Vol. 114 No. 5
I move:—
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £53,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1949, for Expenditure in respect of Public Buildings; for the Maintenance of certain Parks and Public Works; and for the Execution and Maintenance of Drainage and other Engineering Works.
This Supplementary Estimate provides for increased expenditure expected to be incurred on the services provided under certain sub-heads of the Vote for Public Works and Buildings, offset by estimated additional receipts under sub-head L — Appropriations-in-Aid, and savings anticipated on other sub-heads. The gross additional expenditure is estimated at £305,500, the surplus receipts at £139,000 and the savings on other sub-heads at £113,500, leaving a net shortage of £53,000 for which the Supplementary Estimate will require to be voted.
Expenditure under sub-head A includes substantial sums in respect of the following items which were not foreseen when the Estimate was framed:—
(a) The purchase of Shanganagh Castle, Shankill, County Dublin, as alternative accommodation for Colaiste Moibhi, who had occupied portion of the former Hibernian Military School premises in the Phoenix Park. The latter premises have been leased to the Dublin Corporation for hospital purposes.
(b) The purchase of a residence in Ottawa for the High Commissioner to Canada.
(c) The purchase of 3 Merrion Square, Dublin, for use as Government offices.
(d) The acquisition of the leasehold interest in premises in New York as office accommodation for the New York Consulate in place of less suitable accommodation surrendered.
To meet this expenditure and provide for the contingency of further properties suitable for our requirements becoming available within the present financial year, an additional sum of £55,000 is required under this sub-head. The necessity for the additional sums shown as being required to meet expenditure under sub-heads C, D (1) and D (2) arises mainly from increases in wages rates and of materials.
Expenditure under sub-head 2 will be greater than anticipated due to increased rates generally and changes in rental terms. To provide, in addition, for the cost of accommodation requiring to be leased for representatives abroad it is desirable that provision for the further sum of £4,500 be made under this sub-head.
Progress with the Brosna drainage scheme has been greater than anticipated so that expenditure under sub-head J (2) is expected to exceed the original sum provided by £29,000. The position regarding the availability of plant and machinery proved much more favourable than was anticipated when the Estimate was framed so that it was found possible to purchase excavating machines and other plant in greater numbers than was originally expected. Payments already made amount to £93,000 and further deliveries are expected before the end of the financial year. To meet the additional expenditure a further sum of £119,000 is required for sub-head K (1).
Surplus receipts from rents and fines are expected to amount to £122,400. This sum comprises unforeseen receipts, the principal item in which is a fine of £120,000 payable by the Dublin Corporation in respect of the lease to them of the former Hibernian Military School premises in the Phoenix Park. From harbour tolls, dues, etc., hire of plant, the sale of surplus and obsolete stores and old materials and miscellaneous items, further receipts in excess of the original Estimate are expected to be realised bringing the total surplus to £139,000. The savings of £113,500, which it is expected will be realised on other sub-heads, consist mainly of savings on sub-head B (£40,000), sub-head F (£14,000), sub-head K (2) (£37,000) and sub-head K (3) (£19,000).
When is it expected to complete the work on the Brosna? Would the Parliamentary Secretary give us some idea of the number of men employed there now and also state what facilities in the way of housing have been provided on the site of the works for men employed and if his Department has experienced any difficulty in recruiting men for the work?
On that question the Parliamentary Secretary will admit that some couple of months ago, with a number of colleagues from the constituency, I raised some of the points now raised by Deputy Smith. I was wondering whether any inquiries had been made in the meantime regarding the number of workers employed at that particular period and who were expected to travel long distances to and from their work. Is it the intention of the Parliamentary Secretary and his advisers as the work goes on and as the men have to go further afield from their own homes, to provide hutments, especially for single men? There is also the question of working conditions and wages. I should like to know whether there has been any decision on the part of the Government to improve the existing rates of wages following the increased rates given to agricultural labourers. I am not admitting that the principal portion of the workers employed on the Brosna are doing work that can reasonably be compared with the work normally carried out by agricultural labourers. It is a work of a completely different kind especially in winter time. I should be glad to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary what steps were taken following the representations made to him a couple of months ago on these matters by Deputies Flanagan, T. O'Higgins and myself.
On the question of wage rates on schemes carried out by the Board of Works or under the auspices of the Board, I would be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would indicate the reasons why the wage rates are pegged to the agricultural rates in the different areas. There does not seem to me to be any good reason for it. In some cases I know of it means a definite hardship upon men. For instance, there will be a rural improvement scheme carried out in County Dublin in the very near future and the proposed rate on that scheme would be the agricultural rate for the area. In my opinion it would be next to impossible to get men to do the job at that rate because it is so very much below the rate paid by the local authorities. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to indicate why it is that the rate on this scheme is not at least on the same level as the rate paid by the local authorities.
The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned an increase of £29,000 under sub-head J (2). I should like to know what that actually represents, whether that £29,000 extra is for wages or, if not, how it is to be expended. I should also like to know if there is a sufficient number of men available to carry on the work on the Brosna. His Department is in competition with Bord na Móna in respect of labour in that area. In fact Bord na Móna have the advantage inasmuch as they have provided hutments for their men. I should like to know whether the Parliamentary Secretary intends to provide similar accommodation for the men who at present have to travel long distances and for other men who will be called upon to work there as this scheme expands.
I did not catch what the Parliamentary Secretary said concerning the purchase of Shanganagh Castle. I should like to know what it cost and the purpose for which it is required by the State.
With regard to sub-head K (1)—purchase of engineering plant and machinery—I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that machinery is more freely available now than it was. Would he tell us what machinery is involved in this sum of £119,000 and how much more it will be able to carry out, how many schemes it can operate, and what is the reason for the delay in starting on other schemes besides the Brosna? When the Parliamentary Secretary was speaking in this House in years gone by he thought this work could be done a lot quicker than it has been done since he took over the responsibility for it. In years gone by, when he had not any responsibility, he gave a different impression altogether to the people in the West of Ireland than the impression he has given now. As to Shanganagh Castle, I understand it is being taken over for a school. I understand that it is an awful place and that it is a scandal to ask young people to take up residence there. I heard that, but I do not know how true it is. I am told that it is not a satisfactory place at all.
It was to help the sick.
I am not quarrelling with that. Do not let the Parliamentary Secretary try to get away on that foot. The suggestion I am making is that more suitable alternative accommodation could have been provided, not that the sick should not have been transferred. With regard to the machinery, I should like to know what additional progress will be made with this £119,000 worth of machinery.
I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if it is the practice of his Department to make furniture and other fittings in Dublin and send them down to places such as Cork instead of getting them made locally where there are plenty of men available. Will he consider getting them made locally in the future?
I have practically the same point to make that Deputy Dunne made, namely, that in Castlemartyr under a rural improvement scheme a lot of local road men were brought in to work and were paid a lesser rate than they would get under the county council and were not allowed for holydays.
I do not think that there is any money for that under this Vote.
I might have saved a little there.
You may have done a little bit of saving. I was amused to hear the speeches of Deputies Dunne and Davin, considering that last week they voted for putting road men on to drainage work. I want these people to be consistent.
One day you wanted to close the pubs and another day you wanted to open them.
You voted in favour of keeping the rural pubs closed.
If the Deputy has nothing further to say on the Estimate——
I cannot help interruptions.
The Deputy is not obliged to answer interruptions. It would be wiser not to answer them.
The point I am making is that Deputies Dunne and Davin made statements in connection with the wages paid by the Board of Works.
On the Brosna scheme.
On the Brosna scheme. Last week, owing to the rosy promises made, they voted for putting men at drainage work, on work in the bogs, and drainage work for the Minister for Agriculture at the same rate they would get on the roads.
That is not relevant.
They voted for that last week.
That is not relevant.
It is rather funny to see them——
I am telling the Deputy that it is not relevant.
Did the Parliamentary Secretary tell us that he had saved on the rural improvements section?
I never mentioned it. It is not in this Vote.
You said you saved.
I said "may be". I am not short of money for it or I would be coming here for an additional Vote.
Deputies must address the Chair.
The Parliamentary Secretary said that he was making savings on certain sub-heads. Did he or did he not suggest that he was saving under the sub-head for rural improvement schemes?
I would be long sorry to do so.
I want a straight answer.
This is not a cross-examination. The Deputy may make his speech.
I think he informed the House that he was hoping to save on the rural improvements section.
I said no such thing.
Under the sub-head providing for it. We shall understand one another after a while.
There is no provision under any of the sub-heads for a rural improvement scheme.
If that is so, I am not further concerned in the matter.
I want to ask a question about a very old problem—the Brick and Cashen drainage scheme in Kerry.
There is no money here for it. There is money for the Brosna.
I understand there is a sub-head to provide machinery for the carrying out of these arterial drainage schemes. Surely, that machinery will not be devoted entirely to the Brosna scheme. I will content myself by asking whether it is proposed, in the near future, to go ahead with the Brick and Cashen scheme. I understand that certain people, deeply interested in it, have been given to understand that it is likely to commence before the 1st July. I do not want to pin down the Parliamentary Secretary to dates, but will he say if there is any foundation for the belief, which is widespread, that this scheme is likely to commence before the 1st July of this year?
It will be commenced before the next general election.
Apart from general elections, everyone knows that it is a scheme of the utmost importance for the people down there. I wonder whether, on the sub-head "purchase of sites and buildings", I would be in order in referring to a communication sent to the Kerry County Council recently in connection with the building at Foynes. As we have the Minister for Health present, he might be able to shed some light on the matter. In this communication, the Kerry County Council has been invited to take over the building at Foynes for tuberculosis.
Will the Deputy say under what sub-head that comes?
"Purchase of Sites and Buildings."
That sub-head is to provide money for the purchase of sites for the Departments of Finance, Education and External Affairs.
I was trying to elicit some information from the Parliamentary Secretary on this important question. It seems to me that the Kerry County Council will want to know what they will be saddled with.
It would appear as if this Supplementary Estimate were dealt with on the basis that all the extra money was for the Brosna scheme. I am sorry that the sum for it is not three times or even ten times as much as it actually is. Deputy Smith asked me about the Glyde and the Dee, and if all this new machinery is going to the Brosna. We have not enough yet for the Brosna. I went down there last week-end to see the position of the workers and to see what was happening there. I am glad to be able to tell the House and the country that I was more than gratified with the work that is going on there. Our labourers, our engineers, our gangers and the staff that we have there are doing their work perfectly. If there are members of the Dáil interested in drainage work I would advise them to take a day off and go down to Ferbane and the Brosna and see what is happening there. I think they will come to the conclusion that the great thing is not to rush drainage schemes. They will see that what is being done there is well done.
I want to pay a tribute to the workers especially, and to give an assurance to Deputy Smith and to Deputy Davin who raised a question about accommodation for the workers. I know that some of them have to travel long distances to their work. As a worker myself, I fully realise that it is very hard for a man to give of his best if he has to travel a long distance on a bicycle and take his food with him. At the moment we are at the outfall and hope that, within the next six months, we shall have it opened right to the Shannon. We hope to be able to move our excavators and dredgers right up to Mullingar. When we arrive at that stage, these men will not have to travel such long distances. One can never compare a drainage scheme with schemes such as those carried out, say by Bord na Móna or with a scheme for the provision of huts to accommodate the workers on the bogs for turf production during the period of the emergency. The reason that one cannot make the comparison is that we hope to be moving soon from the point at which we are now. If we were to put up accommodation huts we would find in a few months' time that we would have to move further on. Therefore their provision is impossible in our case. We hope, in a few months' time, to have moved right up the Brosna and to be able to put our excavators at places where men will be readily available for work. In that way there will be no accommodation problem for them. I am sure Deputy Davin is satisfied with that.
The question of the rates of pay to the workers was raised by Deputy Davin and Deputy Dunne. I believe those men are entitled to good wages. They are good, sincere, honest workers. The rates of pay that we are giving them to-day are not pegged down to the agricultural rate of wages as was suggested by Deputy Dunne. I want to point out to him that they are geting a higher rate of pay than the rate for agricultural workers. If there are any complaints from those workers at any time as regards the rate of wages I assure Deputy Davin and the House that we shall be only too glad to take it up with them. I can assure you that, while I am Parliamentary Secretary at any rate they will get fair play because I think their work is what one may call number one in importance in this country.
There was reference to the Glyde and Dee. We shall go along there as soon as we possibly can and the same applies with regard to the Feale. You learn a lot more if you go and see for yourself than if you are told these things. I hope that the Dáil will co-operate in every way with me so that we can have three schemes going together. One, like the Brosna, finishing off some day soon; the Glyde and Dee in full swing and probably the Feale area starting. That is our intention so that we shall have three schemes going at the same time. However, we have not got enough machinery for those jobs. We are trying to get the machinery as you see in the Supplementary Estimate. Deputy Ó Briain, instead of referring to what I used to think about drainage, should start complimenting me on having such a huge amount in a Supplementary Estimate, an amount that I never thought there would be a hope of spending.
You will get no compliments at all.
I only wish we could get machinery and plant so that we could deal with three or four times as much. I know from my own Minister for Finance that it would be given freely and I am quite sure it would be the wish of the House that I should get it also. Deputy O'Grady and other Deputies in the House referred to Foynes. I think Deputy O Briain said that we put certain people in Shanganagh and it was not fit for them. I am sure that Deputies realise that we consulted the authorities to ask whether they were good enough for them. As the House knows, it was a first-class hotel. Surely it was good enough for them and was made suitable to accommodate them. Even if it was a little hardship, and it was not, it really meant that people who were sick and dying from disease through the change being made could be accommodated in a hospital. I think that is a great consideration for all our people. The man behind it was the Minister for Health. In his hard work the board co-operated with him and I believe that he did something that not only this country will thank him for but when he goes to his reward it will be marked down for him.
Deputy McGrath raised the question of manufacturing furniture and said that Cork was not getting its fair share. All our furniture is got by contract and if the people of Cork are not able to come forward as contractors and compete with the rest of the country we cannot help it.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell me——
Unless the Parliamentary Secretary gives way the Deputy has no right.
I am asking for that right.
I am sorry if I have missed any points that were raised. I do not think there is anything more I can add beyond saying that I am glad to be introducing this Supplementary Estimate.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer my question as regards fittings like timber inside the G.P.O. and so forth, which I understand are sent down from Dublin? I was not referring to the ordinary furniture.
I asked a few specific questions which I will repeat.
I am sorry.
You dealt with them but not in the way in which I hoped you would. My first question was, how many men are at present employed on the Brosna scheme? How many men is the present organisation of the Brosna capable of handling at this moment? If the number employed is not equal to the number that is capable of being employed there, why is it that a sufficient number is not recruited and if the reason for their not being recruited is lack of accommodation, what steps are being taken in order to create that accommodation on the site of the work?
I regret that I missed that point. It is not possible to give a definite number of men. In the months of January, February, December everybody knows you can not have as many men employed in drainage work as you can in the summer months. Sometimes we went up to roughly 500 men working on the Brosna. At certain times of the year, for instance in the month of December after the huge floods, men did not come to us and we dropped down to roughly 130 men. We are not short of men there. You will not get as many men to turn out in drainage works in November, December and January as you will in the other months of the year and you do not want them to do so either. As far as we are concerned the number over the year on the average is just the number that we require. When we look for them we get them. When we are short of men we look up others and we succeed in getting them. All I can say about the work on the Brosna scheme is that our engineering staff are down there and they are all doing their work. We have no trouble whatsoever. The House will be surprised to hear that through the work that they are doing we are now more than six months in advance of what we thought we would be.
Is it not a fact that groups of men living in certain towns are expected to travel ten and 11 miles? This is not the first time I have asked this question. Will the Parliamentary Secretary consider the possibility of providing transport to enable large groups of men who are living, and available to work, in certain towns ten and 11 miles away from the point where the work is going on to get to their work under fairly reasonable conditions? It is not fair to expect these men to cycle 11 and 12 miles each way per day.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary say if at any time since this work was started machines have been idle because of lack of labour?
No, is the answer to that. Deputy Davin must realise that if we started carrying people at all or taking them along in lorries or buses the next thing would be that the men within a mile of the job will want transport.
I am not standing for that.
If we were able to get as many people as we need in the towns near the work they would not need to travel at all. If we have to employ people from a distance we will give serious consideration to the question of transport.
