Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 May 1949

Vol. 115 No. 16

Adjournment Debate. - Rifles for Commemoration Parade.

Mr. Killilea

I handed in this question about ten or 11 days ago to give the Minister an opportunity of investigating further a reply which he gave me to a similar question on the 3rd May. On the 3rd May I asked the Minister for Defence if he would state why an application of the Tuam Brigade, Old I.R.A., for the use of rifles and blank ammunition for their commemoration parade at Kilbannon on Easter Sunday was refused in view of the fact that similar applications were granted for the same day; the Minister replied that particular time saying that an application for the use of rifles for the commemoration of Easter Sunday last was not handed in by the Old I.R.A. but that an application was handed in by myself, and he gave other reasons as given in column 321 of Volume 115 of the Official Debates. Part of his reply said that from the investigations which the officer was able to make in the time available he formed the opinion that the loan did not come within the terms of the Defence Forces Regulations and, accordingly, the application was refused. I further asked him then by way of a Supplementary Question whether the application was made on behalf of the Tuam Old I.R.A. The Minister said:—

"The application was made by the Deputy and it did not assert that it was made on behalf of the Tuam Old I.R.A."

It was made on the 4th April, 1949, and was as follows:—

"I hereby apply for the use of eight rifles and 24 rounds of blank ammunition for a firing party at the graveside of an Old I.R.A. man on Easter Sunday."

Dr. O'Higgins

Signed?

Mr. Killilea

Signed "Mark Killilea". I asked the Minister further questions that particular day and the one thing that struck me was a reply to a further Supplementary Question, where the Ministed stated that again the time available was not sufficient for further investigation. In view of all that and in order to have the matter clarified I decided that I would put down the question again in a different form and, as I said at the outset, I handed in this question some ten or 11 days ago:

"To ask the Minister for Defence whether he has made any further inquiries regarding the application for and refusal of the loan of rifles for the commemoration parade at Kilbannon on Easter Sunday; if he can now give the names of the individuals who made verbal application to the N.C.O. in charge of the F.C.A. at Tuam prior to the written application being made; and, further, if he will state the nature of the inquiries made by the officer commanding the Command prior to the refusal, or whether the N.C.O. referred to above was consulted at any time."

I thought I had put that question down in such a way that the Minister would give a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. However, I was amazed when the Minister stood up and said that the answer to the first question was in the negative and that he had dealt fully with the matter in his reply to the previous question and he did not propose to go further into the matter. One of the things I thought I might get the Minister to do to-day would be to answer a Supplementary Question that I asked him on the previous occasion. I asked him if he had before him a copy of a communication that was addressed to me by the officer commanding and the Minister said he had not.

First of all, I am concerned about the time at their disposal to make investigations in connection with this. The Minister has stated here that that application was made on the 4th April, 1949, and I have here the reply I received on behalf of the officer commanding the Command dated the 14th April, that is, ten clear days later than the application was made. This, of course, is still three days, I think, prior to the date upon which the rifles were required. This communication states:

"I am directed to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 4th instant applying for the loan of eight rifles and 24 rounds of blank ammunition for the purpose stated in your communication ...."

I did not see the communication. I am going on what the Minister has down here. In any case, they say here:—

"——for the purpose stated in your communication and to inform you that the application was duly considered."

That is not in keeping with what the Minister gave me at any particular stage.

"—— was duly considered. The issue of those rifles and ammunition has not been approved of and, accordingly, I regret that nothing further can be done in this matter by this headquarters."

I fail to see any common-sense between that reply and the reply the Minister gave me other than that something has been shelved somewhere. Five times I made application for the use of rifles for a firing party over the graves of Old I.R.A. men during the past 18 months. Last Easter 12-month, 1948, when the present Minister and the present Government were in office in this country I made application—the same Mark Killilea that made this application—for rifles. I made it some 24 hours prior to getting the rifles. I got the rifles and the purpose for which the rifles were required was very well known in the Tuam Gárda Headquarters and was published in the Tuam Herald for two weeks prior to this commemoration being held. I am quite satisfied that the officer commanding the Command made no investigation or, if he did, that somebody did not do his duty in some particular quarter. I do not mind Deputies laughing but I think this is not a matter for a Clann na Poblachta Deputy to sneer or grin or jeer me about.

Mr. Timoney

I was not laughing at that.

Mr. Killilea

Last Easter Sunday this country was called upon by the Government that is in office to-day to celebrate the coming into operation of the Republic. I set out, along with my comrades, to help them in every way possible to commemorate the memory of those who made it possible for you and I to celebrate a republic in this country.

I demand to know from the Minister why some investigation was not made in the proper quarters and through the proper channels so that we might know why those rifles were refused. After the commemoration was held on Easter Sunday, the Old I.R.A. in Tuam met. They were very disgruntled and annoyed at the refusal to give the rifles. If the Minister will look at the Tuam Herald in its issue on the 23rd April he will find that they condemned the attitude of the authorities in very strong terms for having refused to give the rifles. I do not take the Minister's statement as being an accurate description of what actually happened. Two men went to the headquarters of the F.C.A. in Tuam. They made a verbal application to the officer in charge telling him what exactly they wanted. He pointed out quite clearly to them that he would require to have their request in writing. The secretary to the association made an application in my name. He scribbled it out in a hurry. I did not see the application. The reason why they made the application in my name was because of the fact that on six previous occasions I had made application for the rifles and got them. They thought that by making the application in my name, all they had to do was to ask for the rifles and that they would get them. They made a mistake. Anyhow, I hold that if the officer commanding the Command had any doubts about this Killilea chap, or the application, or if he thought that his record was one that would not warrant the giving of the rifles: if he thought he was a person not capable of taking charge of them or of being responsible for the rifles and of seeing that they were brought back, all he had to do was to take up the telephone and ring up the F.C.A. offices in Tuam, and ask the officer in charge there what was the position with regard to the application. If he had done that, the man there would be able to explain to him in a moment or two.

I am satisfied that the information required must have been passed on to the Command with the communication that these men made for the rifles. I do not believe that the officer in charge at Tuam just took the application, stuck it in an envelope and posted it to headquarters without some explanation being given by himself. I would not imagine that he would be so stupid as to do anything of that kind. I am sure he was well aware of the purpose for which the rifles were required. I imagine the next thing that was done within the ten days that elapsed between the making of the application and the receipt of the reply that I read out a moment ago was to ask the Garda authorities what they thought about the application. I believe that was done. During the period of the emergency, I was a responsible officer in the Defence Forces and therefore I happen to know what the regulations are in connection with these matters. I know that paragraph 42 of the Defence Force Regulations states:

"That subject to the recommendation of the local Garda superintendent, which shall be sought in each case the general or other officer commanding a Command area may grant an application or applications for the loan of flags and rifles or the issue of blank ammunition for (a) commemoration parades by members of the undermentioned organisations: (1) the Old I.R.A.; (2) the Citizen Army; (3) the Hibernian Rifles; (4) Fianna Eireann; and (5) Cumann na mBan."

There is a further regulation which says that the articles shall be supplied from the military station or post nearest to the place where the ceremony is being carried out. That is a clear indication to me that this must have been raised with the local Gardaí in Tuam. If it was raised with them, then they must have been terribly stupid if they did not know what this commemoration was all about, because information about it appeared in the local paper which is published and circulated in Tuam, and there was also the fact that a number of meetings had been held by the Old I.R.A. making preparations for the commemoration.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister must be allowed time to reply.

Mr. Killilea

I will not be very much longer. I feel quite satisfied that there is something more at the back of this, and I shall try to be as brief as I can. I am satisfied that there are a number of things at the back of this. I am quite satisfied from the inquiries I have made and from the information that I have ascertained, fairly reliable information at that, that the Garda authorities in Tuam were consulted, and that they thought that this commemoration parade would interfere with the celebrations to be held there on the following day to celebrate the Republic, and that, when they told that to the Minister's officer, he was quite satisfied that they should not go any further with it. I should like to know from the Minister if I was refused the rifles because I was not a fit or capable person of taking charge of or of handling rifles. The authorities knew very well the number of times I had got them for the purpose for which I required them. They knew I did not require the eight rifles to use them myself—I could use only one at a time. They refused them on the point that I was not a responsible person, or else they refused them because Johnny Higgins was shot —killed in action on 8th April, 1923.

Minister for Defence (Dr. O'Higgins)

I see in the last sentence—in the last few words—the reason why this matter has been raised on the adjournment. It is an attempt to stir up all the bitter feelings of 25 years ago that had better be forgotten by every one of us.

Mr. Killilea

Why did you not answer my question to-day and it would not?

Dr. O'Higgins

I did not interrupt the Deputy, and he has taken up 25 minutes of the half-hour.

Mr. Killilea

I beg your pardon. I do not want the Minister to come along with a barefaced lie. Look at the clock.

Dr. O'Higgins

Well, 21 minutes. We are dealing with a regulation which the Deputy claims to be able to read and understand. He read it for us this evening. Quite clearly, he did not either read it or understand it a fortnight ago. This regulation lays down that the full responsibility, either for giving arms or refusing arms, is directly on the G.O.C. The G.O.C. has absolute discretion as to whether he will or will not issue arms, but inside of that discretion and under that responsibility the regulation lays down clearly, beyond yea or nay, to whom and when and under what conditions arms will be issued. The Deputy saves me the trouble of reading the regulation. He says the arms will be issued "on the application of members of the undermentioned organisations", amongst them the Old I.R.A.—on the application of the Old I.R.A. and for the purpose of commemoration. Let us read the regulation which the Deputy has read and which he says he understands. On the application of one of those organisations—that is the first condition; that is binding on the G.O.C. What application was made in this case? According to the Deputy himself, a forgery, branded by the Deputy as a forgery.

Mr. Killilea

Two responsible individuals went in and made the application.

Dr. O'Higgins

I will read the Deputy's own words, if he likes.

Mr. Killilea

I am not disputing it; I will accept what you say.

Dr. O'Higgins

If I go into a fight I do not quit in the middle. The letter was as follows: "I hereby apply for the use of eight rifles and 24 rounds of blank ammunition for a firing party at the graveside of an Old I.R.A. man on Easter Sunday—oblige, mise, Mark Killilea, T.D." Mark Killilea in the Dáil said: "As a matter of fact, I did not see the communication that was sent." This is branded by Deputy Killilea as a forgery. The Deputy did not see it; he did not sign it, but it was sent in his name. Was not that a forgery?

Mr. Killilea

Two men went in and made an application. Tell us something about their application.

Dr. O'Higgins

Was that letter a forgery. Who branded it a forgery? Mark Killilea.

Mr. Killilea

Do not be shelving.

Dr. O'Higgins

And Mark Killilea comes here and asks that an officer holding General rank in the National Army should debase a regulation of that kind—where there is a responsibility on him to see that an application comes from a certain organisation—and that he should give these things on the presentation of a forgery, a letter branded as a forgery by Deputy Mark Killilea. I hope that in the future, as in the past, this country will have the services of officers who are able to understand, comprehend and carry out the regulations, as was done in this case.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 1st June, 1949.