol. 113 No. 12

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 67—Miscellaneous Social Welfare Services.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1949, for Sundry Miscellaneous Social Welfare Services, including Grants.

This is merely a token Vote, and the purpose of the Vote is to provide for the recoupment of 50 per cent. of the supplementary expenditure in cash made by local authorities in substitution for the previous schemes of supplementary assistance in kind. The matter has already been discussed in the House—firstly, by being raised on the adjournment; and, secondly, during the Estimate. This Estimate, in effect, involves merely the switching of expenditure incurred in the rendering of assistance by local authorities in kind for assistance in cash on the basis of recouping the local authority for 50 per cent. of their expenditure in that supplementary assistance in the form of cash supplements.

I do not think we can pass this without protesting at the grant not being higher than it is. We cannot move an amendment to increase it. The Minister will recollect that the Minister for Finance, together with other Ministers of the Government, complained daily and hourly of the size of the Budget prepared by the Fianna Fáil Government. That Budget was £70,000,000 odd. The inter-Party Government set out to reduce the Estimates. One way in which the Minister for Social Welfare has lent his hand to reducing the Estimates is by cutting the grant formerly made by the State to the recipients of home assistance by 50 per cent., and by notifying local authorities that in the coming year it will be cut by the whole 100 per cent.

You were not three weeks in office when you cut that grant which was provided for in the Book of Estimates. The Minister for Social Welfare told us on very many occasions that something must be done to stop the squandermania of Fianna Fáil. The Minister's contribution to the stopping of that squandermania was to cut the grant given by the previous Government over a number of years for the purpose of giving increased assistance to the persons in receipt of home assistance. I want to protest that the Minister gave no reason whatever for the cutting of that grant when he moved this Estimate. He said we would discuss it on the motion for the adjournment.

And on the Estimate.

It was mentioned in the Estimate. It is open for full discussion now on this Vote. He gave no reason whatever except the one that it is the policy of the Government that he sits in as Minister for Social Welfare. We had indications from him before, on the Bill he introduced some time ago in the Dáil, where he increased insurance contributions, that he is lending himself towards every effort to unload the burden on to the backs of the workers and the backs of the employers and the small farmers and everybody else throughout the country. Every possible device has been resorted to by this Government in order to justify themselves to the people outside that they are the people who will reduce taxation. It is quite easy to reduce taxation if you unload it on to somebody else. They cried and wept so much about the agricultural workers about whom we heard so much from the Minister and they now load their backs with increased contributions.

That is not in this Vote.

It is an aside.

It is a long way aside.

It is not provided for in this Estimate?

This is a Supplementary Estimate.

Yes, a Supplementary Estimate that provides for 50 per cent. of last year's contribution, or 50 per cent. of the extra that the local authorities pay to home assistance recipients this year. In the coming year the Minister has already notified the local authorities that he is going to give none whatever and that the local authorities may, if they wish and if they consider it right, give the extra amount at the expense of the rate-payers or they need not give it as far as the Minister is concerned, so long as he can get rid of it and can help the Minister for Finance to do away with, as he said, the squandermania of the Fianna Fáil. Coming from a Labour Minister of a Government, that was a most extraordinary statement to make.

Yes, on this Vote. If this is the type of squandermania to which the Minister referred when he said that the Fianna Fáil Government were guilty of squandermania we have nothing to be sorry for. I hope that before this discussion ends the Minister will justify to the House the reasons why it is necessary in this year of grace 1948 to cut an Estimate provided for in the Book of Estimates by Fianna Fáil.

This is not the Estimate.

Double this amount was provided for in the Book of Estimates this year under the Minister for Social Welfare's Vote. I want to protest again that the Minister has seen fit and has lent his hand to cut against the poorer sections of the community the amount provided by the Fianna Fáil Government in the Book of Estimates issued last January.

Does the Minister realise what the political reactions of this are going to be? The local bodies are going to get very indignant about it. When the recipients know that they are not going to get it next year they will complain to the local bodies and the local bodies will say that the Government is responsible. On the face of it it is going to be a purely book-keeping transaction to satisfy the propagandists of the——

Of the Fianna Fáil.

——inter-Party Government who are deceiving themselves. They need not hope to deceive the people by it, rest assured of that.

Is there any proposal in this Supplementary Estimate to reduce anything next year?

The principle of the thing is that the whole onus is outwardly going to be thrown on the local bodies. It is on that basis that I am arguing.

I am sorry that at a festive season like this Deputy Allen is so grim and sombre as he appears to be this evening. He has been engaging in a lot of shadow boxing with all kinds of spectres, which in fact do not exist at all except in Deputy Allen's imagination. Deputy Allen owes a big debt of gratitude to his imagination for the facts are the converse of what he has produced this evening. All that Deputy Allen said on this Estimate is complete and unadulterated nonsense so far as the local authorities are concerned, and so far as the applicants for home assistance are concerned. Let us look at the facts. During the emergency, it was decided that unusual emergency measures would have to be taken to deal with certain problems. One of the devices resorted to in order to try and keep people above poverty and destitution standards of living was to give them assistance at the expense of the State in the form of food vouchers. But have we now, after 16 years of Fianna Fáil Government, reached a condition of affairs in which the maintenance of the food vouchers, with all the odium and all the taint of the poor law system that goes hand in hand with that odious system, represents the objective of Fianna Fáil as an explanation of Deputy Allen's speech and Deputy Little's fears expressed in a few short sentences?

Everybody with any conception of a decent outlook on life knows that the food voucher is the equivalent of the soup kitchen. Do we not know well that it is a degrading practice? Do we not know well that only the poor, the lonely, and the destitute are compelled to look for food vouchers? What is Deputy Allen's concept of his sense of independence, honour and pride, and what is Deputy Little's concept of his independence and pride that they now weep over the departure of the food voucher? Does any Deputy think it is a right and proper method of satisfying the human demands of people for decent standards of living to offer them paltry food vouchers which they could change in shops, labelled that they are people with food vouchers, that they are getting free food vouchers? I should have thought that a person like Deputy Little, especially, would be standing beside me, that he would think this food voucher scheme is a detestable scheme only justified in the direst emergency, that it is not a scheme that ought to be a permanent feature either of social services or welfare services.

The proposal which we introduced early in the year was to get rid of the detestable food vouchers so as to make sure that people were not going into grocery shops with food vouchers pasted over them, so that the rest of the community, the wealthy section of the community or those who are able to earn a modest competence, will be able to gaze at those recipients of food vouchers and extend to them the sympathy which ought rightfully to go to people placed in such a degrading and humilating position. The food voucher is gone, and I do not know any decent man or woman in this House or in the country who wants to recall that odious, detestable method of pasting on the poor people of this country labels which indicate that they are in impecunious circumstances. If Deputy Little wants to shed tears over the departure of the food voucher, let him do it, but he will have very little sympathy from decent-minded men and women at the departure of that contemptible device, justified only in the direst emergency, but certainly no longer justifiable in our circumstances.

Let me recall for Deputy Little's edification, because he seems to have a mental black-out on this business, that even his own Government in 1947 abolished some of the food vouchers and substituted for them cash payments. I did the very same thing in respect of home assistance recipients, because I thought that the maintenance of that scheme had nothing whatever to commend it to the House or to the country and was completely unjustified in present circumstances. Under the 1939 Public Assistance Act the responsibility is put on local authorities for the relief of destitution. That Act was passed by the Fianna Fáil Government and definitely put on the local authorities the responsibility of relieving destitution and acute need so far as applicants for home assistance are concerned. We said to the local authorities: In future, therefore, you have got to bear the responsibility which is properly and lawfully yours under the 1939 Public Assistance Act. This year, however, we will pay half the cost of the food vouchers, but next year you will take the responsibility which properly has been put on you under the 1939 Act, and you will relieve, as you are statutorily obliged to do, those who are compelled through economic necessity to seek the assistance of the local authorities to the extent that the local authorities have power under this Act to provide the necessary relief. That is all that is being done.

Deputy Allen says we are taking these food vouchers away from the recipients of home assistance. We told the local authorities that, with the abolition of the detestable food voucher and the badge of the poor law with which it was extensively impregnated, they should give to applicants for home assistance and outdoor relief at least a cash equivalent of the food voucher. Therefore, so far as the local applicant for relief is concerned, he was told, through the mouthpiece of this Government and from the platform of this Dáil, that the food voucher will go and all the odium with it, but that instead the local authority will be required, by a direction from the Government, to give to applicants for outdoor relief or home assistance at least the cash equivalent of the food vouchers. Therefore, the applicant in future could buy with cash out of his own pocket whatever commodities he liked and when he went to a shop to buy these commodities he would not be festooned with food vouchers, as he was up to the abolition of the scheme.

Does not everybody realise that it is very much better to give a man or woman cash so that when they go to a grocery shop they can buy in the way Deputy Little or Deputy Allen buys? Is there any special reason why people should be put in a special, untouchable category and say:—"These are folk who cannot buy as the rest of the citizens buy; they have to buy through the medium of the food voucher and all that that implies"? I will debate this with Deputy Little in Waterford or Deputy Allen in Wexford. I think that everybody that wants to preserve the independence of our people and to give them a pride in their right to be independent will express nothing but gratification at the passing of the food voucher, because we have substituted cash for the food voucher which is now gone.

Now look at it from another point of view. Deputy Allen wailed about the effect of this on local authorities. So far as local authorities are concerned, it means about 1¼d. in the rates, on an average. That is what they have to face up to, but not this year, because they have only to face up to half that this year. What are we doing for the local authorities instead of that? The last Government would not raise old age pensions except by a miserable 2/6, and they said to the local authorities: "But you can give them something more, if you are satisfied that they are absolutely destitute." Some of the responsibility for giving that something more fell on the local authorities. That is now coming off the local authorities, because, as from 7th January next, the old age pensioner will not have his old age pension made up of two components, (1) the State's ald-age pension; (2) the trifle which the old-age pensioner receives from the local authority through the medium of the home assistance officer. In future the State will accept full responsibility for the old-age pension, and not full responsibility for an old-age pension at the rate payable in the past, but full responsibility for an old-age pension which is higher now than it ever was since the old-age pension was introduced in 1908.

Is the Minister spreading himself out on old-age pensions? If the Minister is spreading himself out on a service not mentioned before, it will be pretty hard to preclude others from coming in.

Deputy Allen, in his sombre-like speech, wanted to generate a cold war on the local authorities and to work them into a state of nerves by saying that this was going to mean financial disaster for them. It is a trifle so far as the local authorities are concerned and, for the trifle which they are now going to bear as a result of what we have done, they will get back very substantial remissions of expenditure which they were formerly required to bear. For instance, local authorities in the past had to give those in receipt of widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions, supplementary benefits; they had to give the same to blind persons and also to old age pensioners. The fact that these people will get much more money now will relieve the local authority of the responsibility in a great many cases of having to expend money trying to make up for the inadequate rates of benefit paid under these three schemes—old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions, and blind pensions.

Will we be allowed to discuss these schemes?

If the Minister touches on matters which Deputies were prohibited from touching on, Deputies will have their opportunity later.

So far as the local authorities are concerned this, taken in conjunction with what is being done under other aspects of social welfare, makes the whole thing a good bargain, a good thing for the local authorities. Deputy Little can cheer up, because the future is bright for the local authorities, and the forebodings of Deputy Allen will not be realised. A brighter and more cheerful future is being opened up for the local authorities by what is being done here, and more will be done in the future.

The Minister has a wonderful capacity for drawing red herrings across the trail. I never mentioned food vouchers, and I did not mention pensions. I did mention that the Government are merely handing on the baby to another authority which will pay the bill. There was a great deal to be said for the food vouchers. I do not take up a brass-hat, bourgeoisie, labour point of view in regard to food vouchers at all. They were a magnificent arrangement. With the fluctuating prices at the time, you were giving more realistic and better value than if you were giving them cash. The prices of things were fluctuating to such an extent that you never knew where you were, and it was considered very desirable to give food vouchers.

As between the vouchers and the money I cannot see that there was any great difference. You were giving them the vouchers because these people happened to be the more unfortunate in the community. But there is no disgrace about being poor, and it is a great honour to be able to help them. I have to admire the Minister for the manner in which he dragged in other things besides the point at issue. He is merely handing on the baby to the local authority where our Government paid the money before.

The Minister said that the previous Government changed the food voucher system into one of cash, and his remarks seemed to indicate that he is now changing the food voucher system for the first time. I would like to point out to the Minister that the food vouchers that were issued during the war were mainly for unrationed goods and gave the recipients a first claim on a share of those unrationed food items, such as bread, milk and butter—I think butter for a good part of the time was unrationed. If you had a cash system of assistance those people would have been unable to get these foods, because they would be in competition with people far better off. The system was changed by the last Government when it was deemed that it could be safely changed without any great hardship on the recipients.

Everybody agrees with the Minister that it is better to give people money, but in the special circumstances of the time far better service was rendered to these people for the reason I have stated. I think the cash equivalent in those circumstances would not have got them any appreciable quantity of those commodities.

With regard to the changing of the emergency cash supplements given to various types of people that the Minister mentioned and that I understand a reference to whom is not quite in order, would the Minister say whether this addition in the amount now given will be counted as means in certain circumstances? For instance, take the case of a husband and wife, one of whom is a recipient of benefit under the national health insurance scheme.

The Deputy is spreading it out even more than the Minister.

In any event, he certainly led us along devious ways that are not, I take it, on the chart you have before you.

The chart I have is the Supplementary Estimate, just the same as the Deputy.

I will conclude by saying that we agree with the Minister that it is better to give cash than to give any system of food vouchers, but I repeat that in the circumstances in which the vouchers were given the Minister himself—and he has used a great many adjectives in his remarks against the voucher system—would, if he were the Minister in charge of that service during the war, when there was a scarcity of the foods covered by the food vouchers, have felt constrained to issue vouchers if he were to give the benefits that were intended for those people. He would have had no other alternative.

What I am concerned about is the vicious practice of piling on to local authorities financial burdens that should be borne by the Exchequer. The Minister has admitted that half the cost of this is to be borne by the local authorities this year and the entire cost next year. The Minister referred to food vouchers and one would imagine by the way he spoke that there was a stigma attaching to them. Everybody knows that they were as useful to the recipients in their time as cash. As Deputy Bartley pointed out, these food vouchers gave the recipients a first claim on rationed goods and rationed fuel. What I have to cavil at is the principle involved in this, asking the local authorities to bear what should be borne by the Exchequer.

It is a grand thing, of course, to be generous with other people's money. That is exactly what the Minister for Social Welfare is doing. He is making a grand display here of his alleged generosity, when we all know that that generosity will come out of the pockets of the local authorities.

Like the cost of wheat at £50 a ton.

Are we discussing wheat on this Supplementary Estimate?

Where did the supplementary half-crown come from?

From the Central Fund, from the Exchequer. That half-crown was recouped to the local authorities by the Exchequer. If the Deputy will look it up he will find that I am right. There is one thing to be said about the Fianna Fáil Government — any schemes they initiated were carried out. They financed them themselves without any show of pretence whatsoever, and without passing on the burden to the local authorities. As I have said it is a fine thing to be generous with other people's money. The Minister has mentioned that this will not cost any more than a 1¼d. in the £, but let it be no more than 1¼d. in the £ for local authorities, if this system is once adopted, where will it end? It will be a 1¼d. for this to-day and 2d. for something else to-morrow, for another scheme initiated and carried out by the Government. In my opinion, the local authorities are already overburdened in places such as Kerry, where the rates are nearly 40/- in the £. I think we should hesitate before piling further burdens on them.

Who caused the overburdening?

That is another red herring. I know very well that some Deputies opposite pretended to approach the local authority in Kerry with a view to cutting down the local rates, but they did not go any further because they were told that if the rates were reduced certain beneficial schemes that had been in contemplation for the county could not be carried out, and they very quickly abandoned their representations.

They were not told that during the election.

We were told many things during the election. I certainly object to this bad principle if I may call it so, of pretending to be generous in certain directions and at the same time compelling local authorities to pay for the cost involved in these schemes.

May I say one word in reply to Deputy Bartley and Deputy Kissane. It has been stated that the food vouchers scheme gave people a right of access to certain foods to which they had no right to up to this.

They had the ordinary right.

To unrationed food.

Virtually the only food they got was rationed food.

What about bread and milk?

Was there any difficulty in getting bread and milk during the war?

Because it was not short. They could not have got it if it was.

Is it not perfectly clear that bread was short during the war in the sense that people could not get all they wanted?

You said it was.

In so far as it gave certain people the right to obtain certain foods above others, it gave people who were unemployed the right to obtain more rationed commodities than people who were working. As the Deputy knows well in many cases these food vouchers were taken in the shops and passed over the counter, not for goods at all but for cash or for other commodities.

Possibly some of these people did not want the coupons.

That is why we think that the cash arrangements are better. So far as Deputy Kissane's remarks are concerned, the rates are getting more relief by what is being done in regard to social services than ever they got before. Deputy Kissane said that the rates in Kerry are up to 40/- in the £. This Government did not put them up to that figure. Deputy Kissane may be able to throw some light on what was responsible for increasing the rates there.

I can't say exactly who were responsible. This Government have done nothing to bring them down.

There is no need to worry about the rate position in Kerry as a result of this Supplementary Estimate. The rating position will be better related to what has been done in respect of social services.

Vote put and agreed to.
Vote reported and agreed to.
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