Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Mar 1949

Vol. 114 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Teachers' Superannuation Scheme—Motion.

Minister for Education (General Mulcahy)

I move:—

That the National School Teachers' Superannuation (Amendment) Scheme, 1948, made by the Minister for Education, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, be confirmed.

The principal provisions of these regulations are contained in paragraphs 5 to 10. Paragraph 5 deals with the matter discussed here when the 1947 amendment of the superannuation scheme was being dealt with. Briefly, the position is that primary schools conducted by the Irish Christian Brothers did not become national schools until the years 1925-26. Some of the lay teachers in these schools had given service previously which cannot at present be counted for pension as the schools were not national schools. It has since been felt that these teachers had a strong claim for recognition of that service and the paragraph now gives them two-thirds credit for pension purposes for such service, as in the case of lay teachers at that time in national schools. Something similar was done for the teachers in industrial schools when the 1942 amendment was being passed.

The teachers who were on strike in 1946 received no salary for that period and, consequently, as the existing schemes stand, have lost the time for pension purposes. This paragraph provides that in the case of those teachers who resumed duty at the conclusion of the strike the period of absence shall be reckonable as pensionable service for the purposes of the superannuation schemes. Incremental credit, for which authority of the Oireachtas is not required, has already been allowed and the present scheme gives the teachers pensionable credit for that period. The cost of this concession is inconsiderable and I am sure that, at this hour of the day, the House will agree with the proposal.

Paragraph 7 prescribes that service after the age of 65 years shall not be pensionable. Normally, all teachers retire not later than 65, but there are cases from time to time where permission to serve beyond that age, or to re-employ those who had retired at 65 has to be given owing to a shortage of teachers in perhaps a particular area or at a particular time of the year. The teacher who is continued after 65 will, of course, draw his appropriate salary for such service but it is a rounding off of the pension scheme that is being arranged here, that is, that service after 65 will not be reckonable for pension purposes.

Paragraph 8 is an "abatement" clause. It is customary in official superannuation schemes to provide that, where a pensioner is re-employed in some other capacity and remunerated out of State moneys, the remuneration of the new post shall not raise his income from the two sources beyond that on which the pension was based. A provision of this kind has operated for secondary teachers since 1929 and this paragraph now brings it into force for national school teachers. Existing pensions will not, however, be affected by its terms. Lest there should be any misunderstanding from the insertion of the words in brackets "otherwise than as a teacher," I should like to make it clear that these words do not mean that a pensioner who becomes a teacher may draw his pension pay without reference to the restrictions which the paragraph imposes.

The fact is that these restrictions are already imposed by existing schemes on a teacher pensioner who resumes duty as a teacher in a national school and what the paragraph does is to extend the restriction which already applies to them if they were teaching in a national school to other State employment.

Paragraph 9 brings the pension scheme for teachers into accordance with the new scales introduced on the 31st October, 1946. In the case of a school teacher who retires, or retired, within three years after the 31st October, 1946, when the present salary scheme came into operation, whatever pension or gratuity he was entitled to will be based wholly on the new scales. Under the existing schemes the computation of pension or gratuity is based on the average annual salary for the three years preceding the date of retirement; as a result teachers retiring within the three year period in question suffer by reason of the award being based, for part of the three-year period accruing before the 31st October, 1946, on the lower salary scales then in force. This disability has been the subject of representations and the paragraph now proposed removes this disability in full so that any teacher retiring since 31st October, 1946, will receive the full benefit of the improved scales in his pension or gratuity.

Paragraph 10 affects marriage gratuities. They are at present based on the average annual salary for the three years ending on the quarter day before marriage. As women teachers do not always marry immediately after resignation, it has not infrequently happened that the date of retirement falls in one quarter and the marriage in another. The paragraph brings the calculation in these cases into line with other awards, such as pension, disablement gratuity or death gratuity by making the date of retirement the determining factor in fixing the amount of the gratuity.

I ask the Dáil formally to confirm the resolution.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Táthar chun dhá dtrian den tseirbhís a thug Bráthair Críostúil roimh 1927 a thabhairt dó i gcóir pinsin. Is dócha go bhfuil sin do réir an nós imeachta a bhí ann go dtí seo i gcás aoisliúntas a thabhairt do dhaoine a raibh seirbhís acu sar a dtáinig an réim nua i bhfeidhm. Níor tháinig na Bráithre Críostúla isteach faoin Rialtas go dtí 1927 nó mar sin. Ba mhaith liom mar sin féin go bhfuighidís an tseirbhís iomlán i gcóir pinsin dá mb' fhéidir i n-aon chor é. Tá ard-mholadh ag dul do na Bráithre faoin dea-obair a rinne siad sa sean-am nuair a bhí siad ag brath ar dheontais agus cúnamh airgid ón bpobal. Ní raibh siad ag fáil aon chúnamh airgid i gcóir a gcuid scol náisiúnta ón Rialtas cé go ndearna siad sár-obair ar fad ar son an Chreidimh, ar son na teangan agus ar son na hEireann ar feadh tréimhse fhada de bhlianta.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Do bheadh sé i bhfad níos costasúla. Do bheadh i bhfas níos mó daoine 'gceist agus i bhfad níos mó aimsire.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Tá sé ag dul dóibh ceart go leor. Mar gheall ar Alt a 6, nuair a chuaigh na múinteoirí náisiúnta anseo i mBaile Atha Cliath amach ar stailc, chaill siad cirt phinsiúin i gcóir an ama a bhí siad amuigh ar stailc. Tá aoisliúntas i gcás múinteoirí agus i gcás gach saghas seirbhíseach eile bunaithe ar sheirbhís agus muna dtugann an múinteoir nó an seirbhíseach an tseirbhís sin, ní fhéadfaidh sé aoisliúntas i gcóir an ama sin d'fháil. Agus cé go bhféadfaidh sé bheith inphinsinach go hiomlán do réir dlí don am roimh dul ar stailc dó agus taréis dó teacht ar ais ag obair, caillfidh sé an méid a bheadh ag dul dó de bharrpinsin ins an tréimhse bhí sé ar stailc muna ndéanfaí leasú mar atá dá dhéanamh ins an scéim seo.

Deireann an tAire nach bhfuil suim mhór airgid i gceist. Ní dóigh liom gur ceist airgid ar fad é, ach bhí cás againn cheana ins an Stát, daoine a chuaigh amach ar stailc, dream faoi leith in Oifig an Phoist, agus cé nach raibh siad ach tamall gearr amuigh níor dearnadh aon rud go ceann tamall fada blianta. Sílim gur thóg sé deich mbliana sar ar cuireadh an rud i gceart dóibh. Ceapadh go raibh prionsabal tábhachtach i gceist. Lucht na StátSheirbhísí a bhí i gceist an uair sin.

D'fhéadfaí a rá nach bhfuil na múinteoirí náisiúnta ar aon dul leis na StátSheirbhísí ach dream ana-thábhactach is ea iad agus tá súil agam nach mbeifí ag dearcadh ar an leasú seo mar "precedent" agus nach mbeidh sé le tuiscint ag aon dream, líon mór nó foireann mhór de dhaoine atá ag fáil tuarastail ó chiste an Stáit, go bhfuil cead acu dul ar stailc má tá siad míshásta leis na coinníollacha a bhfuil siad ag obair fútha nó leis an tuarastal agus nuair a bheas an stailc thart, pe'r bith breithiúnas bheas ann sa deireadh, go bhfuighidh siad lánmhaithiúnas, agus mar sin de. Má fógraítear dóibh go bhfuighid lánmhaithiúnas agus nach gcaillfidh siad aon rud agus go bhfuighidh siad na cirt chéanna fé is dá mbeadh siad ag obair in ionad bheith ar stailc, ní dóigh liom gur sompla maith é nó go bhféadfaí bheith ag súil go mbeadh siad sásta gan dúl isteach in obair mar sin go dtí go mbeadh machnamh ceart déanta acu agus ar na torthaí a bheas ann.

Tá fhios agam gur chaill na múinteoirí an tuarastal a bheadh ag dul dóibh faoi na scála nua má ghlach siad leo roimh an stailc nó aon am i rith na stailce. Má dhéanann an leasú seo maitheas sa tslí go ndéanfaidh sé go mbeidh obair níos éifeachtúla dá dhéanamh agus go mbeidh suaimhneas agus síocháin ins an tseirbhís, is dócha go bhféadfaí a rá gur rud maith é. Tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh sé maitheas sa tslí sin agus go bhfeicfidh na múinteoirí nach bhfuil éinne in a gcoinne, mar mhúinteoirí. D'fhéadfaimis ár dtuairmí bheith againn faoi stailceanna agus cumainn mhóra chumasacha thábhachtacha i saol na tíre ag dul amach ar stailc ach, mar a dúirt mé, nuair a bhí an stailc ar siúl, agus mar a theaspáin mé i rith na stailce, níor theastaigh uainn aon phionós a chur ar na múinteoirí nó níor theastaigh uainn go mbeadh aon tsearbhas eadrainn, go ndéanfaimis ár ndícheall chun oideachas na tíre a chur chun cinn, obair mos fearr a dhéanamh sna scoileanna agus, go mór mór, cúis na Gaeilge a chur ar aghaidh mar ba chóir—ní hamháin an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh, ach an sprid cheart a thabhairt do na daltaí scoile ionas go bhfeicfeadh siad go bhfuil níos mó sa nGaeilge ná ábhar scoile, gur rud mór í i saol an Náisiúin agus, má cailltear í, nach féidir í a thabhairt ar ais. Má tá grá ag na páistí don teanga agus má gheibheann siad deashompla ó na múinteoirí éireoidh i bhfad níos fearr leis an obair.

Ritheann Alt a 6 le Alt a 9, is dóigh liom. Is dóigh liom gur buntáiste é sin go bhféadfaimis uilig bheith fabharach dó, sé sin, múinteoirí a bheadh ag dul amach ar pinsean agus a chaillfeadh rud éigin mar gheall ar an stailc, nach gcaillfidís aon rud anois má ghlacann an tOireachtas le huimhir a 9 den scéim.

Mar gheall ar uimhir a 8, níl aon rud le rá agam ach amháin, do réir dealraimh, má gheibheann múinteoir post faoin Rialtas mar chigire scol go mbeidh ísliú ar an tuarastal a gheobhaidh sé má tá pinsin á fháil aige cheana féin. Déanfar laghdú ar an tuarastal dá réir.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Laghdófar ar an bpinsean.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Laghdófar ar an bpinsean. Dá mbeadh an duine, cuir i gcás, ag obair mar mhúinteoir gairmoideachais nó dá mbeadh sé ag obair mar oifigeach nó priomh-oifigeach tinnrimh scoile, níl fhios agam an féidir leis pinsean d'fháil agus tuarastal d'fháil san am céanna. Is dóigh liom, cé go mb'féidir go mbeadh an ceart san rud sin, gur deachair a mhíniú cén fáth a mbeadh deighilt idir an íde a tabharfaí do dhuine a bheadh ag obair faoin Rialtas agus do dhuine a bheadh ag obair faoi Bhord Aitiúil.

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon rud eile le rá agam ach amháin más féidir leis an Aire insint duinn cén costas a bheas ar an Stát mar gheall ar uimhir a cúig agus uimhir a sé den scéim, b'fhéidir go mba chóir go mbeadh sé i dTuarascála Oifigiúla na Dála.

Conchubhar Ó Liatháin

Is beag atá le rá agamsa ar uimhir 4 anseo ach amháin gur dóigh liom gur bé an rud atá dhá dhéanamh ag an Aire an rud ceart agus aon phíonós nó cailliúint a bheadh ar na múinteoirí a chuaigh amach ar stailc a chur ar ceal. Is oth liom, agus ba chóir gur thrua leis an Dáil, gur labhair an Teachta Ó Deirg fé mar a labhair sé. Ní dhéanfaidh sé maitheas ar bith don Teachta ná don Páirtí atá ar aon aigne leis gaimh do na múinteoirí a theaspáint fé mar thaispeán sé. Tá an rud ceart dá dhéanamh ag an Aire anseo. Níl de lucht agamsa ar a bhfuil dhá dhéanamh aige ach nach bhfuil an cheist mhór dá réiteach aige: an cheist atá ag déanamh buartha do na múinteoirí agus do na hiar-mhúinteoirí ar fad—ceist na bpinsean. Má theastaíonn uainn an Ghaeilge d'aithbheochaint, caithfaimid a thuiscint, gur ar na múinteoirí, go mór-mhór na múinteoirí náisiúnta, ata sábháilt na Gaeilge ag braith. Ní deirim gur orthu ar fad mar ní féidir sábháilt na Gaeilge a chur ar na daltaí scoile agus ar na múinteoiri amach is amach agus a rá nach é gnó aoinne eile é, ach caithfimid a thuiscint go mbraitheann sábháilt na teangan ar na múinteoirí. Dá bhrí sin, measaim aon rud a dhéanfas an tAire ar mhaithe leis na múinteoirí agus a thiubhras dóchas dóibh as an Roinn agus as an Aire, gur maith an rud é. Is trua liom gur labhair an Teachta Ó Deirg mar a labhair sé. Ní dhéanfaidh caint mar sin maitheas don tír ná maitheas do chúis na teangan agus ní thiubhraidh sé cabhair nó meanman do na múinteoirí i gcóir na Gaeilge.

I have very little to say except that to the limited extent to which the motion deals with the question of teachers' pensions, that is in so far as it confirms the Minister's previously announced scheme, I think it should be recommended. I would deprecate in the strongest manner possible the attitude of Deputy Derrig in seeking to suggest to the Minister that the service of those teachers who were forced out on strike through the attitude of the Government, of which Deputy Derrig was a member, should not be properly recognised for pension purposes.

Mr. Kissane

He did not say any such thing.

Mr. C. Lehane

That was the clear implication of the Deputy's suggestion about putting people who had gone on strike on an even footing with those who had remained at work. If there was one bad day's work for which Deputy Derrig, the then Minister for Education, was responsible when the strike was over, it was the decision of the Government of which Deputy Derrig was a member and of Deputy Derrig's Department, to pay a special bonus to the scabs and black-legs who remained at their posts.

Mr. A. Byrne

I have a case in mind and I should like to know if the Minister has given any consideration to it. I am sure he will remember the case, the case of Mr. Frank Cahill.

General Mulcahy

This scheme deals with such cases.

Mr. A. Byrne

He devoted 40 years of his life to education, but for a considerable portion of these 40 years he was also prominently identified with the national movement. As the Minister knows, he served his country and served it well. Nevertheless, when he retired on pension a year or two ago, he was not given credit for 40 years' service but only for a term of 18 or 20 years, and he received a pension of only 30/- a week. I know his case will have the sympathy of this House and I should like to know whether this scheme will give to ex-Alderman Frank Cahill, ex-T.D., credit for the service which he rendered with the Christian Brothers in Seville Place as a lay teacher, though I believe that service was not recognised by the National Commissioners under the British régime. On account of the circumstances generally and the fact that Mr. Cahill was so prominently associated with the national movement, I would ask that, if he cannot be given credit for a full 40 years' service under this scheme, he should at least get a reasonable pension instead of the pension on which he was retired about two years ago, a pension, I think, of about 30/- a week.

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Ba mhaith liom a rá sa bheagán atá le rá agam nár cheart aon ócáid mar dhíospóireacht ar mheastachán i gcóir na Roinne Oideachas nó meastachán breise mar atá againn anois a scaoileadh tharainn gan tagairt a dhéanamh don obair mhaith atá á dhéanamh ag na múinteóiri ar son na Gaeilge.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ní Meastachán Breise atá ós ár gcomhair anois.

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Is ea tuigim gur bé atá faoi dhíospóireacht againn ná scéim pinsin na múinteoirí a chuaidh ar stailc sa bhliain 1946, agus ar briseadh an tréimhse orthu chun críocha a bpinsin. Níor cheart don Teachta Conn Ó Liatháin a rá go bhfuil an Teachta Ó Deirg i gcoinne na scéime seo ná go nduírt sé aon ní na coinne ná go bhfuil éinne ar na binnsí seo na coinne, ach, dar ndóigh, ní féidir a thógaint ar an Teachta Ó Deirg ná ar éinne againn-ne má thagraimíd do sheirbhísigh eile an Stáit agus conas a luighfidh agus imreoidh an scéim seo orthu san má bhíonn stailc i gceist aon uair.

Maidir leis na Bráithre Críostúla, ní ceart go mbeadh aon difríocht idir iad-san agus múinteoirí eile maidir le scéim pinsin nó aoisliúntais. Dá mbeadh aon rud mar sin i gceist ba cheart gur ar thaobh na mBráthar a bheadh sé mar níl dream múinteoirí in Éirinn a bhfuil an oiread san a dhéanamh acu ar son na Gaeilge, agus go mór n ór ar son labhairt na Teangan, ná na Bráithre Críostúla.

Is ionadh liom nach bhfuil aon tagairt in aon chor dos na seanamhúinteóirí atá anois ar pinsean agus atá ar an gcaol-chuid chéanna a bhíodar blianta ó shoin nuair ná raibh an costas maireachtála leath chomh hard is atá anois. An mar sin atá na daoine bochta san á scaoileadh tharainn againn tar éis na cainte móire seo go léir? Tuigtear dom go bhfuil cás na múinteoirí sin socair ins na Sé Condaethe cheana féin agus cén fáth ná fuil a leithéid déanta anseo agus is dócha ná beadh mórán thar £4,000 ag teastáil chun a dhéanta.

Tá's agam ná tagann an cheist sin díreach faoin scéim seo maidir le rialacha díospóireachta agus, dá bhrí sin, nílim chun leanúint de ach amháin chun an cheist a chur i gcuimhne don Aire arís.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire, ceist a chuir an Teachta ó Deirg air freisin, i dtaobh múinteóir a eiríonn as a phost mar mhúinteóir agus a gheibheann post eile faoi údárás poiblí. Tá sé leagtha síos sa scéim má gheibheann sé an oiread tuarastail ins an bhfostaíocht nua a bheas níos mó, nuair cuirtear i dteannta an phinsin ná an sean-tuarastal a bhí aige mar mhúinteóir, go gearrfar anuas an pinsean go dtí nach mbeidh an dá theacht isteach níos mó ná an sean-tuarastal a bhí aige. Sé an cheist atá agam le cur ar an Aire ná seo: an mbaineann an riail sin le hobair a gheobfas duine faoi údarás áitiúil nó faoi Bhord a gheibheann a chuid bun-airgid ón Stát nó an amhlaidh nach mbaineann sé ach le tuarastal a gheibheann duine atá ag obair díreach faoi Roinn? Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil an pointe sáthach soléir ag an Aire.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Tá sé an-tsoiléir ar fad.

Captain Cowan

I understand that, so far as this motion is concerned, we can either approve or reject it. That is about all I can do. There is no possibility of making amendments and I take it that the Minister has consulted with the Irish National Teachers' Organisation in regard to this at various stages in its preparation. I surmise that he must have.

General Mulcahy

I would not like to blame them for anything in it but we do our work in close co-operation with them.

Captain Cowan

At least, representations that have been made to me from that organisation raise no objection to this particular scheme. Looking at it from that point of view I take it that no grievance has been raised and that there is some measure of approval by the teachers' organisation. I think there is a substantial measure of justice contained in these new regulations in so far as they provide that those teachers—one might say, all the teachers—in Dublin who participated in the strike will lose no service from the point of view of pension for the period they were on strike. That is a measure of justice that ought to be written into the regulations as it has been done. While that period is over and I do not think it is wise to say anything that might cause any recriminations, it is my sincere wish that through proper co-operation between the Department and the teachers a situation such as is provided for in this particular paragraph of the regulations will never occur again. I, therefore, welcome this motion.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Chuir an Teachta ó Deirg ceist orm: cé mhéad a chosnóidh Mír a 5 agus dúirt mé leis míle agus dhá chéad punt. Annsin chuir an Teachta an cheist orm: cé mhéad a chosnóidh Mír a 6. I deireadh an scéil ar fad, ní chosnóidh sé níos mó ná míle p nt sa bhliain. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil a thuille eolais mar sin á lorg ag éinne, ach i dtaobh an rud a dúirt an Teachta mar gheall ar Mhír a 6, déarfainn gurb é an aidhm atá ag an Rialtas an oiread síochána agus Comhar agus is féidir a bhunú idir na múinteóirí agus an Roinn Oideachais i gcúrsaí an oideachais— gach aon iarracht a dhéanamh a mhéid is féidir linn chun deimhin a dhéanamh de go gcuirfí iarsmaí leanúnacha na stailce ar ceal agus is dóig liomsa go bhfuil an tuairim chéanna ag an Teachta Ó Deirg leis, pé rud eile a dúirt sé, agus tá mé buíoch de faoin tuairim atá aige ar an gceist. Ní dóigh liom gur fiú nó gur gá bheith ag cuimhneamh a thuille ar na rudaí seo. Tá ard-obair á dhéanamh ag na múinteoirí agus chítear anois ins gach tír ar fud an domhain an méid suime atá á chur i gcúrsaí oideachais chun spiorad agus cumhacht na ndaoine a ghríosadh chun trioblóidí a shárú agus a chur ar ceal. Sin é díreach an rud atá in ár n-aigne.

Deputy Byrne raised a particular question with regard to paragraphs. The position is that, up to 1934, the untrained and trained principal and assistant teachers had to pay a contribution to their pension fund. After 1934 that ceased and people who had not been paying pension contributions before 1934 were given credit to the extent of two-thirds of their service up to 1934 for pension purposes although they were not making any contribution to the fund. In the case of the teachers who came in from the Christian Brothers they only came in under the Board of Education from a date in 1925, 1926 or 1927. The scheme did arrange that from 1st January, 1927, the lay teachers who were teaching under the Christian Brothers and who made no contribution up to 1934 would be granted for pension purposes two-thirds of the service for the period from 1927 to 1934, the same as was granted to lay teachers in convent and monastery schools and to certain other people. This now makes provision that the limit date of 1st January, 1927, will be removed and that such service as was given before that date in such a case as the Deputy mentions and some other cases will not be restricted to 1st January, 1927, and if, after the date upon which they were 18 years of age and prior to 1st January, 1927, they did give service they will be allowed to count for pension purposes two-thirds of the period of that service in the same way as they were allowed to count for pension purposes two-thirds of the period between 1927 and 1934 when the contributory scheme was wiped out. To the extent to which service was given before 1st January, 1927, and if the teacher has attained the age of 18 years, one-third of that period will count for service for the purpose of increasing the amount of the pension that will be granted in future.

Mr. A. Byrne

Will they get any retrospective pay?

General Mulcahy

To the date upon which the teacher first received his pension. Whatever increase of pension will be granted under the scheme will be granted to him as from the date he first received pension. The question of the pensioners who retired before the new scheme came into operation has been mentioned, properly and sympathetically, although perhaps the Chair has a right to rule that it is not under discussion here. I can only reiterate that that matter is having the purposeful consideration of the Government at present and that I hope it will not be long before it will be possible to make a statement on the matter. The action that is being taken in ameliorating the conditions under this scheme is an earnest of the Government's desire to deal with the case of pensioned teachers in the most equitable possible way.

Motion put and agreed to.