Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Jun 1949

Vol. 116 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 32—Office of the Minister for Justice.

Minister for Justice (General MacEoin)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £46,320 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1950, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice.

Following what has become the settled practice on these Estimates. I propose, if the House agrees, to deal generally with the whole group of Estimates—Votes 32 to 40 inclusive— and not to make separate statements on the separate Votes. When I come to move the Financial Resolutions, Deputies will, of course, be free, with the permission of the Chair, to raise any points that may have been overlooked in the general debate.

The over-all picture as compared with last year is that there is a decrease of some £33,000 in the aggregate for the nine Votes in question. For purposes of comparison, the exact figures are as follows:—Last year, £3,448,930 (including Supplementary Estimates); this year, £3,415,860. The main cause of the decrease is that the Estimate for the Garda Síochána— Vote 33—is down by some £54,000. This is due to the fact that we are budgeting this year for a slightly smaller force as appears on the face of the Estimate. Of course, I do not expect that expenditure on the Garda Síochána this year will be less than it was last year. On the contrary, I expect it to be more, as there will be increases of pay with retrospective effect to be met, and for that purpose there will have to be a Supplementary Estimate in due course. Except in the case of the Vote for the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds—Vote 38—where the increase is due to a provision for additional staff, the slight increases shown in most of the other votes have been necessitated mainly or wholly by the recent general revision of salaries and wages in the public service. There is nothing in the detail of these Votes that appears to call for any special comment, so perhaps I may be permitted to draw attention to some matters of more general interest in connection with the work of my Department.

The crime statistics for 1948 are not yet available in final form, but the provisional figures go to show that there has been a slight decline in serious crime during the past year. In 1948 the total number of indictable crimes recorded was 14,980, as against 15,329 in 1947 and 17,305 in 1943, which was the peak year. It is something that the trend is in the right direction, but I am bound to say that the figures I have quoted are not such as to give any cause for complacency. The amount of serious crime measured by the number of indictable offences recorded is still more than double what it was in 1938, to take a normal pre-war year. Juvenile crime of the more serious kind has followed the general trend and shows a slight decline as compared with the previous year. But here, too, there is no ground for complacency.

So far as non-indictable crime is concerned, there has been an increase in the number of prosecutions for summary offences from 151,690 in 1947 to 168,515 in 1948. A contributory factor has been the increase in the number of prosecutions under the Road Traffic Act. This reminds me that last year when the Votes for which I am responsible were under discussion, there was reference to a number of matters arising in connection with the Road Traffic Act that it would have been more appropriate to raise on the Vote for the office of the Minister for Local Government. Accordingly, it is with some hesitation, lest I may be thought to have set a bad example, that I venture to refer to one aspect of the matter that is literally of vital interest to the public, namely, the number of fatal accidents on the roads. No less than 201 persons were killed in road accidents during 1948. Of these, 78 were pedestrians, 66 pedal cyclists, 45 drivers or passengers of mechanically propelled vehicles and 12 drivers or passengers of horses or horse-drawn vehicles. No one can fail to be appalled by the tragic waste of human life which these figures reveal. However, it would seem that the public conscience has been aroused. There is an increasing awareness of the need for road safety largely, I believe, in consequence of the energetic measures that have been sponsored by the Minister for Local Government with the co-operation of the police and voluntary organisations. As a result, the number of persons killed on the roads last year, though shocking to contemplate and a reproach to our civilisation, was less than in any of the years 1936, 1937 and 1938 notwithstanding that the number of mechanically propelled vehicles registered has gone up since that time by something like 75 per cent. In 1936, for instance, there were no more than 61,000 such vehicles on the register, whereas last year there were 108,000. Non-fatal accidents are down, too, but it would be a mistake to suppose that a true picture can be got from the figures I have quoted without taking into account various other factors (and, notably, mileage) with respect to which precise information is lacking. Nevertheless, it is safe to say that there are encouraging signs that the road safety campaign is having an effect. I trust that I have not been out of order in making these observations or that, if I have, no one will be tempted to follow me, as it is the Minister for Local Government who has the responsibility and is entitled to the credit in this matter.

Turning now to prison administration, I am glad to be able to report that there have been further improvements in prison conditions since last year. It has now been decided to allow all prisoners to smoke, including the inmates of St. Patrick's. Further recreational facilities have been provided by the installation in Mountjoy, Portlaoighise and St. Patrick's of cinema apparatus consisting of 16 millimetre projectors. Prisoners are to have better clothing in future in consequence of the provision of a better quality of cloth. These are some of the ways in which we have sought to make the prisoner's lot a less unhappy one while he is within the prison walls. But we have not stopped there. The Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society will continue to receive support in the form of the increased grant which I announced last year. It has been decided, moreover, that in future convicts who are released before completing their sentences are to be released unconditionally, in the majority of cases, and the so-called ticket of leave, which required the licensee to report regularly to the police, will now be the exception and not, as formerly, the rule. The matter of prison buildings continues to call for attention and, during the year, a beginning has been made with the renovations and repairs necessitated by the enforced neglect of the emergency period. Something has been done this year to improve the quarters of the indoor staffs and in the coming year it is hoped to tackle the prison cottages with a view to effecting such improvements as are practically possible.

Deputies will remember that the need for additional staff in the central office of the Land Registry was foreshadowed in what I said on this subject last year. The requisite provision is being made in this year's Estimate (Vote 38). Because of circumstances outside our control, some of the newly created posts remain to be filled and others have had to be filled by temporary staff, with a consequent loss of efficiency. Accordingly, it cannot be said that our staff requirements have been fully met. The time-lag, which is inseparably associated with the provision of additional staff, has had a more adverse effect in this instance because of the fact that we are witnessing an unprecedented expansion in the work of the central office of the Land Registry. For this reason it has not been found possible, despite the best endeavours of the staff, wholly to avoid delays and to prevent the accumulation of arrears. However, it is hoped to do better in the coming year. Needless to say I am fully alive to the importance to the rural community of the work of the Land Registry and will spare no effort to restore the position though I am afraid it may be some time before there is an inflow of staff sufficient to keep pace with the rapidly increasing intake of work.

I have now concluded such observations as occur to me on topics that appear to be of some general interest. At the end of the debate I shall be glad to deal with any points of detail that may be raised in the course of the discussion and to furnish whatever explanations may be needed.

Mr. G. Boland

I move to refer this Estimate back. I do not intend to call for a division unless I am not satisfied with the course of the debate. The Minister's statement about crime bears out the opinion I expressed during the emergency period. We generally had long debates on that point and I always contended that the increase was due to scarcities and the emergency conditions generally. A lot of people who would never dream of stealing things did so when they found they were in short supply. I must say that I was hopeful that there would have been a greater decrease than there has been. Still, I suppose there is some little cause for congratulation that there has been a slight decrease. It is too bad that the figure is as high as it is. However, I suppose that, so long as we have human nature as it is, we must accept the position. No doubt, 50 per cent. of it could be accounted for in the City of Dublin. That was the case when I was Minister.

We have often had long debates on juvenile crime. It appeared to be the opinion of those who were then in Opposition that the Minister for Justice was responsible for the position arising out of juvenile delinquency, but I always thought the matter would be more appropriate on the Vote for the Minister for Education.

General MacEoin

I agree.

Mr. Boland

When it comes to the stage when the police have to interfere-it has gone very far. There are several factors to be taken into consideration —education, school conditions, home conditions, and, I suppose, another factor would be the Church.

I think the people who should be the last to be blamed were those who had to deal with the matter when it had gone more or less beyond control. There is only a slight reduction in the number. We were all expecting that there would be a bigger decrease. A few years ago there was an attempt made to get the St. John Bosco Society to help the probation officers, but it did not work out, I am afraid, as well as we hoped it would. The intention was to try to get these boys and girls who were on probation to go to night school, and in that way lead them out of criminal ways. There are a number of boys' and girls' clubs which probably are doing good work, but I do not think the idea came up to the expectation we had at the time.

It is appalling to know that 201 persons were killed last year as the result of road accidents. I do not think, however, the facts were as the Minister stated—that fewer people were killed than in years when there were fewer vehicles licensed. Nevertheless, there are too many cases of drunken people driving cars. I do not know what the position is now in regard to that, but I think there is too much of it. Most Deputies who spoke on this Estimate last year dealt with that matter. Coming up to closing time you see long queues of cars outside some public-houses. Now when there are so many cars on the road the danger is twice as great as it was. It is not my business to tell the courts how to deal with these people when charged, but I think they should be dealt with more stringently. Being in charge of a car while drunk is a crime which should not be countenanced.

I was glad to hear about the improved conditions in the prisons. I did what I could in regard to that matter, in spite of the fact that they were compared with the Belsen Camp by some people. If we went much further in providing amenities for persons in prison it would be a question whether there would not be queues waiting outside to get in. The only thing prisoners would be suffering from would be loss of liberty. There was an opinion in the Department in my time which I was rather inclined to share that if there were fewer lengthy terms of imprisonment given, especially to young people, and more rigorous treatment while they were in prison, they might be more reluctant to go to jail than they are at present. This is a question which it is hard to deal with.

We must not lose sight of the fact that when people get certain privileges like being allowed to smoke and being provided with better clothing, which happened in my time in the Department, there is a certain amount of punishment in taking these privileges from them. That may be more beneficial for them than even harsh treatment. If you give them these extra amenities, the threat to take them from them may be more of a deterrent than harsh treatment all the time or the threat of more severe punishment. On the whole, I think that giving them an easier time in jail may have a good effect. Let us hope so at any rate.

As to the question of ticket-leave, that is a matter as to which the Minister is the best judge. There are some cases in which I certainly think it would be undesirable not to attach certain conditions.

General MacEoin

There were some.

Mr. G. Boland

There should be. Only once when I was Minister for Justice had a person who was out on licence to be brought back to prison. In a certain type of case, the Minister would be badly advised not to keep some control over such people who had committed very serious offences. I should not like, however, to hinder their future in any way. I should like to give them every opportunity to rehabilitate themselves. But if a person does something which entitles the State to take his liberty from him and if the State sees fit to release him on licence, I think the authorities should be satisfied that he will behave himself in future.

With regard to prison buildings, I suppose the Minister is not being annoyed by the Minister for Agriculture now in regard to them. When I was Minister for Justice during the war, when you could not get materials to build anything, the present Minister for Agriculture was demanding a new Borstal institution and all the rest. The present Minister for Finance was very flatheamhlach about cash. At that time he wanted to have running water in the cells in Mountjoy. He asked whether it was our intention to degrade people in prison, to make them feel as down-and-out as we possibly could. Last year I suggested that the Minister who suggested all these things might now make some move to give effect to some of the proposals which he made when I was in charge of the Department. I suppose that is a matter for the future.

I do not know whether the site for the Borstal institution which we were thinking of in the Department has been acquired. I made the suggestion last year—it was not altogether my suggestion because it was being considered by the Department—that it might be better to ask the Oblate Fathers to take charge of some of these young fellows who are in the Borstal institution. Some of them are tough lads who have been in jail more than once. If some new institution were being thought of, perhaps a modern prison could be built and Mountjoy done away with. That could not be done in a day, but at least plans in that direction should be undertaken. I do not know whether the Minister has considered that, but we were thinking of it when I was in charge of the Department.

The Minister has told us that they are planning for a smaller Garda force. I do not think that is a wise policy. Last year he said it was not being done for the purpose of economising, but that it was a deliberate policy. I do not think it is justified. However, it is his responsibility. Nobody can suggest that the City of Dublin is over-policed. So far as the country is concerhed, I pointed out last year that most of the small stations had only three Guards and that they were doing very useful work. Unless a man is supposed to work for 24 hours per day, it really means that there is only one Guard on duty at a time; that is if they were to have an eight-hour day like other employees. The Guards are used for all sorts of work and I think that practice should be continued. A lot of the non-police duties performed by the Guards are performed at least as well as they could be by any other officials. When I was Minister, the late Deputy Coogan was against giving any duties that were not police duties proper to Guards in country districts. My opinion is that the Government would be well advised to give more of that sort of work to the Guards. I would be in favour of giving them more pay and giving them more of that inspectorial work. It could be done cheaper and better by them. Very probably a Guard in uniform would get more accurate information from people. The people would be more inclined to tell him the truth than they would to an ordinary inspector. I think that would be a move in the right direction.

I mentioned last year the great help we got from the Guards in 1940 during the emergency. When we found that a parachutist had been likely to be dropped here we were concerned as to what was likely to happen. Practically overnight the L.D.F. sprang into existence as a result of the action of the Guards all over the country. The Guards can be very helpful to the people in many ways. If Guards who are good footballers or hurlers are sent to any area it generally results in that area turning out first-class footballers or hurlers. That is not a thing to be scoffed at; it is very important.

I do not know how much further the Minister intends to go with the cessation of recruiting. The wastage in the force used to be something in the neighbourhood of 200 a year. There was no recruiting last year and there is to be none this year. That means that the wastage will amount to about 400. Unless the Minister has some definite figure in mind which he will be able to do with, I think he is taking a very dangerous line. There must be a big number of Guards coming near the retiring age. Those who came in in 1922 should be coming near the retiring age. If they all go out, unless the training facilities have been greatly improved since I was in charge of the Department, the Commissioner will find it practically impossible to have men properly trained to replace them. I think it is unwise for the Minister to go too far with that stoppage of recruiting.

Every year that I had charge of the Estimates for the Department practically every speaker in the House demanded that houses should be built for the Guards. I think Deputy Davin was always very much to the fore in these matters. I must say I was always very sympathetic to that myself. It was always pointed out that the Guards were already getting housing allowances which at that time would have covered the cost. I know it would not do so now because building costs are so much greater. Certainly something should be done about it.

One of the last things I was responsible for was a Bill empowering the Committee of Public Works to acquire sites so that they could provide both Garda stations and houses. I know that the Commissioner was in a very difficult position both from the point of view of the efficiency of the force and the inconvenience of a good number of the members of the force by the lack of accommodation. Guards he wishes to transfer either for their own betterment or who, for disciplinary reasons, ought to be transferred to some other areas could not be transferred because if they were the house was immediately snapped up by the owner who wanted to sell it at a high price. Certainly, if they built these houses the Guards could be changed as the Commissioner thought fit and it would be better for the Guards, for the force and for the housing situation because these houses would then be available for the members of the ordinary public. The Minister should tell us whether he has taken any step in that direction.

Next I come to the question of Garda pay. I do not want to make any political capital out of that. I know the difficulties. I know that when I was in the Department representative bodies were periodically making demands for increased pay and at no time was I able to meet their full demands. The present Minister for Finance was able to tell me, when I brought in the last Estimate I was responsible for in which increased pay for the Guards amounted to £365,000, that if that was four times as great it would not be too much. That is what he said on that occasion. If I was Minister for Justice with a Minister for Finance like that I would insist on getting the increased pay for the Gardaí dated back to May. If I could not get them any more than they did get I would at least insist that they get the same treatment as the civil servants. One of the remarks I heard, and one I believe myself, is that the reason civil servants got their increase back to May was because they had a representative in the Government. That is the feeling abroad through the country and I share it. There was discrimination there which there ought not to be.

General MacEoin

That they had a what?

Mr. Boland

They had as representative a Minister who was a secretary of a Government trade union. That is as clear as I can make it. The Post Office Workers' Union forced the issue. That is the general opinion. Of all the servants of the State the ones for whom the most effort should be made to keep content is the Guards. They are not too well paid. There should be no discrimination against them, anyhow. Any retrospective payment made should at least go as far back as in the case of civil servants. Apparently, after a lot of negotiation it was put back from January to November. I am surprised that the Minister did not pull his weight to get it put back to May. One cause of complaint would then be removed.

The Minister did not refer to the political situation. There was not much reason to do so because, luckily, there has been no political violence in his time and there had not been, indeed, for about five years before I left office. However, I am sorry to say there has been a big change in the Minister's own attitude on this question. Last year during the debate I did not refer to some of the things I had done. I did not intend to refer to them. I wished him good luck and hoped he would have a happier time in the Department than I had. On the second day of the debate, I think, he actually showed his goodwill by dealing with a matter I had not bothered about. He drew the Chair's attention to the accusation of murder which a member of the House made against the last Government and which I took to mean against myself. When I got up to speak I expressed my appreciation of his action in doing that. That was some time towards the end of June last year. However, about a month after that apparently a campaign initiated by the Taoiseach started off in Skibbereen and continued in three or four other places in which it was actually said that the previous Government had killed people for the difference between the External Relations Act and the Republic of Ireland Act.

General MacEoin

The Minister was not responsible for that.

Mr. Boland

I am going to relate that. In the first speech the Taoiseach said that they would rule the country without a military tribunal, implying quite clearly that the Fianna Fáil Government was anxious to rule with a military tribunal. He apparently forgot that the first military tribunal was set up by the Government of which he was the Attorney-General.

General MacEoin

And opposed by Fianna Fáil.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a bit wide of this Estimate. The Taoiseach made the statement?

Mr. G. Boland

He did. But it is a statement which affects the peace of this country and the good order in this country.

Captain Cowan

I would suggest that this debate is proceeding and has up to the moment proceeded very nicely. I would suggest that Deputy Boland should keep to those lines.

Mr. Boland

If the Deputy had had armed police in front of his house as I have he might take a more serious view of the matter than he does. I expressed my appreciation of the Minister's statement last year. The Chair did not notice it although I heard it quite plainly over here. The Minister apparently felt so much about it that he thought fit to get up here to ask that the Deputy be given a chance of withdrawing the charge, which he did. Then the Minister said, following the lead of the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, that we had executed people without evidence. He said I had left festering sores in the Department when he reached it.

General MacEoin

No.

Mr. Boland

I beg your pardon but that was what was said. I did no such thing. He got an efficient Department; he got a peaceful country. Not a shot had been fired at a Guard since Gárda Mordaunt was shot in 1942. There has not been one since and, please God, there will not be. I deplore the change in the attitude of the Minister. I can only assume it was brought about by his anxiety to please one of the small Parties which form this Government. It is a disgrace that he should have lent himself to it. I will not say much more about it.

A question was asked to-day and so far as I can gather the Minister in his written reply said that the Guards were instructed to pull down a certain poster which was inciting people to violence. He can correct me if I am wrong. In answer to a Supplementary Question he appeared to reverse what he had said in his written reply. He was asked, apparently with reference to the same posters which had been put up by a political organisation, whether this had been completely unauthorised and he said: "Yes, that is so."

General MacEoin

You are wrong.

Mr. Boland

All right. I wanted that cleared up, for this reason that we want to know definitely where we stand in this matter. The Government must have knowledge of these things, and there has been too much of that going on. We have a Party here now. I was glad to see them coming in, whether they believe it or not, in the firm hope that they would get all the elements who thought they knew more than the people's representatives and who wanted to take action—armed action— here in advance of what the people's representatives in Parliament were inclined to take. I was hopeful that that particular Party would be able to convince those people that we were the best judges of what was in the national interest in that way, and that if there was any action to be taken it was the people's representatives who would take it after full and mature consideration. I do not want drastic action taken against anyone, but when I see these posters being displayed and the Government allowing public meetings to be held advocating violence I think that is very foolish.

I will admit that in the first four years of our time in office we allowed a great deal of latitude in that direction and we paid dearly for it. As Deputy O'Higgins has reminded me, we voted against the setting up of the military tribunal. We thought that the powers that were being given to it were too drastic, but I was not long in the Government until I found that they were not too drastic and that they were absolutely necessary. I hope that we shall always have the position in the future when it will never be necessary to use them, but it is not going to help if you allow wild people to go out and make inflammatory speeches calling for recruits for an organisation. I do not know whether it is legal or not; it was illegal in our time.

We are all, I hope, of the one mind in this matter that we want to see this country united and free. We have this Parliament here and, at least, for this part of the country the voice of this Parliament ought to be supreme and nothing else should be tolerated. It is all right when things are quiet to shut our eyes to things. The present Minister for Defence rather exaggerated when he said during the general election that we had forgotten how we —that is Fianna Fáil—had sanctified so-called political crimes by illegally opening the jail gates when we took over the government. He was wrong in that statement. We did not do it illegally. We had authority to do it. If the present Minister for Justice is correctly reported he acted illegally, because he said that he consulted nobody when he let out five prisoners who had been convicted of serious crimes. He said he did that on his own authority. He had no authority whatever to do it.

General MacEoin

I did not say any such thing. I could not let them out myself.

Mr. Boland

You certainly said you did it without consulting anybody.

General MacEoin

Who said this— the Irish Press?

Mr. Boland

The Minister said it in Cardonagh last November. I am not objecting to him letting these people out at all. That is a matter for himself. That was done before this Estimate was taken last year. I left no festering sores, and anybody who was sentenced by that court was sentenced by a court which was set up by the unanimous consent of both this House and the other House. There is no question about that, because during the whole time that that court was passing sentences there was no question raised until after the 1943 General Election. Things were quietening down. I certainly am sorry and I would not have raised this if things had been left as they were. But the Government thought fit, I suppose, for getting a thoughtless and extreme wing to support them, to do this, and I am not going to allow the Estimate to pass without expressing my opinion of the Minister and of the Government. I hope that the result will not be disastrous which it could easily be, unless they decide whether they are going to have one army or not in this country.

Mr. C. Lehane

The activities of this Department which is under discussion are so wide and so varied that it would be difficult for any one speaker to cover them all. I must confess or, let me say rather, I would confess under other circumstances to a feeling of surprise at the method and manner in which consideration of this Estimate was approached by a former occupant of this particular Ministry. I only propose to refer very briefly to what has been said by Deputy Boland. Before doing so I think it is only right that I should tell the House quite frankly— and I say this without bitterness—that the impression that was made upon me by Deputy Boland's approach to this Estimate was this: that the governing factor in Deputy Boland's mind was one of bitterness, a bitterness and a vindictiveness directed particularly against the members of the Clann na Poblachta Party and, generally, against the Deputies sitting on this side of the House, a bitterness and a vindictiveness which is motivated by the fact that Deputy Boland and his colleagues are no longer in the saddle and that they now sit in the benches opposite. Deputy Boland appears to be disappointed—I hope I do him an injustice in this; I would be glad to think that I am mistaken—but certainly the impression that he conveyed to me was that there was a certain sense of disappointment, albeit unexpressed, underlying his remarks, that the present Minister can come to the House with the story of a peaceful and united country, of a country governed without military tribunals and a country without political prisoners rotting in jail.

I think it is only right that I should say this to the Minister, that, generally speaking, the manner in which his Department has been administered since he took office is one which calls for the approbation of Deputies. It may not be the most spectacular of Ministries, but in the life of the ordinary people it is probably one of the most important, and the present occupant has shown by his method of administration that he brings to the discharge of his duties a breath of humanity, a common-sense outlook and a desire to serve the people rather than to pose as one of their jack-booted masters.

There are certain minor matters of policy and administration in respect of which I will disagree with the Minister. One of them already has been mentioned. Reference has been made to the tearing down of a poster, "Arm Now to Take the North". The poster, I understand, was issued by the Aiseirighe organisation, an organisation for whose social and economic policy I have not the slightest use, an organisation which has an attitude towards the organisation of society to which those of us on these benches would be fundamentally opposed but, nevertheless, I think that the members of this organisation were entitled in their poster, as they already had done in their newspaper, to advocate to the Government of this country—because that is what they did—that provision should be made for the arming of the Defence Forces. I am not concerned one way or the other with Aiseirighe as an organisation, but I do know that their attitude in that respect was made perfectly clear in their own weekly organ. I do not know whether it is still published or not, but I know that is the attitude most of them take. So much for the poster.

Now for a minor matter completely unconnected with the train of thought I have been following. The Minister to-day, in response to a Parliamentary question, indicated that he did not think it possible further to control the issue of hackney licences. Just as it is fresh in my mind, I would like to point out to the Minister that there is in this city at the moment considerable hardship being inflicted on numbers of hackney owners totally dependent for their living on hackney driving and, in effect, their living is being filched away from them by individuals doing part-time hackney work. I think the Minister has seen representatives of these men. I have seen them on two or three occasions and I am quite satisfied from the case they made that they are, by reason of the free issue of these licences, being deprived of an opportunity of earning a living.

I should like to say a few words to the Minister with reference to the administration of justice in our courts. I think the matter was mentioned last year by some Deputy—I think by an Opposition Deputy. I referred to it also and the Minister expressed himself as being in general sympathy. I refer to provision for the payment of jurors. I understand that legislation is not necessary in order to effect that. I submit to the Minister that it is undemocratic that there should be a property qualification for service as a juryman. In actual fact, I think the Minister is aware of this also, that there is difficulty on the part of court officials in getting a sufficiency of jurymen to serve on juries in both civil and criminal cases. That is due to the fact that we have in this city a property qualification. That property qualification is not constant throughout the country; it varies from county to county. I urge on the Minister that any citizen—any male citizen if he likes to qualify it so far, though I think we could, perhaps, with good result follow the example of other countries in allowing women to serve on juries—but certainly any male citizen over 30 years and of average intelligence ought in a democratic country be entitled to carry out his duties as a juryman.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Can the Minister do that by administrative act?

Mr. C. Lehane

He can, with all respect. The point was raised on the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Justice last year.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has said what he set out to say, anyhow.

Mr. C. Lehane

I would like to refer the Minister to the necessity for reexamining the position in regard to registration of title both in the Land Registry and in the Registry of Deeds. Members of my own profession in the House will bear me out when I say that it is time there was an examination of the position in both of these offices so that there can be a more speedy registration of title. I cannot suggest the method to the Minister whereby it would be achieved, but I think it would be in the public interest that there should be a greater encourcaus agement to people to take out, at the appropriate time, immediately after the death, grants of probate and administration and that we would not have a position created wherein it becomes necessary at some stage to take out perhaps three or four grants at a time.

I think it is time also that the Minister would consider once more the rates of remuneration of many of the more lowly paid officials working in the courts. It is not a subject upon which I wish to speak at length; I am sure there will be other Deputies speaking after me who will urge consideration for these officials on the Minister, particularly the unestablished officials in the Circuit Courts, but I would not like to be on my feet here without making a plea to the Minister for more consideration of the position.

I do not know whether the question of juvenile delinquency has been actively engaging the attention of the officials of the Minister's Department. If it has not, I would suggest that it should. I do not think any useful purpose is served by painting a gloomy picture, but I think in Dublin it definitely is a problem and I am not sure that the solutions that have already been attempted are real solutions; in fact, I am quite sure that they are not. I think the whole position wants examination. I think we should examine the system whereunder we have a number of men, albeit the number is small, who have a successive history of corrective institution, Borstal, Mountjoy and Maryborough. These are habitual criminals. Where that type of history recurs in any number of cases, there is a definite pointer to the Minister and his Department indicating that he should examine and see if the initial treatment of the juvenile delinquent is not at fault.

I notice that as far as the City of Dublin is concerned—I am not sure whether this is the responsibility of the Minister for Justice or the Minister for Local Government—provision has been made for parking cars. I think the problem of parking and the problem of the speed limit require consideration. I do not know whether the Minister has considered the suggestion previously made that the parking of cars should be prohibited completely in the centre of the city. Every day there are instances in the narrower streets of traffic jams lasting 15 or 20 minutes due to irregular parking. These are due in many cases to the fact that cars are parked in "no waiting" places. The only remedy open to the Guards at the moment is to wait until the delinquent returns. The situation might be rendered much more effective if towing cars were at the disposal of the Guards so that these cars which are parked in the wrong places might be removed by them to some kind of pound.

The Minister's task may have been relatively easy over the past 12 months, but the Minister should realise that he has in key positions in the Garda Síochána men who are inimical to a policy of peace and unity in the Minister's sphere of jurisdiction. I would ask the Minister to accept from me that I do not make that statement lightly. I know what I am talking about. During his predecessor's régime men were placed in key positions in the police force who, in many instances, regard themselves as the servants of a political Party and not as the servants of either the nation or the State. The number is small. I would not like it to be taken that I am making any charge against the Garda as a whole. The number is small, but the positions which these men occupy are important. I ask the Minister to bear that fact in mind if any attempt is made to misrepresent to him the internal position; if that attempt has not been made heretofore, it will be made in the future. It will be made not without the knowledge of the Deputies on the opposite benches.

Last year, when speaking on this Estimate, I appealed to the Minister to allow the bodies of a number of republicans, who were executed during his predecessor's régime, Christian burial at the hands of their relatives. I think it would be ungracious of me were I not to take this opportunity of telling the Minister that his action in acceding to that request was one which was deeply appreciated. It showed a new outlook and a desire to heal, rather than to keep open, the wounds. So long as the Minister pursues that policy he will do a good job of work.

I would urge upon the Minister to ensure that the co-operation between the Special Branch, so-called, of the Garda Síochána with M.15 of the British service and with the police force of that part of our territory which is in occupation ceases to exist. It did exist under his predecessor's régime; if it exists under the Minister's, I believe it does so without his knowledge. I think Deputy Boland was hopeful that he would start a bitter and acrimonious debate. I shall not pursue the line that Deputy Boland, apparently, intended this debate to take. Everything I have said, I have said in all sincerity and in the belief that my statements might prove of some assistance or guidance to the Minister. Deputy Boland and some of his colleagues have filthily, foully and maliciously slandered me. I am not concerned with them. I am well able to deal with them and well able to reply to them elsewhere, but I would ask the Minister to ensure that no matter what attempt may be made from mean political motives by a small minority, let me say, of the Party opposite, nothing will induce him to depart from the wise policy he is at present pursuing.

Mr. Little

I do not know whether I should take the last speaker seriously or not. I am rather inclined to think that the general public who, after all, have a considerable amount of common-sense, are not inclined to take him seriously. What I want to take seriously is the whole line of policy of the Department of Justice. So far as we are concerned, we are very much interested in helping the Minister for Justice to formulate and to pursue a clear line of policy during a time which is pretty dangerous. I cannot help commenting on some of the observations of the last speaker in regard to our policy when in office, though nobody can take seriously the remarks of a Deputy who suggests that the jackboot had been used or that we sought to exercise a certain mastership over certain people who differed from us in politics. The whole existence of the State, and the neutrality policy which was supported by every Party in the House was threatened at that time. That is one of the things that disconcerted me in Irish politics, to find this sordid and cynical alliance between Fine Gael and the people to whom they were so fundamentally opposed during a long period.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

You would have preferred if they had continued to be opposed.

Mr. Little

I prefer nothing other than mental integrity and a continuity of public policy which every honest citizen can understand. Only by an unfair agreement and an unfair bargain, by a sort of conspiracy amongst the rejected minorities behind the backs of the people, was it possible for these people to form a Government.

Mr. C. Lehane

Is it in order for Deputy Little to allege a conspiracy amongst the occupants of the Front Bench?

Mr. Little

The conspiracy which I allege is a conspiracy amongst a disparate number of Parties on the opposite benches to form a Government behind the backs of the Irish people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Perhaps the Deputy would deal with the Estimate now.

Mr. Little

There are certain matters on which we want a clear enunciation of policy from the Department of Justice. To-day the Minister in answer to a question said that the Garda Síochána have not instructions to tear down posters or literature posted up by any political organisation but that they were instructed recently to remove a poster which read: "Arm now to take the North". He hoped the Deputy would not question the propriety of removing that particular poster. Deputy Captain Cowan then asked: "Do I take it that the action of the Gardaí in tearing down political posters—posters put up by political organisations—in those circumstances was completely unauthorised and without authority?" and the Minister said: "Yes, that is so". Well, now, does the second answer not rather contradict the first answer? It does suggest that the people who put up the posters were not a political Party.

General MacEoin

Yes.

Mr. Little

That is very different from Deputy Lehane's statement. He contended that these were put up by Aiseirighe.

Mr. C. Lehane

It was stated at the foot of the poster that it was put up by Aiseirighe.

Mr. Little

The general public would like a clear statement on that matter. The Minister said it was a non-political Party and the Deputy said it was a political Party. I shall leave it at that. I do not want to enter into a political controversy, merely for the sake of a political controversy, but I want to hear a clear statement from the Minister as to his policy.

Captain Cowan

You think that the Guards should be going round pulling down posters.

Mr. Little

Perhaps I can put it in this way. I remember seeing a little dog going out and barking at a donkey and I suppose the dog——

Captain Cowan

You are not suggesting that I am the little dog?

Mr. Little

No. I want to give this analogy without indulging in personalities. The little dog seemed to think that he had power behind him to frighten the donkey but the donkey danced round with all his power and of course frightened the little dog. I do not want to suggest that the threats made by these people are on a par with those of the little dog but if we are going to make war on the North of Ireland that is going to be a mighty tough undertaking for a few people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is nothing in this Estimate about that.

Mr. Little

It arises on this Estimate because it is the declaration of policy —the clarity, the strength and the firmness of the declaration of policy— on the part of the Department which will discredit all that sort of nonsense. It is most unfair not to have that declaration of policy because of the young people who may be misled——

General MacEoin

You are travelling a very dangerous line now, just as dangerous as the poster that was torn down. You should have some sense of responsibility at your time of life.

Mr. Little

That is why we want a very clear definition of policy from the Minister. You cannot slide——

General MacEoin

I am not sliding.

Mr. Little

You are dealing with the whole of public opinion, not with a few individuals. Everybody knows that the former Minister, Deputy Boland, was a most generous man in dealing with his opponents, that he is more quick to forgive an opponent than anybody else but when people say that the last Government killed people for the difference between the External Relations Act and the Republic you cannot expect that statement to go without a very strong protest. Everybody knows the reason why we, as a Government, had to exercise that authority because only a Government can have the power of life and death over citizens and only one authority can have the power of governing any country and of declaring war. That situation had to be dealt with and it was a very dangerous situation indeed.

To pass from these things I can assure Deputies that it is not my wish to enter into this kind of controversy. I do hope that the Minister will also take advice from the experience of a former Minister and do his best to increase the number of Guards. They have been reduced, according to the Estimate, from 7,323 in 1948 to 7,211 this year.

General MacEoin

For the benefit of the Deputy, might I say that in 1939 the total number of Guards was 7,109, and in 1949, 7,292, 200 more than in 1939 and we had enough at that time.

Mr. Little

I would point out to the Minister that on traffic duty alone you require a great many more than formerly.

General MacEoin

There are the figures: 7,109 officers, N.C.O.s and men in 1939, and to-day 7,292 officers, N.C.O.s and men.

Mr. Little

Does not the Minister agree with me that Guards have considerably more duties now than in those days?

General MacEoin

No; we should have less since the end of the emergency powers regulations. They must have had a tough time of it, you know.

Mr. Little

I am sorry that the Minister is not inclined to take my view. That is the only matter which I felt moved to mention and I hope that the Minister, in his reply, will give us a clear indication of what Government policy is.

Mr. Davin

I strongly support the appeal made by Deputy Boland, but I am sure that it is the hope of Deputies on every side of the House to have an improvement where it is possible in the living conditions of the Guards, whether they live in barracks provided by the State or whether they are married men who have to seek suitable housing accommodation locally. I know that in pressing the present Minister I am pressing a man who will respond to that appeal as far as the facilities of the State, financial and otherwise, will allow him. In many areas in my constituency there is a certain amount of jealousy when Guards apply for, or rather secure, possession of houses let by the local authority. As every Deputy knows, and Deputy Boland in particular, the financial arrangements in connection with houses built by a local authority are such that they are intended for civilians living in insanitary and unsafe houses which have been condemned by the medical officer of health, and when there are a large number of applicants for them and when a Guard gets a house there is jealousy. The Minister knows that the Minister for Local Government recently sent out a special appeal to the manufacturers of this country to use their reserve funds, wherever it was possible for them to do so, to build houses locally and supply the need that arose wherever these manufacturing concerns existed for houses for their own employees. I suggest that the State should be the first to give a good example in that direction and employ some agency, the Board of Works or some other State Department, to build a limited number of houses convenient to every Garda station, particularly those manned by a large number of Guards, so that there will not be jealousy or a fight for suitable housing accommodation by married Guards.

Another aspect of this question was brought very forcibly to my notice recently. In the southern area of Laoighis which I have the honour to represent there is one station which has been noted for a number of years for the number of transfers which have taken place from it. The suggestion which I am putting to the Minister and which I have heard locally is that any married Guard who displeases the wife of the sergeant is bound to get the run from there to some other place. It was stated to me in the last few days that the station was run by the wife of the sergeant. It is true, and you can put your finger on the station if you look up the numbers of transfers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is the difficulty.

Mr. Davin

Without any disciplinary reason transfers of married Guards have taken place. When that happens, and even when transfers take place for ordinary reasons, some regard should be paid by the people responsible for the transfers so that proper housing accommodation will be provided for the family of the married Guard who is transferred. I know a married man to whom this happened and Deputy O'Higgins will confirm it I know, only I do not want to name the station. It can easily be picked out. I appeal to the Minister to use his good offices with the powers that be to see that when transfers take place some regard will be had to the need of the wife and family of the Guard who is transferred for reasons other than disciplinary reasons; even if the transfer is for disciplinary reasons such matters should be taken into consideration. Is it fair that a Guard with a wife and four or five young children who have been occupying a house with decent living conditions should be condemned to live in the station to which he is transferred? I know that the Minister does not stand for that kind of treatment, and I would ask him to use his good offices with whatever headquarters officers sanction these transfers. A number of these transfers have been made from headquarters. I know what I am talking about and anonymous letters have been sent in against decent Guards who have given long service, and they are transferred because some person has not the courage to put his name to a document which he has sent in for personal or spiteful reasons.

I join with Deputy Lehane in asking the Minister to deal, in his reply, with an old outstanding claim which has been under consideration for a long period by the Minister for Justice and the Department of Finance in connection with the conditions and position of court officers. If the Minister has not already conveyed his final decision to the people concerned, I would be glad if he would make a statement on it now.

There is another matter and I am not unduly excited about it. Public statements have been made by members of this House, inside and outside the House, allegations and insinuations, against public servants in some cases, as to the extent to which communism exists in this country. I am surprised that Deputy Boland did not refer to this matter because some of his colleagues on the front bench referred to it during the past week. I am surprised that Deputy MacEntee, who has said so much on the matter inside and outside the House, has not come forward now that he is free to put forward any evidence he has in order to help the Minister to deal with a situation which, according to him, is going from bad to worse. I do not think Deputy MacEntee could be muzzled by anybody.

Mr. Little

Perhaps you could help us now?

Mr. Davin

Deputy Boland could say more than Deputy MacEntee.

Mr. Boland

The reason I did not say anything was because I did not want to cry, "wolf, wolf". I know what the situation is and that is why I do not want to say anything about it.

Mr. Davin

It is a matter of public concern, a matter on which the public can become excited and a matter on which I believe there has been a good deal of exaggeration. I listened to a public lecture in the town of Dún Laoghaire, where I reside, by an Englishman, a convert, who is touring the country and dealing with matters of this kind. I listened to him for two hours and 50 minutes and he was the most eloquent speaker I have listened to for a long time. The fact that he was not Irish and was a recent convert may have made him talk so eloquently. He talked of his tour of the country. He had been in almost every diocese and county in the country and he spoke in rather an excited way about the extent to which he believes communism exists in the country. I thought at the end of the lecture that he was unduly excited and did not understand the country. He spoke of one county and I took the liberty of speaking to a high Church dignitary with regard to this report of the extent to which communism existed in that diocese. The bishop concerned did not share the view of the lecturer, but I would put it to the Minister that if he thinks the matter worthy of consideration he should deal with it in his reply. I know that we have some fellow travellers in this country, but it would be queer at this time of our lives if we had not people of that kind. I would be personally concerned that they should not get any facilities to carry on their operations freely here. On one occasion, permission was given—I suppose it had to be given—to a certain gentleman, a Scotchman, I believe, to land here and subsequently deliver a lecture at a well known hostelry in Baggot Street.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Deputy agrees there are some?

Mr. Davin

Of course, I agree, I am not a foolish fellow like the Deputy. The Deputy knows it better, but will not admit it.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I want Deputy Davin to admit it.

Mr. Davin

I prefer to bear in silence the allegations made by some of the front bench members opposite without producing any evidence in support of them. I want to say to the Minister that I do not wish gentlemen of this kind to get permits to come in or facilities to carry on their activities in connection with the spread of communism. I will support the Minister in any reasonable action he may take to deprive such people of those facilities. We have certain places in this city of Dublin where lectures are delivered by certain gentlemen in connection with communism and communistic activities. Every Deputy who concerns himself here with the public welfare knows that perfectly well. I am only urging the Minister to use whatever powers he has, in a common-sense way—and I know the common-sense way the Minister always acts and will act—to see that people of that kind, whether Irish citizens or otherwise, do not get any facilities to carry on their operations.

Mr. P.J. Burke

This is a very important Department of State and it was rather interesting to listen to Deputy Davin a few moments ago saying we had no communists in the country at all and then saying——

Mr. Davin

I did not say that. I said I was not unduly alarmed.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Then he went on to enlighten me and other Deputies and the Minister for Justice by saying that there were special lectures by people who called themselves communists in this city. With those few remarks, I will await more enlightenment from the honourable Deputy on this particular point.

I welcome Deputy Lehane's conversion to constitutional ideas. He accused my honourable colleague, Deputy Boland, of being uncharitable. Deputy Boland, as Minister for Justice during a very turbulent period in this country, was very charitable and very lenient and was anxious at all times to avoid anything that would be responsible for causing trouble. His hand was forced and the hands of the Government were forced to do things that no Government wished to do. He had been accused by Deputy Lehane of being bitter and disappointed. His opening speech here after the change of Government was to wish the present Minister for Justice luck in his undertaking in that Department. If that was bitterness or uncharitableness, he would not have adopted that line.

We are facing a position in our country where the Department of Justice has taken, and will have to take, an active part in protecting what a number of Irishmen have gone to premature graves to attain, that is, that this State should remain a democratic State and that this Parliament should be always supreme and that no other forces—misguided forces—in the country should carry on anything contrary to the wishes of this Parliament. We hope that anybody who has any influence with people of that kind will ask them to adopt the constitutional issue as far as we are concerned here. People who come along and propose from time to time to do certain things in the interest of the Irish nation should by this time have realised that we have a free Parliament and a free country, so far as the Twenty-Six Counties are concerned, and that we should carry out anything that is needed from this Parliament here.

There was a discussion here on better prison treatment. As Deputy Boland pointed out, some members of the present Government, when they were in opposition, criticised the Department of Justice for not adopting more reformed ideas and principles with reference to prison life. As to what could be done with the prisoner—let him be juvenile delinquent or advanced criminal—I believe you will get more out of him, from a human point of view, by trying to reform him inside the prison, by giving him better conditions. If you give him harsh treatment, you are going to put him up against society and when he comes out he will take any opportunity he can to have his revenge on society.

We are dealing here with the ordinary criminal, with the child delinquent. This is a point to which I have given some study for some years and I definitely say still, as far as the Department of Justice is concerned, that we have not advanced in regard to child delinquency as far as I would like to see us advancing. We have reached the point where it must be admitted that mental specialists should be put in charge of child delinquents. While we have probation officers there, we have carried on in a reasonable way, but not as far as I would like to see that work done. By proper treatment of the child delinquent, we may stop a child from a life of crime. I have listened to many a sad story from a child starting off at 16 or 17 years of age, going along the years and perfecting his criminal education inside the prison walls. If the child is got in time and handled properly and treated for the disease with which he is affected, he may, instead of being a criminal and being a pest of society, become a decent citizen of the State. I advocate any improvements that would be responsible for changing people who commit crime and continue to commit crime. Anything that can be done to remould their characters is to be strongly advocated. Remember that you can always get more out of men or women by leading them in a kind way rather than by driving them. There is something in human nature that, if you keep driving them and persecuting them you only make them more inhuman than they are.

With reference to Garda pay, I am very disappointed that the present Minister for Justice is not doing something worth while on that point. I subscribe to the views of Deputy Boland when he said the Gardaí should be treated the same as civil servants. If the civil servants can get their pay from a particular point or from a particular time retrospectively, I do not see why the Gardaí should not get it also. I have had information for some time that some of our trained Gardaí, with nine or ten years' service, are resigning and leaving the country. That is a very bad state of affairs. I do not see why their conditions should not be made satisfactory, and, if we treat one type of public servant in one way, we should treat other types in the same way.

Reference was made to the housing of Guards, a very contentious matter. I strongly recommend that the Minister should take it into serious consideration and that, especially in rural areas, he should build houses for the Garda adjacent to the barrack or in the district. In present conditions, they are applying for council cottages, which sometimes gives rise to local enmity. By reason of the scarity of houses, they have sometimes to live in hovels under shocking conditions. Now that things are coming back to normal, I strongly recommend the building of these houses for the Gardaí. With regard to the bicycle allowance, members of the Garda have complained to me that the allowance is very small, especially for those Gardaí who have to do a lot of bicycle duty.

I must take serious cognisance of the statement made by Deputy Lehane regarding a political police force. It is very easy to come in here and point the finger at certain members of the force and allege that they are friends of a political Party—I use the word allege with emphasis—but I do not think it is a fair thing for any Deputy to do. The force, when asked to do their job during the emergency, did it well. They were responsible for recruiting into the emergency services and in that respect they did much good work. They preserved the integrity of this State in so far as it was humanly possible for them to do so and it is not fair that any Deputy should take advantage of the privileges of this House to make that allegation against them. If there is any ground for it, the Deputy has another way of drawing attention to it. No names were mentioned, but I would prefer to hear names mentioned than that it should be done by innuendo, with the implication that they were told to do certain things and that crime was to be manufactured. The allegation was not worthy of the Deputy.

The Garda have many duties to discharge, apart from their ordinary duties, but notwithstanding that and notwithstanding the unemployment position, I see that the force is to be reduced. I wonder if the Minister is wise in adopting that policy, in view of traffic conditions in our cities and towns. He gave us the numbers in the force in 1939 and 1949, and it is a matter he should reconsider because there are a number of fine young fellows going away in the emigrant ship day after day who could possibly be recruited into the Garda.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

How many does the Deputy suggest?

Mr. P.J. Burke

I am not the Minister for Justice.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

You are making the suggestion.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The issue of hackney licences is a rather hackneyed question, because it has been raised on several occasions. It has been represented to me by people who are associated with the hackney business that their livelihoods are being snapped away by part-time hackney people who take on hackney work after their ordinary day's work. I understand that the Minister had the matter under consideration some time ago and that he received a deputation in connection with it. I do not think that these part-time people should be allowed to compete with those who are making their livelihood solely from the business.

It is about time the jury system was extended to people other than property owners. In rural parishes in my constituency, jurors are summoned for service rather often, and, while they may have a little property, a number of them are struggling people who have to leave their work at great inconvenience. I am not objecting in any way to the jury system, but I suggest that it should be extended to people other than property owners. It is, I agree, another day's work, but such an extension would mean that the people I refer to would not be called for jury service so often. Another Deputy referred to the payment of jurors and an extension such as I suggest would mean that jurors would have to be paid because a man cannot be expected to be at the loss of his day's pay by reason of serving on a jury. Finally, there is the question of the lowly paid officials, district court clerks. I make a passing reference to them because I have received complaints from them from time to time.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I should like to express agreement with the views put forward by Deputy C. Lehane. It would be very regrettable if this debate were allowed to travel along the lines which Deputy Boland and Deputy Little endeavoured to turn it. Deputies should appreciate the presentation of his case by the Minister and should heed the appeal made by him that the debate should not be turned on to a wrong track. I should like also to say to both Deputy Boland and Deputy Little that, in so far as their efforts are deliberately designed to try to stir up any past division or past bitterness which the formation of this Government has healed, and particularly in so far as they endeavoured to do that for purely political purposes, their efforts, so far as Deputies on these benches are concerned, will have no effect whatever. The sooner they give up the better for themselves and the country as a whole. I do not want to dwell at any great length on this subject but I do think it is very regrettable that the two speakers who opened the debate for the Opposition should have set out on what appeared to me to be a very deliberate effort to create mischief, obviously for the purpose of gaining some Party political advantage, although I cannot see how they can get that because, if it comes to comparisons, they will not come very well out of it.

I was glad that the Minister for Justice set another headline in the debate, that was, the example of brevity and I hope Deputies will feel inclined to follow it. In his short statement the Minister, nevertheless, covered most of the ground which he should cover. The figures he gave in relation to the decrease in crime are satisfactory but, as he said, there is nothing to be complacent about.

Most Deputies will welcome what the Minister had to say regarding prison conditions. Without any question of political controversy, perfectly sincere differences of opinion may exist as to what is the best approach to prison treatment. I was glad that Deputy Boland at least conceded that the present Minister was, if you like, experimenting to a greater degree than he had experimented and that as a result he may get better results.

Last year on this Estimate I mentioned only one point which I asked the Minister to consider in the course of the year, that was whether some discretion should be allowed to judges to give costs against the State when criminal proceedings are dismissed. I did not develop that last year because the time was limited and the Minister wanted to reply. I would like to say a few words on it now.

Major de Valera

Would that not be a matter for legislation?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I was going to put that query to the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister would know better than I if that could be done without legislation.

General MacEoin

There would have to be legislation.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

In that event I can only make passing reference to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is all.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I would like again to ask the Minister to consider that question. I think the arguments which can be advanced in favour of it are self-apparent and that it does not need any great advocacy. I would like to know the arguments against it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Which the Minister, of course, would be out of order in giving.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Possibly. I will leave it at that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy did not transgress very much.

Major de Valera

Costs against the State, is it?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

There is another question that I should like to touch on. Again, I am not aware whether it would require legislation or not. At any rate, it has an impact on the administration of the Minister's Department in so far as the District Court is concerned. There was a Parliamentary Question put down by Deputy Peadar Cowan during the year with regard to the possible use of mechanical aids or mechanical assistance in taking depositions in the District Court. I do not know whether it is required by legislation that depositions should be taken in longhand and in the method with which every lawyer is familiar but, if the Minister could alter that position without legislation, it would be worth trying.

There is no doubt that in the Dublin Metropolitan District most of the time the District Court lists are clogged up and badly in arrears and it is not infrequent that cases where depositions will be taken are mentioned in court once or twice merely for the purpose of getting a date fixed. Frequently, the date on which the district justice can give his entire day or possibly two or three days to the case may be two or three months after the original charge is made. Then the accused and his lawyers and the State Solicitor may have to spend anything from a day to a week sitting in the District Court while the very slow process of taking depositions is carried out. That is because depositions are taken in longhand. Naturally, the evidence must be given slowly and often must be repeated two or three times in order to ensure that it is taken down accurately. My view is that nothing would be lost by allowing shorthand or palantype to be used, by allowing the evidence initially to be taken down by some short and rapid method and then, in the outer office, transcribed into longhand and read over to the witness in the presence of the district justice. I think the work would be carried out in one-half or one-third of the time that is at present occupied. That would free the entire lists and there would be consequent saving to the State in the cost of the general administration of the District Court. That is a matter to which the Minister might give further consideration. In his reply to Deputy Cowan's question he indicated that he would consider the matter.

There are two points that I had intended mentioning last year. They may be minor matters but they affect the ordinary citizen to some extent and very often in a very personal way. I want to preface my remarks by making it quite clear that I am not in any way referring to the Garda Síochána as a body, nor am I referring to the majority of Guards but I would like to say to the Minister for Justice that one or two ill-tempered or bullying Guards on point duty in the city of Dublin can do far more harm to the reputation of the Garda Síochána as a body than anything else I can think of at the moment. Every now and again, motorists, pedestrians or cyclists come across examples of what can only be termed very bad manners, to put it mildly, on the part of some members of the force. I appreciate that these Guards have a very difficult time, that with the pressure of traffic in Dublin at the moment their nerves must be fairly well frayed towards the end of their period of duty but, nevertheless, I have frequently received complaints from all types of road-users, motorists, cyclists and pedestrians, that there is an occasional Guard who appears to go out of his way to have a bit of sport when a person breaks a traffic regulation and who will go out of his way to bait the offender. I do not think that is at all widespread. I think it is a very occasional Guard who offends in that way but that occasional Guard damages the reputation of the force as a whole. I would like the Minister to indicate what type of instructions are given to the Guards prior to their going out on duty of this sort and I would ask him generally to look into the matter.

The other point I want to make is not in connection with the Guards but in regard to the civic spirit of the citizens. I think lawyer Deputies will again agree with me that one of the difficulties that litigants—in road accident cases particularly—are up against is the very great reluctance of people who witness accidents to give their names to the Gardaí or to the victims of the accident even when they are asked on the spot for their names.

Major de Valera

Do you blame them, sometimes?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

It may be that there are reasons why they do not want to. There obviously are. My complaint is that it shows a very poor civic spirit to adopt that attitude. Very frequently the outcome of litigation arising out of a road accident may be of very vital importance to the plaintiff or to the defendant, as the case may be. People who are in a position to give evidence with regard to the facts, and who refuse to come forward or who withhold their names if requested to give them, may be doing a very grave injury which could be undone or which might never happen if they were to come forward, as I believe they should come forward.

I do not know whether the Minister can really do very much in regard to a plea which I desire to make on the question of District Court prosecutions for traffic offences. Frequently the period between the occurrence of the offence — it may be an accident, it may be a breach of some traffic regulation— and the hearing of the complaint in court is as long as three months. I believe it is practically impossible for witnesses who do come forward or for the participants in the accident or in the incident to give accurate evidence after a lapse of three or four months. The Minister should, if he possibly can, endeavour to speed up the whole process between the time of the occurrence of the event and the hearing of the complaint.

I hope this Government, in making appointments as State solicitors, county registrars and so forth will not follow the example of their predecessors in office. It is probably well known to Deputy Lemass and to Deputy de Valera that Fianna Fáil made no secret of the fact that they made those appointments on a political basis. I am not saying this for the purpose of starting a controversy. I think that that is admitted and that it was, in fact, proclaimed by Deputy Boland when he was Minister for Justice that Fianna Fáil exercised patronage in these appointments. I think the way it was presented probably was that if they got a good man who was politically right they would appoint him in preference to another good man who was politically against him. I would suggest to the present Minister that that system should be departed from and that, in arriving at decisions with regard to appointments to these various posts, he should deal with the question of experience and merit alone and have no regard to a person's political views. Deputy de Valera appeared to doubt my statement with regard to the policy adopted by his Party in this regard. In order to relieve any doubts he may have I want to say that Deputy Boland, when he was Minister for Justice, was quite honest and open about it. He made no secret of it and a certain amount of credit must be given to him for that. Speaking on this Estimate in the year 1945—I think he was replying to the debate—Deputy Boland is reported in the Official Report, Volume 96, column 2143, as saying:—

"Deputy Costello talked about patronage in the appointment of State solicitors, county registrars and others. I frankly admit that there is patronage in the making of these appointments. The State solicitor is appointed by the Government, and, generally, if he is a good solicitor and a supporter of the Government, he gets the job. I do not deny that."

Deputy Boland was quite frank about it. I believe that that is an entirely bad system and that although the boot may now be on the other foot the present Minister should see to it that that system will not be operated by him and that the question of a man's politics will not enter into the making of appointments one way or the other. I sincerely hope that subsequent Fianna Fáil speakers in this debate will not follow the example of either Deputy Boland or Deputy Little. If they make up their minds to approach this debate constructively a lot of good work can be done. It may be a pity that we have to discuss Estimates during by-elections—I hope West Cork will not weigh too heavily on their shoulders.

Dr. Maguire

Deputy Davin referred to the question of houses for Gardai. So far as urban areas are concerned I certainly admit that perhaps some ill feeling is aroused occasionally by the allocation of a vacant house to a Garda. It so happens that when that Garda officer is eventually transferred and succeeded by another the position is not changed; the succeeding officer generally occupies his house. It has just occurred to me that in the old days — I am sure the Minister remembers it himself—the police barracks, rather large buildings, were occupied by two or three police officers and their families on many occasions. I was wondering if, in order to relieve the housing shortage in a number of towns, the Minister would consider suggesting to his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, the conversion of these large buildings into suitable flats for Garda officers. I do not think it would detract from the efficiency of these officers in any way and, in fact, I do not think it detracted from the efficiency of the former occupants. I think it is a matter for consideration. It appears to me—going, as I have on occasion to go, into those large buildings and finding only two rooms occupied while other portions of the town are congested—that a certain amount of congestion could be relieved by the suggestion I have made.

I want now to refer to the uniform of the Gardaí. I think the Minister was asked a short time ago in this House about an alteration in the uniform and, as far as I recollect, he declined. The Minister must be aware that there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction in the force in regard to the uniform. I have been approached by many Gardaí——

General MacEoin

Young fellows or old fellows?

Dr. Maguire

I will admit that I think the older chaps are satisfied with what they have got and that they are prepared to put up with them for their time in the force. However, that should not deter the Minister from placating the younger sections of the force who are undoubtedly dissatisfied with the uniform. There is one part of the uniform which I consider an atrocity and that is the greatcoat. It appears to me simply to hang on many of its wearers. Sartorially, I believe we are inferior to many police forces in the world, particularly to our neighbouring police forces. I do not say that clothes make the man by any means, but I do think that a smart uniform does tend to increase the efficiency of a force. I wish the Minister would reconsider his decision in that matter and not only change the style of the uniform, but also the material, which I think is appalling as compared with the material of the uniform of other police forces which I have had occasion to notice. I certainly cannot pay much tribute to the original designer of it.

I am glad that the Minister has taken some steps towards increasing the pay of the Garda. I hope that whatever decision is come to, the figure decided upon will be adequate to ensure that no police officer will feel called upon to indulge in any sideline on an agricultural or commercial basis or any other type of business to augment his income. There are a number of cases of that kind. I am sure the Minister knows that that obtains anyhow to a certain extent. The Gardaí should regard themselves as full-time officers, adequately paid, satisfied, and not called upon to indulge in those pursuits, because I feel that if it were to extend to any great degree it might possibly lead to abuse and certain difficulties. I do not say for a moment that I would disapprove of their hobbies, even though these hobbies may result in a small return in a monetary way.

I have spoken here before concerning the question of drivers' licences and I again ask the Minister to take steps to see that the indiscriminate issue of drivers' licences to people ceases and that certain tests, medical and otherwise, are carried out to ensure that the holder of a driver's licence is a proper person to drive a potentially lethal weapon such as a motor car.

I also on a former occasion suggested the formation of a mobile police patrol. I have not seen any of them yet, but perhaps the Minister might think something about the suggestion. I feel that as time goes on and as the number of motor cars increases out of all proportion, as they have done in the last few years, the menace calls for something of the kind and I certainly think it would bear fruit.

Another matter I want to mention to the Minister concerns my friends the tinkers who overrun the countryside. I want to tell him that they are on the increase even since the last time I mentioned them in this House. I should like to point out to him that not only have they ceased to be controlled by the Garda, but the position is almost reversed. I have seen them on occasions coming in and taking possession of a fair green and they are almost impossible, when they arrive in herds as they do, of control by the small personnel of the existing force in a town. They live in a scandalous manner under perfectly insanitary conditions. The children are brought up totally illiterate and I feel that some steps should be taken to segregate those people and bring them within the control of the Garda. Cruelty to animals which they own is another aspect of the matter. These unfortunate animals, usually the discards of farmers, are treated in an abominable manner. It is pathetic to see them at night tied to a gate or a tree. It certainly is a reflection on the people of the countryside, who stand for this kind of cruelty to these unfortunate animals.

Mr. McQuillan

They are generally let into a field at night.

Dr. Maguire

The Minister also knows that the depredation they commit, breaking down fences and destroying the crops of farmers, is a matter which deserves serious consideration. It is impossible to deal with them. It is very seldom they are brought to justice. If there is such a thing as a prosecution against them. they generally fly off to some other territory. The Minister, I am sure, has noticed the appalling conditions in which these people leave their camping sites, when they do leave them. Despite this and despite the scorched earth policy, shall I say, of these vagrants, there are actually people to be found in this country who regard them as an addition to the picturesque amenities of the countryside and even write about them. Other countries have dealt with them, perhaps some in a more harsh manner than I would like. At the same time, I see no reason why we should not attempt to deal with them here and try to confine them to certain areas where control can be exercised over them by the Garda and the local authorities.

The question of juvenile delinquency has been referred to. I brought to the attention of the Minister a sentence on a child found guilty of damaging a county lawn tennis club along with two others. He was sentenced to be punished by the parents in the presence of a Garda. I do not think that is fair to the Garda, to say nothing about the boy or the parents. In this particular case, the father submitted a medical certificate stating that, for medical reasons, he was incapable of punishing his boy; whether in the presence of the Garda or not I do not know, I expect it was. This certificate was ignored by the district justice and the child was sentenced to a month's detention in a reformatory. A few days previously a dairy proprietor was fined £10 for employing two men who were milking cows after their hands had been soaked in liquid manure. That is very disproportionate in my opinion with the sentence on this child.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy suggest that the Minister has control over the Judiciary?

Dr. Maguire

I am afraid I am not quite certain on that point. Anyhow, I think the House will agree that it is not a Christian approach to the solution of juvenile delinquency.

There is just one other matter I would like to ask the Minister. When representatives of other countries are in the Republic and crossing the Border these officers in the Border town might be informed of their intended arrival and departure so that perhaps the necessary courtesies might be accorded them as on the occasion of their arrival in this country.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

There are only a few matters I should like to speak on in relation to this Estimate. First of all, I should like to renew the plea I made last year to the Minister in connection with the pay and conditions at present applicable to unestablished District Court clerks. I heard Deputy P. J. Burke make a passing reference to them here to-night but I do not know whether any Deputy gathered from what Deputy Burke said the real conditions affecting this particular class of civil servants. In a lot of cases they have been employed by the State since the establishment of the District Courts. Some of them played a very important part in the successful working of the District Court system which was an entirely new court in this country established under the Courts of Justice Act, 1924. There are only a small number in this country who are unestablished now. They have been fighting and agitating through their recognised association for better recognition of their claims for a number of years back. I think they had seen some prospect of success in the year prior to the emergency. During the emergency, at the suggestion of the Government of the day, they agreed to forego their claims until conditions would return to normal. In the last 12 or 18 months they have repeated their claim for better conditions and for establishment.

I know that the Minister has interested himself in their grievances and I should like to pay this tribute to him. One of his very first steps as a Minister was to receive the accredited representatives of these District Court clerks, to discuss with them their grievances and to consider what they had to say in the way of a solution. I do ask the Minister to speed up this matter as far as he possibly can. I appreciate that it is not merely his own Department that is concerned with it but that it is a matter also for the Department of Finance. These men have given good service to the State. They are small in number. Their political significance is not very great but they are the backbone of the judicial system, particularly down the country, and they certainly have given excellent service. Their rates of pay are a scandal. Their prospects, if the present conditions are to remain, are also scandalous and I hope that the Minister will bring this matter to an end as quickly as possible.

I should also like to refer to one other matter of which I have some slight particular knowledge in relation to the Garda force. Much has been said this evening about the Gardaí and I do not want to go over any of the ground that has been covered here. I do know that there are certain officers of the Garda force that appear to me to be suffering from some slight injustice. These are officers who were promoted sergeants under the 1924 regulations, roughly within a short while of the commencement of the force. Some of these sergeants, in order to obtain promotion, had to undergo tests and examinations and eventually qualified to hold what, I understand, is called Class 1 (a) Literary Certificate. Subsequently, in connection with some of these men demotion took place—demotion which was necessary from the establishment point of view—and some of these officers reverted to the rank of Guard. The Class 1 (a) Literary Certificate which these officers held under their original appointment as sergeant is, I understand, the highest certificate which a member of the force may obtain. At present, for a member of the force to be promoted to the rank of sergeant he must at least have a Class 3 (a) Literary Qualification so that the holders of the other Class 1 (a) Literary Certificate are in possession of qualifications higher than is now required for the rank of sergeant. On the demotion of some of these sergeants to the ranks many of them felt, as the years went by, that they would be entitled to promotion back again to the rank of sergeant with service and under regulations subsequently made. But apparently that has not taken place. These men are now told that if they are to become eligible again for promotion to the rank of sergeant they would be compelled to undergo a fresh examination, a necessity which is not ordained for holders of lower literary qualifications in the force. I do not know how many Garda officers may be affected by this, but I know some certainly are and it does appear to me that that is an injustice which is caused by some lack in the regulations governing the force. I would ask the Minister to have that particular matter sympathetically examined.

Might I also say this to the Minister, arising out of a number of complaints that have been made to me from my own constituency of Leix. I am told that from time to time in certain parts of Leix the practice of what is called "lamping for rabbits" is pursued at night by a number of people throughout the country. For this particular way of catching rabbits a number of men go out from some village or town into the fields with very powerful battery lamps in their possession. They suddenly flash on these lamps, dazzle the rabbits and catch them. This practice has caused, particularly during the spring, considerable damage to sheep and young cattle. One can well imagine the effect on sheep of a powerful light suddenly flashed out in the middle of a field where they might be grazing. A considerable loss of stock has been caused, both of sheep and cattle, by this practice. It is, of course, illegal. I do suggest that in the interests of the small farmers and, indeed, of the larger farmers, too, that the Guards should be more strict in the supervision that they exercise in relation to this particular matter. Needless to say, the people who go out lamping for rabbits are well-known to everybody. No one is going to blame them very much, but the Guards should try to ensure that, when those people do go out, they will keep away from fields in which there are sheep or cattle grazing. I hope this matter will have the attention of the Guards during the coming year.

I should like to associate myself with the remarks made by some Deputies on this side on the question of the taking of depositions in the District Court. It is a matter that should be examined by the Minister. We are all aware of the delay which the present practice so often occasions in the despatch of business in the courts, and anything that can be done to enable the machinery of the law to function more quickly should certainly have the attention of the Minister. The taking of these depositions is a matter which has always been commented upon by people in the courts as a very significant cause of delay. I trust that the Minister will consider the suggestions that have been made to him in the course of this debate.

Within the last two weeks or so two new district justices have been appointed. I should like to congratulate the Minister on both appointments. Naturally, I am not going to discuss the individuals concerned, but I do want to express my satisfaction that the Minister has appointed, as permanent district justices, two men who in the last three years were appointed from time to time for temporary work. There has always been much criticism of the practice of appointing temporary district justices and for obvious reasons, I think it is one that should be discontinued. It is not satisfactory to litigants, to practitioners or to the temporary men themselves. Apart from anything else, it means, should they find it necessary to go back to their profession either as a solicitor or barrister, considerable personal loss to themselves. It is not satisfactory in any way, and I am glad that when two new permanent justices had to be appointed that the two men who, I think, had the longest temporary service were appointed. I am also glad that in the appointment of both these men political considerations did not enter into it. I think I am entitled to say that these two appointments certainly show that both service and merit were the first consideration with the Government in making the appointments.

I should like now to deal with some rather mundane matters. Some years ago, an Act was passed by the Dáil dealing with the maintenance and upkeep of courthouses throughout the country. The need for that legislation was very apparent at the time because up to that period neither the duty nor the right relating to the repair of courthouses was very clear. As a result of the passing of that Act the position in that respect was clearly established.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does it fall under the Department of Justice? I thought it was for the county councils.

General MacEoin

It falls on the county councils.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I understand that the duty falls on the county registrar who may require the county council to do certain works in the case of the courthouse.

General MacEoin

That is right.

An Ceann Comhairle

And the Minister controls the county registrar?

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Yes. We have in this country in most cases, I think, the same buildings that were occupied and used by the last judiciary that we had up to 1922. They are old British prison houses and nothing else. They are most uncomfortable. That has been the experience of everyone who has had to use them whether as a justice, a litigant or as a practitioner. They are completely unsuitable for the purpose for which they are required. They must have been designed by a man whose mind was bordering on lunacy. They are there now, however, and time and again their condition has been referred to by judges, justices, practitioners and litigants. I do hope that their repair and maintenance in the future will get the urgent attention of the Department. In some cases, by reason of the good fortune of the burning of courthouses during 1921 and 1922, one finds an occasional court building, provided after the establishment of this State, which is suitable for its purpose. But we still have the monstrosities which escaped the burnings at that time. Many of them have been the cause of early deaths amongst members of the legal profession, while those who have survived are continually getting colds from their attendance in them. I hope this matter will have the attention of the Minister's Department in the coming year. If some slight work were done on them it would help to bring about a welcome change. Anyway, the scope for the carrying out of repairs and maintenance and putting these buildings into a better condition, is very wide. I do not think there is anything more I have to say on the Estimate.

Mr. McQuillan

I want to refer first of all to some of the duties of the Garda Síochána. The question of animals being allowed to wander on the roads is one that the Minister should check up on. The number of cattle and sheep, especially cattle that are allowed to wander on the roads at the present time is becoming a public menace. It is evident that the owners desire that their animals should feed on the rich nutritious grass that grows along the roadside. No one, I suppose, can blame them for that, but these wandering animals are a danger to the public and to fast moving traffic. I would ask the Minister to direct the attention of the Garda Síochána to that. Deputy Dr. Maguire spoke about licences for motor drivers. I think it is a disgrace that some of the people one sees driving cars should be allowed to do so. A person can be stone-blind and yet secure a motor driver's licence.

Another point is the inspection of driving licences, road tax and insurance records which takes place in the different areas. I should like to know if there is any regulation in connection with the carrying out of this duty because the practice seems to vary in different areas. For instance, in one area when your licence and tax are inspected, you are issued with a type of pass that will enable you to get past the next halt without undue delay. If you have a journey of 80 or 90 miles and you are pulled up in the beginning you may have a clear passage. Right alongside that, in another chief super-intendent's area, the position is that you have to pull up at each place, where an inspection is carried on and you must produce all your documents. I remember travelling within an area of 35 miles and I was pulled up six times. In the next county I was pulled up only once. There should be some method adopted all over the country that will obviate travellers being pulled up in that way more than is necessary.

Deputy Maguire mentioned mobile patrols for the purpose of dealing with road hogs. Accidents due to the negligence of drivers are becoming very frequent and the Guards have to depend on Shanks' mare and on bicycles for their patrol work. I do not think it is necessary to have those patrols, unless they are based on large towns and they have a distance of 20 or 30 miles to patrol. At the present time there are State cars attached to various barracks in provincial towns for the use of the special branch. These State cars could be used for patrol work and, if necessary, they should be supplied with several sets of identification plates so that they will not be known to the general public. They can take a different road every day if they wish, pull up the speed merchants, and check up on the dimming of lights among other things. If that were done it would eliminate a lot of the accidents that take place.

I should like to make a suggestion with reference to the general organisation of the Garda Síochána. I believe that within the next few years large numbers of the Gardaí will be due to retire. I am not speaking now on behalf of our Party; it is a purely personal view. I imagine the time is ripe for a reorganisation of the force on different lines. At the present time we have barracks situated all over the country, separated some four or five miles from each other, and in these barracks there are three or four Gardaí and a sergeant. In some areas they have to look after only one public-house. There is no need for a sergeant and three or four Guards in places like that.

I suggest the Minister should consider having only one policeman in each village and give him a motor bicycle and a telephone. Let him live there like an ordinary citizen and put him in telephonic communication with headquarters in the nearest town, perhaps some 12 miles away. If there is any necessity for reinforcements or anything like that they could be summoned by telephone and mobile units could bring them from the nearest town. It is absolutely ridiculous to have four Guards and a sergeant in a small barracks with very little to do. Apart from that, one can put up the argument that the Guard who is living in a particular locality is one of the people. He mixes with them and if any crime occurs in the area there is no doubt he will be told very quickly about it and who the likely suspect is. He will often get the information quicker that way than where you have nine or ten Guards stationed.

I think our country is so crime free that we scarcely want four or five Guards in every small area. Actually, most of the barracks that we see throughout the country were established for the purpose of protecting fishing rights. Extra Guards were drafted into these localities largely in order to protect fishing rights for a few big shots who should have been cleared out of the place completely. I am making that suggestion about reorganisation of the Gardaí in view of the fact that so many of the Guards are about to retire.

There is one matter in which I am very interested and I would like to have some information from the Minister. I should like him to tell the House why it is that an ex-Minister travels round my constituency in a State car with two or three detectives acting as nurses to him every week-end. I think this is a matter affecting public policy in view of the fact that State money is being expended on this car. No doubt it will be put to me that this man needs protection. Protection from what?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think this particular matter arises.

Mr. McQuillan

I suggest it arises from the point of view of public expenditure. I do not see why this man is allowed to have a State car for attending club meetings all over his constituency and telling the people lies.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is the Garda authorities who are responsible for it; I do not think that the man in question is.

Mr. McQuillan

I have not mentioned any names.

An Ceann Comhairle

Possibly the man will be identified by everybody in the House — and the Deputy knows that.

Mr. McQuillan

Possibly, but at any rate the view that is taken by most people is that it is utterly and entirely unnecessary and if the question of protection arises it is more than ridiculous because this individual is looked upon as completely harmless now and nobody would for a moment dream of injuring him. That is my view quite honestly and I say advantage should not be taken by him of State cars for the purpose of improving his own political position. I hope the Minister will tell us what the position is and when this use of State cars will cease.

General MacEoin

On that point I should like to remind the Deputy that that ex-Minister, speaking here, said he wanted all that removed from him. He said that when he was speaking here a short time ago.

Mr. A. Byrne

There is one matter to which I should like to refer—it has been referred to already by other Deputies—and that is the issue of licences to new taxi owners and drivers. I suggest that there are at the moment sufficient taxis for hire in the City of Dublin without adding to the competition faced by those men who are finding it hard to live. I think that if the issue of licences was limited for a year or two it would be helpful to those already in the business, who have very keen competition to face. It would also do something to prevent people who do not depend entirely for their livelihood on taxis from engaging in the taxi business, having it as a side-line and depriving taxi owners in the cities and towns of their means of livelihood.

I read in the paper some time ago where a person was in a shop and he asked where he could get a taxi. The owner of that shop provided the taxi. It was one of those private hackney cars, I understand, but it was unfair to the local taxi men that that person, who engaged in other business, should enter into the taxi business and deprive those who were depending entirely on it of a means of livelihood.

Reference has been made to the housing conditions of the Garda Síochána. I remember Ministers and Deputies from all Parties for many years suggesting that employers and industrialists should be appealed to to house their employees. To give them credit, a number of industrialists have done so, especially in Dublin, yet the Minister's Department has made no effort to house members of the Garda in the City of Dublin. If a young man in the country, entitled to promotion, gets that promotion, and Dublin is his aim, he cannot come here because if he seeks a room or two he will have to pay almost half his wages to get that accommodation here. I say it is up to the Department of Justice to see that houses are provided for the Garda and not have them competing with the 28,000 people who are on the Dublin Corporation housing list. I put it to the Minister that it would be money well spent on those men in whom he has such a keen interest. We all know that the present Minister has a very keen interest in the Garda and that he would go out of his way to do the best he could for them.

I think the Minister will have to increase the number of traffic Gardaí in the city. More men will have to be put on point duty. The condition of traffic in Dublin at the moment is appalling. Many important crossings and roadways have not yet been equipped with traffic lights. In the interval points-duty men will have to be put on them. No matter how expert motorists are they are finding it increasingly difficult to travel through the city. Now the Minister's Department is represented on the bridges committee. Those representatives should urge on this committee that the reconstruction of the bridges, particularly the metal bridge, should be commenced without delay. The metal bridge would ease the traffic considerably from both George's Street and Dame Street. The harbour authorities are responsible for the suggested new transporter bridge at the South and North Walls.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for Justice is not responsible for that.

Mr. Byrne

I am pointing out that he will have to increase the number of men on point duty in order to regulate the traffic. I am also pointing out that if work is carried out in connection with these suggested bridges it may not be necessary to increase the number of Garda on point duty because these bridges would help to alleviate the present chaotic traffic condition. I think the time is opportune to encourage pedestrians into a more disciplined use of footpaths. I remember 50 or 60 years ago when every lamp-post bore a blue enamel sign asking pedestrians "Keep to the left." I do not know why these were removed. I think something must be done to eradicate our present rather happy-go-lucky use of the footpaths. The position could be eased if these pedestrian signs were put up here and there.

I want to emphasise again that it would be unwise to increase the number of taxis plying for hire. I would not like to see any limitation put upon those that are already licensed. But from time to time some will drop out and I suggest that these places should not be filled. The number left would be quite competent to cater for all the traffic there is.

I impress upon the Minister the desirability of ensuring that the Guards are properly housed and that they will not be faced with the difficulty of having to pay exorbitant rents for private houses.

Mr. Dockrell

I would like to make a few observations on the traffic position generally and on the standard of driving. At the moment we seem to be suffering under a very low standard of driving and that places a rather onerous responsibility on the Garda who, to do them justice, are doing their utmost to carry on successfully under somewhat difficult conditions. I think we require many more mobile police cars. We want cars that can follow motorists who make mistakes in driving; such a mobile unit could pull these drivers up and, as it were, show them the error of their ways. There is a widespread lack of knowledge concerning the correct driving signals.

Anybody who drives in the City or County of Dublin knows that as often as not no signal is given by the car ahead. Sometimes a signal is given when a car is turning to the right but a very large number of motorists do not seem to realise that it is just as important to signal when they are turning to the left. Not only have we motorists who drive too fast, but we also suffer from motorists who drive too slowly. They are a grave danger. In many cases, especially around the city and suburbs, a slow motorist can hold up a long stream of traffic and may quite easily be the cause of an accident somewhere else in the line. That is a type of motorist who could be dealt with adequately by these mobile police cars. I think if we had more of them they would have a beneficial effect on traffic generally.

There is another matter to which I would like to refer, though I am not quite sure whether it comes within the purview of the Minister for Justice. I refer to traffic coming out on to main roads. There seems to be very little margin and very little distinction between secondary roads and main roads. We do not appear to have notices calling upon motorists to halt —"halt—major road ahead." We have had experience of cars dashing out on to main roads. I think adequate road signs would prevent that.

Another matter which gives rise to some complaint here in the city is the question of pedestrian crossings. Anybody going round the city will find that in nine cases out of ten motor cars go half-way across pedestrian crossings —that is between the studs—before stopping and one sees unfortunate pedestrians weaving their way in and out through the cars. That is another matter in regard to which more strict control could be exercised if there were more Gardaí to attend to it. I think we would require to have a Garda actually standing at each pedestrian crossing so as to keep cyclists, motorists and other traffic back from the defined limits of the crossing.

I should also like to mention a matter which has been brought up in this House on a number of occasions and over a number of years. That is the question of legal adoption.

An Ceann Comhairle

That would require legislation?

Mr. Dockrell

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Then it is not a matter to be discussed on the Estimate.

Mr. Dockrell

If the Chair rules me out I may not discuss it, but it is a matter in regard to which many people would like to see some action taken. I should like to urge upon the Minister again the necessity for having more mobile police cars and more trained Gardaí to regulate traffic and to improve driving standards generally. I think most people will agree that during the emergency when so many cars were laid up and so many people were not driving, the standard seemed to have deteriorated. One of the best ways to deal with that matter is to place more Gardaí on the roads and so raise the standard of driving.

Mr. Sheldon

By a strange coincidence the matter to which I want to refer is that which has been just dealt with by Deputy Dockrell, namely, road safety. Both Deputy Dr. Magulre, Deputy Dockrell and probably other Deputies referred to the necessity for a mobile police force particularly in the country. There is at least one patrol car—there may be more—in the city and I shall make a few remarks about it in a moment. Just now I should like to stress the absolute necessity for these police cars in rural areas and I would suggest to the Minister that it would not require any great expenditure to supply them. You would not need one in every parish. The fact that it was known that such police patrols were employed and that one never knew where they were likely to turn up would of itself be a sufficient deterent to careless drivers. I speak with a certain amount of experience because on my way to Dublin every week I pass through a neighbouring State, and I can assure the Minister that the fact that at any corner you may suddenly find yourself confronted with a police car has a very salutary effect on the rate and the mode of driving. I know I shall not forget in a hurry my first experience; it had a marked effect on the whole conduct of my driving afterwards.

I think that if half a dozen cars were scattered over a wide area, without keeping to particular places, on some plan devised by the Commissioner, there would be quite sufficient to deal with breaches of the traffic laws. Anyone who drives a motor car on main or county roads in rural areas must be aware of the great dangers that at present exist. The standard of driving is something shocking. I would say that that is partly due to carelessness and partly to lack of courtesy. That is especially so in the case of heavy traffic. Reference has been made in other years to the way in which heavy lorries can amble along the roads, completely ignoring following traffic. The defence sometimes is that it is difficult for a heavy vehicle to pull in, but the fact that they can do so when faced with oncoming traffic indicates that that is not the full explanation of their unwillingness to facilitate following traffic. Nothing will really remedy these abuses except a mobile police force. To expect a few Gardaí down the country travelling around on bicycles to deal with lorry traffic or motor traffic of any kind is obviously ridiculous.

On the question of signals, I remember that up to a few years ago a very convenient circular was issued by the Commissioner to motorists at the time they paid their tax or got their driving licence. It is not that the signals in use in this country are in any way elaborate. I should think we have the simplest system in use anywhere. It could not be reduced to much simpler terms. There are in fact only three signals that can be given — turn right, turn left, slow down and stop and overtake. The signal for slowing down or stopping is similar to that for turning left. On that point the confusion which is created with following traffic has to be seen to be believed, especially by lorry drivers. They put out their hand, and to draw attention to it, wave it up and down. when they really want to turn right. It can be most confusing both to oncoming traffic and traffic approaching from the rere. I would suggest to the Minister that it might be worth while issuing that little circular again giving the correct signals. Of course, most modern lorries and cars are provided with mechanical signals but I am afraid some of them are not very efficient. Some of them are so placed on the vehicles that the driver cannot see them. The result is that if there is any breakdown in the system, the driver keeps on pressing buttons, fondly imagining that he is giving signals when, in fact, no signal is being given. I speak from bitter experience in this matter, because of an encounter with a lady motorist whose indicator did not function when she turned right across my bows and she was so placed that she could not possibly see that it was not working. I think the Minister ought to take note of that and see that cars are provided with signals placed in such a way that they can be seen, as that can lead to very serious consequences. Of course a thing which many motorists seem to forget is that to signal is not sufficient. They should look in their mirrors and see if there is someone behind them in such a position that the signal is useless from the point of view of time.

I said earlier that I would make another reference to the mobile police in the city. This may have been an isolated instance, but on one occasion I saw a mobile police car breaking one rule of the road. It was ambling along at 18 miles an hour and failed to keep sufficiently to the left. There were about 20 cars behind it blaring their horns but when they saw what it was they did not try to pass and I do not blame them. The fact was, however, that the police car was breaking one of the principal rules of the road in failing to keep to the left. It was probably just one case, but it does not inspire any great confidence in the police if they are going to break the rules. This question of not keeping to the left on the part of slow traffic is infuriating in the city. I have to go to Drumcondra once a week and I saw a lorry ambling in the middle of that wide street, Dorset Street, again at about 15 or 20 miles an hour. Perhaps traffic ought not go any faster, but if all traffic in the city goes at 15 or 20 miles an hour, the traffic jams will be worse than ever and someone ought to instruct these lorry drivers to keep over to the left and allow traffic to pass them.

The question of road signs is a bit complicated because the question of just who is the authority to deal with them is complicated. The Minister for Local Government in 1946 put the onus on the commissioner to instruct local authorities where the signs should go up — Section 69, sub-section (3), —but it is the Minister for Local Government who decides on the size and shape of the sign and just who would be responsible for them at the moment I am not quite sure. I think really that since the commissioner has the power to instruct local authorities where the signs should go, it is a matter for the present Minister.

One of the most important signs on any road is, of course, the sign to tell the traveller where he is going to go, the signpost, and we are still using a type of signpost invented to suit horse traffic. They are high up and are very suitably placed for a man riding a horse or in a horse-drawn vehicle, but they are most inconvenient for motorists as they are too small and cannot be seen from a car, especially at night. Worst of all, they are placed exactly at the crossroad and a motorist approaching cannot see them, particularly at night. He has quite enough to watch besides watching the signpost. While I do not say that it should be done for every crossroads in the country, statistics of accidents should give the commissioner some idea of where to make a start and every important crossroad or crossroad that has been the scene of an accident should be signposted before the crossroad is reached. It would point the direction of the roads and also serve as a warning that there was a crossroads in front. I would like to see it started and then developed and spread to every crossroads in the country.

With regard to danger signs, again we seem to have no definite scheme as to what are dangerous roads. We have main roads but a few roads are listed as arterial roads and in the view of the local authorities they take precedence over ordinary main roads. To motorists driving over them, however, there is nothing to distinguish them and I know of one case where a so-called arterial road does not carry anything like the traffic carried by the main road that crosses it. There have been quite a number of accidents at this particular crossroads because the man driving on the main road thinks he has precedence over the fellow on the arterial road.

Another type of road sign is the sign indicating dangerous corners and I think that the Commissioner should order the local authorities to do something about them. I remember very well my first trip to Dublin by road. We came to a sign indicating an S bend and I sensibly slowed down only to discover that the S bend had been taken away ten years before. That happened ten miles further on and ten miles further on again. I know I was wrong, but having had this experience three times, when I came to the fourth, I said: "Oh I will not worry", and unfortunately this S bend had not been taken away. There are S bends that need signs but it is very confusing to motorists to keep signs up where the bend has been taken away. There are S bends where there are no signs and they could well be overlooked. When I asked a question a few years ago, the answer the Minister for Local Government gave at the time was that certain materials could not be got, but that as soon as the emergency was over and materials could be got, the matter would be fixed up. I think it is time the matter was taken in hands and although it is the Minister for Local Government who carries out the work, it is the commissioner who instructs where to put the signs. My own local authority did not know that it was the commissioner at all, so it would be well if the commissioner and the local authorities were stirred up.

Mr. O'Leary

I put questions during Deputy Boland's time as Minister during the emergency regarding the conveying of prisoners by the buses. I think that is altogether wrong. I have had experience of travelling on buses while young boys were being brought away to industrial schools and prisoners, women prisoners. On one occasion the bus was stopped to let these people get out and go to a public-house and the bus was held up for a certain time. I think that procedure is wrong. I see young boys getting into trouble and after they have been brought before the peace commissioner they are brought down to the bus and sent to the "Joy", that is 70 or 80 miles. They are remanded there until the District Court. They are brought back by bus again and when they are convicted, they have the experience of mothers and relatives crowding round the bus crying. That is not right. The Minister for Justice at the time said it was only during the emergency. I believe that a State car or taxi should be employed for the conveyance of prisoners. The county council to which I belong puts in a sum of £200 for the conveyance of prisoners and we find that the prisoners are brought by the cheapest and meanest way, by the Córas Iompair Eireann bus, while State cars are prowling round the City of Dublin with loud speakers. I think one should be provided for the conveyance of prisoners to the "Joy" or whatever "joys" they are going to. The present procedure is all wrong. The Minister's statement is an inducement to young fellows to go into gaol. He said there are going to be pictures and radio, smokes, good clothes and all the rest. That is an inducement to them to go in, as they will have a good time while they are in there.

I appeal to the Minister to bring in some new system of conveying the prisoners. On a recent occasion, when I was on a bus, a stranger, an American who was a passenger, was talking to me and said that it was a disgrace to have them brought in that way. He asked who was in authority and whether there was not someone who would bring it to the notice of the authorities. I am appealing to the Minister, now that the war is over and that there is plenty of petrol, to make provision during this debate to-night so that we will not see these prisoners, even in murder cases, brought into towns and the whole town out to get a peep at them. That should not be allowed at all throughout the country.

There has been talk here about the hackney cars, but I do not think it is the hackney licences that are the real cause of the grievance of the taxi-men. From what I know, it is the private owners who are interfering in that way and bringing people to race meetings, sports meetings and football matches, under the guise of "love and honour". There was a question about that here some time ago and the Minister said he had no recourse through the Gardaí. We know that it is hard to get at these people, as they can say that there is no charge made. That is the case the hackney-men have made to me—that it is the private cars that are doing that class of work.

Deputy Maguire, the Fianna Fáil Deputy from Monaghan, complained of tinkers going to fairs. I do not think that tinkers are a great menace at all. I see them in my own town on a fair day, spending money, buying horses from small farmers and selling other ones. They have their own way of living. Each Minister has said in his time that there was only about 5,000 of these people. They are not as bad as people say they are and they have to live in their own way.

Mr. Davin

The absent voter.

Mr. O'Leary

That is why some people do not want them. They have no vote and they are not on the register and people do not want them. If they had votes, there would be nothing said about them.

During school hours, when youngsters are going to lunch, a Guard should be on duty where they have to cross the road. That is most important. There should also be some protection at 3 or 4 o'clock in the evening, to keep them from running out on public roads, especially in the towns where motor cars and lorries are flying along. In Cabinteely, I see a notice, "Please drive slowly through Village", and I think there should be in every town some sign like that to tell the motorist to drive slowly. There may be children living in houses in the main streets. The stranger flying along does not know whether there is a school there or not; the "School" signs should be more plentiful in country towns and villages.

I dealt with the question of houses for the Gardaí before and I was told that other people came first. I understand that, as time goes on, there will be houses for them. I think that new Gardaí stations should be built, as I know where big rents are being paid for old houses belonging to landlords and they are not fit for use as Garda barracks. Some very fine new Garda stations have been built throughout the country already and they look very well. The Minister should see that in every town and village there is a proper station where young men are going to spend their lives.

Deputy Davin referred to the communists. I hope the Minister for Justice at present and any other Minister in the future will never again allow the Mansion House in Dublin, or any other house, to be used by the Friends of Russia or the Red Dean. It all led up to cases of disturbance which had to be heard in the courts. The Minister should carefully examine that point and see that that trouble does not occur again.

I wish to point out that the Gardaí are not satisfied with the bonus position. They believe they should have got it as other civil servants got it, on the 29th May, instead of cutting down a few months retrospective pay. The Minister and the Minister for Finance should have granted it to them, the same as every other section of civil servants. A Garda in a town must be up to a certain standard too. I know there are certain rent allowances granted to them and I know that the people in the city here are under very big rents, more so than men in the rural areas. There may be some privileges in rural areas for Gardaí, but they are few. Anyone setting a house says: "This fellow is well able to pay and I will get all I can." That is the general feeling where rent is concerned. The owner is looking for the best tenant who can give him the highest price.

Other Deputies in the Opposition say that a lot of Guards are leaving. There are plenty of young fellows who want to join. Any man who wants to go to America or Australia feels, I am sure, that he is going to better himself. Many young men are asking when there will be recruitment for the Guards, and from all over my constituency I get letters about that. We cannot stop a young man leaving the Guards and going to Australia, America, Canada or anywhere else. That is his own look out.

Deputy Davin referred to the question of "the woman doing the sergeant". I cannot say anything about that, but I know of cases of Guards doing their duty and being transferred because they found out certain people in certain hotels and so on. There were no law courts, but the Garda was transferred to the furthest place you could transfer him. That is a very unfair thing to do to any Guard. The law should be for the rich as well as for the poor, and should be administered so.

Mr. Rooney

I would like the Minister for Justice to approach the local authorities with a view to placing the Civic Guards and their families on the same level as the families of civilians when it comes to applying for the tenancy of council houses. Housing conditions amongst the Gardaí are just as bad as they are amongst civilians in many cases and I feel it is unfair that any regulation or condition should exist whereby the Guards will not get the same treatment as civilian families when the question of tenancy is receiving consideration. I know that in County Dublin there are several areas where housing accommodation for Guards is not adequate and they are compelled to live in small, overcrowded houses. I am not saying they have to live in houses where there are several families, but they are living in small houses and there may be a large family.

I would ask the Minister to consider the possibility of providing a light auto-cycle for each Garda barracks in the rural areas. This is 1949 and the Guards are using bicycles in these country districts when other persons such as inspectors, who have to travel in the course of their duties, have other means of transport. I think that at this stage the question of providing light auto-cycles for Guards should be considered. One machine at each barrack would facilitate them greatly because it is probable that only one Guard at a time is out on his bicycle.

The question of lighting has been touched on. Lack of lighting is one of the things which contributes in great measure to accidents — either defective lights on motor vehicles or no lights or bad lights on bicycles. With approaching traffic, it is very difficult for a motorist to see a cyclist in front of him and the reflectors provided on these bicycles are very rarely effective. It is difficult for the motorist to see it, although it complies with the law, and it would be desirable to consider the possibility of providing a light, some kind of a red light, on the back of a bicycle. The actual disc reflector is not effective and is often the cause of accidents, when motorists are overtaking a cyclist or a group of cyclists while an oncoming car is approaching. At this stage, there is no excuse for unlighted cycles. They are a danger to the cyclist and a danger to pedestrians using the roads. For that reason, the whole question of lights on vehicles, bicycles and cars, should be seriously considered.

The dimming apparatus on many types of cars is not really effective and the proof of that is that, when travelling in a car the lights of which you have dimmed, you will see an oncoming driver flashing his bright lights to show that he thinks you have still your strong lights on. I suggest that the Minister should discuss with the authorities the possibility of adopting some kind of standardised dimming device. In regard to signals, I am a believer in the hand signal rather than the light signal, because it is more effective and in this connection it is right that the motoring public should be educated in the signals to be given for beckoning cars on and indicating a stop or a turn left. If a car is fitted with mechanical signals, a turn left can be indicated but a motorist may still have to show whether he intends to stop or wants a car to overtake him.

There are areas in rural Ireland where one-man police stations would be effective. There are cases of Garda barracks located in a particular district where there are only a small number of people, on the other side of which there are 500 or 1,000 people. The people have to travel a long distance when they have occasion to go to the barracks to apply for a shotgun licence, passports and so on, and it would be a facility which would be greatly appreciated by people in these populous districts if a one-man station could be provided. There is always the possibility of a serious occurrence in the area and lack of telephone facilities renders the barracks at the other end of the district almost ineffective. I give as an example the Lusk police area. Donabate and Portrane areas are seven miles from Lusk barracks and there are more people in these areas than there are in the village or parish of Lusk. The Guards there have to travel daily to Donabate to carry out their routine duties and the people have to arrange to meet them at certain times. If they fail to meet them, they have to try to contact the Guards in Lusk seven miles away.

Another factor which contributes to accidents is the pedestrian traffic, especially in the cities and towns, where it appears to be very haphazard. It is only reasonable that, if the cyclist or motorist must observe certain rules of the road, the pedestrians also should observe a certain set of rules. They should realise that the cyclist or motorist has a perfect right to use the road within the limits of the law, but there is an inclination on the part of pedestrians to say: "I have the road and everybody else must get out of my way." That is most unfair, and for that reason I should like the Minister to take steps to ensure that pedestrian traffic in cities and towns will be regulated. Anybody climbing to the top of Nelson Pillar to-morrow and looking down on O'Connell Street will see the people crossing the street without any kind of order whatever. They cross at pedestrian crossings and at any other point where they take the notion to leave the footpath and start across the street. It is even worse where they cross the street near a corner in haphazard fashion. It would be for the benefit of traffic regulation in the city at present if pedestrian traffic were more severely regulated and if jaywalkers were warned. I do not suggest that they should be punished but, if they were warned and directed by the Guards, they would cultivate good habits in the proper use of the streets. The result would be advantageous to all road users. It might be possible for the Minister to advocate school courses to make the children traffic conscious. In many cases children run out on the road and are struck by cars and the driver is exonerated because it is held that the accident was not his fault but was the child's fault. If the children were made more traffic conscious, tragic accidents of that kind would not occur.

I notice that the retrospective pay for the Garda is retrospective only to some time before Christmas and not to the 29th May of last year. However, it is certain that the Garda would not have got an increase in pay or would not have got retrospective pay but for the progressive action of this Government in trying to bring the level of their pay up to the present cost-of-living figure. Less Guards with more money might be a means of improving the conditions for the Guards, who are engaged on a very important task in the regulation of civilian life. Some Opposition Deputies complained that Guards were leaving the force to take up other employment. I would not say to any Guard that he should stay in the force and accept the pay he gets there if he can get better wages in other employment and improve his position. We have no right to tell the Guards that they should not try to improve their conditions if they can. The fact that there are so many young men anxious to enter the Garda Síochána proves that that occupation has its attractions and the improved conditions which the Minister has provided in the past 12 or 15 months will encourage men to join that important service.

Captain Cowan

I regret very much the note that was introduced into this debate by the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Boland. For a considerable part of his speech he spoke in a very reasonable way but for some reason or other he was anxious to introduce a note that might very well have been left out of this debate particularly in view of the fact that we can record a year of internal peace. The very fact that we can record a year of internal peace might have suggested to a Deputy who has had the experience that Deputy Boland has had of bearing responsibility of office over a long period, that any word or action that might ruffle or upset that peace would be dangerous. Mention was made last year, and there was some reference to it this evening, of unhappy and unfortunate events of the past. For some reason or other Deputy Boland endeavours to avail of every opportunity to bring forward the events of that unfortunate period. I do not think it does himself personally any good. I think it excites certain antagonism. It may excite irresponsible people and to that extent it is exceptionally dangerous. I think it does no good to his own political Party and certainly the country as a whole does not benefit from speeches such as the latter part of his contribution to this debate.

Each and every one of us, after our turbulent history in recent years, should be pleased to pay tribute this evening to the success of the Minister in maintaining law and order and peace, not by means of military courts or anything of that nature but by encouraging a spirit of goodwill amongst all citizens.

The Department of Justice is an exceptionally important Department. It deals with many major matters that affect each and every citizen. It covers the administration of the law, the control and administration of prisons and borstals, the control and administration of the Garda, the rehabilitation of prisoners, and a number of other matters. It ought to be possible in a discussion on the Estimate to make concrete suggestions to the Minister that will lead to a general improvement. I propose to deal with a few aspects of the administration of the Department of Justice. I will deal first with the Garda. I have heard the Garda criticised this evening. I have heard the Garda praised this evening, but I think every one of us who has practical experience of the difficulties that confront the Garda, of the many onerous responsibilities that they carry, must realise the great debt that we owe as a community to the Garda force. It has been my experience over the years that the Garda force as a whole can be considered honest, of the highest integrity, and that they carry out their difficult and onerous responsibilities with due regard for the public interest. While we have a force such as that, I feel that it is our duty as a Parliament to see that that Garda force is removed from any danger or any possibility of corruption through inadequate pay or allowances or through the enforcement of regulations that militate against the Garda force as a whole. I think each and every one of us, particularly those of us who live in the city of Dublin, realises that all ranks of the Garda right up to the rank of inspector are inadequately paid. Although the Minister has made a recent increase in the pay of the Garda, that increase has not been sufficient. In my view it is entirely inadequate in the case of Gardaí who are stationed in Dublin City and in the case of married Gardaí.

I have already made a suggestion to the Minister that he should consider a system of allowances whereby a marriage allowance and a children's allowance would be paid to Gardaí and whereby a city allowance would be paid to those Gardaí who have to carry out their duties in our cities. I think that is a reasonable suggestion. No member of the force living in the City of Dublin with a wife and family to maintain and paying the rent that must be paid in Dublin can do it within the pay and allowances that are paid to him by the State. The Minister will answer, as he has answered, that there is a lodging allowance paid to married members of the Garda. That allowance in the City of Dublin would not pay for the meanest room in the meanest street in the meanest part of the city. It has no relation to present-day cost. Each and every one of us has the responsibility for maintaining the good name and the honour of the Garda force. It is, therefore, our duty as a Parliament to ensure that those Gardaí are paid fair wages and that they are paid adequate allowances in the case of married Gardaí and a city allowance in the case of those residing in our cities.

On last year's Estimate I referred to the regulations that governed the Garda. I understand that those regulations are being examined for some little time now. But the regulations that do operate at the moment are entirely out of date and, in their own way, contribute to the discontent of the force. Some Deputies have referred to the transfer of Gardaí. Transfers take place periodically. There have been quite a number of cases of Gardaí transferred out of the City of Dublin. The strange thing about it is that there is one section of the Garda stationed in the City of Dublin who cannot be transferred out of it at all. Those are the Gardaí who were taken over from the old Dublin Metropolitan Police Force. They have a certain statutory protection. But the young man who joined the Garda force when it was formed by this State, and was transferred into the Dublin Metropolitan Police section, can be transferred with impunity and, in fact, is transferred from time to time. I think that there is something unfair in the fact that the Gardaí who were taken over cannot be transferred while the persons who came in or were recruited to the force and as young people were transferred into the Dublin Metropolitan Police section can be transferred — and the transfer in their case may be a very serious matter. They may be buying a house under the facilities provided by the corporation under the Small Dwellings. (Acquisition) Act. They may have their children at schools here in the city. They are taken, often for a very trivial offence, and sent down to some part of the country. It would not be too bad if the transfer stopped there but, generally what happens is that they are sent into a division down the country.

The majority of the Gardaí in that division have been there for 20 or more years. They are the strangers. They are not as willing as the Gardaí who had been there for 20 years or longer and if a vacancy arises in a worse station miles away these unfortunate Gardaí are the men to be sent there. I think that if the Minister looks up the records of Gardaí who have been transferred from Dublin to the country he will find that those Gardaí have been transferred a number of times subsequently. It would be well worth inquiring why those transfers have been carried out. If a Garda commits some disciplinary offence and if he is punished in accordance with the provisions of the Garda code I see no reason in the world why the additional penalty of transfer should be imposed on him—a penalty that affects not only himself but his wife and children too. I would ask the Minister to see that that section of his Department and of Garda Headquarters that are dealing with the revision of those regulations will hurry up with the job so that those new regulations will eliminate all the causes of complaint that have been mentioned not this year or last year but that have been mentioned for many years in the Department of Justice Estimate.

The Minister gave statistics in regard to crime which show that in the case of indictable offences there had been a decrease of approximately 1,000 during the past year. I gathered from the Minister however that in regard to summary offences there had been an increase of approximately 17,000 during the year. Clearly, as we make new laws creating new summary offences, the number of summary offences will tend to rise. I suppose we cannot complain too much in regard to that. But it is a good thing to see that the number of indictable crimes is decreasing and we can only hope that that decrease will be maintained, because an increase in crime puts a very serious burden on the community—the burden of maintaining Gardaí, prisons, prison officers and a lot of the machinery of the Department.

Complaint was recently made by a district justice as to the action of the Garda in regard to public-houses. I think the Minister will agree that there is scope for some improvement there. The laws are undoubtedly there in regard to public-houses, but one Garda officer may act differently from another in regard to the enforcement of these laws. Where we find members of the Garda stationing themselves outside a particular public-house and keeping it under observation for long periods, that is something which I consider objectionable because it can be abused. I came across an instance not so long ago of a particular premises which was under observation by the Garda. Complaints had undoubtedly been made in regard to it. But at all hours of the night special patrols of Gardaí in cars or otherwise were being sent to watch that public-house. That may be all right, but I think there ought to be some uniform instruction issued in regard to the attention to be paid to licensed premised by members of the Garda.

Not so long ago there was a case where a Garda used to visit a public-house which was legally open to serve drink to people who had travelled the required distance. That Garda went in there night after night, questioned people on the premises as to their names, compelled them to produce documents to identify themselves, although he had been standing outside the door, had seen the people going in and knew of his own personal knowledge that not one of these people was committing an offence. I am perfectly certain the Minister would not stand over that and that the great majority of the officers of the Garda would not stand over it. Abuses of that kind can happen and, from what I know of the Minister, I am perfectly certain that he would not wish them to happen and that he will take such steps as may be appropriate to deal with them.

Part of the duty of our courts is to impose punishment for offences, punishment which may be of various kinds. There may be sentences of imprisonment, sentences of penal servitude, or Borstal or other forms of detention. Recently, I asked the Minister as to the number of visits paid to penal servitude and other prisons and places of detention by judges and district justices and I was astonished to find the very small number who bothered within the last ten years to have a look into those places so that they would become familiar with the kind of punishment to which they were sentencing persons brought before them. The Minister should encourage such visits to these prisons and places of detention so that those persons who have the power to enforce punishment may be aware of what they are sentencing an offender to.

That brings me to this point. The Probation of Offenders Act was passed for the purpose of enabling the courts in the case of first offenders to apply the provisions of that Act rather than to impose a sentence of imprisonment. As a general rule, in the case of a first offender whose character has been good up to that stage, the provisions of the Act should be applied. It is the experience of practitioners, however, that that is not so and that many cases come before the courts where a person of otherwise good character has broken the law once and where the court will not impose any other sentence except the sentence of imprisonment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has no control over the judiciary. He cannot control the sentences.

Captain Cowan

I know the Minister's difficulty in regard to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is unconstitutional. The judiciary must be independent.

Captain Cowan

I know the Minister's difficulty in regard to it. It is a matter of substantial public importance.

An Ceann Comhairle

Quite, but we are precluded from criticising the decisions of the judge.

Captain Cowan

I have no intention here of criticising the decisions of the judge.

Major de Valera

May I ask would the Deputy not be in order in dealing with the punishment involved because actually the punishment is a matter for the Minister?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was commenting on not using the Probation Act. That is a matter for the judge, in the opinion of the Chair.

Captain Cowan

I am grateful to Deputy de Valera for his suggestion.

Major de Valera

The Minister has the power of remission.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy says the Minister has the power of remission but the Chair says the Minister has no power to criticise the judge's sentence.

General MacEoin

Or tell him how to do it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The independence of the judiciary is a matter of importance also.

Captain Cowan

The position, anyway, is there. I am not criticising the judiciary or anybody else. I am stating facts now. That is exactly what does happen. We have the position here in the City of Dublin where year after year prisoners are coming before the courts charged with housebreaking. Year after year they are being sentenced to a certain term of imprisonment. They come out and they are not very long out before the Guards are apprehending them again. They are sentenced again to a very short term of imprisonment. While I agree with whatever machinery is available to the Minister in regard to mitigation of punishment, and particularly the punishment of imprisonment imposed on a first offender, in the case of those habitual criminals who are coming up year after year before the courts charged with the same offences such machinery as is available to the Minister should be used for the purpose of keeping them in prison rather than having them at large to commit further crimes. I think that is the best I can do within the limitation imposed on me.

An Ceann Comhairle

It was not the Chair imposed the limitation, Deputy. It was the Constitution.

Major de Valera

Might I ask at this stage on what occasion could a Deputy raise that matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not for me to say. I am to say when the Deputy is out of order.

Major de Valera

I think it is a matter of some importance.

Captain Cowan

I did not hear the suggestion.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is doing his best to allow the Deputies to criticise certain matters.

Captain Cowan

That is as it is. Difficulties are there. We have tied ourselves up, I suppose, over a period of 25 years in the House with rules which do not enable the thing to be mentioned now. This whole matter of crime is a serious one when we have several thousand indictable crimes in a year, more than a thousand every month and more than 250 indictable crimes every week. That has been mentioned by the Minister. That is the position and apparently I can do nothing more than say that is a serious position.

The Minister has mentioned some ticket-of-leave improvements. I am glad of that. I think it is very wise if a person is going to be released to release him and be done with it. But putting him on a string and compelling him to report periodically is not going to help him very much.

Juvenile crime has been mentioned and I can see difficulties in entering into a discussion on that also. It is regrettable that there is so much juvenile crime in the city of Dublin. However, I see quite a number of cases brought to court by the Guards that are recorded as juvenile crime when they should not be brought to court at all. The whole machinery of the Gárda is used in regard to a little lad of seven or eight or nine years of age as if he was a hardened criminal with many convictions behind him.

May I make this further comment? In every Garda station in Dublin at the moment there is a very important book containing photographs distributed by the Garda headquarters. In that book are some scores of photographs of individuals living in the City of Dublin who are pointed out there to the Guards as individuals who have been convicted many times of violating young children, not once but on many occasions over a period of years. It revolts one to think that in every Garda station under the jurisdiction of the Minister in the City of Dublin there is this book containing those scores of photographs of individuals who are at large. I think that is a shocking state of affairs. It is a state of affairs that must cause concern to the Minister as it must cause concern to every member of this House. Unfortunately I cannot suggest a remedy because it would be out of order but I am mentioning the fact so that the members of this House who are not aware of it may be aware of that very serious position which confronts us here in Dublin.

Last year I drew attention to the conditions under which the warders in the prisons operate. I was glad to learn this evening that the Minister has indicated that steps have been taken to improve the quarters for those officials, and that steps have been, and are being taken to improve the cottages in which the married warders reside. I am also glad to know that a representative body of those prison officials has been formed and is being recognised by the Minister, and that he has gone a long way to meet the reasonable claims that these warders are making. It is good to know that when suggestions are made to the Minister in the debate on an Estimate in one year that they are looked into, and that the Minister is able to come back the following year and say that he has taken certain steps to see that the particular matters referred to will be rectified as soon as possible. That is something that we all like to hear.

During the past year I put suggestions to the Minister in regard to providing free legal aid for persons who are unable to pay for legal assistance. The Chair may say that this would involve legislation. I am not putting it that way to the Minister that it does involve legislation, but I do say that the Minister can have the whole matter examined and can tell us what is involved. The Minister, I think, will agree that there are cases in which grave injustice is done to individuals because they are not in a position to be legally represented at their trial. I have seen that happen myself in court when there as a spectator. I was so upset by it on one occasion that I intervened in the proceedings. I just could not restrain myself, and as I say I intervened. Those of us who practise in the courts see these cases of injustice occur. I would ask the Minister to examine the whole problem and what it involves.

An Ceann Comhairle

Legislation.

Captain Cowan

No, I am not suggesting that at all.

General MacEoin

Voluntary service.

Captain Cowan

I am asking the Minister to examine the problem and see what it involves and then make such recommendation to the House as he thinks will solve it. The same thing arises in regard to legal adoption, the discussion of which was ruled out earlier this evening.

An Ceann Comhairle

And is still out.

Captain Cowan

I understand that the Minister has been investigating this problem. I would ask him to continue his investigations as quickly as possible, so that, when some Deputy puts a question down to him within the next two or three months he will be able to say that he has completed this consideration of the problem, that he will be able to tell the House truthfully and honestly that he has done that, and is now in a position to put his recommendations into effect. There is another matter which relates to the whole codification and revision of our laws.

An Ceann Comhairle

The administration of the laws is what we are concerned with here.

Captain Cowan

I was going to agree with the Ceann Comhairle that that clearly would be out of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

Why refer to it then?

Captain Cowan

I am not going to refer to it in such a way as to be out of order. The Minister realises that there will be a tremendously big task in the examination of that whole problem by such a committee of experts as he may choose to set up. I would ask the Minister strictly within the rules of this House——

An Ceann Comhairle

Not in my estimation.

Captain Cowan

——to set up a committee of experts to examine this problem and let us have its report as early as possible. With these few remarks I am more than happy to be able to pay a tribute to the work of the Minister during the past year. He has quite a number of achievements to his credit, and I hope that his future years as Minister will see substantial improvements made in regard to all those other matters which, at the moment, it would be outside the rules of order to discuss in this debate.

Mr. A.P. Byrne

I want to join with Deputy McQuillan and with other Deputies in asking that the Minister should have a complete reconsideration of the whole set up of the Garda force as well as a new allocation of Garda stations. In my opinion there should be a shorter distance between these stations, particularly in the rural areas, as well as better provision in regard to bicycles and mobile units throughout the country. A few weeks ago Deputy Flynn, in the course of a question which he addressed to the Tánaiste, elicited the fact that the nearest Garda station to applicants of a certain class was ten or 12 miles. I want to draw the attention of the Minister to that—that you have people living in parts of the country and that the nearest Garda station to them is ten or 12 miles away. Even if the average distance is less in some cases, I still would join with Deputy McQuillan in asking that the distance should be cut down further so that when accidents occur, or offences are committed, the Guards will be able to reach the scene more speedily than they are able to do at present.

In recent times there has been a great spate of oratory—very many books have been written on the subject as well—on the increase that is observable in juvenile delinquency. When we think of what a huge problem that is, and how much has been said and written on the subject, it is a matter of surprise to me that so little has been said about it in this debate. I do not think we can be too proud of ourselves on that point. It is my opinion that it is not the juveniles who are always the delinquents but rather their fathers, and their mothers to a certain extent, who seem to have failed completely in exercising any sort of corrective control over their children. One point that strikes me is that in the case of juvenile delinquents it is the fathers who should appear before the court. Usually, it is the mothers who appear. I think the district justice should insist on the fathers appearing before him because I think that would help to instil some sense of responsibility into the fathers as to the control they should exercise over their children. There is a definite lack of parental control at the present time. With reference to that, I think the Church has failed to some extent. During my 35 years I have listened to many sermons but I have never heard one sermon dealing with the lack of parental control or the necessity for a greater degree of responsibility on the part of parents in relation to the behaviour of their children. In conclusion, I appeal to the Minister to consider those young men who entered the Taca Síochána when the call went forth. They were, as we know, recruited in a temporary capacity. They did wonderful work and to a certain extent they have been absorbed into the regular police force now. But I think I am right in saying that their service in the Taca Síochána is not taken into consideration for pension purposes. I ask the Minister to accord them the same treatment as is given to the members of the regular police force.

General MacEoin

I am grateful for the manner in which this Vote has been taken. The debate travelled over a fairly wide field. Most of it was directed to matters of detail rather than to any fundamental criticism of me or my Department.

Generally speaking, I think the best answer I can make in reply to most of the points raised is to state that the law will be strictly, rigorously and impartially enforced during the coming year as it has been in the past. There will be no relaxation.

Some points were raised as to recruiting, transfers and the housing conditions of the Garda Síochána. I am very concerned with these problems. The hold-up in recruiting is temporary though, as I have said in reply to the former Minister, Deputy Boland, I assume that we are now approaching normal conditions and the number of Guards sufficient in 1939 should be sufficient now. Roughly we have 200 more now than we had in 1939. I hope they will not pass away too quickly, or anything like that. I wish them all long lives and I hope that we shall have the same number this time next year. If any crucial situation arises, it will not develop with such rapidity as to prevent us at any time bringing the police force up to whatever strength may be required.

With regard to hackney-car licences, the law is quite clear. I would have to amend the law before I could stop the development about which some Deputies have complained. I have all the sympathy in the world with the people who are being damaged in their livelihood, but until the law is amended, it must be administered as it stands. The conditions are laid down and any person who is refused a licence can appeal to the court and, if all the conditions are complied with, have that decision reversed.

The payment of jurors is an important question. The matter is being actively examined. Another important point under consideration in this connection is the extension of the jurors, but that is not a very easy matter to undertake right away.

With regard to registration of title and probate matters generally, I agree that we are slower than we should be. I referred to that in my opening statement. We have not made the headway I would like for the reasons I have stated but, this time next year, I hope the situation will be rectified.

In answer to a Parliamentary Question, I have already expressed my regret that I have not been able to bring the matter of the District Court clerks to a conclusion before this. I am moving as rapidly as I can and I hope to have a decision soon. I cannot say definitely when but, as this matter has gone on for a very long time, another few months will not make any appreciable difference one way or the other.

The taking of depositions is very important. It was thought that a shorthand-note could be used in substitution for the present longhand note but, on examination, it was found that the latter did not speed up the taking of the depositions at all. Deputies are aware that the deposition has to be read back to the person who makes it. A rather important point in connection with the taking of the deposition in longhand is the fact that the interests of the accused person are thereby better protected. We are trying to do something to lessen the need for depositions. The whole matter is under examination at the moment but it is not one that can be determined very easily.

Major de Valera

Could a dictaphone be used? It would talk back, and do the work more efficiently.

General MacEoin

I suppose a dictaphone could be used, but suppose anything happened to the dictaphone! I will have the matter examined but I will not undertake to use a dictaphone or anything else until I have a complete report.

Many diverse points have been raised. I think the best thing I can do is to have these examined in the Department. Some comments were made about traffic. That really belongs to Local Government. It is not my responsibility. The Commissioner is an instrument of the Department of Local Government in that respect. Although I am responsible for his Vote, I would like to stress that my control is very slight. That brings me now to the transfer of Guards and the general control over the Garda Síochána. Last year I drew the attention of everybody concerned to the fact that the Commissioner has sole responsibility for the administration of the Garda Síochána. He has that by statute. He is a statutory authority.

Notwithstanding that, people will persist in addressing the Minister as if he were the Commissioner. I want to stress that discipline must be maintained. The Commissioner is responsible for discipline, administration, transfers and everything else. People who interfere, or try to interfere, on behalf of the Gardaí only do harm because the Commissioner must, in the interests of the Guards themselves, take a serious view of any representations made to him. I trust that will relieve me of the necessity of ever again having to state that I cannot do anything. I know that some people do not believe me when I tell them that. But they must accept that. If there was any change made, it would not be to the interests of the Guards or anybody else.

I agree that housing in relation to the Guards presents a difficulty, but it is one that is not easily solved, because in the past when there were houses for police officers and others, the men were inclined when they resigned to stay in them and so you had to keep building whenever men went out in the past even when there was accommodation. However, I am impressed by the views expressed here that houses should be made available for the Guards, because it would assist the Commissioner.

Mr. G. Boland

Was there any move made yet in that direction?

General MacEoin

Yes, but not quite as much as I would like. I find, however, that housing is not the biggest difficulty. The greatest difficulty arising from the transfer of Guards is schools for the children, and they want to be near the best school in the place. It does not matter how good may be the house to which you are transferring them; if it is not near a good school, it is a hardship. That is one of the influences.

The points raised were many, and I do not think any good purpose would be served by running through them or replying to them here and now. I assure Deputies that I will examine each and every one of them in detail, and, as far as possible, give effect to the various points raised, where they are for better administration and for the good of the country as a whole.

Motion to refer back, by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.